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Old 07-05-2013   #41
lynnb
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I keep coming back to this thread to admire the great photos and scans, Margus. Please keep them coming!

Regards,
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Old 07-05-2013   #42
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I keep coming back to this thread to admire the great photos and scans, Margus. Please keep them coming!

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+1. As do I. Maybe someday can dive into drum scanning.
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Old 07-05-2013   #43
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great images and comparison pics, and great info on drum scanning. thanks!
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Old 07-05-2013   #44
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I am so tempted to jump in, but I think my wife would balk at the investment (time and space), the money I could hide.
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Old 07-05-2013   #45
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Fascinating glimpse into the esoteric world of drum scanning. I've never seen one in real life -- only heard about them on the 'net, like a proverbial imaging unicorn.

I've had a (lowly) Epson v700 for a couple years now. It does the job for low-res Flickr posts and occasional smallish prints. I also bought a Nikon 9000ED for more critical work. The difference between these two machines was noticeable to me. The Nikon gave noticeably better results than the Epson.

But this whole drum-scanning thread makes both the Nikon and Epson seem like cheap toys by comparison.

Mr. Tsiklonaut, my hat is off to you. I mean that sincerely. Your passion for photography seems to be equally split between your technical skills (scanning) and your talent for taking damn good pictures.

Like others here, I'll be re-visiting this thread for the images alone!
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Old 07-05-2013   #46
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I am admittedly ignorant about scanning so please forgive the question. I noticed that many of these drum scans are either MF or LF. Is there a point of diminishing returns in regard to size if, say, I only shoot 35mm? Or is the advantage of drum scans as clear in that case as well?
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Old 07-05-2013   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsiklonaut View Post

Joonas by tsiklonaut, on Flickr












Motionless motion... by tsiklonaut, on Flickr











Gone Swimming by tsiklonaut, on Flickr










Crops by tsiklonaut, on Flickr












Within Space by tsiklonaut, on Flickr
Lovely 1100 i have got a Kalahari Yellow one and great shots
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Old 07-06-2013   #48
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Cheers guys, so many good feedback here. good to know that I'm not the only one who's slightly pervy about those PMTs


Quote:
Originally Posted by ashfaque View Post
Hello Margus,

I'm stunned. I feel like throwing away the free Epson scanner I got few months ago. Once I'm back to UK, I hope to send some old (from 80's) negs (35 and MF) to you.

Do you have any (youtube) video as to how you scan them or in general a brief overview about PMT scanning techniques? I don't have money, time or intetion to get into such highly technical stuff. I am just very curious about the whole machine and the process after seeing your stunning images and the accompanying notes you've kindly posted.
Don't throw away your Epson - when you IT8-calibrate and use good film holder it's decent for 4x5". But questionable on medium format and definitely poor on 35mm.

Just PM or e-mail me if you're interested to have some of your work drumscanned.


YouTube video on drumscanning sounds like a plan to consider in the future. I'd love to help analog-users community, introducing some drumscanning and giving some tips and tricks on this "dying art" of scanning. I have to motivate myself more!


Quote:
Originally Posted by thereabouts View Post
The thing is that a drum scanner is so acurate (the pixel by pixel scanning) that it will pick up every grain on the film sometimes. So well developed film was crucial. Garbage in, garbage out was a mantra often heard.

Also 35mm films often resulted in quite noisy scans – medium and large format was best. Especially for the front covers of brochures and magazines, when the digital resolution had to be very high. So, ironically, sometimes I've found that a decent 'low-end' scanner can produce more 'usable' results, simply because it doesn't pick up as many 'artefacts' as a higher end scanner.
Yep, those probably were the "golden" times (90s) on drum scanners when they had high-throughput (=big $$$) and often the operators cut corners to get huge loads of negs/positives through them w/o wasting time doing it properly for each particular requirement, let alone use their equipment advantages to full.

Film's haydays are long over and modern day drum scanning is now fully a high-end niche market and the operator must meet all the demands of the client for each batch or even for each frame.

