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Old 06-13-2017   #41
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Great! More gear to acquire!

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Old 06-13-2017   #42
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Old 06-13-2017   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColSebastianMoran View Post
Godfrey, thanks for the illustration and explanation. I agree, this gives color that's close enough. Nice motorcycles, nice color.

I took the jpg of your negative to look at the histogram, the red channel is well to the R of the others. Red will clip first when shooting a color negative in a camera-scan.

My aim with the cyan/magenta light is to bring all three channels up into the same range on the histogram. So that the inverted, color corrected histogram will have fewer gaps. Any thoughts on this idea?
Actually, I began to wonder if I hadn't made it too complicated. I looked at the raw histogram of the captured negative image, no processing applied:



Hmm. Nothing even close to clipping. (The values have to be up at the end of the histogram on the right to be clipping...) This makes sense: most negative emulsions are low contrast to help overcome the contrast gain of duplication. With that kind of a histogram, the last thing you need to worry about is red clipping.

From that I used a white balance sample on the rebate to pull out the mask:



and then added exposure to get the rebate up to 87-90% (near white but without saturation) in all channels.



Next I used the point curve in Tone Curve panel to do a linear inversion:



Modified that to do a linear inversion with white point and black point clipping (note: since the curve is inverted, white clipping is on the left and black clipping is on the right):



After that I put an S curve in to jazz up the highlights and push down the shadows for a normal contrast range:



The result is an even better overall color fidelity than my quickly edited CCP:



So there you have it: six steps to bring a negative to positive easily and quickly.

There's a bit of a residual cyan in the image due to the wide-open blue sky. It's easier to process it out by exporting to TIFF and then editing the TIFF, since the controls will all be in positive image manipulation at that point.

G
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Old 06-13-2017   #44
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Thanks for this. I'm new to camera as scanner and will likely be scanning a bunch of older color neg material this coming year. Recently scored a BEOON that I'll set the M9 to. I still have a colorhead from the LPL I used when I wet printed, will see what I can rig up. Or what gels I can add to my light table.
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Old 06-13-2017   #45
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My preference when opening scans is to choose the file via Open in the finder bar of PS. The resulting box allows one to choose Camera Raw as the file type, and it is very easy to correct color this way. That last image opened this way, and choosing the car with the white balance dropper would be my preferred method.
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Old 06-13-2017   #46
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Originally Posted by sepiareverb View Post
My preference when opening scans is to choose the file via Open in the finder bar of PS. The resulting box allows one to choose Camera Raw as the file type, and it is very easy to correct color this way. That last image opened this way, and choosing the car with the white balance dropper would be my preferred method.
That's as good a technique as any. :-) I use LR exclusively, and do essentially the same thing.

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Old 06-13-2017   #47
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Off-topic here, but my Washi arrived yesterday! I'm going under the knife tomorrow, but should be up and about enough to shoot the Washi next week. Will re-visit your recommendations before loading the Rollei.
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Old 06-13-2017   #48
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So there you have it: six steps to bring a negative to positive easily and quickly.

There's a bit of a residual cyan in the image due to the wide-open blue sky. It's easier to process it out by exporting to TIFF and then editing the TIFF, since the controls will all be in positive image manipulation at that point.

G
Much much better. I had to wait until I got in front of my x-Rite colour corrected iMac before I could comment.
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Old 06-13-2017   #49
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Hmm. Nothing even close to clipping. (The values have to be up at the end of the histogram on the right to be clipping...) This makes sense: most negative emulsions are low contrast to help overcome the contrast gain of duplication. With that kind of a histogram, the last thing you need to worry about is red clipping.
...


The result is an even better overall color fidelity than my quickly edited CCP:




There's a bit of a residual cyan in the image due to the wide-open blue sky.
Unusual that the sky was so much brighter than the sun. It looks to me like the cyan is from the red left in the capture by your light source, unlike Colonel Moran's. Also, the cylinder head peeking out of the fairing of the duck on the right is seriously badass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsB6IBN8gHc
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Old 06-14-2017   #50
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Could one not run ColorPerfect on the negative image file?
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Old 06-14-2017   #51
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I find it horrible looking. It might be better with the mask tuned out with the light source though. I've found most of the C41/digital camera attempts horrible looking up til now. Who knows?
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Old 06-14-2017   #52
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Workflow for scanning negatives is very easy - you make a photo or scan in linear gamma 16 bit and apply log curve (I can send) then invert and set black/white point convert to 8 bits. For most films this is all so only three steps. Some films require midtones correction with levels or curves eg. Ektar has too much magenta. All depends on scanner spectral response too. If your photo is in gamma 2,2 space (windows) then log curve approx. is gamma 3 so you need add gamma 0,8 (lighten image). I wrote plugin in 2004 for that that works in older PS.

