Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > Cameras / Gear / Photography > Digital Cameras > CSC : Digital Compact System Cameras -

CSC : Digital Compact System Cameras - This new category of digital Compact System Cameras with interchangeable lenses was mislabeled for a time as "Mirrorless Cameras" by those forgetting about "Mirrorless" Rangefinder cameras.  Such confusion is easily understandable, since interchangeable rangefinder cameras were only recently introduced in 1932.  hmm.    CSC or Compact System Camera is probably the best category description to date, although I am fond of the old RFF desigation of  CEVIL  indicating Compact Electronic Viewfidner Interchangeable Lens.   This forum is here at RFF because via adapters these cameras offer an inexpensive way to use rangefinder lenses on digital cameras -- in addition of just about every 35mm SLR lens you can think of.  All  offer the photo enthusiast an incredible array of adopted lenses which was not possible before these new digital formats.   This group continues to grow in popularity and new camera models! 

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

Old 07-30-2015   #41
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Santiago, Chile
Age: 44
Posts: 18,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Pillers View Post
Thanks, Mike. But wouldn't it be cool if Fuji or Sony started building a line of small manual focus lenses. They could hire Cosina to do it!
Well, Sony has the Zeiss Loxia and Voigtlander 40mm...
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-30-2015   #42
Lss
Registered User
 
Lss is offline
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,755
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Pillers View Post
But wouldn't it be cool if Fuji or Sony started building a line of small manual focus lenses.
Nothing wrong with yet another line of lenses, but the easy solution is for Sony to offer one camera with a thin filter stack.
__________________
Lasse
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-30-2015   #43
Addy101
Registered User
 
Addy101 is offline
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,522
Hmmm, I'm wondering if some people have an irrational dislike of Sony

"For me Sony it the company that chases whatver they think is hot right now. And drop it tomorrow for whatever reason that came up when they got out of bed."
Sony stood by Betamax and the Digital Audio Tape even when nobody thought it was hot. Fuji abandoned their SLR line of cameras - who will drop what first?

I once held an X-Pro1, wow, it is huge, heavy and no grip to hold. Compared to my NEX 5 and NEX F3 it felt like a brick, not brick like, but a brick. It might be great in use, but at first it felt like a useless brick. Seeing that camera I find it weird that some people complain 'bout the Sony A7 being too big - the Sony A6000 is considerably smaller and lighter then the Fuji X-Pro1 and X-T1.

@Godfrey - thank you for your explanation. I understand the mark II's fixed some of the faults you describe.
__________________
Das Bild ist ein Modell der Wirklichkeit - Wittgenstein
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-30-2015   #44
ColSebastianMoran
Registered User
 
ColSebastianMoran's Avatar
 
ColSebastianMoran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,758
Sony for me.

I tried to like the Fuji, rented one for a week from Lens Rentals to try it out, but we didn't get along. I found the AF unpredictable and I think the Sony implementation of focus peaking is terrific for focusing with manual focus glass. And, that was comparing the XE-2 to my Sony NEX-5n.

Now using A6000 with Sony and Zeiss glass. Plus 50mm Nokton f/1.5 for portraits.

For long-lens work, I still prefer my DSLRs.
__________________
Col. Sebastian Moran, ret. (not really)

In Classifieds Now: Nothing, more soon.
Photos, descriptions of for sale items previously listed here: this Flickr album
Use this link to leave feedback for me.

Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-30-2015   #45
GaryLH
Registered User
 
GaryLH's Avatar
 
GaryLH is offline
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,185
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillBingham2 View Post
I think Fuji focuses on the photographer's needs (great output) and how to get there (well designed and different bodies, wide range of glass).

Sony is driven by core engineering (sensors, sensors, sensors) and marketing platforms that hold their creations.

m4/3s should have more of my attention than it does as Olympus seems to do as good a job at Fuji does with well thought through bodies.

B2 (;->
I think that was in the past.. I suspect the new alpha series a7 or a6000 may have been influenced by the team that used to design the Minolta/Konica cameras. But I agree w/ u that to me the old new series felt like they were not designed by guys who really knew what a photographer wants.