The very first simple trick is wet-mounting that was often neglected in the past and still is today in some cases since it requires some dedicated handwork on drums. This optical effect, when the negative or positive sits in specialized liquid (or some cases: gel), considerably reduces grain effect, increases dynamic range and, for the lack of a better word: adds "authority" to scans, especially to the color work. Another benefit of the wet-mounting is that it hides most of dust and removes large part of the scratches (unless it doesn't "cut" into emulsion itself, i.e. damaging the usable info) and other defects of the film. You lose some of the sharpness with the wet-mount, but you gain in overall tonality, dust and defects removal.

Then there's the second trick, and IMO one of the main distinct advantages of elite drum scanners: the adjustable scanning aperture. Some cheaper drum scanners don't have this or just have a couple of usable apertures. Adjustable aperture is what separates the elite drum scanners from CCD scanners that do not have adjustable aperture (meaning they scan with only one aperture in every setting - basically they're a "one trick pony" in pixel-level in comparison).

Adjustable aperture on drum scanners is similar to the aperture used on a photographic lens, but not at the whole frame level (i.e. you can't simulate this with dSLR macro lens scanning by adjusting lens aperture) but on a microscopic pixel level - you can adjust DoF and detail rendering sharpness with it on pixel level, each adjustment direction with its own compromise like with a normal lens aperture (with smaller aperture you'll lose some light, with bigger aperture you'll lose some detail).

The drumscanning "trick" taming those very grainy films is to use bigger scanning apertures. Optimum aperture for the particular emulsion or for the preferred result are chosen through the experience by the operator, mostly decided on inspecting the negatives or positives on the light table through enlarging loupe or running various aperture tests before final scan when looking for that "sweetest" spot (visual grain vs usable detail). Bigger aperture creates "smoother" (less grain but slightly reduced overall fine detail resolution as a payoff) overall image. This can be used also as contra-effect: using very small scanning apertures to "enhance" the grain, on some images that can work wonders as well where visible grain and noise is actually preferred. I.e. some high-ISO b&w "romantic" films where the client demands highly visible "analog-looking" grain w/o emulating it with software.

Since drum scanners offer the best possible film flatness another less used trick on those very grainy (or poorly developed or underexposed shots) is de-focusing the scanner just a tiny bit off the film-plane. Note you need near-perfect film flatness for solid results. This can work wonders while preserve most of the usable details since you're off the focus just a tiny bit. In some cases this can work well on C41 color negatives since not only it reduces grain but it also "smoothens" those harsh color transitions in shadows as well on those grainy images. Note this is done optically - you can't fully emulate this slight optical de-focus in PP with different blur effects etc. Skillfully performed hardware-based adjustments almost always come out better than the software emulations/simulations IMHO.

But smartly adjusting the scanning aperture is the real art of drum scanning.

When you combine wet-mounting with adjustable scanning aperture you can obtain really decent results in terms of grain reduction, negative defect- or scratch removal while still get highly detailed images.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejasican View Post
I am admittedly ignorant about scanning so please forgive the question. I noticed that many of these drum scans are either MF or LF. Is there a point of diminishing returns in regard to size if, say, I only shoot 35mm? Or is the advantage of drum scans as clear in that case as well?

Not ignorant at all Like with all photography the short answer is: it depends. How you look at it and what do you expect out of your analog work.

There is advantage in 35mm film for drum scanning, but it's not as huge as i.e. medium or large format. Since 35mm frame is pretty small and it's easier to hold flat, dedicated (CCD-) scanners are pretty good in terms of resolution for this smaller format. I.e. Hasselblad's X1/X5 offers some astounding 6300ppi for 35mm frames (while it's limited to 3200ppi for medium format and 2040ppi for LF while it's constant on drum scanners). A true optical 6300ppi is really a true high-end, even in high-resolving drum-scanning terms. So for the 35mm some CCD scanners really perform very good.

However you can't get that "PMT-feel" out of any CCD scanner and this is where drum scanners still offer something "new" that separates your analog works from the majority of others who're using CCD-based machinery. Add scanning aperture feature and other thing is the shadow performance that is in most cases superior on drum scanners.

