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Thoughts on Olympus XA/ Mju/ Mju II ?
Old 02-22-2017   #1
jrose125
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Thoughts on Olympus XA/ Mju/ Mju II ?

Hey folks! I've been looking for a pocketable, sharp, fixed lens camera for a little while and I've sort of narrowed it down to these three, basically due to their sharp lenses and clamshell design.

I'm leaning more towards the XA due to it's rangefinder but other than that, I dont' really have much of a clue about them. Any thoughts, opinions, and suggestions on these cameras? I'm also open to suggestions for other cameras but keep in mind, I'm not really looking for something over $150 USD. Thanks!
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Old 02-22-2017   #2
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The XA is a great camera. It's a tiny RF, it has a lens with some character, and makes great pictures. The MJU/II AKA Stylus AKA Stylus Epic are also fantastic! You know the little AF P&S cameras are all not really that different. Of course the Oly doesn't let you change settings other than flash, but IMO that's all you really need in a camera like this.

Either of these should be FAR less than $150 bucks.
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Old 02-22-2017   #3
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I second the XA, I'm always impressed with the images I get with it.

I see you have a Rollei 35, I'd be inclined to use that one.
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Old 02-22-2017   #4
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I have owned all three and preferred the XA. The Stylus were fine but I did not like the shape as well as the boxier XA. And the XA has (for me) the big advantage of not having a flash.
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Old 02-22-2017   #5
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You already have it - Rollei 35 (40mm Tessar f/3.5).
IMO, three you have mentioned have too much electronics to be reliable at their age now.
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Old 02-22-2017   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moto Mark View Post
I second the XA, I'm always impressed with the images I get with it.

I see you have a Rollei 35, I'd be inclined to use that one.
I enjoy my Rollei but I'm not entirely comfortable with zone focusing.
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Old 02-22-2017   #7
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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
You already have it - Rollei 35 (40mm Tessar f/3.5).
IMO, three you have mentioned have too much electronics to be reliable at their age now.
The Rollei is indeed a great camera but I'm not a fan of zone focusing. Maybe it will grow on me but at this point, it's not something I'm comfortable with.
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Old 02-22-2017   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbiemer View Post
I have owned all three and preferred the XA. The Stylus were fine but I did not like the shape as well as the boxier XA. And the XA has (for me) the big advantage of not having a flash.
Thanks for the perspective!
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Old 02-22-2017   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaveKodak View Post
The XA is a great camera. It's a tiny RF, it has a lens with some character, and makes great pictures. The MJU/II AKA Stylus AKA Stylus Epic are also fantastic! You know the little AF P&S cameras are all not really that different. Of course the Oly doesn't let you change settings other than flash, but IMO that's all you really need in a camera like this.

Either of these should be FAR less than $150 bucks.
I almost bought a mint XA with box,manuals, A16 flash for $160 a month ago but at that point, I was still on the fence on whether or not I needed such a camera.
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Old 02-22-2017   #10
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I've owned an XA for years. Very easy to get along with. Lens is decent; for the money it's one of the best.

You should be able to get a good one for $30US if you're patient.
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Old 02-22-2017   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benlees View Post
I've owned an XA for years. Very easy to get along with. Lens is decent; for the money it's one of the best.

You should be able to get a good one for $30US if you're patient.
Where could I get one that cheap... FleaBay? I haven't seen one under $100 lately
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Old 02-22-2017   #12
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Definitely no Fleabay... BIN prices are ludicrous for most things. I was thinking of here, hence the "be patient" part. They come up every couple of months around that price.

Also, by "good" I mean well used but 100% functional. No box, some scratches on the body, etc. If you want "mint" then...
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Old 02-22-2017   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benlees View Post
Definitely no Fleabay... BIN prices are ludicrous for most things. I was thinking of here, hence the "be patient" part. They come up every couple of months around that price.

Also, by "good" I mean well used but 100% functional. No box, some scratches on the body, etc. If you want "mint" then...
Mint would be nice but I'm probably just going to go for a user. I'd rather not have a camera that I'm afraid to put to use.
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Old 02-22-2017   #14
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Never had the XA, i had the XA2 and i did not like it due to the amount of vigneting the lens had.

