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Wishes to LEICA: What camera you would buy NEW if exists
Old 02-19-2020   #1
Sonnar2
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Wishes to LEICA: What camera you would buy NEW if exists

After eight months with my first digital Leica (M240) I suspect there is no future for digital rangefinders. I will definitely not "upgrade" to a M10.

My first RF camera (which I loved) was the small compact plastic Bessa-R. I have tried some, but hadn't find the Leica viewfinders truly superior to them. They are dimmer in most backlite situations. And then the "lifeview" screens are next to worthless. Expectations for perfection has run-up in the last 20 years and will continue. Even smartphones are very good in picture taking. Excellent lenses - except very slow ones or with distortion - need physical size and block viewfinder area.

What I would buy is a "Q2" with exchangable lenses, which I call "QX" (or maybe "QM"):

- full format (35mm equivalent) sensor, about 47 MP
- M lens mount
- electronic finder with focussing help (loupe or split-screen microprism ring)
- speed dial with locked "AE" and "Sport-AE" with higher speeds
- ISO dial
- programmable lens profiles: distortion, vignetting, exif-tags, redetection of lens setups
- simple menue structure (remember last position)
- make it straight and simple: leave away the rangefinder
- leave away the display as well (instead: bluetooth connection to smartphone/iphone)
- electronic anti-theft protection (suppressible) and inbuild GPS sensor
- size and weight: Small and lightweigt, of a Leica III/ Bessa-R2 camera. Back to "Barnack" style..!
- of course, this is a "outdoor use" camera (weather sealing will be welcome). The SL-2 "studio line" is a separate world.

If Leica don't make it, Fuji will. Or Nikon. Or even Sony...

What do you think?

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Old 02-19-2020   #2
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All I want is the capability to shoot native squares on the Q2
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Old 02-19-2020   #3
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I think the Leica CL was their first attempt. Eventually we might see a FF version.
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Old 02-19-2020   #4
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yes, sensor could be squarish as well, at least nearly. There is no physical reason for a native 2:3-format. In fact there was a reason (movie film format) which is long gone. What is simply needed is a format switch.
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Old 02-19-2020   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sepiareverb View Post
All I want is the capability to shoot native squares on the Q2
Bob,

On my SL2 I can crop to the square (VF'er and rear display show the square for framing). Effectively it crops the 47.3 MP sensor to 31.5 MP.

Really great with my APO 35 Cron which makes a good normal lens for the square. My gal is a celeb, digital influencer, and fashion blogger. She has 724K followers, so shooting the square for Instagram is mucho important.

Know that after importing into Lightroom that the images will be shown in the square, but if I hit the reset button I get the FF 47.3 MP raw file.

I don't see why Leica could not replicate this on the Q2. EZ-PZ.

Cal
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Old 02-19-2020   #6
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My dream/wish is for Leica to make a SL2 Monochrom. Also no need to limit the sensor to 41 MP like on the M10M: The Maestro 3 processor is mighty speedy and can handle the data.

Know it is said in the Red Dot Forums that the native L-glass is not only the most highly corrected glass that Leica makes, but also that it is future proofed out 3-4 generations and that this likely translates good for a 100 MP to 120 MP sensor.

In my case I forgive Leica for making big and heavy lenses.

Also who else makes APO wides?

I suspect that a Monochrom SL2 even with a 47.3 MP sensor would have the eqiv resolution of say perhaps a 60-75 MP sensor.

Currently I own a SL2 (about 2 weeks and a day old), an APO 35 Cron for my wide, and a 50 Lux-SL for my normal/portrait lens.

Other mirrorless cameras from Nikon, Sony and Panasonic seem to make three versions of a camera to meet the needs of either: a journalist/event shooter for speed; a landscape shooter where the emphisis is on resolution and IQ; and lastly a version more specialized for video.

Pretty amazing how on the SL2 how it easily covers all three versions mentioned above using "Lateral Thinking" (coined by Jono Slack) via its elegant interface. Also know that it also features a CINE mode if you want to take it to that level.

Know that I also own a CL, so if you understand how simple and elegant that interface is, the SL2 is a big step more forward.

I think the M10M had its sensor limited to 41 MP due to the slower Maestro 2 processor. This is the same processor used on my now 5 year old SL. The Maestro 3 kinda crushes the old Maestro 2 processor. Pretty much the Maestro 2 processor trickled down from the Leica "S" to the SL and now currently to the M10.

I imagine that for a guy like me who already has the Leica native L-glass it would be a great thing as these lenses are not inexpensive, but know that somehow I paid pre-Trump tariff prices and saved $1.2K on these two lenses mentioned above.

