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Another one bites the dust: Samsung - it's official now
Old 11-19-2015   #1
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Another one bites the dust: Samsung - it's official now

There have been a lot of rumors lately that Samsung will stop camera production.
The rumors seem to be true:
Today Samsung Germany has published a statement that because of the sales decline in digital cameras and camcorders they will quit the German market.
As Germany is the 4th biggest camera market worldwide behind Japan, China, USA it is quite obvious that this is because of a general production stop, and announcements in the other markets will follow.

http://www.fotomagazin.de/technik/sa...omarkt-zurueck

The collapse of the digital camera market is still going on, and it will probably continue for some further years.
Lots of Asian OEM manufacturers already have quit the market and stopped production in the last years. With Casio and now Samsung the first two big companies had / have to give up.
Probably they will not be the last.
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Old 11-19-2015   #2
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you may be right, the statement however, to the contrary, says, quote: "Hierbei handelt es sich um eine Entscheidung, die nur den deutschen Markt betrifft"
which roughly translates to: this decision applies to the German market only
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Old 11-19-2015   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuuan View Post
you may be right, the statement however, to the contrary, says, quote: "Hierbei handelt es sich um eine Entscheidung, die nur den deutschen Markt betrifft"
which roughly translates to: this decision applies to the German market only
It is pretty safe to say that it must apply to all of Europe, then - in technical terms there hasn't been a "German market" for decades, if they want to get out there the only way is by getting out of the entire EU and EFTA.
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Old 11-19-2015   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuuan View Post
you may be right, the statement however, to the contrary, says, quote: "Hierbei handelt es sich um eine Entscheidung, die nur den deutschen Markt betrifft"
which roughly translates to: this decision applies to the German market only
Yes, but of course a national subsidiary always says that their statements are for their national market only.
Germany is by far the biggest market in Europe. And Europe is the biggest market for cameras worldwide.
Some days ago a Spanish Samsung employee says distribution in Spain is stopped. The design team for the cameras in Japan has stopped working. They are now in other departments of the company.

Let's bet: In the next weeks and months more and more national Samsung subsidiarys will make the same statements. And in the end there will be the one from Samsung Korea saying it's all over, production has stopped.
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Old 11-19-2015   #5
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"This is a decision that affects only the German market". A pretty clear message.
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Old 11-19-2015   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Wijninga View Post
"This is a decision that affects only the German market". A pretty clear message.
You have to be extremely naive to think it is only affecting the German market.
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Old 11-19-2015   #7
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Germany is a very "photography crazy" and "camera crazy" country.
The photo per capita budget of the Germans is the second highest in the world. Only the Japanese are spending more on photography than the Germans.
Just an example: In Germany there are more than 20 photo print magazines. And dozens of online forums.
How much do you have in North America?

If Samsung stops distribution in Germany, then because of only one reason: Production has been stopped or will be stopped soon by the Samsung headquarter.

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Old 11-27-2015   #8
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http://www.dpreview.com/articles/893...rumors-say-yes

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Old 11-27-2015   #9
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I read Sammy exits Britany, too. Too bad.
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Old 11-27-2015   #10
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"The collapse of the digital camera market is still going on, and it will probably continue for some further years."
OK, so maybe they go back to making Contax 645 again
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Old 11-27-2015   #11
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"The collapse of the digital camera market is still going on, and it will probably continue for some further years."
OK, so maybe they go back to making Contax 645 again
Very very unlikely. Yashica-Kyocera, the manufacturer of the Contax, had not only left the film camera production, but also the digital camera production some years ago. They were one of the first companies "killed" in the murderous digital competition.

But I would not be surprised if in some years MamiyaLeaf offer a film back solution for their cameras.
Hasselblad is already (partly) going in this direction, and will probably extend it in the future.

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Old 11-27-2015   #12
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The furious pace of Sony innovation in the digital camera sector is changing the game just as rapidly as they produce new cameras. I suspect there will be more exits among the few players who are left. Nikon and Canon have the cash to compete; but, so far, seem to be happy to coast along, trying to protect their high end DSLR market. DSLR's are dead. Nikon and Canon need to do a little shock and awe in the mirrorless market or get out the game.
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Old 11-28-2015   #13
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I doubt if the Germans--or anyone else--are taking fewer photos. My guess is that the majority of people are using their cell phones instead of a point-and-shoot digital camera. The point-and-shoot market is simply drying up. The market for more advanced digital cameras will continue to be strong.
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Old 11-29-2015   #14
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Isn't the sort of like if Ford stopped making cameras? I didn't even know there was a Samsung camera. What effect does it have on the world for someone who isn't known for cameras to stop making cameras? About zero, don't you think?

