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help to save Zorki 4K shutter
Old 09-22-2015   #1
chris_zeel
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help to save Zorki 4K shutter

My Zorki 4K was working just fine until yesterday evening.

When winding the advance lever, it did not cock the shutter, as if it was in rewind mode.
After a quick search on internet I found that turning the shutterspeed button counterclockwise a couple of times could help.
I did, and the shutter was cocked in B mode. I fired the shutter, but again the advance lever did not cock the shutter.
I repeated the turning of the shutterspeed button and fired again. Same problem, repeated this. Set the shutter speed to 1/1000 and fired again.
Still no cocking of the shutter using the advance lever.

But after turn the shutterspeed button it did not end up at the 1/1000 position but around 1/30. After that I didn't dare to continue.


Any advice what to do and check to save this nice little camera?

Many thanks!
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Old 09-22-2015   #2
Mr_Flibble
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Did you turn the shutter button collar all the way up (or down, I forget which)?
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Old 09-22-2015   #3
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I think the camera is not in rewind mode, meaning that the collar is turned fully counterclockwise, if I'm right. Have to check when I get home tonight.

Any ideas on what the right position should be?
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Old 09-22-2015   #4
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I think you should be able to see things in action, in the red circle when you are winding, if not I think there is something with the collar around the shutter button, you may fiddle with it more.

If the cogs in the red circle are turning and the shutter is still not cocked then there should be something awfully wrong.
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Old 09-22-2015   #5
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Yes the collar should be turned fully counter clockwise for the winding mechanism to engage.

On my 4K I found that sometimes after loading the camera the advance required 2 strokes in order to properly synchronize the film advance with the full winding of the shutter.
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Old 09-22-2015   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nukecoke View Post
I think you should be able to see things in action, in the red circle when you are winding, if not I think there is something with the collar around the shutter button, you may fiddle with it more.

If the cogs in the red circle are turning and the shutter is still not cocked then there should be something awfully wrong.
I think the cogs are turning. I have to check when I'm at home but I think that the light metal spool is turning, but the two notches visible in this picture are just missing to touch each other:


How should does this normally work?
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Old 09-22-2015   #7
Murray Kelly
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A long ago memory came to mind. My Z-4 was not winding the shutter when advancing the film.
If you look closely at the area nukecoke has circled you will see that in the rewind position (collar clockwise) the two pins are apart and the sprocket wheel rotates freely.
When you wind the collar anti-clockwise the spring should push the lower pin back up and wind the shutter on advancing the film as the sprocket wheel rotates. Mine doesn't quite close properly and the the top pin jumps over the lower one. Result: no shutter.
The cure was to wind the collar back to normal and then depress and let the shutter button flick back thus allowing the spring to raise the lower pin all the way back and lock correctly when winding on.
I hate to say it but it's sticky and dry lube may help but letting the button flick up suddenly works fine on my Z-4.
Bottom line: the lower pin should touch the sprocket wheel for the shutter to wind. Any gap is indicative of stickiness in the lower pin spring return mechanism.
Give it the 'flick'
Hope this helps.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nukecoke View Post
I think you should be able to see things in action, in the red circle when you are winding, if not I think there is something with the collar around the shutter button, you may fiddle with it more.

If the cogs in the red circle are turning and the shutter is still not cocked then there should be something awfully wrong.
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Old 09-22-2015   #8
chris_zeel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murray Kelly View Post
A long ago memory came to mind. My Z-4 was not winding the shutter when advancing the film.
If you look closely at the area nukecoke has circled you will see that in the rewind position (collar clockwise) the two pins are apart and the sprocket wheel rotates freely.
When you wind the collar anti-clockwise the spring should push the lower pin back up and wind the shutter on advancing the film as the sprocket wheel rotates. Mine doesn't quite close properly and the the top pin jumps over the lower one. Result: no shutter.
The cure was to wind the collar back to normal and then depress and let the shutter button flick back thus allowing the spring to raise the lower pin all the way back and lock correctly when winding on.
I hate to say it but it's sticky and dry lube may help but letting the button flick up suddenly works fine on my Z-4.
Bottom line: the lower pin should touch the sprocket wheel for the shutter to wind. Any gap is indicative of stickiness in the lower pin spring return mechanism.
Give it the 'flick'
Hope this helps.

Your story makes sense to my situation, thanks Murray.

I'm afraid I'm not fully getting what you mean here:
"wind the collar back to normal and then depress and let the shutter button flick back thus allowing the spring to raise the lower pin all the way back and lock correctly when winding on"

What needs to be depressed? And which spring needs to raise which lower pin?
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Old 09-22-2015   #9
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OK - I'm not being clear.
You return the collar to 'normal' ie fully anti-clockwise. I then depress to shutter button and slide my finger off letting the button rise sharply as my finger nail comes off. (the flick)
The two pins in your picture should be locked in the same plane or the top one will jump over the bottom one as it rotates thus not winding the shutter.