How hard would it be for Leica to make a SL2 Monochrom? Perhaps even call it the "Calzone" model. LOL.

Boy this would be a repeat of history. About 8 years ago Leica created the M Monochrom. I remember when it was just a rumor that one poster here on RFF said, "It was the dumbest thing Leica could do." LOL.

Back then I was an analog B&W film die hard, but Leica built my dream camera. I still own it BTW.

Cal
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Old 02-19-2020   #7
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I would like to see the M camera lineup break in half. I want two lines of Ms, one that is all optical and basically the classic version we have today in the M10-p, and then a second line that features only and EVF but is otherwise unchanged. Higher pixel counts are neat but don't help me much (every device I use regularly is 24mp, and I don't feel limited).
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Old 02-19-2020   #8
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I will never buy a digital Leica, but I hope Leica will continue to build the MP & MA.
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Old 02-19-2020   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonnar2 View Post
...
What I would buy is a "Q2" with exchangable lenses, which I call "QX" (or maybe "QM"):

- full format (35mm equivalent) sensor, about 47 MP
- M lens mount with adapter
- electronic finder with focussing help magnification and peaking
- speed dial with locked "AE" and "Sport-AE" with higher speeds
- ISO dial
- programmable lens profiles built in for M and R lenses
- simple menu structure (remember last position)
- make it straight and simple: leave away the rangefinder
- leave away the display as well (instead: bluetooth connection to smartphone/iphone)
- electronic anti-theft protection (suppressible) and inbuild GPS sensor
- size and weight: Small and lightweigt, of a Leica III/ Bessa-R2 camera. Back to "Barnack" style..!
- of course, this is a "outdoor use" camera (weather sealing will be welcome). The SL-2 "studio line" is a separate world.
...
The current CL does pretty well on that list (markings as above in bold and red). Don't need FF or 50 MPixel out of it, 24 is enough on the APS-C format; the weather sealing would be nice; the ISO and other settings are already very simple and convenient. Don't know what that "speed dial" thing you're looking for is.

I'd like it to have a port for a wired remote in the CL2 model, if/when it appears. Otherwise, I'm very satisfied with the CL as it is today: it's a near perfect general purpose camera. I want a 'larger than FF' format digital camera for some other things that go beyond what can be done with APS-C or FF format.

G
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Old 02-19-2020   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry View Post
I would like to see the M camera lineup break in half. I want two lines of Ms, one that is all optical and basically the classic version we have today in the M10-p, and then a second line that features only and EVF but is otherwise unchanged. Higher pixel counts are neat but don't help me much (every device I use regularly is 24mp, and I don't feel limited).
Henry,

Do a search on Leica Rumors under M-EVF. It does seem like the M-EVF will be coming. When??? I would expect the camera to be like the SL2, but smaller and really optimized for M-glass. Perhaps not as many MP on the sensor, likely not to have IBIS, and likely not to have the Maestro 3 processor.

My SL has a remarkable VF'er and rear display, but the SL2 VF'er and rear display crush my old SL.

Literally the rear display on the SL2 is only marginally bigger, perhaps about 1/16 of an inch, but the amount of pixels is double. The resolution and added pixel count become really evident when I zoom in.

Know that in my studio I use a 27 inch EIZO calibrated monitor. In a way having the high pixel count on the rear display is like having an EIZO mounted on the back of my camera.

I have no doubt that the EVF on my SL2 exceeds the performance of an optical VF'er. For focusing MF lenses I toggle a zoom in function. Not only is this zoom in movable, but it is deadly accurate. Pretty much I use my SL2 like a rangefinder, but the advantage is that my focus area is movable.

On the SL2 the zoomed in focus area does not reset to center; on my SL it does. I prefer the way the SL2 works because it makes it easier to bracket the focus and eliminates reframing. You can never tll when a model blinks an eye, or something happens in the background that adds to the picture. Not having to reframe makes for a faster shooter.

Also know that the M-EVF is a camera I'm interested in also, but I would like a Monochrom version.

