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Business / Philosophy of Photography Taking pics is one thing, but understanding why we take them, what they mean, what they are best used for, how they effect our reality -- all of these and more are important issues of the Philosophy of Photography. One of the best authors on the subject is Susan Sontag in her book "On Photography."

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Old 07-27-2015   #41
noisycheese
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Originally Posted by BillBingham2 View Post
In this sort of transaction I have found the eBay always protects one side more than any other.


Themselves.

I gave up on EvilBay and PainPal years ago.

I hope you have better luck than I did.

B2
Same here.

eBay cares about eBay and their profits above all other considerations.
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Old 07-28-2015   #42
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That's right. Today's hobbiests and collectors of vintage items expect the same service from an individual seller that they get from megacorporations like Walmart. They want to "buy", then receive and handle the item and then "think about it". Often, they change their mind. But hey, you're a big, fancy seller that can write off these expenses, right? The buyer is ALWAYS right, correct? If they want a refund, or to send it back, it's at your expense and lost time. Not theirs for being flaky or dishonest.
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Old 07-28-2015   #43
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Originally Posted by johnny scarecrow View Post
Yes, sure. Even if, as a seller, you have no case to answer; even if you've done exactly the right thing and sent an item exactly as you described it, just refund the buyer and we're sweet. Terrific.
Sorry, if this isn't an acceptable result you shouldn't be selling online. IMO the deal isn't finished until both seller and buyer are satisfied. It's true in a face-to-face deal, and it needs to be so in an online deal as well. Unfortunately, online, there are costs that both sides need to 'eat' if the deal falls apart. It's the price you pay for access to the broader market.
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Old 07-28-2015   #44
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Originally Posted by goamules View Post
That's right. Today's hobbiests and collectors of vintage items expect the same service from an individual seller that they get from megacorporations like Walmart. They want to "buy", then receive and handle the item and then "think about it". Often, they change their mind. But hey, you're a big, fancy seller that can write off these expenses, right? The buyer is ALWAYS right, correct? If they want a refund, or to send it back, it's at your expense and lost time. Not theirs for being flaky or dishonest.
The buyer is responsible for the costs of return shipping, and the cheapest services don't work since a signature is required. If I'm willing pay out to return something, it's because there is a problem, not because I'm 'flaky or dishonest'.
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Old 07-28-2015   #45
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That's true too. When I sell, I write very clearly the condition. I will say if it has dust, slight haze et cetra. The problem comes when a buyer doesn't read the ad, because they don't speak English. Or their interpretation of "slight haze" doesn't match mine. Yet they still try to buy my item. I don't buy things from Chinese language websites, because I don't speak Chinese and so don't know what I'm getting. See the difference?
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Old 07-28-2015   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goamules View Post
That's right. Today's hobbyists and collectors of vintage items expect the same service from an individual seller that they get from mega-corporations like Walmart. They want to "buy", then receive and handle the item and then "think about it". Often, they change their mind. But hey, you're a big, fancy seller that can write off these expenses, right? The buyer is ALWAYS right, correct? If they want a refund, or to send it back, it's at your expense and lost time. Not theirs for being flaky or dishonest.
That is why I don't sell collectible cameras online.

We do live in an odd time, where many expect ancient cameras to function as though they were new. I always knew better, even mint, almost unused cameras, fall apart quickly if the expendable parts are not replaced.

Just to make the situation worse, there are no professionals who have replaced guys like Marty Forscher in NYC. Of course there is a solution -- fix your own stuff.
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Old 07-28-2015   #47
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The guy got back to me saying he will bill me for the cleaning of the lens as it has to go to the camera shop.

I replied reiterating that he may send it back for a full refund, but I will not be offering him a partial refund.
That's the way to deal with scheming buyer. I had that happen to me also. Sold a black Contax G2 to a buyer in Taiwan. He waited with the payment almost a week. Then he paid me on Saturday. Following Sunday he filed complaint with ebay that G2 hasn't arrived yet. Then, once he got the camera, it"Wasn't as descibed", and he wanted 400 dollars partial refund from me. I wrote to him that I don't issue partial refunds, and if he sends me camera back, I'll give him all the money he paid. He replied then that he doesn't want to do it because he "invested too much time and effort" in that camera. In the end he kept the camera without any refund, but what a pain...
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Old 07-28-2015   #48
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There's a lot of shady buyers on ebay. They'd keep the camera until the last week of what ebay allows, then contact you for a partial refund. Never fall for this partial refund scam. Refund, get the item back, and resell it to a deserving customer.
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Old 07-28-2015   #49
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The buyer is responsible for the costs of return shipping, and the cheapest services don't work since a signature is required. If I'm willing pay out to return something, it's because there is a problem, not because I'm 'flaky or dishonest'.
And that is a problem with cheap items. Shipping back will cost more than an item and some sellers tend to abuse this situation. Of course, one would say - when you buy so cheap why would you care even if it's not as described, but cheap or expensive, it's still cheating. I once bought a dozen of "fresh" silver oxide batteries. When tested they all showed between 1.1-1.3V. They still worked, but I was not happy because I felt cheated. Seller said that my tester is bad because "other buyers were happy". Return cost (if signed for) were higher than the item cost. Partial refund was refused. That's it. I had to bite the bullet.
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Old 07-29-2015   #50
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And that is a problem with cheap items. Shipping back will cost more than an item and some sellers tend to abuse this situation..
So are you saying the seller should pay for the return??

eBay makes it clear the buyer is responsible even if the return cost is more than the purchase price..

