Old 06-06-2016   #81
David Hughes
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Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
(bolded) Luxury is not at odds with simplicity. Excess is at odds with simplicity.

Be that as it may ... ... every time I pick up my M-P now I wish it was the M-D. Because every time I pick up the M-P, I realize that my grip almost without fail puts a finger print on the LCD or viewfinder. The SL is not like that, and neither is the M4-2. It's a matter of handling ease. Sigh.

G
Hi,

Surely, luxury is something added to simplicity? I can take notes with a pencil from a cheap chain store or with a gold mechanical pencil and I reckon I know which is simplicity and which is luxury...

But, OTOH, it would be nice to pick up the M-9 without having to stop and think and remember that the top RH corner is the only place for my fingers and thumb - or I could pick it up by the lens barrel I suppose...

Regards, David
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Old 06-06-2016   #82
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Originally Posted by Larry Cloetta View Post
Okay.

But, back to the subject of simplification and whether or not it has anything to do with how much your limited items of equipment cost---

It still doesn't.

From the OED:
Simplify:
1. verb trans. Make into a single form or structure; unify.
2. a verb trans. Make simple or less complex or elaborate; make easy or more understandable. b. verb intrans. Become (more) simple.


That's it, that's all that's in there. That's the definition of simplify. Nothing in there about cost. Simplicity has to do with complexity not cost, that's all I was saying.

Words have meanings. If people want to make up their own meanings, or argue with the OED, I guess that's their business, but it's a slippery slope.
I'll stick with the definition of the word "simplify", personally. I'm just that way.
Who is arguing over what simplify means? You may have noticed there's more than one word in the OP, Dave specifically describes a nomadic lifestyle of few possessions. The "simple life" has as many definitions as there are people to live it.

For the average person, a free, untethered lifestyle as described is also one of economic precarity and general unpredictability. Unless one is independently wealthy or very comfortably retired then it obviously does not make much sense to tie up so much liquidity in something like an M-A.
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Old 06-06-2016   #83
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Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
Hi,

Surely, luxury is something added to simplicity? I can take notes with a pencil from a cheap chain store or with a gold mechanical pencil and I reckon I know which is simplicity and which is luxury...

But, OTOH, it would be nice to pick up the M-9 without having to stop and think and remember that the top RH corner is the only place for my fingers and thumb - or I could pick it up by the lens barrel I suppose...

Regards, David
A wooden pencil and a gold mechanical pencil are both simple tools with which to write a note.
  • The wooden pencil is complex in that you need to also carry something with which to sharpen its point; a penknife or sharpener. Of course, you also have to understand the system required to produce wooden pencils to fully appreciate their simplicity/complexity.
  • The gold mechanical pencil is complex in the design and construction of its mechanism, but allows simple use in that you use its mechanism to extend the lead as it wears. The fact that it has a gold skin neither adds nor subtracts from the simplicity or the complexity, although it adds to the price.

It's important to segregate these notions clearly if you want to carry on a philosophic-semantic discussion of "what is simplicity?"

... Yes, that is what I miss the most in my M-P (or once-was M9) compared to the M4-2: the ease of picking it up and using it without laying fingerprints on the viewfinder or LCD, or hitting buttons I didn't intend to. That's why I just might sell the M-P and buy the M-D. ...

G
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Old 06-06-2016   #84
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Originally Posted by nongfuspring View Post
Who is arguing over what simplify means? You may have noticed there's more than one word in the OP, ....
No I didn't notice that. But thanks for the help. Plus, now that I know there are as many definitions for things as there are people to dream them up, I feel very liberated. Think I will take my cheap camera out today instead of the expensive one, because it's simpler. Because it's cheaper. Because there is a relationship between simplicity and cost, as I just learned. Who knew?
Done here.
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Old 06-06-2016   #85
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Nah, Larry, stick around for the final decision on which Leica is enough!! We haven't even gotten to the bucket list!