Cal
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Old 02-19-2020   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
I'd like it to have a port for a wired remote in the CL2 model, if/when it appears. Otherwise, I'm very satisfied with the CL as it is today: it's a near perfect general purpose camera. I want a 'larger than FF' format digital camera for some other things that go beyond what can be done with APS-C or FF format.
Yes, you may be right. The "new" CL is very sexy (why the hell they used this name again?). Except for sensor size. Alas, I'm already in APS-C (Fuji) cameras and lenses, and can adopt/crop my M-lenses here. Since I use my Fujis most of all cameras, I knew that the speed dial (manual speeds) is the least important dial at all. It's classic and nice, but can be left away in favor of a "programm AE" dial, which would see far more usage (like the XA? lines have).
My bad suspect is, Leica could already make a full-format version of the nice CL, but refuse to do so, to keep sales of the M-camera. If this is true, Nikon will happily take-over business.
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Old 02-19-2020   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
The current CL does pretty well on that list (markings as above in bold and red). Don't need FF or 50 MPixel out of it, 24 is enough on the APS-C format; the weather sealing would be nice; the ISO and other settings are already very simple and convenient. Don't know what that "speed dial" thing you're looking for is.

I'd like it to have a port for a wired remote in the CL2 model, if/when it appears. Otherwise, I'm very satisfied with the CL as it is today: it's a near perfect general purpose camera. I want a 'larger than FF' format digital camera for some other things that go beyond what can be done with APS-C or FF format.

G
Godfrey,

My fashion blogger/digital influencer gal stole my CL.

Well actually I bought it kinda knowing it would be a great camera for her.

The CL is a great camera. Love the simple interface, the size, and it being a fast shooter. The layout and ergonomics should of won an award. Not much to improve upon.

My friend John uses the phrase "Digital Barnack" to describe the CL. My gal likes it with the added Leica grip because otherwise she says it is too small and too light. She also loves the finger loop.

BTW Leica Camera AG follows her.

Cal
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Old 02-19-2020   #13
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I think the biggest factor in leica cameras is cost. If they could figure out a way to drop the price to a reasonable level I would buy new. I cannot see the justification paying 3x the cost of a current, higher spec offering from a competitor. That’s why I bought mine used, though still expensive. Ya I get it, rangefinder experience blah blah, but truly the base m10 is $8300...

Tbh if I didn’t have glass for my film M’s there’s NO WAY I would buy or consider digital leica. Would likely stick to fuji.
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Old 02-19-2020   #14
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Too expensive..and too limited for my needs..
I need a few of the same bodies at any 1 time..and that means other brands.
Un-cripple the 30 min video length for concerts/workshops/meetings..
Bring em up to spec..
But as is..if I ever buy..it would be for personal use only..and that means 1 cam only..
But even that..is not gonna happen..because if it craps out..then what..lol..
Another 8+K..down the drain pipe..
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Old 02-19-2020   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonnar2 View Post
Yes, you may be right. The "new" CL is very sexy (why the hell they used this name again?). Except for sensor size. Alas, I'm already in APS-C (Fuji) cameras and lenses, and can adopt/crop my M-lenses here. Since I use my Fujis most of all cameras, I knew that the speed dial (manual speeds) is the least important dial at all. It's classic and nice, but can be left away in favor of a "programm AE" dial, which would see far more usage (like the XA? lines have).
My bad suspect is, Leica could already make a full-format version of the nice CL, but refuse to do so, to keep sales of the M-camera. If this is true, Nikon will happily take-over business.
Sonnar,

The M-EVF is kinda like a hybrid cross between a CL and a digital M. I can see how some of the layout and features developed on my SL2 could be part of the M-EVF.

The big jump I could imagine would be if the M-EVF is implemented with the Maestro 3 processor that is in the current SL2. If this is the case then it would be a game changer that would be a really good reason to not use a rangefinder.

Another way to frame the M-EVF is imagine a SL2 but the size of an M and optimized for M-glass.

Go to a Leica Store and take a look at the rear display and the EVF on a SL2. Use a MF lens with an adapter and see how the zoom in works and functions. I can see me having to buy a M-EVF just to exploit M-glass and for it size and mobility.

The small battery used on digital M's might be the only handicap. Oh-well I would have to be mindful of power consumption or carry a spare battery. Like I said, "Oh-well."

I would also add that if Leica were smart they would follow the 20/80 rule of design. An example of this is the SONY Walkman. Critics said that the Walkman was a lame idea because the device did only one thing: played either a cassette tape or a CD. Obviously the critics were wrong.

So I say make the M-EVF as "Barnack" like as possible. I would even go as far as eliminate video, and simplyfy the controls further and perhaps to the point where it is like a CL without a touch screen funcion for even more simplicity. Pretty much make it a still camera only.

Less is more. Video consumes a lot of power, so don't go there. KISS: Keep It Simple. No frills. Sometimes moving backwards is moving forwards.

Make a color version, and then a Monochom version, sell mucho cameras.

From a marketing standpoint it might make economic sense. Sell mucho modern M-glass, especially since I suspect the price point could be lower than a rangefinder, and double especially since it is kind of a no frills dedicated still camera.

