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Find a used M9-P instead of going with an X-Pro2?
Old 05-02-2016   #1
Ken Ford
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Find a used M9-P instead of going with an X-Pro2?

I've been an M user for what seems like forever - I took a long break but came back with an M6 about ten years ago. It's been getting less and less use each year because I've almost completely switched over to digital for most uses.

I never had any interest in the crop sensor M mount bodies because of the focal length conversion. With the X-Pro2 I had pretty much resigned myself to changing systems, but now I have to wonder about a used M9-P. Prices on the M9 seem to be down to the range I could tolerate. As interesting as the X-Pro2 is, I would much rather stick with a Leica and keep my current lenses.

Before I commit to the Fuji switch what could I expect to pay for a user quality black M9-P?
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Tamarin or Classic Connection
Old 05-02-2016   #2
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Tamarin or Classic Connection

If you want current prices from excellent dealers, check out Tamarkin or Classic Connection. Both have used M9's and M9-P's currently listed and both allow returning the camera if you are not happy.
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Old 05-02-2016   #3
Ken Ford
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Thanks - but what about private party sales?
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Old 05-02-2016   #4
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The M9 is not a cropped sensor. The X-Pro2 is an APS-C if I recall correctly.
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Old 05-02-2016   #5
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I looked at the X-Pro 1, or almost did, before buying the M9-P. The Fuji route would inevitably have led to serial acquisition of lenses, maybe upgrade to X-Pro 2, and no doubt, eventually, an M9-P anyway. By going with the digital Leica I had already nearly all the lenses I would ever want, from 1932 to 2012. OK, I did buy a couple more. But I am set. And I am not upgrading from the M9-P unless I have to. I have been so happy with it. So I reckon it is still a good option over a new system and the unpredictability of that.
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Old 05-02-2016   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by View Range View Post
The M9 is not a cropped sensor. The X-Pro2 is an APS-C if I recall correctly.
Right - I mentioned that as a reason I've never considered an M8 variant. And the XP2 is cropped, but I'd be moving to their glass if I switched.

My choices are stay with Leica and get a used M9-P or switch entirely over to Fuji. I'd probably keep my 35 and 75 if I switched, but only against the possibility of getting a future Leica full frame body. And if I'm going to do that, why not just bite the bullet now?
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Old 05-02-2016   #7
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Check dealer prices and knock off 10-20 percent. Check classified here. Don't see much reason for M9P over M9 or ME.
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Old 05-02-2016   #8
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I'm fortunate to have several cameras but if I were down to one I would have to go with the Fuji for only one reason and that would be the versatility. It can do Tele, it can do Macro and from what I've read, the IQ of the 2 is significantly better than the 1. If that's the case there is even more reason to go that route. I've been pretty happy with my X-Pro1 once the software folks caught up with the X-trans sensor issues. Not as good as my M9, but darn close.
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Old 05-02-2016   #9
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For me, the attraction of the M9-P is the chrome option, Leica script, and removal of the meatball. Pure vanity, I know.
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Old 05-02-2016   #10
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My vote would be with the full frame M9-P. If you could find a used M9 or ME, since the sensor is the same you would most likely save a few dollars as well.

I owned a M9 for four years and loved it. The option to replace the sensor or take a large credit from Leica for the M9 and put towards a new M-P 240 was to tempting and I went that route. If you do go with the M9-P, M9, or ME check out the sensor and see if it has been replaced or still the original. Leica did state they would replace the sensor on the M9 if the corrosion caused damage to the sensor even if it is out of warranty.

Good luck with your decision.
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Old 05-02-2016   #11
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You cannot go wrong with either to be honest. I would weigh the following:
  • AF or MF
  • FF vs. APSC
  • CMOS vs. CCD
  • High ISO vs. Low ISO
  • Weight
  • Cost

After considering all of that, I would think about the CCD again. I'm not a fan since I truly like the high ISO of my Df and X-Pro2. I'd seriously consider a used M240 for about $1000-1500 more. I consider it an infinitely more useful camera. I photograph in low light a lot though and have a bit of a tumor in my hands.
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Old 05-02-2016   #12
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Food for thought...
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Old 05-02-2016   #13
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Hey, don't forget, the M9-P is just dead sexy:


Leica M9-P With Zeiss C-Sonnar 50/1.5, January 22, 2016 by Maggie Osterberg, on Flickr
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Old 05-02-2016   #14
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M9.