Between the other two, judging on the price they fetch, i would get a Mju, the II is getting ridiculous expensive nowadays. Lens-wise the Nikon L35AF has been a fantastic camera for me (and accepts lens hood) although is a bit bigger than the rest.

Have a read on my blog, i have reviews and comparisons between these cameras.
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Old 02-22-2017   #15
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Mju:I is way underrated and can be found for $5-20.
Here's a recent one I took on Portra 160 film:

Untitled by Mattia Marchi, on Flickr
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Old 02-22-2017   #16
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I have both the mju's.
I think the AF is better (faster, more accurate) on the II and it is sharper and the body is smaller. I think these points are generally uncontested, but all these factors are incremental. The viewfinder and egronomics on the I are btter IMHO.

I haven't used an Xa (only xa2) but I guess the main difference is no flash, manual Dx and manual focus.
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Old 02-23-2017   #17
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Hi,

I've owned all three and still have two of them; I sold the µ-II to raise some cash towards a CZ Planar for the M9.

The XA is nice and there are still people around who can repair them, you can leave the flash at home and so on but it is a RF and they are a bit fragile to carry in the pocket. My first one, when they were new, got an expensive knock and put me off them for everyday use.

There's little to chose between the µ-I and µ-II apart from the size and spot metering. In theory the lens is faster on the II and the spot metering is useful but in practice I've never seen any difference at the print or slide stage of using them.

Both the XA and µ-II can be used against the light with the XA's +1½ EV switch and the µ-II spot metering doing the trick but the µ-I does fill-in flash and that works as well. That's assuming you mainly do the usual wife/GF with sun lighting up her hair shot...

There's lots of other AF small P&S's with some useful controls/overrides like the Leica minis and their family, the Pentax, Konica and Minoltas also come to mind. And there's the bigger Canon and Nikon and so on P&S's with RF's and AF built in. (But some have battery problems, meaning designed for mercury batteries; f'instance the excellent Konica C35 RF.)

EDIT; a minor but important point is that all of them will be elderly second-hand camers and so it's best not to pay too much and do a thorough film test. My µ-I got five stars in my tests and so did the Konica A$, C35 AF and Leica mini 3; the list could be longer but I have only graded cameras I currently have...

If you are patient you can usually pick them all up dirt cheap as small film cameras are often undervalued off of auction sites.

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Old 02-23-2017   #18
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I have the XA and the Mju II. Both are great but there are also a few drawbacks with each, making it a bit harder to recommend either unequivocally.

Of the two I prefer the XA in almost every way. It's a very well designed camera that manages to be very nice to shoot and it offers a lot of control despite the size. However the lens isn't quite up to the standard of the rest of the camera and I find myself unimpressed by the output a bit too often.

The Mju II on the other hand is a lot more impressive optically but offers a very detached shooting experience. There's very little you can do to influence automation.

So picking one depends on which parameters you find more important – IQ, handling, control etc.

I've written a bit on both cameras on my site. Might be helpful?
Olympus XA review
Olympus Mju II First impressions
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Old 02-23-2017   #19
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I loved the shots I got with the XA but personally, I didn't get along with it. Wrote up a review of my experience with it here
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Old 02-23-2017   #20
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Mju II for the fast autofocus and lens. I have several other premium compacts (GR1v, Fuji Mini 28mm, Fuji Klasse) and the mju-ii is the one I know that I can take anywhere and doesn't mind being carelessly carried in a pocket or used in the rain.
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Old 02-23-2017   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrose125 View Post
The Rollei is indeed a great camera but I'm not a fan of zone focusing. Maybe it will grow on me but at this point, it's not something I'm comfortable with.
Practice. I enjoy zone focusing as it slows me down to think about the shot more. I had an XA but didn't really care for it as the rangefinder patch was fairly hard to see. In that type of camera I prefer the XA2/XA3/XA4 as a quick point, zone focus and shoot. An XA2 is a good introduction to zone focus as it only has three focus distances.

I prefer my Rollei 35S to them though, nicer viewfinder, great lens and just a little jewel to use.

If you are shooting in daylight you will have plenty of DOF so you don't have to be perfect in zone focusing. Learn to figure range by estimating about how many steps away (or arm lengths) away something is and build from there. It becomes pretty quick and easy after awhile. Err on setting the lens slightly to close instead of slightly too far.