Cal
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Old 02-19-2020   #16
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Of course, money is an issue. In particular value loss of camera bodies. And marginal utility vs. extra cost for this "edge". A M10 is double the price of a M240 or a Nikon Z7? My used M240 was twice the price of my SONY A7ii. But it isn't twice better. The camera I sketched ("QX" or maybe "CL-2"/large sensor) would be another kind. I used my Bessa-R camera for 10 years. Excellent lenses you can buy one per year at max. It's a long-term issue. I would love to sell all my Sony, Fuji stuff for it. But the camera need to be as compact as my Fuji XE-3...
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Old 02-19-2020   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonnar2 View Post
Yes, you may be right. The "new" CL is very sexy (why the hell they used this name again?). Except for sensor size. Alas, I'm already in APS-C (Fuji) cameras and lenses, and can adopt/crop my M-lenses here. Since I use my Fujis most of all cameras, I knew that the speed dial (manual speeds) is the least important dial at all. It's classic and nice, but can be left away in favor of a "programm AE" dial, which would see far more usage (like the XA? lines have).
My bad suspect is, Leica could already make a full-format version of the nice CL, but refuse to do so, to keep sales of the M-camera. If this is true, Nikon will happily take-over business.
I suspect that, at the moment, Leica feels the FF version of the CL is the up-market SL line. The SL/SL2 bodies have "all the other stuff" that I could wish for, and with the addition of the Leica M Adapter L and R Adapter M (or R Adapter L) make them operate as natively as is possible with manual focus/non-electronic interface lenses. The additional size and weight of these bodies isn't a big deal to me vs the M bodies ... the difference (having had both at the same time) isn't as much as it would seem.

I can't say how well the M lenses work on Fuji bodies compared to the CL and SL bodies; I've only had the latter. I'd say that imaging performance with the CL and SL bodies matches the M bodies pretty closely—which is pretty darn fantastic—due to the Leica lens profiles. I have lots of experience adapting M and R lenses to other cameras ... Sony A7, lots of FourThirds and mFourThirds, Pentax, Nikon, etc ... and none of them achieve the kind of performance I see with the Leica bodies. I've shied away from the Fuji bodies because my experience with them has not been great (due to the quirkiness of the XTrans sensor, and the usual quibbles about ergonomics and menu layout).

I'm pretty darn happy with my kit of CL + M lenses + R lenses. Beyond this kit, I need to go larger sensor (Hasselblad 907x Special Edition on order) for any realistic improvement.

I alway see price and cost being nominated as a stumbling block. Yes, it costs a bit to get in the game. But in my experience, if what you buy into really works for you, the price is worth it and becomes less important a consideration as the years go on ... because if the equipment you buy really works for you, you are less likely to "need" anything more. My Olympus E-1 has worked for me beautifully since I bought that 2003 camera in 2008, and I still have it, still make photographs with it, and it *still* works for me. I've had the CL kit now since I sold the SL about three years ago, and aside from the upsized Hasselblad dream, I've had very very little desire to part with it or buy anything else. I know the Hasselblad is never going to get the kind of use that the CL does, but that's not why I'm buying it. I don't see that satisfaction with the Leica kit changing anytime soon ... it is so darn competent that as long as it keeps working, I really don't need anything else other than to assuage gear lust.

I try to avoid that and do photography more of the time.

G
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Old 02-19-2020   #18
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Henry,

Do a search on Leica Rumors under M-EVF. It does seem like the M-EVF will be coming.

Cal
I may be waiting for this specific type of camera to get out, Cal. On the other hand, I want to enjoy life and I want to have fun with a new camera now.
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Old 02-19-2020   #19
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OP wants EVF instead of RF. How new is this...
But EVF will still not take better pictures comparing to the camera in the phone.

Addressing some misleading information in OP:

Bessa R was awesome 250 CAD with J8 included camera then I purchased it in mint, used condition. Still worth of 250 CAD for sure. But not more.
Within couple of years it became ugly worn out, even shutter blades were showing worn out spots. My M-E has same shutter, took much more pictures and shutter is fine. Any M exterior is much more durable comparing to any R.
And Bessa R while plastic is not small and compact. Just same size with M. If not slightly taller.
Blind out RF patch of R in sidelight is worse than M VF in backlight. And R short RF base is not comparable with confidence of M long RF base.

Q2 is good as it is. Except price.