If you enjoy simplicity and rangefinder focusing the m9 is amazing.

I recently picked up an xe-2 and while a very nice camera it still feels like a computer that takes photos rather than a camera. The m9 removes this degree of separation. Also as nice as the Fuji sensor is, the ccd in the m9 is really something special.
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Old 05-02-2016   #15
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I almost regret having sold my X100 and gotten the X-Pro1 instead... I did it for the interchangeable lens factor-appeal... For some reason, I'm just not happy or "bonding" with that camera. I grab it and use it because I bought it. Just that.

Prices for used full-frame Leicas are all over the place. They show up here for peanuts (comparatively speaking, you get my drift) or fairly high—from $2900 to $4000.

I've been entertaining the idea... but to spring for one of them, I'd have to sell my Summilux 35 first. And, at this point, I'm finding myself very willing to do it. The Fuji just doesn't do it for me.
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Old 05-02-2016   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ford View Post
Before I commit to the Fuji switch what could I expect to pay for a user quality black M9-P?
M9 prices are already below X-Pro2 prices. M9-P prices should be about at the level of X-Pro2 + a lens.

Significantly pricier M9/M9-P cameras can also be found, especially when they have gone through the sensor change.
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Old 05-02-2016   #17
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When it comes to digital photography, Leicas aren't anything special. The X-Pro2 offers better IQ and lower noise in high ISOs than the M9-P.
Get an X-Pro2, an M to Fuji X adapter and a Summicron and you will be happier than ever.
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Old 05-02-2016   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ford View Post
Right - I mentioned that as a reason I've never considered an M8 variant. And the XP2 is cropped, but I'd be moving to their glass if I switched.

My choices are stay with Leica and get a used M9-P or switch entirely over to Fuji. I'd probably keep my 35 and 75 if I switched, but only against the possibility of getting a future Leica full frame body. And if I'm going to do that, why not just bite the bullet now?
Why put off doing what you really want to? (unless you can't afford it)
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Old 05-02-2016   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ford View Post
I've been an M user for what seems like forever - I took a long break but came back with an M6 about ten years ago. It's been getting less and less use each year because I've almost completely switched over to digital for most uses.

I never had any interest in the crop sensor M mount bodies because of the focal length conversion. With the X-Pro2 I had pretty much resigned myself to changing systems, but now I have to wonder about a used M9-P. Prices on the M9 seem to be down to the range I could tolerate. As interesting as the X-Pro2 is, I would much rather stick with a Leica and keep my current lenses.

Before I commit to the Fuji switch what could I expect to pay for a user quality black M9-P?
I would not do it.
The M9 is an old camera with some major issues.
Leica is a weird company with a strange relationship to their older "child".
If you travel at all and require reliability or need low light performance there are much better options (including options from Leica).
If you have other digital cameras and just want the M9 for fun go for it.
If it's to be your workhorse..... think long and hard would be my advise.

Others will surely disagree .... I think of the M9 as the "Sunday Driver" of digital cameras.
Super fun for a sunny day down to the farmers market but, not something you want to take for a drive down to South America or Around the World trip
Personally I would move up to the M240 if i had to have a rangefinder.

Best!
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Old 05-03-2016   #20
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For the price of a m9p you could have a m9 and an xpro1.
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Old 05-03-2016   #21
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I have owned and used three M8 cameras, two M 9 ones, presently still have an M9, Monochrom and M240, and the cameras have never let me down - and I travel extensively and into harsh conditions. Yes, they need maintenance from time to time, and on rare occasions a repair, but so do other cameras.
I would not let that argument distract me - in my experience it comes from reading too much on Internet forums.

The RX1 is a nice camera, but in terms of use it does not come close to a digital M. Nor does it offer anything special in image quality, except for in-camera noise reduction (not bad at all btw)

reading your post, I would go for the M9-P. Or wait for the M240 prices to come down as soon as the new M hits the market.
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Old 05-03-2016   #22
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Leica M9, Full frame, $3200 (used, good condition)
Fujifilm XPro-2 , crop/apsc ,$1850 (new)

You can consider Sony A7 series as well, full frame

Happy shopping..