So it's up to you to decide what you look for, but I'd say drum scanning is a decent choice with 35mm frames.



Quote:
Originally Posted by gsgary View Post
Lovely 1100 i have got a Kalahari Yellow one and great shots
Good to hear here're some other trailbike nutters among us as well My previous GS was a Kalahari, loved it to bits and brings back so many good memories. I had a fantastic time on it in Iran back in 2005 with a brave girlfriend (now wife) who was willing to come with me into the darkest unknown back then, without any kind of support or backup we went to Iran alone on a single bike. But that turned out to be the beauty of it. I took my semi-faulty Kiev 60 camera with me as well:




But then came the reality check: one cocky cager in Poland did an illegal turn and totalled it and almost killed me along with my wife in the process when were coming back from Iran trip - ironically our very last day of the 5+ week expedition, like real-life proof of the Murphy's law. We were lucky to escape alive from this 100kph crash:





Ironically this didn't stop my love for the bikes and travelling, instead it increased it. The bike was so good I got another good 'ol 1100GS - this one and "adventurized" myself, mostly DIY-style. Together with analog (both audio and photo) motorcycles and travelling with them is my other very "bad habit" to be ashamed of since together they all kill my time beyond my own reckoning



On the Beach by tsiklonaut, on Flickr



Ride safe,
Margus
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Old 07-06-2013   #49
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Ride safe indeed! and I'd like to add my voice to the chorus of kudos-well done indeed
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Old 07-06-2013   #50
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Can you make any recommendations for a good used drum scanner off of ebay? Which one not to get or what to ask the seller about the scanner, so you don't buy a dud? I was looking at a Hell Chromograph S3010.
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Old 07-06-2013   #51
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ddddrrrrooooool. Those scans on the first page of this thread are juuuusst ssoooo ffiiiine.
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Old 07-06-2013   #52
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Great work! Shooting AND scanning. As you say, the tech running the machine makes a huge difference.

Makes me regret (again) I no longer have access to the Imacons, and big Lanovia I used for a while. I never tried to operate the drum scanner. Might have to see if I can track down an older Imacon used...
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Old 07-06-2013   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyb70 View Post
Can you make any recommendations for a good used drum scanner off of ebay? Which one not to get or what to ask the seller about the scanner, so you don't buy a dud? I was looking at a Hell Chromograph S3010.
Hard to recommend anything - you need to do your own homework and decide what exacly do you need and plan to do with it, i.e. parts availability, running costs, software options, know-how availability etc. There are many angles to be considered with the drum scanners.

Chromographs - yes! If you have a place to put this monster - the rig only weights around 1 ton, okay 800 kilograms or so

I don't know much about S3010 but the Chromographs S3400 and S3900 are considered among the very best if not THE best drumscanners ever made. Clinical precision and worldbeater dmax, let alone solid build quality that's made to last.
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Old 07-06-2013   #54
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Alaska by tsiklonaut, on Flickr












Baja landscape by tsiklonaut, on Flickr











Within Cactii by tsiklonaut, on Flickr


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Old 07-06-2013   #55
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Ah a fellow estonian.
Gibberish: " Eestlasi leiab igast sadamast. Pildid vastavad vähemalt skännile, super. Väga võimsad pildid ja päris ulme skänn. Samas peab tunnistama, et olen natuke kade. "

I am now closing the computer and telling myself that I dont need a drum scanner, I dont need a drum scanner, I dont need a drum scanner, I dont need a drum scanner....
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Old 07-07-2013   #56
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Ah a fellow estonian.
Gibberish: " Eestlasi leiab igast sadamast. Pildid vastavad vähemalt skännile, super. Väga võimsad pildid ja päris ulme skänn. Samas peab tunnistama, et olen natuke kade. "
Tänud! Ei pea kade olema - jagan neid rõõme ka teiste analoogiinimestega kel kvaliteetset skänni vaja
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Old 07-07-2013   #57
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Old 07-08-2013   #58
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The scans are amazing! Thanks for posting them.
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Old 07-08-2013   #59
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The scans are amazing! Thanks for posting them.
that

but at that size, the detail extracted is not really shown.
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Old 07-08-2013   #60
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I think the scans are wonderful, but the geek in me would like to see a 20x enlargement inset of some highly detailed part...
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Old 07-08-2013   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsiklonaut View Post
Tänud! Ei pea kade olema - jagan neid rõõme ka teiste analoogiinimestega kel kvaliteetset skänni vaja
Õnneks või kahjuks pole mis vääriks nii head skänni