I wish Leica keeps not just high prices on M. M-E typ 240 wasn't this bad at 3.995 USD. Make it without current huge screen (good for scratches, cracks only), remove as much as possible buttons and use old A7S 12MP sensor to keep price at 3K$ or less.
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Old 02-19-2020   #20
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Like it or not...Japan never made the Leica M replacement..
China..on the other hand...
There's gotta be someone over there..that has thought about this..
As in..
For that Summicron replica everyone is waiting for..
I'm sure there will be a RF camera to stick it on soon enough..
Natural progression of events..
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Old 02-19-2020   #21
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And Bessa R while plastic is not small and compact. Just same size with M. If not slightly taller.
Not be that nasty and wrong to a camera that saved lots of Leica business.
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Old 02-19-2020   #22
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M-EVF

https://leicarumors.com/2019/05/06/t...m-with-evf-apo

Text suggests 24 MP similar to M240. "Alternative to M10."

https://leicarumors.com/2019/01/08/v...leica-products.

Take note of the spread in the dates of these rumors. Also know that rumors that make it to RFF tend to be true or become true.

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Old 02-19-2020   #23
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After eight months with my first digital Leica (M240) I suspect there is no future for digital rangefinders. I will definitely not "upgrade" to a M10.

My first RF camera (which I loved) was the small compact plastic Bessa-R. I have tried some, but hadn't find the Leica viewfinders truly superior to them. They are dimmer in most backlite situations. And then the "lifeview" screens are next to worthless. Expectations for perfection has run-up in the last 20 years and will continue. Even smartphones are very good in picture taking. Excellent lenses - except very slow ones or with distortion - need physical size and block viewfinder area.

What I would buy is a "Q2" with exchangable lenses, which I call "QX" (or maybe "QM"):

- full format (35mm equivalent) sensor, about 47 MP
- M lens mount
- electronic finder with focussing help (loupe or split-screen microprism ring)
- speed dial with locked "AE" and "Sport-AE" with higher speeds
- ISO dial
- programmable lens profiles: distortion, vignetting, exif-tags, redetection of lens setups
- simple menue structure (remember last position)
- make it straight and simple: leave away the rangefinder
- leave away the display as well (instead: bluetooth connection to smartphone/iphone)
- electronic anti-theft protection (suppressible) and inbuild GPS sensor
- size and weight: Small and lightweigt, of a Leica III/ Bessa-R2 camera. Back to "Barnack" style..!
- of course, this is a "outdoor use" camera (weather sealing will be welcome). The SL-2 "studio line" is a separate world.

If Leica don't make it, Fuji will. Or Nikon. Or even Sony...

What do you think?

Cheers,

You're describing an SL/Sl2 in slighty different physical form.
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Old 02-19-2020   #24
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I honestly don't think that I would buy an EVF version of the M, but I see enough people ask for it that I want to see them create it for the stability of the brand and company. I see that thing selling, which is great news for people that want them (and others) to keep making new M lenses.

That said, I haven't tried an EVF since I played with the first Sony A7 and only tolerated it.

I'm probably going to buy a Canon R5 next year, which is the same idea but intended to go out into the wilderness for wildlife photography.
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Old 02-19-2020   #25
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You're describing an SL/Sl2 in slighty different physical form.
Huss,

Check out the M-EVF rumor links.

To me more like a cross between a CL and a M-body, optimized for M-glass, with some of the SL2 thrown in.

BTW the SL2 crushes the SL. To big a jump to put them together.

The M-EVF would be an interesting camera. I don't doubt the rumor. The more it emulates a Barnack the better I say. Strip it down to a bare still camera only, no touch screen required or needed, and the possibility of a "cheap Leica" or one that has a low price might be possible.

The SL2 is only $6K, my SL cost $7.5K 5 years ago. I say the price point might be surprising.

Cal
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Old 02-19-2020   #26
Godfrey
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A fundamental issue with the concept of an EVF-only M is that once you've got full TTL viewing and focusing available, the range of available M-mount lenses is a bit limiting to the body. They don't focus down to close-up distances and there are few longer focal lengths (135mm and up), both of which are primary reasons why photographers like TTL viewing and focusing.

The development of a new M-mount lenses that do focus more closely and/or are longer in focal length would mean that compatibility with existing M cameras is compromised for those lenses.

Sure, you can adapt other lenses to M-mount, but there are also constraints due to the mount diameter when it comes to performance on FF format with large macro extensions and long tele lenses. I ran into these issues with adapted R lenses, both long tele and in high magnification macro use, on the SL when the adaptation included using an M Adapter L.

My bet is that if an EVF-only M ever surfaces, it will have an L mount and use the M Adapter L. At which point, it is only marginally different from the rumored-a-couple-years-ago CM (the rumored and much anticipated mix of CL body with FF sensor) or a downsized, reshaped SL2.