The spring is the flat spring steel plate under the body casting. Normally it rests fully flat (no space between it and the body). Any gap is unacceptable.

I don't know why it sticks but that doesn't matter so long as you know how to avoid the problem.
Always be sure to check it out before you load the next film.

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Originally Posted by chris_zeel View Post
Your story makes sense to my situation, thanks Murray.

I'm afraid I'm not fully getting what you mean here:
"wind the collar back to normal and then depress and let the shutter button flick back thus allowing the spring to raise the lower pin all the way back and lock correctly when winding on"

What needs to be depressed? And which spring needs to raise which lower pin?
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Old 09-22-2015   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murray Kelly View Post
OK - I'm not being clear.
You return the collar to 'normal' ie fully anti-clockwise. I then depress to shutter button and slide my finger off letting the button rise sharply as my finger nail comes off. (the flick)
The two pins in your picture should be locked in the same plane or the top one will jump over the bottom one as it rotates thus not winding the shutter.

The spring is the flat spring steel plate under the body casting. Normally it rests fully flat (no space between it and the body). Any gap is unacceptable.

I don't know why it sticks but that doesn't matter so long as you know how to avoid the problem.
Always be sure to check it out before you load the next film.

This is more clear, thanks a lot!
I'll try this tonight.

One thing however, you write that you "depress the shutter button", but I believe my shutter button cannot really be depressed, since it's not releasing the shutter. Was this also the case in your situation?
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Old 09-22-2015   #11
Ron (Netherlands)
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If things still do not come loose, put a little drop of lighter fluid on the black screw (the one in your pictures where the arrow is pointing at) and try to push it downwards with a screwdriver, see if it comes loose.
The most dried up gum however is not in the film sprocket, but just under the shutter button, and you can only reach that by partly dismantling the topcover (see the ZORKI 4K HOW TO CLA in the sticky). The dried out gum should be cleaned out and replaced by fresh lubricant.
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Old 09-22-2015   #12
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Okay, here's a status update.


I tried the flicking of the shutter button, this did not help.

The situation now is that I can still cock the shutter by turning the shutter speed knob counterclockwise, and the flat spring steel plate under the body casting is not flat on the body.

I have attached a picture of what it looks like after have cocked the shutter.

Also, changing the shutter speeds (after shutter is cocked of course) works okay for fast speeds, but it seems to be rather tricky to get it out of slow speeds, such as 1 second. It tends to fire the shutter after lifting the shutter speed knob.



How can I solve this..?


Lastly, does it matter what setting the synchronisation scale is set to (X or M, mine says MF instead of M)?
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Old 09-22-2015   #13
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Ron, following your advice I tried this with some 100% ethanol, without result.


BTW, what position should the notches on the film sprocket and the one below be when the shutter is cocked? Perhaps someone could share what it looks like in their functioning camera?
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Old 09-22-2015   #14
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The images indicate the camera is in the film rewind position. Is the rewind/advance switch set to B or advance??
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Old 09-23-2015   #15
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The camera is not set in advance mode.

I have attached two pictures (first two, I think) of the camera when I turn the rewind collar as far as it goes clockwise, and how the spring plate and sprocket spool look like in that situation.

And the other picture (last one, I think) shows how the camera is set when I attempt to fix it.
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Old 09-23-2015   #16
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I can see the pin from the self timer is pushing the shutter release spring, I circled it in red. It doesn't look normal to me. Can you push the pin up, back to where it should be? Does the self timer work properly?

The pin in the blue circle should have a 工 shape at the tip, and the tip sits in a hole on the shutter release spring, so it can either push the spring when you press shutter button, or pull the spring back when you move your finger away from shutter button. I cant see clearly from the picture if the tip sits properly in the hole on the release spring. It might cause problem if the tip jumps out of the hole. However your release spring looks much thicker than mine, it may be variation between models so don't refer me on this.
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Old 09-23-2015   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nukecoke View Post
I can see the pin from the self timer is pushing the shutter release spring, I circled it in red. It doesn't look normal to me. Can you push the pin up, back to where it should be? Does the self timer work properly?

The pin in the blue circle should have a 工 shape at the tip, and the tip sits in a hole on the shutter release spring, so it can either push the spring when you press shutter button, or pull the spring back when you move your finger away from shutter button. I cant see clearly from the picture if the tip sits properly in the hole on the release spring. It might cause problem if the tip jumps out of the hole. However your release spring looks much thicker than mine, it may be variation between models so don't refer me on this.
I tested the self timer yesterday and it seems to works okay. The shutter was quite easily released when I touched some parts there.