Gary
__________________
Panasonic LX100, Sigma Foveon, Fuji X and Panasonic CM1
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-30-2015   #46
MCTuomey
Registered User
 
MCTuomey's Avatar
 
MCTuomey is online now
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: U.S.
Age: 63
Posts: 3,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Pillers View Post
Thanks, Mike. But wouldn't it be cool if Fuji or Sony started building a line of small manual focus lenses. They could hire Cosina to do it!
I'd stand in a long line for such lenses, Jamie, for sure.
__________________
--Mike (confirmed midget imagist on stilts)

The photographer chances upon a scene that fascinates him. He longs to be a part of it ... recording the scene and including within it his vicarious representative, the participating observer. --- Geoff Dyer

Gear: more than enough, film and digital

My Flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-30-2015   #47
GaryLH
Registered User
 
GaryLH's Avatar
 
GaryLH is offline
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,185
Quote:
Originally Posted by YYV_146 View Post
If Fuji can "improve AF speed" in three different updates, one might wonder why they didn't bring AF to better speeds in the first place...
They were new to the game..apsc mirrorless. What they did w/ p&s doesn't count. Your competitor will not give away what they did in algos for af speed or tell u what af motors will work in what situation or how much power u need. Their dslr experience doesn't count because they depended on Nikon for the af stuff.

I also think that until the xe2, they really did not think they need the af speed. The x100 and xp1 were more like put your foot in the water to c if they really had a product IMHO. Until they were released, no one thought of Fuji outside of the old dslr and p&s.

Gary
__________________
Panasonic LX100, Sigma Foveon, Fuji X and Panasonic CM1
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-30-2015   #48
GaryLH
Registered User
 
GaryLH's Avatar
 
GaryLH is offline
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,185
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Well, Sony has the Zeiss Loxia and Voigtlander 40mm...
And Batis line as well now for ff..

Gary
__________________
Panasonic LX100, Sigma Foveon, Fuji X and Panasonic CM1
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-30-2015   #49
GaryLH
Registered User
 
GaryLH's Avatar
 
GaryLH is offline
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Pillers View Post
Thanks, Mike. But wouldn't it be cool if Fuji or Sony started building a line of small manual focus lenses. They could hire Cosina to do it!
For Sony, that is called Loxia.. I believe it is made in Japan for Zeiss.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/255...and-production

Gary
__________________
Panasonic LX100, Sigma Foveon, Fuji X and Panasonic CM1
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-30-2015   #50
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Santiago, Chile
Age: 44
Posts: 18,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryLH View Post
And Batis line as well now for ff..

Gary
I thought we were talking about small MF lenses.
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-30-2015   #51
Jamie Pillers
Skeptic
 
Jamie Pillers's Avatar
 
Jamie Pillers is offline
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Oakland, California
Posts: 3,811
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Well, Sony has the Zeiss Loxia and Voigtlander 40mm...
I'm thinking (wishing) more on the line of Fuji XF lenses, MF-style. Imagine their XF 35/1.4 without all the auto-focus gear attached. That should be a lens about the size of the Nokton 35/1.4.. right?
__________________
Talk to a stranger today!

Some Fuji gear; Speed Graphic (gathering dust); Polaroid 250 (waiting for an 'art' project)

Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-30-2015   #52
BillBingham2
Registered User
 
BillBingham2's Avatar
 
BillBingham2 is offline
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ames, Iowa, USA
Posts: 5,344
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryLH View Post
I think that was in the past.. I suspect the new alpha series a7 or a6000 may have been influenced by the team that used to design the Minolta/Konica cameras. But I agree w/ u that to me the old new series felt like they were not designed by guys who really knew what a photographer wants.

Gary
I really hope so, but from what I've seen over the years makes me think of a Japanese GE. Driven by the ability to check off a feature rather than daily use.

Both Konica and Minolta have some great products over the years but I'm not sure how much push back they will have.

B2 (;->
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-30-2015   #53
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Santiago, Chile
Age: 44
Posts: 18,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Pillers View Post
I'm thinking (wishing) more on the line of Fuji XF lenses, MF-style. Imagine their XF 35/1.4 without all the auto-focus gear attached. That should be a lens about the size of the Nokton 35/1.4.. right?
I would think so... but then again, it depends on its design philosophy and price point. It seems larger lenses are easy to make in regards to quality (or at least it is said on the internet as such).
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-30-2015   #54
MCTuomey
Registered User
 
MCTuomey's Avatar
 
MCTuomey is online now
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: U.S.
Age: 63
Posts: 3,211
Fifty posts and we're in the weeds ...
__________________
--Mike (confirmed midget imagist on stilts)