There are only so many ways that this can go. Despite the (old) rumors of an EVF-only M, I really don't see it happening other than as a limited special edition at best, and the costs of development probably preclude that.

G
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Old 02-19-2020   #27
sepiareverb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calzone View Post
Bob,

On my SL2 I can crop to the square (VF'er and rear display show the square for framing). Effectively it crops the 47.3 MP sensor to 31.5 MP.

Really great with my APO 35 Cron which makes a good normal lens for the square. My gal is a celeb, digital influencer, and fashion blogger. She has 724K followers, so shooting the square for Instagram is mucho important.

Know that after importing into Lightroom that the images will be shown in the square, but if I hit the reset button I get the FF 47.3 MP raw file.

I don't see why Leica could not replicate this on the Q2. EZ-PZ.

Cal
Just seeing this after messaging you to ask this very thing!- thanks for this very important (to me) bit of info.
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Old 02-19-2020   #28
narsuitus
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A few years ago, I developed a list of the specifications I wanted in a digital rangefinder.

Last year, I purchased a Leica M10 because it met most of my specifications. However, I returned it because it broke too many times in the short time I owned it.

Here are my specifications:

1. Built to withstand daily usage.
2. Body and controls are ergonomically designed.
3. Has wide rangefinder base like the Zeiss Ikon
4. Has user interface similar to Nikon SP, Leica MP, or Leica M6 rather than relying only on menus, toggle switches, and fly-wheels
5. About the size and style of a Leica MP or M6
6. Manufacturing quality of the Leica MP or M6
7. High quality, fast, interchangeable lenses
8. Live-view LCD screen
9. Ability to hide the LCD screen so that is not visible.
10. LCD screen swings and rotates (similar in design to the Canon G11)
11. Choice of built-in matrix, center-weighted, and spot metering
12. Accurate and consistent, manual and auto, rangefinder focusing
13. Accurate and consistent, manual and auto, exposure control
14. Offers shutter priority, aperture priority, manual, and program exposure modes but no scenic modes like portrait, landscape, etc.
15. Minimum of 5 megapixel resolution
16. Offers resolution equal to or greater than 35mm film
17. Creates RAW and standard jpeg image files
18. Image quality at least equal to the Fuji S5 digital SLR
19. Uses CompactFlash and/or SD memory cards
20. Uses standard-sized generic batteries rather than proprietary batteries
21. Uses rechargeable batteries that can be recharged outside of camera body
22. No built-in flash
23. Uses a digital sensor that allows the user to select horizontal rectangular, vertical rectangular, square, and panoramic aspect ratios.
24. Digital sensor is user upgradeable.
25. Camera software is user upgradeable.
26. Body cost $600 or less
27. Digital sensor is protected from dust.
28. Provides “B” (bulb) and “T” (timed) exposure options.
29. Provides custom color, contrast, saturation, dynamic range, white balance, and noise reduction controls.
30. Has totally silent mode (no beeping or whirling sounds during picture taking).
31. Has both hot shoe and PC flash connection for standard flash units.
32. Minimal warm-up time when unit is turned on.
33. Minimal delay when shutter is pressed
34. Ability to shoot at least 2.5 images per second
35. Ability to shoot at least 24 consecutive images
36. Minimal ISO light meter settings from 100 to 3200.
37. Camera does not have stupid sounding name like “CoolPix” or FinePix.”
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Old 02-19-2020   #29
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Can you tell us how your M10 broke down? In which ways?
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Old 02-19-2020   #30
Henry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narsuitus View Post
A few years ago, I developed a list of the specifications I wanted in a digital rangefinder.

Last year, I purchased a Leica M10 because it met most of my specifications. However, I returned it because it broke too many times in the short time I owned it.

Here are my specifications:

SNIP
....

24. Digital sensor is user upgradeable.
25. Camera software is user upgradeable.
26. Body cost $600 or less
I'm curious if you could expand on these three a bit.

For (24): were you picturing a scenario where you might have sensor modules that were swappable? What exactly was your goal/use-case for this?
For (25): Do you mean custom firmware? What features were you hoping to add to the cameras, how customizable were you hoping for? Picturing something like Magic Lantern for canon?
For (26): This one I understand but I am curious show your arrived at that price point.
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Old 02-19-2020   #31
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As usual, an M10 special edition that looks like this:



And an M-mount camera with a rangefinder-style EVF that has IBIS, WiFi/apps/etc., internal memory, etc.
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Old 02-19-2020   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
A fundamental issue with the concept of an EVF-only M is that once you've got full TTL viewing and focusing available, the range of available M-mount lenses is a bit limiting to the body. They don't focus down to close-up distances and there are few longer focal lengths (135mm and up), both of which are primary reasons why photographers like TTL viewing and focusing.