I don't think the seller is abusing the situation. He simply is not responsible for return costs...
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Old 07-29-2015   #51
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Ebay makes it clear the seller is responsible for return shipping costs if the item is not as described, colyn. Ebay makes it clear. Although this was an odd situation because of the re-shipment. So, ebay makes it pretty clear the SELLER is responsible for return costs if the item is not as described. Ebay that is. Clear.

What I want to know is was the mark on the rear element there when the OP sent the lens, or is it a hair or something?
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Old 08-06-2015   #52
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I had a similar experience with a buyer from another forum. I sold a very nice M43 pro line zoom for a very competitive price. Lens was in perfect condition except for a minuscule bit of dirt here and there from using it (I don't keep gear in boxes inside locked cabinets, I shoot photos with it). Anyway, he complained and complained wanting a reduction in price. That basically teed me off and I offered immediate refund upon return of the lens at his expense, but not one cent of price adjustment.

He kept on insisting on price adjustment and I stood firm on my offer of full refund upon return. I also pointed out that he had already kept and used the lens for weeks and I deserved rental fees if he did not return it immediately... Naturally he kept the lens but gave me a bad review!!

If you did everything by the book, you can stand your ground and offer refund upon return in the same condition as you sent it.
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Old 08-06-2015   #53
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The answer to unhappy eBay buyers is called catawiki.com...

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Old 08-06-2015   #54
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This must be a recent change .
The buyer is always responsible for return cost in the past .

The cost of the return shipping is the price to see the item in person .
Everyone's grading of condition varies .








Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranchu View Post
Ebay makes it clear the seller is responsible for return shipping costs if the item is not as described, colyn. Ebay makes it clear. Although this was an odd situation because of the re-shipment. So, ebay makes it pretty clear the SELLER is responsible for return costs if the item is not as described. Ebay that is. Clear.

What I want to know is was the mark on the rear element there when the OP sent the lens, or is it a hair or something?
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Old 08-06-2015   #55
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If the buyer says the item is not as described, ebay will give them a png paid return shipping label to print out and stick on the returned package, and takes the money out of the sellers account to pay for it. Think of it as a little extra encouragement to the seller to describe the item accurately, and clearly. Though this particular specific situation is likely different because of the re-shipping, I don't know.
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Old 08-07-2015   #56
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Ebay makes it clear the seller is responsible for return shipping costs if the item is not as described, colyn.
Interesting.....

I won a dispute on a camera that was not as advertised recently. eBay's instructions to me were to ship it back with tracking and once I forward the tracking to them (eBay) my paypal account would be refunded. My original purchase price and shipping was refunded once the package was delivered but I'm still out the return shipping.. When I called eBay I was told return shipping is my responsibility...
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Old 08-07-2015   #57
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Interesting ,
I know ebay was trying to get sellers to pay shipping both ways in the event of a dispute , however I thought that was something you had to sign onto and there was an incentive offered .
Ebay is trying to be another amazon .
It was best when it was the worlds largest garage sale .
When an item seems too low in price , well you have to expect it to cost
The return shipping to check it out .
I seldom return items , many of the items I bid on are rare , or unusual .
Obviously when some gives a glowing account of a lens and there is fungus and scratches , the item is not as described .
But there are a group of crazy's that can find the smallest fault with a near perfect item .why should the seller eat the shipping both ways , when dealing with them ?
If I get an item I feel is not great I offer to pay shipping both ways , as a buyer I think this is fair .










Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranchu View Post
If the buyer says the item is not as described, ebay will give them a png paid return shipping label to print out and stick on the returned package, and takes the money out of the sellers account to pay for it. Think of it as a little extra encouragement to the seller to describe the item accurately, and clearly. Though this particular specific situation is likely different because of the re-shipping, I don't know.
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Old 08-07-2015   #58
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It's not acceptable at all in the cases I illustrated. I have an Eboy feedback of over 620, many of those sales, and all but a couple where both parties have been happy. I know about both sides of the transaction being happy, as I have a 100% feedback rating. It doesn't mean I have to find the few times where things go against me as an honest seller acceptable.

But, hey, thanks a lot for taking the time to tell me how to run my end of things.
Sorry Johnny, rep is very important, I agree ( I have over 300+ 100% on ebay, 200+ 100% on FM, and assorted here and on other websites) but I'm not sure what you expect ebay to do...take your word over someone else without hard proof? Yeah it sucks when you encounter a jerk but a couple in over 600 transactions is pretty good odds IMO.
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Old 08-08-2015   #59
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If I get an item I feel is not great I offer to pay shipping both ways , as a buyer I think this is fair .
Wait what? you pay shipping BOTH ways? lmao. As a buyer I think that's pretty bizarre.