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Old 05-03-2016   #23
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I wouldn't bother buying m9p I would either go cheaper with an m9 or just a little bit more for m240.
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Old 05-03-2016   #24
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Quote:
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M9 prices are already below X-Pro2 prices. M9-P prices should be about at the level of X-Pro2 + a lens.
No they are not...
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Old 05-03-2016   #25
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You already have M/LTM lenses you like.

So far you are not handicapped by low light conditions.

In my view there is only one disadvantage of pursuing any of the M9 variants. Unless the first generation sensor assembly has been upgraded to the new IR filter version, sooner or later the camera will have to go back to Leica for a new sensor. No one can predict when an original M9 sensor assembly will delaminate. One can only say it at some point it will delaminate.

You own other cameras. Being without the M9 for 1 to 4 months might not be an issue for you (right now 4 months seems to be the U.S. turn around time for normal citizens?) .

The X-Pro 2 body/lens system is a good one. The XF lenses combined with its data stream technology overcome the perceived disadvantages of the APS-C sensor area. With the Fujifilm M adapter you can repurpose some of your M lenses. It is possible to use the X-Pro 2 as a virtual RF camera as the AF can be operated manually with XF lenses. It has effective focusing aids for M lenses.

My advice is to find a nice pre-owned M240. The user experience will be close to using your M6. The signal-to-noise ratio and dynamic range is almost identical to the X-Pro 2's. In my view a M240 delivers more value per dollar spent compared to a M9.

However, I do not embrace the 'CCD sensor assemblies delivers the best possible rendering' voodoo. If you believe that, than buy a nice M9 and accept the inevitable inconvenience of a sensor replacement.
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Old 05-03-2016   #26
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The xp1 (let alone the xp2) gives significantly better files than the M9 at anything above base ISO. To be controversial, I even prefer the xp1 files to the M240 at medium to high ISO. I'm not a fan of Leica IQ, but I do understand the user experience is pretty special and you have some enviable lenses.

Personally, I would go back to the M6 and stock up on film for the moment. If you're not in a rush M9-P prices will be coming down in the near future because of that new M and the early buyers premium on the xp2 will wear off.
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Old 05-03-2016   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelwj View Post
Why put off doing what you really want to? (unless you can't afford it)

That's kind of my thought process. For that matter I could even afford a new Leica RF, but I won't let myself spend that kind of money (I keep telling myself this, anyways.)

The M9-P appeals much more to me than the M9 - it's all about the cosmetics. Shallow, I know - but there it is.
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Old 05-03-2016   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willie_901 View Post
You already have M/LTM lenses you like.

So far you are not handicapped by low light conditions.

In my view there is only one disadvantage of pursuing any of the M9 variants. Unless the first generation sensor assembly has been upgraded to the new IR filter version, sooner or later the camera will have to go back to Leica for a new sensor. No one can predict when an original M9 sensor assembly will delaminate. One can only say it at some point it will delaminate.

You own other cameras. Being without the M9 for 1 to 4 months might not be an issue for you (right now 4 months seems to be the U.S. turn around time for normal citizens?) .

The X-Pro 2 body/lens system is a good one. The XF lenses combined with its data stream technology overcome the perceived disadvantages of the APS-C sensor area. With the Fujifilm M adapter you can repurpose some of your M lenses. It is possible to use the X-Pro 2 as a virtual RF camera as the AF can be operated manually with XF lenses. It has effective focusing aids for M lenses.

My advice is to find a nice pre-owned M240. The user experience will be close to using your M6. The signal-to-noise ratio and dynamic range is almost identical to the X-Pro 2's. In my view a M240 delivers more value per dollar spent compared to a M9.

However, I do not embrace the 'CCD sensor assemblies delivers the best possible rendering' voodoo. If you believe that, than buy a nice M9 and accept the inevitable inconvenience of a sensor replacement.
I think an XP2 can work for me - I believe I can leave it in MF mode and use the back button for focus on demand. And from what I've seen Fuji optics are great.