The photographer chances upon a scene that fascinates him. He longs to be a part of it ... recording the scene and including within it his vicarious representative, the participating observer. --- Geoff Dyer

Gear: more than enough, film and digital

My Flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-30-2015   #55
Spanik
Registered User
 
Spanik is offline
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Addy101 View Post
Hmmm, I'm wondering if some people have an irrational dislike of Sony

"For me Sony it the company that chases whatver they think is hot right now. And drop it tomorrow for whatever reason that came up when they got out of bed."
Sony stood by Betamax and the Digital Audio Tape even when nobody thought it was hot. Fuji abandoned their SLR line of cameras - who will drop what first?

I once held an X-Pro1, wow, it is huge, heavy and no grip to hold. Compared to my NEX 5 and NEX F3 it felt like a brick, not brick like, but a brick. It might be great in use, but at first it felt like a useless brick. Seeing that camera I find it weird that some people complain 'bout the Sony A7 being too big - the Sony A6000 is considerably smaller and lighter then the Fuji X-Pro1 and X-T1.
Sadly it is not irrational dislike. I do have a Sony DAT and like all sony stuff it is great if you can live with a few idiot thing that work against it. Like being unalbe to change the recording volume while recording, you have to pause to do that. And it is not compatible in LP mode with any other DAT player. And they didn't even wanted to repair it when still in production. And the way they butchered DAT and minidisc with SCMS made them fail. With minidisc they never wanted to give spec about the codecs either so it failed and then they dropped it. Then maybe there is memorystick. About 8 versions, some compatible, some not. Expensive compared with all other solutions and dropped. Maybe we should mention the Cell processor. Another great thing they managed to push into the ground. Oh, and all those small versions of the usb connector they "invented" and make that interface a cable nightmare. Then there are the audio CD rootkits that install rootkit software on your pc so criminals can pawn it. I could continue with the tape recorder of my brother that spend more time in repair than working.

The NEX series isn't more than bars of soap. Too small to be of any use. I get cramps when I try to use my NEX3. And acid when I try to use its menus. Battery flat in no time, hours to charge it, cord on the charger to short to put it on the table.
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-30-2015   #56
YYV_146
Registered User
 
YYV_146's Avatar
 
YYV_146 is offline
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Durham, NC
Age: 30
Posts: 1,296
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryLH View Post
They were new to the game..apsc mirrorless. What they did w/ p&s doesn't count. Your competitor will not give away what they did in algos for af speed or tell u what af motors will work in what situation or how much power u need. Their dslr experience doesn't count because they depended on Nikon for the af stuff.

I also think that until the xe2, they really did not think they need the af speed. The x100 and xp1 were more like put your foot in the water to c if they really had a product IMHO. Until they were released, no one thought of Fuji outside of the old dslr and p&s.

Gary
Yes - even after the updates the Xp1 AF speeds aren't quite good enough for work that involves motion. The Xe2 CDAF is about as good as the A7S, minus the -4ev focusing ability. The A7S is not always fast, but it locks on when you can't even see the object, which IMO is pretty cool.

But even for the current models - X-T1 and X100T - these cameras just don't feel very fast. Every option has a tiny bit of extra lag compared to, say, an A6000, and the buffer also seems to be shallower. To me that's more annoying than AF, since I only use autofocus on the occasion but often shoot in full manual.
__________________
Victor is too lazy for DSLRs

Sony A7rII Kolari mod

Noctilux ASPH, 35lux FLE, 50 APO ASPH, 75 APO cron, 21lux, Sony/Minolta 135mm STF

500px
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-30-2015   #57
YYV_146
Registered User
 
YYV_146's Avatar
 
YYV_146 is offline
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Durham, NC
Age: 30
Posts: 1,296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanik View Post
RAW's that retain all the information for a start. What's the use of a great sensor if you trow away information of it? Should be a simple firmware fix or extra option.
Because they want to rate at higher frames/buffer, and enable the full 5fps without overheating the chassis. At least that's my guess.

I agree that Sony should provide the opt-out, but the compression is, frankly, not an issue to all but a few photographers with very specific needs. The sensor is still at the same dynamic range, roughly the same SNR, and (under reasonable conditions) the same color depth. They're still generations ahead of Canon designs and the difference shows under processing.