All gibberish. Ill stop, I promise.
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Old 07-10-2013   #62
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Some C41 colour-negative scans:




Rusty by tsiklonaut, on Flickr












Dashboard by tsiklonaut, on Flickr











Yellow by tsiklonaut, on Flickr

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Old 07-11-2013   #63
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Some more C41 scans, Fuji Pro 160 series is really a drumscanner-friendly negative film imho - it offers very good usable scanning resolutions w/o excessive grain that normally the C41 films are known for.


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Old 07-11-2013   #64
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Margus, terrific images!!!

The copper mine...amazing. What camera and lens did you shoot that with?
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Old 07-11-2013   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave lackey View Post
The copper mine...amazing. What camera and lens did you shoot that with?

Cheers Dave,

Wideangle is shot with a Takumar 35mm f4.5 fisheye, the other with SMC 200mm f4. My usual handheld shots with Pentax 67 - there goes the "massive-mirror-slapping conspiracy" theory out of the window about the blurry handheld shots with the P67 system.

Some more handheld shots from the same place:






Here I tried a silly thing and scanned a crop with 11000 ppi (745 MegaPixel/0.75 Gigapixel equivalent for 6x7 whole frame) so that's by no means really practical on most C41 negative films.

But the point for this silly test was that out of curiosity I wanted to see if I can just at least see a guy from the World's biggest truck's window so I pushed it out with levels, but I'm not sure I can see any guy or a orange helmet or not? :]

(this particular truck is on the the top picture in the top row of mining vehicles 4th from left to right - note I pushed this crop to extreme out to see the shadows, so it's not so dark as the original)


Can you find those cars on the previous pic?
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C41
Old 07-17-2013   #66
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C41

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Old 07-17-2013   #67
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If you can operate that motorcycle of yours, you surely can hold a Pentax 6x7 very steadily with relative ease. :P Joking apart, these are amazing pictures (scanning is only important afterwards). Please keep sharing these beauties.

I look forward to seeing some drum scanning related videos from you soon.

Bests,

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Old 07-24-2013   #68
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Time to switch back to some E6 positive drumscans:

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Old 07-24-2013   #69
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Wonderful shots and scanning skill. I'm afraid you won't have to many other peopl posting, but I look forward to more of your results.
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Leafscan 45
Old 07-26-2013   #70
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Leafscan 45

Back in March I bought a Leafscan 45 from ebay that was physically located very close to me. Since then I have cleaned it, replaced the bulb and filters. I also bought a glass mount so I can wet mount my film. All this without any scanning experience, but what the hell why not give it a shot.

I won't get into all of the bloody details about how many scsi cards I bought or why I have two G5's and a PC box laying around. Not to mention the problem with Silverfast and that it CANNOT scan a 3x12 cm strip @5080dpi in both SF for Windows or SF for Mac with out a) totally crashing on the Windows machine or b) distorting the image on the Mac side. Does not matter if I use a Ratoc adapter, Scsi card, OSX, OS9 or Windows XP... But I won't get into all of that. Bottom line for me if I want to scan a 6x9 negative at 5080dpi and then stitch them together then I have to use OS9 and the leafscan 2.2 plugin for photoshop. In my case photoshop 5.

But hey I like a project :-)

My setup today is a Mac G4 running OS9.2, PhotoShop 5 with the Leafscan 2.2 plugin for Scsi. Scsi Card is 2930 I believe. I forget after testing so many in the G5. I transfer my files wirelessly using an old version of Dave by Thursbay Software.