Speaking of which... I am getting close to a decision that surprises even me.
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Old 06-06-2016   #86
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No digital is a lifetime purchase. If you think you can keep getting film/processing, a modern Leica will be a good bet.

Or spend the rest of your life scrounging for deals because yours can no longer be repaired.
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Old 06-06-2016   #87
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Originally Posted by Ronald M View Post
No digital is a lifetime purchase. If you think you can keep getting film/processing, a modern Leica will be a good bet.

Or spend the rest of your life scrounging for deals because yours can no longer be repaired.
Minor edit:

No camera is a lifetime purchase. Any modern Leica will be a good bet.
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Old 06-06-2016   #88
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Originally Posted by Ronald M View Post
No digital is a lifetime purchase. If you think you can keep getting film/processing, a modern Leica will be a good bet.

Or spend the rest of your life scrounging for deals because yours can no longer be repaired.
Interesting term "lifetime"... for me, it no longer has a real meaning whereas when I was in my thirties, it seemed about 50 years on average. Now... it could be a week, a year, or ten years.

Hence the bucket list!

Anyone reading this thread have a bucket list?

Is there a Leica on yours? Or something else?
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Old 06-06-2016   #89
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Originally Posted by Larry Cloetta View Post
No I didn't notice that. But thanks for the help. Plus, now that I know there are as many definitions for things as there are people to dream them up, I feel very liberated. Think I will take my cheap camera out today instead of the expensive one, because it's simpler. Because it's cheaper. Because there is a relationship between simplicity and cost, as I just learned. Who knew?
Done here.
Seems your reading comprehension is on par with your attitude, which wouldn't surprise me considering your interpretation of Walden (providing you actually read it). Enjoy living day to day!
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Old 06-06-2016   #90
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[quote=dave lackey;2620422]Interesting term "lifetime"... for me, it no longer has a real meaning whereas when I was in my thirties, it seemed about 50 years on average. Now... it could be a week, a year, or ten years.QUOTE]

I think my M262 will get me a good ways down the road in terms of my own "lifetime", currently 54 and feeling more broken down all the time.

For a digital body with no live view or video features to worry about needing to be updated and a nice 24MP sensor like this M262, one should (and I do) expect at least 10 years.
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Old 06-06-2016   #91
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Originally Posted by Ronald M View Post
No digital is a lifetime purchase. If you think you can keep getting film/processing, a modern Leica will be a good bet.

Or spend the rest of your life scrounging for deals because yours can no longer be repaired.
I agree about the film camera! Film no problem, developing and scanning my own. Actually, as far as digital goes, I really have no need with the two I have and use frequently.

So, film it is!
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Old 06-06-2016   #92
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...
So, film it is!
If it is film...hmm I love so much to shoot with my M7 ...but I never owned any other M...

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Old 06-06-2016   #93
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Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
A wooden pencil and a gold mechanical pencil are both simple tools with which to write a note.
  • The wooden pencil is complex in that you need to also carry something with which to sharpen its point; a penknife or sharpener. Of course, you also have to understand the system required to produce wooden pencils to fully appreciate their simplicity/complexity.
  • The gold mechanical pencil is complex in the design and construction of its mechanism, but allows simple use in that you use its mechanism to extend the lead as it wears. The fact that it has a gold skin neither adds nor subtracts from the simplicity or the complexity, although it adds to the price.
It's important to segregate these notions clearly if you want to carry on a philosophic-semantic discussion of "what is simplicity?"

... Yes, that is what I miss the most in my M-P (or once-was M9) compared to the M4-2: the ease of picking it up and using it without laying fingerprints on the viewfinder or LCD, or hitting buttons I didn't intend to. That's why I just might sell the M-P and buy the M-D. ...

G
Hi,

Strange as it may seem I quoted the example of the pencil as I gave up today and threw the mechanical marvel into the bin. It had been playing up for a while (feed mechanism) and I expect pencils to be reliable. An old fashioned wooden one only has the lead to break...

As for their design and manufacture; I gave up designing and making my own pencils years ago. ;-) After learning that acquiring either sort is simple, choose, hand over cash and walk out of the shop.