But...

I have some great Leica glass that I really like. I wouldn't be happy using them on a cropped sensor (been there, done that with my NEX - I want my 35 to be a 35).

I'm not in a hurry to do this. Maybe I'd do best to sit tight until the right M9-P comes along with a new sensor? That's if I don't talk myself into a new M-D first - that's a body I can get behind. I know next to nothing about the M240, I'll do some research.

I think it's time to start selling off excess stuff to create a sock drawer money stash. At least I have the freedom to jump on a good deal right now if I want to.
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Old 05-03-2016   #29
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Tell me about the M-P M240... as I mentioned upthread I'm not well versed in Leica DRFs.
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Old 05-03-2016   #30
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imo if there's an itch for leica and existing leica glass, only a leica will do, just my 2c. a 9-P is a good-looking digital camera, be sure to get one with replaced non-corrosion sensor.
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Old 05-03-2016   #31
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Quote:
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M9 prices are already below X-Pro2 prices. M9-P prices should be about at the level of X-Pro2 + a lens.
Agree with jsrockit, that is super not true.

I've got an M9-P and an X-Pro1, and the latter satisfies my autofocus needs. But the former is really fun and special. I got it from Tamarkin.
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Old 05-03-2016   #32
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No they are not...
Well, yes they are. Qualification: European prices, M9 private sales, X-Pro2 from a store. The cheapest fully functional M9 I know of went for about 30% below what the X-Pro2 costs today. That was an exception, but then again that is 30% below.
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Old 05-03-2016   #33
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Pardon me, but the M9 is an obsolete digital camera. If it was about film cameras there would had been a reason buying it, but it is not.
It is not worth it even at 30% less the price of an X-Pro2.
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Old 05-03-2016   #34
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Nothing shallow about cosmetics. I love the look of my MM, with no lettering or red dot.

I've also got an X-Pro1. Enjoy them both but the user experience is so different. Not sure what I would do in your shoes. I feel like it's too personal a decision to weigh in on.

My guess is if you went for the X-Pro you might always be thinking, if only....

John
This. I've been down that path many, many times with cameras, musical instruments and other things. I tend to go with what seems rational instead of what I really like, and in the end I end up with the latter after a lot of pain.

Maybe I should just cut to the chase, suck it up, get a late model Leica and enjoy it.
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Old 05-03-2016   #35
Lss
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Originally Posted by papaki View Post
Pardon me, but the M9 is an obsolete digital camera.
What is obsolete again? How does that affect the functionality or results?
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Old 05-03-2016   #36
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Well, yes they are. Qualification: European prices, M9 private sales, X-Pro2 from a store. The cheapest fully functional M9 I know of went for about 30% below what the X-Pro2 costs today. That was an exception, but then again that is 30% below.
Ok, fine... but if I wanted to buy today... where can I get one for $1699?
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Old 05-03-2016   #37
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  • AF or MF
  • FF vs. APSC
  • CMOS vs. CCD
  • High ISO vs. Low ISO
  • Weight
  • Cost
Well articulated. Another factor is that there appear to be a series of firmware/hardware problems with the X-Pro2.
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Old 05-03-2016   #38
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Ok, fine... but if I wanted to buy today... where can I get one for $1699?
I don't know where you can get one for that price. I could go and get one for 1800-1900 EUR this week. It would cost me 1890 EUR to get the X-Pro2 today. That's almost 2200 USD.

Anyway, I will take your word that the X-Pro2 is significantly cheaper than the M9 in your market. I mostly operate in my local market.
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Old 05-03-2016   #39
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Another factor is that there appear to be a series of firmware/hardware problems with the X-Pro2.
It seems to be only a select few cameras...because I've had one since day 1 without any issues.
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Old 05-03-2016   #40
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Originally Posted by Lss View Post
I don't know where you can get one for that price. I could go and get one for 1800-1900 EUR this week. It would cost me 1890 EUR to get the X-Pro2 today. That's almost 2200 USD.

Anyway, I will take your word that the X-Pro2 is significantly cheaper than the M9 in your market. I mostly operate in my local market.
I see, that's the difference then for sure.
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