I developed my first roll of black and white in my life less than a year ago (I'm 52) and since then found a Jobo CPA-2 w/lift on Craigslist for $50.00 and started doing color. I'm hooked. I now have two MF cameras, Bronics SQ-ai and a Fuji GW690II.

As long as I am having fun then I will keep doing it.

The leafscan requires 3 full passes so lucky for me I don't take a lot of shots!

Cheers,

Ned
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Old 07-27-2013   #71
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I didn't think SCSI cards work in OS X or with a G5. I could be wrong there just I've never heard anyone getting one to work in any version of OS X.
I too think the highlights are films ace in the hole, congrats on your results and your persistence.
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Old 07-27-2013   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nbagno View Post
I won't get into all of the bloody details about how many scsi cards I bought or why I have two G5's and a PC box laying around. Not to mention the problem with Silverfast and that it CANNOT scan a 3x12 cm strip @5080dpi in both SF for Windows or SF for Mac with out a) totally crashing on the Windows machine or b) distorting the image on the Mac side. Does not matter if I use a Ratoc adapter, Scsi card, OSX, OS9 or Windows XP... But I won't get into all of that. Bottom line for me if I want to scan a 6x9 negative at 5080dpi and then stitch them together then I have to use OS9 and the leafscan 2.2 plugin for photoshop. In my case photoshop 5.

But hey I like a project :-)
Welcome! Nice shot Ned and thanks for the awesome very first post in the RFF.

Although Leafscan 45 is a CCD scanner, but definitely a high-end side of the scanners.

Know what you mean about SCSI annoyance - it's a tech-adventure in its own to "develop" a stable running scanning combo (SCSI scanner+SCSI computer). I've also replaced multiple computers and SCSI cards, from G3 to G4 and a lot of annoying time wasted on unstable running and experimenting with different hardware/software settings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by clayne View Post
I bet this is some kind of memory/buffer issue related to SF and/or Windows itself. [email protected], 48-bits, is 823MB. Have you tried scanning at 8-bit/channel or in black and white with these 30x120mm images? It'd be interesting to see if that solves the issue. Then again it's a 6000x24000px image and there may be some other kind of internal limitation.
Yep, there are often internal hardware limits. Especially on CCD scanners since they take the samples in multi-pixel "chunks" thus the lens-distortions and sample-merging processes can start to play in distorting/degrading the overall image and geometry. I.e. Hasselblad/Imacon high-end CCD-scanners, where you can scan small 35mm frame up to some 6300-8000ppi while the same scanner is limited to 3200 for 120 film or only 2050ppi for 4x5" film since for the CCD array it's technically complicated to handle large surfaces with this particular technology. Hasselblad users also often stich multiple multiple scans, but the software-merging creates its own set of quality- and geomery degrading problems. With drum scanners there aren't such internal hardware limits since it scans single-pixel-at-a-time, but often it's the software side that limits - usually it's max 2GB per frame (too big files to handle during rendering/copying, especially with the older computers that those SCSI machines usually were). But there are ways around and some high-end scanning softwares natively allow a lot more, some even rediculous 20GB+ per frame.

Margus
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Old 07-27-2013   #73
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Old 07-27-2013   #74
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Hi Margus,

Joining this thread abit late. I agree with your assessment of PMT scanners and CCD scanners. I used various drum scanners and flatbed scanners in my professional work experience The PMT drum scanner delivers the best overall tonal range among the flatbed scanners. Not to say that flatbed scanners are bad, but in the hands of an excellent scanner operator with the correct software, the final product would be as good as a drum scan.
I currently have and use the following film scanner Canon FS4000US, Imacon Precision II, and Scitex-Creo Eversmart Pro II. Because of the limitation of legacy software, I have several options to run my scanners in the best possible mode. Currently using SCSI cable, I can use the Canon & Scitex in OX9.2 up to OS10.1 (Scitex) and OS10.4 Tiger (Canon). The Canon has an option of either SCSI or USB, thus with the original software up to OS10.4.
The Scitex can be expanded up to OS10.5.1 and maybe OS10.5.8 (Snow Leopard) with the very lat version of software and a Ratoc FRS1x adapter.
The Imacon, as far as I know up to Snow Leopard with the Ratoc. The Imacon has the original SCSI connection. Luckly for me I have several new Ratoc.
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Old 07-27-2013   #75
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I can confirm that at least with my Leafscan. I did have several cards that were recognized by OSX and the drivers were loaded so I assume that it would have worked with something. I did see a report that an Acard AEC-67162M card works with a Leafscan but I searched for a couple of months without finding one. It would have crapped out on a 3x12cm scan anyway.