Orange mask removal through mixing light or exposure is a good thing that maximize bit depth and prevent banding.
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Old 06-14-2017   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post
... you make a photo or scan in linear gamma 16 bit and apply log curve (I can send)...
Jack, can you say how to do this? Make a photo in linear gamma? I have been worried about what the gamma adjusted vs. linear data does when inverting the file.
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Old 06-14-2017   #54
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If your soft does not allow change file output gamma then look for monitor or output icc profile. You can create sRGB gamma 1 profile in Photoshop save and copy from Windows spool folder to your soft. All sensor with one exception (new cmosis log sensors) are linear but software always apply inverse gamma 2,2 for viewing on screen (old transfer function of CRT displays) and because of 8bits storage. If you scan image without taking care then it will be too light after inverting. Image on negative is in logarithmic space that's why we apply inverse transfer curve. Please don't use Photoshop's Levels for gamma change because from version 6 it has slope limiters so can be used only for balancing midtones.

An altrenative is to apply inverse gamma 0,8 to lighten image and have a kind of log output. Beneft - faster less storage.
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Old 06-14-2017   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post
Workflow for scanning negatives is very easy - you make a photo or scan in linear gamma 16 bit and apply log curve (I can send) then invert and set black/white point convert to 8 bits. For most films this is all so only three steps. Some films require midtones correction with levels or curves eg. Ektar has too much magenta. All depends on scanner spectral response too. If your photo is in gamma 2,2 space (windows) then log curve approx. is gamma 3 so you need add gamma 0,8 (lighten image). I wrote plugin in 2004 for that that works in older PS.

Orange mask removal through mixing light or exposure is a good thing that maximize bit depth and prevent banding.
Jack can you elaborate? Maybe give a point by point on how do you make a photo in linear gamma 16bit?
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Old 06-14-2017   #56
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Which soft do you use for RAW images?
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Old 06-14-2017   #57
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Here are usefull tools for Photoshop:

1) Log curve: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By...lltOC10a2N1Vlk
2) My plugin for inverting negatives: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By...3pPNGZZR2hIZU0

it applies log curve, linearize image if needed, applies levels, applies Schlick curve for contrast fine tune, changes midtones balance through film gamma settings.
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Old 06-14-2017   #58
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Which soft do you use for RAW images?
Lightroom or photoshop CS5
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Old 06-14-2017   #59
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Old 06-14-2017   #60
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Do you know how to get consistent results with colorperfect? I have it and feel its a complete waste of money. Nearly impossible to get consistent results. It's also VERY confusing to use, completely unintuitive. All the help files are just as confusing. If you can get consistent results with it please share. I would really like to know
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Old 06-14-2017   #61
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Lightroom or photoshop CS5
Have to check ACR module it can do many hidden transformations. I'm sure you can use my plugin to save .amp inversion curve without levels and import into ACR. Just write file gamma 2,2 in settings.


Maybe also try RPP or DCRAW:
http://www.mit.edu/~kimo/blog/linear.html

Post your RAW file.
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Old 06-14-2017   #62
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Do you know how to get consistent results with colorperfect? I have it and feel its a complete waste of money. Nearly impossible to get consistent results. It's also VERY confusing to use, completely unintuitive. All the help files are just as confusing. If you can get consistent results with it please share. I would really like to know
Inconsistent in what way? If you produced a roll of negative film with absolutely consistent exposure and had it scanned with absolutely the same exposure, there should be absolutely zero work needed after setting the ColorPerfect parameters on one shot, saving the parameters and using them on next frames from that roll.

95% of the time my only "interaction" with CP is picking neutral point. My "yet another CP tutorial" would be VERY short. The "Ducati" inversion was a 20 second deal. That's because I wanted it to look like a finished picture. Otherwise I spend less in CP because I work on the image later in Lightroom.
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Old 06-14-2017   #63
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Off-topic here, but my Washi arrived yesterday! I'm going under the knife tomorrow, but should be up and about enough to shoot the Washi next week. Will re-visit your recommendations before loading the Rollei.
Good luck with your surgery!

When you're back to it, be sure to join in the Washi W Development thread. I'm posting reports about all of my Washi experiences there, and notes on use, etc.