Wake me up when someone important, like Nikon or Canon decides to stop. Or when Samsung stops making phones. THAT would be news. Otherwise-- meh. :-)

The crappy end of the market Samsung makes cameras for has been entirely swallowed by phones. This story isn't about the death of digital cameras--it's about the deserved death of $100 bottom-feeding junk cameras in the face of, for instance, the superior cameras in Samsung's own phones.
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Old 11-29-2015   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdarnton View Post
Isn't the sort of like if Ford stopped making cameras? I didn't even know there was a Samsung camera. What effect does it have on the world for someone who isn't known for cameras to stop making cameras? About zero, don't you think?

Wake me up when someone important, like Nikon or Canon decides to stop. Or when Samsung stops making phones. THAT would be news. Otherwise-- meh. :-)

The crappy end of the market Samsung makes cameras for has been entirely swallowed by phones. This story isn't about the death of digital cameras--it's about the deserved death of $100 bottom-feeding junk cameras in the face of, for instance, the surperior cameras in Samsung's own phones.
+1

Great answer. A non-competitor couldn't compete with the big boys. I'm sure Samsung has lost a market or two in the past so losing their place in a camera market is not exactly a huge set back.

They'll roll another tanker out of the docks tomorrow and cameras will be long forgotten.

It should serve as a lesson though to the people that seem to think that someone will always build something better and cheaper and stick around to drive the real players from the market.

That ain't gonna happen, ever.

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Old 11-29-2015   #16
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Old 11-29-2015   #17
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I have a Samsung fridge .... best fridge I've ever owned!
I have a 42 inch Samsung TV, the worst TV I have ever owned!
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Old 11-29-2015   #18
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Red face

Given some of the stories I've heard of Samsung service for problems just out of warranty, I've made it a personal policy to not buy Samsung products. I admit the stories are selective and hold no statistical significance, but I'm sticking by my decision.
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Old 11-29-2015   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Murphy View Post
It should serve as a lesson though to the people that seem to think that someone will always build something better and cheaper and stick around to drive the real players from the market.
Agreed.. and especially so if it's not the core business of the new kid on the block. There are numerous examples of large companies that throw something at a random market, see how well it does and then pull out again if it's not an instant success..
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Old 11-29-2015   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdarnton View Post
Isn't the sort of like if Ford stopped making cameras? I didn't even know there was a Samsung camera. What effect does it have on the world for someone who isn't known for cameras to stop making cameras? About zero, don't you think?...
The crappy end of the market Samsung makes cameras for has been entirely swallowed by phones. This story isn't about the death of digital cameras--it's about the deserved death of $100 bottom-feeding junk cameras in the face of, for instance, the superior cameras in Samsung's own phones.
ha, most remarkable, you didn't know that Samsung made cameras but you do know that the cameras they made were crap resp. made for the crappy end of the market

needless to say imo they made some interesting cameras. First the Pentax dSLR clones and later specially the NX series, mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras with APS-C sensors, possibly it even was the VERY first producer to offer such a camera, shortly before Sony came out with the their first, the NEX3 and 2 years before Fujifilm made it's debut. Their I-function lenses are unique and offer an interesting concept, it's lenses for their mirrorless cams that have a button on the lens that switches between shutter speed, aperture, ISO and WB which then can be set with a ring, similar to an aperture ring, right on the lens.
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Old 11-29-2015   #21
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I have a 42 inch Samsung TV, the worst TV I have ever owned!
Ditto, I have a 50" Samsung 4K TV (last year's model 50HU8550). The user interface is so abysmal neither my wife, in-laws or mother can use it. I got a LG for upstairs this weekend, so much better it's not even funny. Sony TVs use Samsung panels, though, and are well-regarded.