Have fun,

Shawn
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Old 02-23-2017   #22
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Are any of the zoom versions of this series any good? I frequently see them for sale in thrift stores around here but have never tried one. Are all the zoom compacts pretty mediocre?
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Old 02-23-2017   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrose125 View Post
The Rollei is indeed a great camera but I'm not a fan of zone focusing. Maybe it will grow on me but at this point, it's not something I'm comfortable with.
With XA you'll face exactly same zone focusing. I've had XA as every day, pocket camera and it lasts for year and half before it completely crapped out. But hundreds of images were taken. RF patch in it isn't something which is quick and easy to use.
Honestly, if you want AF and toss into the pocket camera, get regular 5 CAD Value Village film P&S. Fast AF and fine IQ.
Like one of these - https://get.google.com/albumarchive/...2X6kmrJUHIcH6E
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Old 02-23-2017   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
With XA you'll face exactly same zone focusing. RF patch in it isn't something which is quick and easy to use.
This has been my experience with the XA. Zone focusing takes practice.

Zone focusing:


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Old 02-23-2017   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn View Post
I prefer my Rollei 35S to them though, nicer viewfinder, great lens and just a little jewel to use.
Same here with regards to the XA versus the Rollei 35S. The Sonnar lens alone is worth more than both cameras together. Plus, I do like the fact that I am choosing the aperture setting and shutter speeds. It's a great camera for outdoor work.

The whole point of shooting 35mm with an Olympus XA, XA2 or Stylus is that not only are they super compact - but they are inexpensive!

The Rollei 35 is definitely slower to shoot with. Its light meter has a limited range - which is only from a moderately lit room to full sunlight -and - the meter was designed to use a mercury cell. Not a total waste of camera if the meter goes tits up, because other than the meter, the Rollei is fully mechanical.

(Note that I use a Criscam battery adapter that probably cost more than an Olympus Stylus purchased in thrift store.)

I will say this: my XA has the edge as a street shoot. My usual operation mode for the XA in good light is to open the camera, set the focus without the rangefinder, wind the film and shoot.

While I've never used the accessory flash with an XA - at night for outdoor street scenes and indoors for dimly lit rooms - I have placed the camera on a stationary object, set the self-timer and let her rip with fingers crossed, waiting to hear that second click. (Note that you can forget using the rangefinder in a dark environment - just guess the distance and set the focus accordingly.)
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Old 02-23-2017   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perks View Post
...

I haven't used an Xa (only xa2) but I guess the main difference is no flash, manual Dx and manual focus.
I don't know if you were talking about the XA2, but the XA does have three flashes. The mount on the side and are not integral, so there is a space saving. The XA is a rangefinder camera.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn View Post
Practice. I enjoy zone focusing as it slows me down to think about the shot more. I had an XA but didn't really care for it as the rangefinder patch was fairly hard to see.
...

Have fun,

Shawn
Zone focusing is possible as much as on any camera, and there are settings on the aperture scale and distance scale, but that isn't usually what we call zone focusing.

As to the rangefinder patch, that has been said many times. When I first got mine off ebay, I thought my had the same problem. Then I discovered that I just had to be careful where I placed my eye. With mine I had to put my eye more to the left. That allowed me to see both the RF and the shutter speed scale.

As an aside, when I got my and put the battery in it, it didn't work. I thought about it for a bit, and decided to hope it was a small condenser (EDIT: capacitor; for some reason I can never remember that) that just needed reforming. Apparently if was. After setting it aside a while, it began working and has continued to do so for the some 5 or 6 years I have had it.

I love the size for carrying around. To me the lens is fairly good. I enjoy the extra scene covering of the 35mm lens. Others as you have seen above have other opinions.
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Old 02-23-2017   #27
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Originally Posted by oftheherd View Post
Zone focusing is possible as much as on any camera, and there are settings on the aperture scale and distance scale, but that isn't usually what we call zone focusing.
True, but the XA2/3/4 were built for zone focusing the XA wasn't. There is a difference in usage. I've owned all of them. On the XA when you open the clamshell you don't know where the camera is focused, it could be anywhere. Even after you set the focus it is easy to change it accidentally.