As for the pick-up factor, do they test the things these days?

Regards, David
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Old 06-06-2016   #94
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David you should maybe go here next time you're in NYC: http://cwpencils.com/
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Old 06-06-2016   #95
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Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
Hi,

Strange as it may seem I quoted the example of the pencil as I gave up today and threw the mechanical marvel into the bin. It had been playing up for a while (feed mechanism) and I expect pencils to be reliable. An old fashioned wooden one only has the lead to break...

As for their design and manufacture; I gave up designing and making my own pencils years ago. ;-) After learning that acquiring either sort is simple, choose, hand over cash and walk out of the shop.

As for the pick-up factor, do they test the things these days?

Regards, David
Um, if you threw a malfunctioning gold mechanical pencil into the bin, could you mail me your bin?

I don't know how camera manufacturers test for human factors these days. Too many cameras are festooned with a couple of dozen buttons in weird places. Leica is better than most in this regard—the SL in particular is incredibly clean*of excess dial-and-button adornments; it's easy to handle as a result.

G
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Old 06-06-2016   #96
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Well, after all the "back and forth" and considerations, I look closer at my mint M6 (Big Logo) and think, this camera does not need to be a shelf queen. It can do what I need, and it is beautiful.


So, for now, the M6 is my choice for simplification of my Leica gear. I am going to keep it! Although my bucket list has a black paint MP on it (or maybe an M-A or MD), that list is always subject to change. Or not.

Now to simplify my Nikon gear... and I think that has already been done but the other cameras don't know it yet....still a secret....

Now that all of that is settled, I can get back to shooting.
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Old 06-06-2016   #97
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Well, after all the "back and forth" and considerations, I look closer at my mint M6 (Big Logo) and think, this camera does not need to be a shelf queen. It can do what I need, and it is beautiful.


So, for now, the M6 is my choice for simplification of my Leica gear. I am going to keep it! Although my bucket list has a black paint MP on it (or maybe an M-A or MD), that list is always subject to change. Or not.

Now to simplify my Nikon gear... and I think that has already been done but the other cameras don't know it yet....still a secret....

Now that all of that is settled, I can get back to shooting.

Was sort of hoping you'd just get an MDa instead
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Old 06-06-2016   #98
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Was sort of hoping you'd just get an MDa instead
. I reckon the M6 is my wooden pencil...
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Old 06-06-2016   #99
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Dave I was wondering how long it would take for you to realize the m6 was the one for you. And as for the nikon gear might I suggest maybe a n6006s body and swap a manual lens or 2 for auto focus. Simple, inexpensive straightforward. Trust me I understand the position you're in as primary caregiver. My sister was that for my father through 5 years of intense cancer care and treatment I was secondary caregiver there when I was off work. As a free piece of advice a simple life begins with your state of mind. The hard part is relearning how to unclutter your mind.perhaps try some zen meditation during your early morning routine.
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Old 06-06-2016   #100
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Dave I was wondering how long it would take for you to realize the m6 was the one for you. And as for the nikon gear might I suggest maybe a n6006s body and swap a manual lens or 2 for auto focus. Simple, inexpensive straightforward. Trust me I understand the position you're in as primary caregiver. My sister was that for my father through 5 years of intense cancer care and treatment I was secondary caregiver there when I was off work. As a free piece of advice a simple life begins with your state of mind. The hard part is relearning how to unclutter your mind.perhaps try some zen meditation during your early morning routine.
Thank you for your kind words, and it is always somewhat fulfilling to meet others who have been down the same road. And yes, meditation is just one of the many things that are part of my daily quiet time. Without that slice of time, I would not be here. It is essential for my contraction and expansion as each day unfolds.