It's sad about the cameras, though. The NX1 was the first one with a large BSI sensor (but Sony has trumped them since with its BSI-FF A7RII and RX1RII), and they were innovative, but had terrible marketing and thus did not get traction. The writing was on the wall when they merged the camera division with smartphones, a move usually prompted by the need to bury dismal financials in consolidated reporting with a healthy division.
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Old 11-29-2015   #22
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junk cameras? right.

Like the NX1?
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/samsung-nx1

where lenses like a 85/1.4, 50-150mm F2.8 or 16-50mm F2-2.8 are available, all of outstanding quality? hm.
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Old 11-29-2015   #23
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Been reading good, or average at worst, results from major Japanese makers, pretty much through the year.
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Old 11-30-2015   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Fleming View Post
The market for more advanced digital cameras will continue to be strong.
The reality is:
The market for advanced digital cameras (DSLR and mirrorless) decreased from 21,089 million units in 2012 to only 13,487 million units in 2014.
And this year it will be even less.
Here is the data:
http://www.cipa.jp/stats/dc_e.html
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Old 11-30-2015   #25
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Quote:
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The reality is:
The market for advanced digital cameras (DSLR and mirrorless) decreased from 21,089 million units in 2012 to only 13,487 million units in 2014.
And this year it will be even less.
Here is the data:
http://www.cipa.jp/stats/dc_e.html

No surprise: latest advanced digital cameras got to a stage (120K+ usable ISO, blazing fast AF, absurdly high resolutions,very high DR, etc.) where the actual useful performance improvements are negligible or none.
IMO, you don't buy a new camera in year 2015 unless you're a last-model junkie or really need a specific performance improvement for a very specific use.
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Old 11-30-2015   #26
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That's one. But that's not the bulk of what they are doing. As I said, Samsung who?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kanzlr View Post
junk cameras? right.

Like the NX1?
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/samsung-nx1

where lenses like a 85/1.4, 50-150mm F2.8 or 16-50mm F2-2.8 are available, all of outstanding quality? hm.
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Old 11-30-2015   #27
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That's one. But that's not the bulk of what they are doing. As I said, Samsung who?
Well, the people who made the NX500. Because you only know about Nikon and Canon doesn't mean somebody else doesn't make decent cameras.

Oh, btw, to Canon cameras aren't the bulk of what they are doing, it is about a third of their business.
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Old 11-30-2015   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13Promet View Post
No surprise: latest advanced digital cameras got to a stage (120K+ usable ISO, blazing fast AF, absurdly high resolutions,very high DR, etc.) where the actual useful performance improvements are negligible or none.
IMO, you don't buy a new camera in year 2015 unless you're a last-model junkie or really need a specific performance improvement for a very specific use.
Markets saturate at a given feature level, and 2010-2012 was the ramp up for APS-C mirrorless cameras, among other things. It's probably the same thing that happened AF p/s cameras supplanted Canonets and AF SLRs replaced manual focus cones.

But from the numbers in interchangeable-lens cameras, they were

roughly 9.666 million January to September 2015
roughly 10.084 million January to September 2014

That's a decline of 418,000 units or 4.1%. At that rate of change, it would take well over a decade for the sales of interchangeable lens cameras to reach half of what they are today (assuming that 4K video doesn't spur a wave of upgrades). But it's really hard to call, since in June and July of 2015, those cameras exceeded the 2014 numbers by 300,000 units.

But two other things are also clear from CIPA:

1. The small number of market participants (10) shipped 26 million digital cameras in nine months.

2. Mirrorless cameras are still languishing at about 1/4 to 1/3 DSLR volume. So for all the "converts," it is hardly as if DSLRs are dead in the water. But their average sale price must be higher.

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Old 11-30-2015   #29
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Quote:
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junk cameras? right.

Like the NX1?
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/samsung-nx1

where lenses like a 85/1.4, 50-150mm F2.8 or 16-50mm F2-2.8 are available, all of outstanding quality? hm.
But really, if I had 2200 bucks in a pocket, would I really want a Samsung APS-C camera?

In the real world, no matter how I try to suppress it, there is a "pride of ownership" factor in photo equipment. I guess one could think of Samsung as the anti-Leica?

Not for me.
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Old 11-30-2015   #30
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But really, if I had 2200 bucks in a pocket, would I really want a Samsung APS-C camera?

In the real world, no matter how I try to suppress it, there is a "pride of ownership" factor in photo equipment. I guess one could think of Samsung as the anti-Leica?