If the item is not as described by someone who by their sales history should know better, I see no reason to pay for their mistake, I had no part in it. A lady sold me a 15" certified thermometer once and sent me a 9" one. I'm not paying for stupid either.

In cases like these, the seller will pay the shipping both ways. As a buyer I think that's quite fair.
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Old 08-08-2015   #60
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I read through ebays not as described policy just now .
If the seller is enrolled in the ebay hassle free returns program ,
When you initiate the return , ebay gives you a shipping label to print out .
It is part of the agreement that sellers makes when listing useing
Hassle free returns policy , seller pays return shipping .

The policy also states that some sellers not enrolled in hassle free returns ,
Check their listing and return policy , some only refund original shipping
Not return shipping .
There is a loophole where if buyer claims not as described , ebay can rule
In buyers favor and seller pays return shipping charges , this would
Occur as part of the dispute and is not automatic like hassle free returns ,
I'm fairly sure this applys to us sales only .



It may seem crazy to pay shipping both way as a buyer , but with many camera items
Being fairly expensive , it eliminates a lot of hassle from the seller regarding a return .
Everyone's gradeing on an item varies .
As I stated before the return shipping is the cost of examining the item in person .

The ebay model of absolutely no cost to the buyer , gives entitlement and encourages
The buyer to demand large partial refunds , file false claims to get the item at little cost ,
As there is no down side to doing so .










QUOTE=Ranchu;2515856]Wait what? you pay shipping BOTH ways? lmao. As a buyer I think that's pretty bizarre.

If the item is not as described by someone who by their sales history should know better, I see no reason to pay for their mistake, I had no part in it. A lady sold me a 15" certified thermometer once and sent me a 9" one. I'm not paying for stupid either.

In cases like these, the seller will pay the shipping both ways. As a buyer I think that's quite fair.[/quote]
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Old 08-08-2015   #61
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I had the same issue with a buyer in Vietnam, I sold a Takumar 58/2 lens, and the buyer later sent a photo showing the lens full of black spots. I had already left feedback after the buyer paid, so there was nothing I could do. I ended up giving a partial refund, and blocking the buyer from bidding on any more of my items.

Share the user name so those here who sell on eBay can block this person from our auctions.
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Old 08-08-2015   #62
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The ebay model of absolutely no cost to the buyer , gives entitlement and encourages
The buyer to demand large partial refunds , file false claims to get the item at little cost ,
As there is no down side to doing so .

I've never done that, ever. The downside would be being a ****ty little creep. I'm just trying to buy some gear, not rip anyone off. I'm not going to roll over and get ripped off either though. Sorry to make you read through all the rules, I think all sellers will have to have hassle free returns at some date in the future (September?), at least in the US..

https://community.ebay.com/t5/Archiv.../td-p/22407583
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Old 08-08-2015   #63
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I've never done that, ever. The downside would be being a ****ty little creep. I'm just trying to buy some gear, not rip anyone off. I'm not going to roll over and get ripped off either though. Sorry to make you read through all the rules, I think all sellers will have to have hassle free returns at some date in the future (September?), at least in the US..
Not you but every time eBay changes the rules in favor of the buyer they take advantage of it to rip off the seller..

eBay needs to start cutting the sellers some slack..

After the last change I sold a camera and the description clearly noted the meter was dead. After getting the camera he demanded a partial refund because of it and when I offered to refund in full once he returned it he filed an eBay complaint. eBay did find in my favor since I had offered a full refund but he left a negative feedback which took me several days to get removed since it was a total lie..

So in many cases the real dishonest party is the buyer........
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Returns Eric
Old 08-08-2015   #64
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Returns Eric

Honestly Eric ,
No one reads the communication between buyer and seller .
You need to call and talk in person to someone .
Only call during business hours here in the us .
If you call other times you will get someone in another country ,
They will assure you they are here to help and that they can resolve
The problem ,
However they are trained to be very nice to you and can not accomplish
Much .
If you reach someone outside the us apologize, say your dinner is burning ( anything to end the call )
Call again when you can reach someone here in the us .
Was the dispute indicated through paypal or ebay ?
You have to call the one the dispute was initiated through .
When you reach someone in the us , keep it short and sweet .
Say that you will accept a return ,you want the seller to ship the item back ,
However they are more interested in a reduction in price .
Say that you thought the item was in good condition however the buyer does not agree .
They should contact the buyer to state that a return is acceptable and
Buyer should ship back .
You have to call and talk in person with someone or they think everything is ok.

Learned from one crazy overseas buyer I had ,
So it does sometimes go horridly
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Old 08-09-2015   #65
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I had something similar selling a 50/1.2 Nikkor. The lens basically looked better to me than it did to the buyer, and it's very difficult to accurately convey small details of lens condition in photos. In my case, I asked him to return the lens and refunded his payment (in spite of having it listed as-is/no returns). The lens still looks good to me, but I won't try to sell it again - I'd rather have the lens than the hassles.
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