The M6 has been too nice to consider actually using until I went through the discussions of which Leica was good enough. I am quite comfortable with this M body and it is time to make it "mine" by using it a lot. No need to sell and complicate finances any more than necessary. Besides, this Big M6 has great memories attached to it.
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Old 06-07-2016   #101
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David you should maybe go here next time you're in NYC: http://cwpencils.com/
Hi,

I doubt if I'll ever cross the pond but thanks for the sight of that lovely store. One thing I do appreciate about the USA is that a niche selling to just half of one per cent gets a lot of customers and can do the job properly. I just hope the postal people are up to it...

I like pencils and try to use them as often as possible, the collection dates back to the late 30's and includes some weird ones but I started selling them off or giving them away a while ago when I realised most would end up in a skip once my time comes. FWIW, the 30's and 40's ones (even the very basic war time standard ones) were properly made and smell like cigar boxes used to smell of the wood and they are easy to sharpen properly.

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Old 06-07-2016   #102
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Hi,

I doubt if I'll ever cross the pond but thanks for the sight of that lovely store. One thing I do appreciate about the USA is that a niche selling to just half of one per cent gets a lot of customers and can do the job properly. I just hope the postal people are up to it...

I like pencils and try to use them as often as possible, the collection dates back to the late 30's and includes some weird ones but I started selling them off or giving them away a while ago when I realised most would end up in a skip once my time comes. FWIW, the 30's and 40's ones (even the very basic war time standard ones) were properly made and smell like cigar boxes used to smell of the wood and they are easy to sharpen properly.

Regards, David
Pencils!! That is too cool! You are amazing...

I have some new watercolor pencils and mechanical/drafting from a previous life... I can understand your collection. Bravo!
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Old 06-07-2016   #103
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Anyone reading this thread have a bucket list?

Is there a Leica on yours? Or something else?
While I would love to have a Leica body/lens combo, they are just out of my price point.
And a bucket list? Not really. Just to live day to day for as long as I have left with the same woman I have been with for 50 years and to give her as much enjoyment as I can.
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Old 06-07-2016   #104
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Cameras are cool, pencils are cool! Let's use them so much we can

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Old 06-07-2016   #105
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Hi,

What I find interesting is that W H Fox Talbot couldn't draw very well, when a sketch pad and a few pencils were in every tourists kit and so started looking for an alternative. The result was film photography as we know it although I doubt if he'd recognise our modern film as such.

I was at his house earlier this year and was fascinated to see what he used and handle some modern replicas. And I got a chance to take a famous one he did in 1834-ish but with my little toy digital camera.

Perhaps Dave, you'd better abandon the camera and start with an HB pencil and some cartridge paper. It doesn't get simpler...

Regards, David
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Old 06-07-2016   #106
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Hi,

What I find interesting is that W H Fox Talbot couldn't draw very well, when a sketch pad and a few pencils were in every tourists kit and so started looking for an alternative. The result was film photography as we know it although I doubt if he'd recognise our modern film as such.

I was at his house earlier this year and was fascinated to see what he used and handle some modern replicas. And I got a chance to take a famous one he did in 1834-ish but with my little toy digital camera.

Perhaps Dave, you'd better abandon the camera and start with an HB pencil and some cartridge paper. It doesn't get simpler...

Regards, David
Hah... Already doing that. Thanks!
I learned sketching in Architectural school a very long time ago. I am just now sketching again but also I am using a fountain pen regularly.

All of it is relaxing and highly recommended.
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Old 06-07-2016   #107
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I haven't read the full replies yet but a minimalistic way to shoot leica is a plain chrome M4 with a 35 1.4 voigtlander (or any 35 summicron), ev. paired with a vintage hassy SWC.
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Old 06-07-2016   #108
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(bolded) Luxury is not at odds with simplicity. Excess is at odds with simplicity.

G
So i've been wondering, if the same original question could be applied to cars, could you therefore then ask 'which Porsche?'
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Old 06-07-2016   #109
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Hah... Already doing that. Thanks!
I learned sketching in Architectural school a very long time ago. I am just now sketching again but also I am using a fountain pen regularly.