Not for me.
That doubtlessly is one handicap. Another is their odd market research, which seems to be Korean consumer driven - it almost looks as if they polled the same set of people regardless whether a camera, smartphone, TV or dishwasher is concerned. What with 80% having no opinion at all regarding cameras and half of the rest being 6-16yr old boys, Samsung cameras sometimes resemble that Homer Simpson designed car in one early Simpson episode.

That said, if they want to stay in the shrinking camera industry, they must pick up some more credible brand. Maybe one of them will be up for grabs in time - if not, I predict that Samsung will quit, or at least withdraw to their domestic market...
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Old 11-30-2015   #31
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I have a 42 inch Samsung TV, the worst TV I have ever owned!
Got the same TV. After buying it, and after the screen seemed to have fell apart pixel-wise, I took the TV for repair. They replaced 5 diodes, I think. Since then, it has been a great working TV,
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Old 11-30-2015   #32
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Got the same TV. After buying it, and after the screen seemed to have fell apart pixel-wise, I took the TV for repair. They replaced 5 diodes, I think. Since then, it has been a great working TV,
So basically owning a Samsung TV is dependent on personal strength and ownership of a car?

Not so much for me, don't own a car, I just pound the back of mine and usually it starts, due to a bad capacitor. For a long time they would not acknowledge it, and I guess we have gotten our money's worth.
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Old 11-30-2015   #33
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i LOVE our samsung TV ...
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Old 11-30-2015   #34
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i LOVE our samsung TV ...
Just stay away from Samsung DVD players. They are crap. I'll never buy one again. Especially after reading reviews about them from others.
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Old 11-30-2015   #35
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Just curious. Since when does the quality, or lack of quality, of their other products become relevant information regarding their decision to leave the European camera market?

I would venture to bet that the decision to leave the market probably had more to do with the contribution of the camera division to the entire company's profit/loss margin. For a company that makes so many different products I suspect it was a pretty easy decision.
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Old 11-30-2015   #36
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Just curious. Since when does the quality, or lack of quality, of their other products become relevant information regarding their decision to leave the European camera market?
Absolutely nothing.
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Old 11-30-2015   #37
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Just curious. Since when does the quality, or lack of quality, of their other products become relevant information regarding their decision to leave the European camera market?

I would venture to bet that the decision to leave the market probably had more to do with the contribution of the camera division to the entire company's profit/loss margin. For a company that makes so many different products I suspect it was a pretty easy decision.
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Old 11-30-2015   #38
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you may be right, the statement however, to the contrary, says, quote: "Hierbei handelt es sich um eine Entscheidung, die nur den deutschen Markt betrifft"
which roughly translates to: this decision applies to the German market only
If I were to exit the total market, I would stop zone by zone pulling stock to more active sales zones as needed.

If a general announcement were made, it would be hard selling off stock from a failed company for reasons of no service.

Will have to wait & see.
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Old 12-01-2015   #39
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I would venture to bet that the decision to leave the market probably had more to do with the contribution of the camera division to the entire company's profit/loss margin.
Probably.

Samsung is in the process of making a number of major management changes, most in the spotlight, Samsung is trying to correct their declining phone division, with new management. The phones are producing the lowest profit in four years, but it is unclear from the many reports (rumors) what exactly is going on the the camera biz, only ending cheaper mirrorless?

My personal guess is that they will work on improved phone cameras (where the real money is), and eliminate the drag on their resources, from what is clearly a dying market. But they may well come back, since reports are none of the engineers are being fired.

They will make more announcements I am sure.
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Old 12-01-2015   #40
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They might have made it.

What they should have done:

Buy a name. Like Voigtlander. Maybe Sony would have sold them "Minolta" since they have not been using it in any sense.

Watch the buzz and follow it. The NX cameras were NEX cameras basically. Those cameras became a sensation mainly because of legacy lenses. While those were a minority of users they were highly vocal and influential. Sony liked this but ignored it in design. Samsung might have taken a hint and made legacy use a priority function.

The full frame EVIL, "interchangeable Q" niche is huge, glaring and totally unfulfilled, since Sony has chosen the thick sensor cover and now can't go back.

Looks like fuji will miss it also and move straight to MF, and we will see how that goes.
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