When you open the clamshell on the XA2/3/4 you already know where the camera is focused as it resets it when you close the clamshell. For quick shots the camera will already be set for about 9' away. Click up to move in to around 4' or go down for distance. (XA4 has two additional close in settings)

It makes the cameras very quick to use and works surprising well.

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Old 02-23-2017   #28
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XA3 has a backlight compensation feature which is very useful.
The XA3 and MJU2 are my choice.
With the MJU2 One can set the exposure to "spot" and gain more control of exposure.
The lens is sharp and focusses accurately when one learns how to use it.
The scale focus of the XA3 is as easy as scale focus gets.

More subjectively...
I used several XA2's for years but eventually they just stopped working properly. The XA1 is probably even less reliable.
The XA3 seems to be in the game still. I'm using mine for a dozen rolls or so a year... nice thing.
Two mju2's are still going strong. A couple dozen rolls a year and still doing great.
The mju2 is a fun "hipshot" camera and the flash actually works great (including in close metering).

These are great pocketable film cams. I've tried many and come back to the simplicity of the Olympus.

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XA3 and across.
Southworth Run 8-30-2014 1 by Adnan, on Flickr

MJU2 and Tri-x
Mr. Moustache by Adnan, on Flickr

mju2 and hp5
A pointed Tale. (and tail) by Adnan, on Flickr
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Old 02-23-2017   #29
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No one has yet asked the original poster the obvious question of what type of photography he plans to use the camera for. The three cameras he mentions, the XA, Stylus and Stylus Epic have typically been used as "carry it with me when I leave my more serious cameras at home" cameras. There are a couple points to bear in mind when using them this way. If they are used with 400 speed film (the typical all purpose speed) and are used in daylight, the maximum shutter speed will be factor. The XA and Stylus (and the rollei 35 models for that matter) all have a max shutter speed of 1/500th of a second. Daylight, 400 speed film and 1/500th are going to give you apertures around f8-f16. The maximum aperture won't matter much, so having the control over it, as with the XA, is moot point. In addition to this, just about any point and shoot with a prime lens is going to give good results with apertures in this range.

Indoors, in a room with lots of window light on a sunny day, with 400 speed film, you'll be running into the opposite issue. Even at f2.8, the shutter speed will be around 1/30-1/60. This is just fast enough to hand hold with steady hands, but if your subject moves, its not fast enough to get an un-blured image. You will generally need flash. The flash attachments or built in flashes on these cameras will give give you pretty unnatural light. I haven't found a solution to this issue when using a P&S camera. Putting these cameras on a tripod sort of defeats their purpose of being portable and easy to carry with you.

All of this is to say that the difference between a f2.8 and a f3.5 maximum aperture on these cameras is of limited value as it only comes into play in limited situations. The maximum shutter speed is probably a more important factor. The Stylus Epic at least has a 1/1000th max shutter speed.

When it comes to cost, you can haunt garage sales and thrift stores if there are any in your area and eventually you may find one of these for a few dollars. If you like to haunt these places, its worth looking. You also might find a far nicer equipment for bargain prices. I'm one of those people who like to go hunting to see what I find. I know a number of people who consider it a waste of their time. In the last 10-12 years, I've come across 3 XAs, 4 Stylus Epics and 2 Stylus' for less than $5 each, but I will stop at a couple thrift stores and/or garage/estate sales every week. If you have other uses for your time, it might be better to buy from an online source that will charge more. I think there is a greater number of online re-sellers picking up film cameras at thrift stores and garage sales than there were a few years ago. There's enough demand online to make it worth their while, so there are not as many available for the casual buyer as there where in the past.

Another poster commented that these cameras are getting too old for the electronics to be dependable. I wouldn't agree with this statement. I have dozens of electronically controlled cameras some of which are 40+ years old that still work fine. They may die suddenly, but what does it matter? I don't use them for work and if I'm suddenly without a camera when out on a walk, it really doesn't matter. When I take photographs for work, I use a current DSLR.