What part is shutter release spring exactly? Is that the plate that lines with the bottom of the body?
Like in this picture? :


I can share a picture of how that pin sits in the bottom plate (release spring?) when I get home tonight.

How should it normally be?
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Old 09-23-2015   #18
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FWIW this is what my Z-4 looks like when the shutter is set after winding.
The 2 pins overlap. Something must be obstructing your shutter cog mechanism from rising.
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Old 09-23-2015   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris_zeel View Post
I tested the self timer yesterday and it seems to works okay. The shutter was quite easily released when I touched some parts there.

What part is shutter release spring exactly? Is that the plate that lines with the bottom of the body?
Like in this picture? :


I can share a picture of how that pin sits in the bottom plate (release spring?) when I get home tonight.

How should it normally be?
Yes, this is a shutter release spring.

I agree with Murray that something is preventing the shutter cog mechanism from rising.
You can compare Murray's picture and the picture you post in #12. I can see all three pins pushing the shutter release spring in your picture, but it's not pushed that far like in the middle picture in #15 (which is normal for rewinding mode). For now I still suspect it's the pin from the self timer as I circled in red in my last post.
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Old 09-23-2015   #20
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Could there be a small piece of shredded film under the spring? Or perhaps in the area where the 2 pins live? What happens if you apply gentle pressure to assist the spring?
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Old 09-23-2015   #21
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Thanks for the advice people!

I'll check as soon as I get home.
I don't think it's a piece of film, since it has been album two years since I last ran a film through.

The selftimer pin is a good possibility. I also noted that the curved arm (located behind the sprocket spool) was a bit wobbly.

I'll send an update as soon as I did some testing.
Many thanks again!
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Old 09-23-2015   #22
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Okay, it's not the pin of the self-timer that is causing trouble.

The pin that comes from the shutter button just won't retract to it's position and to relax the shutter release spring.

How can I best fix this?

I already went through the CLA stickie to some extent, so I'm prepared for something.
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Old 09-23-2015   #23
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It seems that the collar round the shutter button is not positioned upright totally. Can you grab it and pull it up by turning it clockwise or counter clockwise?
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Old 09-23-2015   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron (Netherlands) View Post
It seems that the collar round the shutter button is not positioned upright totally. Can you grab it and pull it up by turning it clockwise or counter clockwise?
Good suggestion, but it does not seem to work.
I tried till my fingers started to hurt and I thought of getting pliers, which I didn't do.

I guess that this would be similar to what Murray suggesting by flicking the shutter button.
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Old 09-25-2015   #25
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I guess I'll have to do a CLA, at least with the shutter button and components working of the shutter release spring.

Any tips to get underway (using the CLA sticky on the forum).

I have to dismantle the top cover and get straight over to the shutter button?

Would that be the best way to go?
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Zorki 4K not always cocking shutter
Old 07-02-2017   #26
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Zorki 4K not always cocking shutter

When I wind on my Zorki 4K my shutter doesn't always cock, I lost an entire roll of TMax with it. I thought I'd fixed using a release cable and it was ok for a while so I thought I'd risk a roll of Acros in it, but it's now doing the same again. Again I've managed to release it and as far as I'm aware the film is ok with maybe a couple of frames have been lost. Any help would be gratefully received as the camera was a present and the bin isn't really an option.
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Old 07-05-2017   #27
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Thank you for moving my post, there's a lot here for me to work through.
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Old 07-08-2017   #28
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If you follow the CLA sticky, take the top cover off and dismantle the shutter release mechanism. I agree that it is not returning to "advance" mode, this is most likely caused by dried-up grease in the rods and spacers under the shutter button and release collar.

It's not difficult to get at it after removing the top cover, just read very carefully about the 4k's winder spring and be careful to do exactly as the CLA directs you.

EDIT: just noticed it's a resurrected thread
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Last edited by wolves3012 : 07-08-2017 at 13:08. Reason: EDIT: just noticed it's a resurrected thread!
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Old 07-08-2017   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris_zeel View Post
I think the cogs are turning. I have to check when I'm at home but I think that the light metal spool is turning, but the two notches visible in this picture are just missing to touch each other:


How should does this normally work?
Just out of interest - the photograph here illustrates what is wrong......the flat spring should be engaged with shaft, under the sprockets, rather than sitting on top of it, as it is here.
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Old 07-09-2017   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnf04 View Post
Just out of interest - the photograph here illustrates what is wrong......the flat spring should be engaged with shaft, under the sprockets, rather than sitting on top of it, as it is here.
That's what I meant by #16.
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