All of it is relaxing and highly recommended.
Amazing, my background too and the reason I've this heap of pencils. Mostly acquired out of curiosity since most of them are rubbish. Same goes for the cameras only there's little rubbish but lots of curiosity and it's easy and cheap to acquire both. Thinking about it I mostly use the cameras as notebooks...

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Old 06-07-2016   #110
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So i've been wondering, if the same original question could be applied to cars, could you therefore then ask 'which Porsche?'
Easy - a 1972 911s in metallic blue.
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Old 06-07-2016   #111
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Why not? So let's make Porsche a requirement for a simple life, just as we did for the Leica.

So now our simple life includes a Leica and a Porsche and is shaping up nicely....

Oh, and we've got great pencils, too.
Yay! I think a simple 912 would work just fine (no need for the excess of a 911). Definitely would go well with a Leica M4 and an Albert Unger Black Diamond
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Old 06-07-2016   #112
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Yay! I think a simple 912 would work just fine (no need for the excess of a 911). Definitely would go well with a Leica M4 and an Albert Unger Black Diamond
Dang, I like the way you guys think! Vince, the 912 is perfect... Think of all the money saved by keeping a 912 on the road for 40 years or more and foregoing new car purchases...

I did that with MG cars from a 51 TD to a 76 B... Six all together but only one at a time.
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Old 06-07-2016   #113
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You know I'm also thinking Dave you might require a travel case of some kind - a simple one, mind you - to transport your simple, uncluttered Leica camera and your very nice (yet oh so simple!) pencil in that Porsche 912 (and a very frugal, minimalist Porsche it is too).

Perhaps a very straightforward, very simple, un-frilly Keepall Bandouliere in the most basic of basics - Monogram Canvas - by Louis Vuitton?
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Old 06-07-2016   #114
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Wow. Back to this thread (I never get notifications) and all this time you were sitting on an M6...(!)

As far as Porsche goes, I'll do the same thing...keep the one I already have. The new ones tickle the fancy, but ultimately won't give any more satisfaction. Plus, they aren't building any more 993s and never will.
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Old 06-07-2016   #115
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As far as Porsche goes, I'll do the same thing...keep the one I already have.
I am with you - we are completely content with the simple Cayman -- who needs a back seat anyways
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Old 06-07-2016   #116
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Originally Posted by Vince Lupo View Post
So i've been wondering, if the same original question could be applied to cars, could you therefore then ask 'which Porsche?'
A Porsche is just as much a piece of a simple life as a Leica camera might be. If your simple life includes a car, why not make it a Porsche if you want one and can afford it?

Personally, I prefer my Mercedes SLK to a Porsche.



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Old 06-07-2016   #117
splitimageview
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Originally Posted by Vince Lupo View Post
I am with you - we are completely content with the simple Cayman -- who needs a back seat anyways
If it's a Porsche, though, it has to be air cooled. For simplicity, natch.
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Old 06-07-2016   #118
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If it's a Porsche, though, it has to be air cooled. For simplicity, natch.
I'll admit, it would be simpler

You know, I'm also thinking that life is just too complex, cluttered and hustle-bustle where I live -- I think a much simpler and uncluttered life could be had in a basic, very simple beachfront home in the Cayman Islands.
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Old 06-07-2016   #119
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Originally Posted by Vince Lupo View Post
You know I'm also thinking Dave you might require a travel case of some kind - a simple one, mind you - to transport your simple, uncluttered Leica camera and your very nice (yet oh so simple!) pencil in that Porsche 912 (and a very frugal, minimalist Porsche it is too).

Perhaps a very straightforward, very simple, un-frilly Keepall Bandouliere in the most basic of basics - Monogram Canvas - by Louis Vuitton?
Nah, it might clash with my seersucker suit here in The Deep South. Actually, it just would not look right on the Road King. Black is the new color year round... even in the heat with the new high tech fabrics, preferably monogram free.
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Old 06-07-2016   #120
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So, now it's about Porsche or Mercedes Benz...let's listen Janis Joplin'ssuggestion...
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