By the way, awesome images in this thread... Oh and Hi, this is my second post... been lurking for awhile.


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Originally Posted by Photo_Smith View Post
I didn't think SCSI cards work in OS X or with a G5. I could be wrong there just I've never heard anyone getting one to work in any version of OS X.
I too think the highlights are films ace in the hole, congrats on your results and your persistence.
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Old 07-27-2013   #76
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Thanks for the welcome.

Very very annoying. I spent hours with different combinations of computers, cards and Operating systems. Not to mention time and money. The thing is, OS9 and the ancient scsi plugin works perfectly for scanning that 3x12 cm strip. It's just Silverfast can't handle it. The only issue with the scsi plugin was it would crash if I selected 16bit scan, but the fix was to disable the OS9 speech extension

I love doing things with my hands, so shooting film and scanning is fulfilling that need.

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Originally Posted by tsiklonaut View Post
Welcome! Nice shot Ned and thanks for the awesome very first post in the RFF.

Although Leafscan 45 is a CCD scanner, but definitely a high-end side of the scanners.

Know what you mean about SCSI annoyance - it's a tech-adventure in its own to "develop" a stable running scanning combo (SCSI scanner+SCSI computer). I've also replaced multiple computers and SCSI cards, from G3 to G4 and a lot of annoying time wasted on unstable running and experimenting with different hardware/software settings.




Yep, there are often internal hardware limits. Especially on CCD scanners since they take the samples in multi-pixel "chunks" thus the lens-distortions and sample-merging processes can start to play in distorting/degrading the overall image and geometry. I.e. Hasselblad/Imacon high-end CCD-scanners, where you can scan small 35mm frame up to some 6300-8000ppi while the same scanner is limited to 3200 for 120 film or only 2050ppi for 4x5" film since for the CCD array it's technically complicated to handle large surfaces with this particular technology. Hasselblad users also often stich multiple multiple scans, but the software-merging creates its own set of quality- and geomery degrading problems. With drum scanners there aren't such internal hardware limits since it scans single-pixel-at-a-time, but often it's the software side that limits - usually it's max 2GB per frame (too big files to handle during rendering/copying, especially with the older computers that those SCSI machines usually were). But there are ways around and some high-end scanning softwares natively allow a lot more, some even rediculous 20GB+ per frame.

Margus
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Old 07-29-2013   #77
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How about Vuescan?
Not many (if any?) drumscanners supported. Which is a pity...
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E6 slides
Old 07-29-2013   #78
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E6 slides


Old Believers church by tsiklonaut, on Flickr












Boat by tsiklonaut, on Flickr












. by tsiklonaut, on Flickr












Baltic Sea by tsiklonaut, on Flickr
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Old 07-29-2013   #79
Ron (Netherlands)
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Old Believers church[/url] by tsiklonaut, on Flickr[/center]

Very very beautiful work! Tried to view them at bigger resolution - at your flickr - but didn't succeed
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Old 07-29-2013   #80
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Tried to view them at bigger resolution - at your flickr - but didn't succeed
Sorry, don't post bigger than web size. I've seen photos stolen before in print-size and I'm particulary untolerant in stealing other's creative work. So for the worldwide public web it's web-size policy for me. For prints I keep my files on my own HD only, I don't use any photosites, cloud or specialized servers etc that can have shady hidden copyright terms, just "well, you yourself uploaded it" answer when the day comes when shete hits the fan (i.e. server gets hacked or EMP takes down everything including backups etc etc endless scenareos - we analog people know why the virtual world cannot be fully trusted ).

However I try to post crops into web when I'm not lazy enough or when people request to see.
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