There are an awful lot of myths about cheap cameras that will give you the same results that a camera costing several thousands of dollars will on the web. I've tried a great many of these cameras just for fun of it. None of results from them comes close to the results and flexibility obtained with a professional system. That doesn't mean that they aren't fun to use at times.
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Old 02-23-2017   #30
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Wow seems that prices have gone up. A few years back I could pick them up at Thrifts for about $7. The images were excellent but the cameras fell apart.
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Old 02-23-2017   #31
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Not as small as the XA, but in point and shoot cameras. the Canonet QL III 17 and 19 (at least the small versions of them) are also good. They probably have a little better lens as well, but my XA has done well by me. But I don't think they are exactly what the OP is asking for. I don't know what they sell for. I got my 17 of ebay and don't recall what I paid for it, but not too much. the 19 I got at a thrift store and I think I paid $10 or $15 for it with a case.
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Old 02-23-2017   #32
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Originally Posted by TEZillman View Post
No one has yet asked the original poster the obvious question of what type of photography he plans to use the camera for. The three cameras he mentions, the XA, Stylus and Stylus Epic have typically been used as "carry it with me when I leave my more serious cameras at home" cameras. There are a couple points to bear in mind when using them this way. If they are used with 400 speed film (the typical all purpose speed) and are used in daylight, the maximum shutter speed will be factor. The XA and Stylus (and the rollei 35 models for that matter) all have a max shutter speed of 1/500th of a second. Daylight, 400 speed film and 1/500th are going to give you apertures around f8-f16. The maximum aperture won't matter much, so having the control over it, as with the XA, is moot point. In addition to this, just about any point and shoot with a prime lens is going to give good results with apertures in this range.

Indoors, in a room with lots of window light on a sunny day, with 400 speed film, you'll be running into the opposite issue. Even at f2.8, the shutter speed will be around 1/30-1/60. This is just fast enough to hand hold with steady hands, but if your subject moves, its not fast enough to get an un-blured image. You will generally need flash. The flash attachments or built in flashes on these cameras will give give you pretty unnatural light. I haven't found a solution to this issue when using a P&S camera. Putting these cameras on a tripod sort of defeats their purpose of being portable and easy to carry with you.

All of this is to say that the difference between a f2.8 and a f3.5 maximum aperture on these cameras is of limited value as it only comes into play in limited situations. The maximum shutter speed is probably a more important factor. The Stylus Epic at least has a 1/1000th max shutter speed.

When it comes to cost, you can haunt garage sales and thrift stores if there are any in your area and eventually you may find one of these for a few dollars. If you like to haunt these places, its worth looking. You also might find a far nicer equipment for bargain prices. I'm one of those people who like to go hunting to see what I find. I know a number of people who consider it a waste of their time. In the last 10-12 years, I've come across 3 XAs, 4 Stylus Epics and 2 Stylus' for less than $5 each, but I will stop at a couple thrift stores and/or garage/estate sales every week. If you have other uses for your time, it might be better to buy from an online source that will charge more. I think there is a greater number of online re-sellers picking up film cameras at thrift stores and garage sales than there were a few years ago. There's enough demand online to make it worth their while, so there are not as many available for the casual buyer as there where in the past.

Another poster commented that these cameras are getting too old for the electronics to be dependable. I wouldn't agree with this statement. I have dozens of electronically controlled cameras some of which are 40+ years old that still work fine. They may die suddenly, but what does it matter? I don't use them for work and if I'm suddenly without a camera when out on a walk, it really doesn't matter. When I take photographs for work, I use a current DSLR.

There are an awful lot of myths about cheap cameras that will give you the same results that a camera costing several thousands of dollars will on the web. I've tried a great many of these cameras just for fun of it. None of results from them comes close to the results and flexibility obtained with a professional system. That doesn't mean that they aren't fun to use at times.
Good question to ask. The main reason I'm looking for one of these cameras in particular is the clamshell design. I want to be able to throw this camera in a bag or my pocket without worrying about scratching the lens. By that, I mean that I'm looking for a very pocketable camera to take on trips with me. For example, I'm travelling to Cuba in a month with some good friends and more or less just want a worthy companion to take some snapshots of my trip.