The development of a new M-mount lenses that do focus more closely and/or are longer in focal length would mean that compatibility with existing M cameras is compromised for those lenses.

Sure, you can adapt other lenses to M-mount, but there are also constraints due to the mount diameter when it comes to performance on FF format with large macro extensions and long tele lenses. I ran into these issues with adapted R lenses, both long tele and in high magnification macro use, on the SL when the adaptation included using an M Adapter L.

My bet is that if an EVF-only M ever surfaces, it will have an L mount and use the M Adapter L. At which point, it is only marginally different from the rumored-a-couple-years-ago CM (the rumored and much anticipated mix of CL body with FF sensor) or a downsized, reshaped SL2.

There are only so many ways that this can go. Despite the (old) rumors of an EVF-only M, I really don't see it happening other than as a limited special edition at best, and the costs of development probably preclude that.

G
Godfrey makes some great points. On my SL and SL2 I favor my Noct-Nikkor and my 50 Lux-R "E60."

For wides a mechanical RF'er avoids the vague focus. Pretty much my SL and SL2 is like a SLR where focus snap and longer lenses do better.

There is mention in one of the two links about the body thickness.

Also I have seen a M10 in use rigged with a 75 Noctilux with the hot shoe EVF. Although in the SoHo Leica store this was a customer's rig, and I know from mounting and trying a 75 Noctilux on my SL how shallow the DOF is on that lens wide open.

Although mucho costly, and both big and heavy, the Leica native glass is really good.

Cal
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Old 02-19-2020   #33
Bill Clark
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What about a LTM Leica?

One of my favorites is my 1936 Leica IIIa.
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Old 02-19-2020   #34
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Quote:
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Huss,

Check out the M-EVF rumor links.

To me more like a cross between a CL and a M-body, optimized for M-glass, with some of the SL2 thrown in.
I read that it will be a M240 sized body, then it will be a dead birth.

I still don't believe it. To omit RF and display will reduce room, weight and costs. The CL is now much smaller than a M10.

And why not add a model with LTM/M39 - good idea, it will improve sales - as well as a Titanium, crocodile leather edition...

Smaller flange-to-sensor distance of the CL will give some room for close-focus adaptors, either manual, or alike the Techart, which works not bad on SONY.
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Old 02-20-2020   #35
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They just made my next camera. M 10 M,

I liked the M 10 so much I bought another. I prefer rangefinders. They fit the way I see and work.

Sorry to hear narsuitus that you had issues with you M 10. I have been lucky with Leica I guess. I went all Leica a little over 4 years ago even for my pro work. Even with the recalls on my original MM and my M-E is have had less problems than I had with my Canons. I went Canon digital in 2005 and had Canon digital for about a decade and I had far more issues with them than I have had with my Leica's. When NATO was in town in 2112 I did some work them and I had a complete shutter failure on one of my Canons. I also had a 1Ds III show up from CPS dead on arrival. The reason I say this is not to rip on Canon. I think they make great cameras, but to point out all mechanical things can break down.

Neither of my M 10s have had a problem or my M 262 that were not self inflicted. I did drop one on my M 10s with my 90 APO on it but that was on me. Both had to be repaired and I was expecting the worst but it was only a short period of time they were gone. Less than a month. That is the one thing Canon had that was just amazing was CPS. There is a location here in the Chicago area (Itasca) and that was very convenient.

I think with all those that like EVF maybe Leica could offer an M sized body with that but please keep it off my Ms. I think cameras like the MM and the M D show Leica is a company that continues to make camera's that no one else will make. And that is a good thing. Because the rest are pretty much the same. And Leica M is a real choice. Nice to have that. I to wish Leica M were cheaper but it is what it is.
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Old 02-20-2020   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
Can you tell us how your M10 broke down? In which ways?
I had mechanical and electrical problems with my M10.

At the time, I had 8, 16, and 32GB SanDisk and Lexar memory cards in my inventory. I also had three brand new SanDisk 32GB SDHC cards. I had a difficult time finding memory cards that the camera would accept.

After I found some memory cards that were acceptable to the camera, I could use the camera for a short period of time then it would suddenly stop working.