G
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Old 06-14-2017   #64
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Unusual that the sky was so much brighter than the sun. It looks to me like the cyan is from the red left in the capture by your light source, unlike Colonel Moran's. Also, the cylinder head peeking out of the fairing of the duck on the right is seriously badass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsB6IBN8gHc
Standard 900SS Mike Hailwood Replica fare.

The cyan has nothing to do with the light source or some deficiency in the basic processing. I just didn't remove it as I felt that was something I'd do in a finish rendering step past the inversion and foundation processing. I don't like working fine details like that with the inverted controls.

G
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Old 06-14-2017   #65
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Originally Posted by stompyq View Post
Do you know how to get consistent results with colorperfect? I have it and feel its a complete waste of money. Nearly impossible to get consistent results. It's also VERY confusing to use, completely unintuitive. All the help files are just as confusing. If you can get consistent results with it please share. I would really like to know
I trialed CP and couldn't see any particular benefit for my workflow. I get just as good or better results when I do color neg to positive conversions without it, and found it a waste to spend any more time learning it.

My photos of the Ducatis, btw, are not what I'd consider "finished" renderings. I presented them as an example of simple color negative inversion workflow solutions.

G
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Old 06-14-2017   #66
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Here is your photo linearized (gamma 2,2) and then converted to log, inverted and Levels applied. All in PS 6 (old).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_6898.jpg (49.1 KB, 21 views)
File Type: png IMG_6897.PNG (8.3 KB, 10 views)
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Old 06-14-2017   #67
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Have to check ACR module it can do many hidden transformations. I'm sure you can use my plugin to save .amp inversion curve without levels and import into ACR. Just write file gamma 2,2 in settings.


Maybe also try RPP or DCRAW:
http://www.mit.edu/~kimo/blog/linear.html

Post your RAW file.
Thank you!! I will give this a go and post the results
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Old 06-14-2017   #68
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Here is your photo linearized (gamma 2,2) and then converted to log, inverted and Levels applied. All in PS 6 (old).
You'll have to explain more about what your process is and what problem it strives to overcome that the process I showed can't handle. What do the curves mean in the context of this example? Et cetera. There's just a lot of missing information that makes it difficult to understand what advantage you're striving to achieve.

Thanks!
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Old 06-14-2017   #69
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My workflow is very simple. First you debayer your RAW image from digital camera which is linear to luminance (dark on screen). Then you apply LOG curve because this is how film store luminance so then image is linear to image recorded on negative. Then you do simple inversion and set black point (orange mask removal) and white point using levels. You can put everything in one curve and treat all the frames from negative. If you underexposed or overexposed use Schlick curve for correction. This is great because you keep film character. If you want increase saturation then convert to linear image (gamma 2,2) apply 3x3 matrix (Photoshop algorithm is ok but could be better) and inverse gamma 2,2. If you increase saturation in log-gamma domain then colors will be too bright - even Fuji XT2 with great color science does that but ok a matter of taste.
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Old 06-14-2017   #70
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if your image is gamma 2,2 and you removed orange mask with Levels then conversion curve is very gentle because you are almost in LOG space. See screenshot from my plug-in.
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File Type: jpg Untitled-2 copy.jpg (15.6 KB, 8 views)
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Old 06-14-2017   #71
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I'm happy to see someone else uses CP sparingly and leaves other corrections to later in the workflow. I use CP for one specific purpose which is to make the photograph positive. I don't even click a neutral grey but only cycle through the colour versions using the Restore settings button. Then I OK out, spot as necessary in Photoshop and save the TIFF, which becomes my original file.

Incidentally here's a first draft of an article I recently wrote about my workflow. The CP bit is towards the end.

br
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Inconsistent in what way? If you produced a roll of negative film with absolutely consistent exposure and had it scanned with absolutely the same exposure, there should be absolutely zero work needed after setting the ColorPerfect parameters on one shot, saving the parameters and using them on next frames from that roll.

95% of the time my only "interaction" with CP is picking neutral point. My "yet another CP tutorial" would be VERY short. The "Ducati" inversion was a 20 second deal. That's because I wanted it to look like a finished picture. Otherwise I spend less in CP because I work on the image later in Lightroom.
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Old 06-14-2017   #72
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Old 06-14-2017   #73
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Thank you for sharing this, it is very interesting to compare workflows, I think. I leave all such tweaking to Adobe Camera Raw.

br
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Ok, I took screenshots of what I would do (I don't have a digital camera so I just used my workflow for scans from... scanners):

Crop to single frame (to show that adjustments to single frame can be easily carried to next frame):



Open in CP...