The Stylus Epic (Mju II) would be nice for the reasons you mentioned but I'm leaning towards the Infinity Stylus now, mainly due to the price. I have the chance to get one in fantastic condition for $60 USD shipped and am really thinking about doing it. I wanted the XA purely for the rangefinder and the feedback has definitely discouraged me from going for it. After all, I'm used to the rangefinder in my M3 so moving to an XA might be a bit of a shock...
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Old 02-23-2017   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oftheherd View Post
Not as small as the XA, but in point and shoot cameras. the Canonet QL III 17 and 19 (at least the small versions of them) are also good. They probably have a little better lens as well, but my XA has done well by me. But I don't think they are exactly what the OP is asking for. I don't know what they sell for. I got my 17 of ebay and don't recall what I paid for it, but not too much. the 19 I got at a thrift store and I think I paid $10 or $15 for it with a case.
I had a Canonet for awhile but ended up giving it to a friend that was showing some interest in film photography. It is a solid choice for compact rangefinders but you're right, not exactly what I'm looking for. I'm particularly after the XA/Mju/MjuII for the clamshell design, allowing me to easily slip the camera in and out of my pocket.
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Old 02-23-2017   #34
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Wow seems that prices have gone up. A few years back I could pick them up at Thrifts for about $7. The images were excellent but the cameras fell apart.
Definitely. Interest in Analog formats have shot sky high in recent years. 4 years ago my local camera store was selling film of all formats dirt cheap and now a roll of HP5 is almost $8. Supply and demand is the name of the game, I suppose.
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Old 02-23-2017   #35
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I loved the shots I got with the XA but personally, I didn't get along with it. Wrote up a review of my experience with it here
Just read your post. Thanks for the link!
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Old 02-23-2017   #36
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Originally Posted by jrose125 View Post
I want to be able to throw this camera in a bag or my pocket without worrying about scratching the lens...... After all, I'm used to the rangefinder in my M3 so moving to an XA might be a bit of a shock...
Left field suggestion based on your meter less Leica..... Kodak Retina IIa. Folding design means the lens will be well protected and it will just fit in a shirt pocket. A bit heavy for that though. Fits fine in a pants pockets. I keep one of mine in a Think Thank Modular pouch on my belt. Very good f2 lens and a much better rangefinder than an XA. The earlier Retina's are even smaller but scale focus. Price is all over the place but watch for deals.

Being old they might need service. If you are handy they are pretty easy to work on, there are good directions available. Most any repair place should be able to handle them as they use standard shutters. I've cleaned and realigned the rangefinders in both of mine and also services the shutter in one.

The earlier Retina's seems to require less service IME.

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Old 02-23-2017   #37
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Given those choices, easily the XA. Compact with a nice lens, rangefinder focus, flash if you want it, exposure compensation, it has it all. I find the other cameras are nice, but they are a bit too automatic. The only problem is finding a working one, but with your $150 budget, that shouldn't be a problem.

Edit: I'll also add that aside from the XA, there are many cameras out there which offer most of the features of the XA which are compact and useful especially with $150 at the upper end. Some reasonable alternatives include the Minox 35GT, Retina or other similar folders. Or depending on what you're trying to accomplish (e.g. anything but slides, normal field of view), a 6x4.5 folder with accessory rangefinder can be quite a compact combination which still delivers a lot of quality at a small price. It just depends on how much automation you require.
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Old 02-23-2017   #38
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Mju ii/Stylus Epic is the only one of the three with some weather protection. Also for precise focussing, use spot mode as the multi point focussing can be fooled by some subjects. The Mju I is a great camera also, and can be had cheaper. I own both and prefer the lens of the Mju ii and the ergonomics of the Mju I. The Mju ii has a bit of a hair trigger in comparison and is prone to the odd accidental shot. There is no wrong choice here but my money would be on the Mju ii if only for its weather proofing. Good luck in finding a good one whichever model you choose.
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Old 02-23-2017   #39
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I've had three Stylus Epics, they all broke. Two were shutter button related, the other was the winder that just stopped working. Although, I killed one of the shutter ones myself by trying to fix the half press focus that wasn't working properly... I would buy another, but the prices are more than I want to pay now.

I still have an XA that works ok. The patch is tiny and hard to see so it's not much fun to use.

Between the two, I prefer the Stylus Epic/Mju II. The focus was quick and I like lens better..or at least the photos that I took with it looked better to me. I also liked that I could walk around on rainy days with the Stylus without worrying about it.

These days I prefer my Rollei SE over either of them. It's not as fast to use, and it's zone focus, but it's more fun overall.
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Old 02-23-2017   #40
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Anybody have experience with a Konica Big Mini?
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