The Leica dealer was able to fix it three times but after the third time, he tried to send it to Leica for repair. After he described the problems to Leica, Leica told him to refund my money because they would not repair or replace a body that was formally an in-store demo model. The dealer refunded my $6,500.
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Old 02-20-2020   #37
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Leica told him to refund my money because they would not repair or replace a body that was formally an in-store demo model.
Way to go Leica...lol..
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Old 02-20-2020   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry View Post
I'm curious if you could expand on these three a bit.
For (24): were you picturing a scenario where you might have sensor modules that were swappable? What exactly was your goal/use-case for this?

I loved the modular design of some 35mm and medium format cameras where you can change the view screens, view finders, and film backs to meet your photographic needs.
When I need to change or customize sensor resolution, infrared sensitivity, ultraviolet sensitivity, dynamic range, or ISO range, I want to be able to change the camera sensor instead of buying a new camera body. That way, I could easily change a Leica M10 to a Leica M10 monochrome without buying a second body.


For (25): Do you mean custom firmware? What features were you hoping to add to the cameras, how customizable were you hoping for? Picturing something like Magic Lantern for canon?

It was not possible to upgrade the software of the first two digital cameras I owned. Since then, all the digital cameras that I have owned could have their software updated by the manufacturer. As a result, I decided to never again own a digital that could not have its software upgraded.


For (26): This one I understand but I am curious show your arrived at that price point."

The Nikon F2T (titanium) SLR was my favorite film camera. At one time, I owned two of them. Since $600 was for the new price I paid for each, I figured $600 was a reasonable price to pay for a digital camera.

Before the Leica M10, the most I ever spent for a camera body was $1800 for a used Leica M6.
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Old 02-20-2020   #39
Calzone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airfrogusmc View Post
They just made my next camera. M 10 M,

I liked the M 10 so much I bought another. I prefer rangefinders. They fit the way I see and work.

Sorry to hear narsuitus that you had issues with you M 10. I have been lucky with Leica I guess. I went all Leica a little over 4 years ago even for my pro work. Even with the recalls on my original MM and my M-E is have had less problems than I had with my Canons. I went Canon digital in 2005 and had Canon digital for about a decade and I had far more issues with them than I have had with my Leica's. When NATO was in town in 2112 I did some work them and I had a complete shutter failure on one of my Canons. I also had a 1Ds III show up from CPS dead on arrival. The reason I say this is not to rip on Canon. I think they make great cameras, but to point out all mechanical things can break down.

Neither of my M 10s have had a problem or my M 262 that were not self inflicted. I did drop one on my M 10s with my 90 APO on it but that was on me. Both had to be repaired and I was expecting the worst but it was only a short period of time they were gone. Less than a month. That is the one thing Canon had that was just amazing was CPS. There is a location here in the Chicago area (Itasca) and that was very convenient.

I think with all those that like EVF maybe Leica could offer an M sized body with that but please keep it off my Ms. I think cameras like the MM and the M D show Leica is a company that continues to make camera's that no one else will make. And that is a good thing. Because the rest are pretty much the same. And Leica M is a real choice. Nice to have that. I to wish Leica M were cheaper but it is what it is.
Allen,

As a working pro know that Pete Souza, President Obama's White House Photographer, decided to use Canon's for those 8 years. His reason for selecting a Canon DSLR was because it had the quietest shutter.

I attended a show at a 600-700 seat auditorium to hear a presentation that was sponsored by Photoville where Pete described the 8 year experience. He shot over 2 million images over this 8 year period. I imagine he wore out a few shutters and destroyed some gear along the ways.

BTW he always carried two cameras, and over the eight years he said he only took one week's vacation and was only used one sick day.

The presentation involved describing certain shots that I would deem not only historic, but also iconic. I do not use the word iconic lightly, and to me iconic means you can see an image once and you will remember it the rest of your life.

One image was in the situation room when SEAL Team 6 took out Bin Laden. A detail was revealed and discussion about the open lap top in that shot because it had classified information.

Also he had a book coming out and talked about how he culled and edited from that library of 2 million pictures.

At the end of the presentation someone asked what his life is like now. He spoke of being mighty tired.

Another iconic shot is with Bono playin the beatles song "Norwegan Wood" with Alica Keys in the background. President Obama had turned to Pete and said, "Can you believe this?"

Bono previously asked where he should sit, and President Obama said, "Anywhere," and that is when Bono picked up the guitar and started playing.

So all these concentrated anadotes...

About half a year later the book was available.

I have a Nikon F5 and as a badge of honor one day I jammed the shutter. Pretty much even though the camera is clean, the shutter I would say is likely worn out.

Cal
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Old 02-20-2020   #40
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Thanks for the stories, Cal.
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