... and cyce to 'Fresh' (I have CP setup so that it automatically starts with settings from previous frame applied):



Pick neutral point (probably the road or white car, CP doesn't care if you pick 18% grey or almost pure white, just as long as it's neutral):



Adjust "Black" and "BP Tails" so that there is no or very little clipping:



Saturation and gamma so it's not as flat (otherwise I don't do that and bring contrast up in Lightroom):



"OK" out of CP, in PS undo CP inversion and cropping, open CP again with full frame. If you have CP set up to apply previous characterisations...



... the full frame picture will be already finished:



Color blind person can do it. Final picture has fully open shadows, no clipping in highlights, doesn't have ridiculous color shifts, it's flat so you can process the sh** out of it.

And I understand that if you are after Frontier/Noritsu look straight out of CP... it won't give you that*.


* I don't know how to do that
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Old 06-14-2017   #74
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Quote:
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My workflow is very simple. ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by brbo View Post
Ok, I took screenshots of what I would do ...
Sorry, but both your workflow descriptions sound impenetrably complicated to me.

My last workflow example can be summarized step by step as:
  1. Import capture into Lightroom
  2. Sample area of rebate with WB dropper to filter out mask
  3. Use Basics / Exposure slider to set rebate to unsaturated white.
  4. Use Tone Curve / point curve to invert image.
  5. Use Tone Curve / point curve to set black point and white point.
  6. Use Tone Curve / point curve to apply gamma correction curve.
  7. Export capture with reimport to create TIFF positive
  8. Do finish editing per your taste.

Notes:
  • Steps 4,5,6 can be collapsed into a Develop preset.
  • Step 7 can be an Export preset.
  • All the operations can be applied to as many or as few negative images as you please at the same time, depending on how similar a batch of negative captures might be.

Another important note has to do with the goal of the exercise: I'm not trying to emulate some film characteristic. I'm trying to invert and correct a color negative to make a good pleasing photograph.

Can you simply and clearly describe your workflow in a similar way so that I can understand what the operations and their purposes are?

thanks,
G
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Old 06-14-2017   #75
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Thank you for sharing this, it is very interesting to compare workflows, I think. I leave all such tweaking to Adobe Camera Raw.

br
Philip
In your workflow that pick neutral point in CP step. That's where the entire thing falls apart since everything changes depending on where you pick as a neutral point. It works for some images very well. for others, it fails spectacularly. Sorry. I've done what your doing and it doesn't work
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Old 06-14-2017   #76
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Godfrey - you must understand color science basics. Is Curve/Levels complicated just two steps?

Here is inversion curve from gamma 2,2 image into log space so you can apply in any Adobe application and set black/white point. Two steps only.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By...Uxsend6LTl2eGc
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Old 06-14-2017   #77
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brbo's color is super clean though, Godfrey, you stopped before you got to that point, with the massive cyan cast still there.
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Old 06-14-2017   #78
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Hey, friends and fellow shooters --

Let's avoid competition of workflows and results.

My aim in starting this thread is to understand what's going on. I have learned that the orange mask is not uniform; it's strongest in unexposed areas of the color negative and weakest where the negative is darkest. I cannot tell yet if this makes a difference.

My original question was much more limited: Is there an advantage in using Cyan/Magenta illumination vs. white light when doing the camera-scan? It seemed intuitive to me, but I'm still not sure I've seen a difference. Will do a comparison soon.

Again, I'll say that the options in PS Curves "Auto" seem like a breakthrough to me.

JZagaja, thanks for your comments, links, and pointer to the plug-in. I frankly haven't digested all this, but will give it all a serious look. I have long been concerned that the non-linearity of tonal representation in the digital file would be a problem when inverting color negative images.

My best regards to all!
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Old 06-14-2017   #79
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My original question was much more limited: Is there an advantage in using Cyan/Magenta illumination vs. white light when doing the camera-scan? It seemed intuitive to me, but I'm still not sure I've seen a difference. Will do a comparison soon.
One thing you can do is while in LiveView, before you take the 'scan' of the negative, is manually adjust the white balance in camera. You would obviously shift it to the blue/cyan end of the temperature scale until you feel that it has compensated for the orange film base.
Then take the 'scan' and process from there on.
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Old 06-14-2017   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
One thing you can do is while in LiveView, before you take the 'scan' of the negative, is manually adjust the white balance in camera. You would obviously shift it to the blue/cyan end of the temperature scale until you feel that it has compensated for the orange film base.
Then take the 'scan' and process from there on.
This is completely irrelevant if you are capturing raw files. White balance is set in the raw conversion. Raw converters simply use the setting that the camera embeds in EXIF to get something representative of the scene.

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