For the matter, I know two photographers Sony worked with when developing the original A7. It's not that they don't work closely with photographers, but they do tend to work with photographers who like and use their products in the first place...hence the echo chamber.
__________________
Victor is too lazy for DSLRs

Sony A7rII Kolari mod

Noctilux ASPH, 35lux FLE, 50 APO ASPH, 75 APO cron, 21lux, Sony/Minolta 135mm STF

500px
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-30-2015   #58
lukitas
second hand noob
 
lukitas's Avatar
 
lukitas is offline
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Brussels, belgium
Posts: 760
Quote:
Originally Posted by willie_901 View Post
snip

The Fujinon lenses are one the three reasons I am, and will remain, a Fujifilm owner. The second is I can simulate (not duplicate) the RF usage experience. Third, the Xtrans data stream's signal-to-noise ratio meets all my needs. I have no issues rendering the raw files. In terms of making progress on my projects, the Xtrans sensor is neither a positive or negative factor.
This.

I have a deep visceral disgust for PASM dials. The fujis have all the essential dials in the right places, and the 16-55 is a wonderful lens.

Never used the high-end sonys, and I wouldn't like to go smaller than APS-C. And I am skeptical about sensors going 'out of date'. They do what they do, and if what they do is fabulous, it will continue to be so as long as they work.

cheers
__________________
lukitas

Gallery

photos by lukitas
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-31-2015   #59
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Santiago, Chile
Age: 44
Posts: 18,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by YYV_146 View Post
But even for the current models - X-T1 and X100T - these cameras just don't feel very fast. Every option has a tiny bit of extra lag compared to, say, an A6000, and the buffer also seems to be shallower.
Agreed. After using other brands, my Fujis just felt slow. It's too bad, they are great otherwise. Of course, we don't all photograph the same way, so it may work perfectly fine for many.
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-31-2015   #60
willie_901
Registered User
 
willie_901's Avatar
 
willie_901 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,632
I don't see any practical reason how SONY's RAW compression is an issue.

Compression can not be done without filtering the data (one must decide what data to discard). A a clever algorithm will selectively filter highlight regions (such as blue sky). The primary result is to average (filter) photon (or shot) noise.

Since photon noise is a completely described by quantum mechanics, everything required to model the filtered data is know. In principle photon noise can be added back into the data if this is desirable.

I don't know if SONY selectively filters their data. I have no idea what motivates them to unilaterally apply filtering. Thoughtful data filtering doesn't bother me as it use to.
__________________
“To see what is in front of one’s nose needs a constant struggle.” George Orwell

williamchuttonjr.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-01-2015   #61
Addy101
Registered User
 
Addy101 is offline
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanik View Post
Like all sony stuff it is great if you can live with a few idiot thing that work against it.
Oh, so true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanik View Post
Oh, and all those small versions of the usb connector they "invented" and make that interface a cable nightmare.
Just like Apple and people still seem to love Apple

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanik View Post
The NEX series isn't more than bars of soap. Too small to be of any use. I get cramps when I try to use my NEX3.
The original NEX 3 had a terrible grip, they improved on that with later versions, my NEX F3 has a great grip. The 5 never was a soap bar, it has a decent grip, even if some people still find it a bit small.
One tip with your 3: use it two handed - your left hand to hold the camera by the lens and your right hand to use the controls. It isn't ideal, but it stops cramping!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanik View Post
And acid when I try to use its menus.
I don't mind the menu system of the early NEX's, but a lot of people did and they changed that in more recent cameras. So, they've solved that for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanik View Post
Battery flat in no time, hours to charge it, cord on the charger to short to put it on the table.
I have no problem with the battery live, it is comparable to the competition: CIPA rating for the A6000 is 420, for the Fuji X-T1 is 350, for the Olympus OM-D E-M5 II it is 310 and for your NEX 3 is 330. DSLR's are better, with the CIPA rating for the Nion D7200 being 1110. Just carry an extra battery.
The power cord in continental Europe is a standard removable cable, just use one from something else if you find it is too short.

Sony for sure isn't flawless and maybe they should offer both compressed and uncompressed RAW's - but some gripes are unwarranted. And yes, it seems I'm a fanboy
__________________
Das Bild ist ein Modell der Wirklichkeit - Wittgenstein
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-01-2015   #62
Eric T
Registered User
 
Eric T is offline
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 720
I have both the A7r and Fuji XT-1. The Fuji is great. I have no complaints.
But I usually carry the A7r. The higher resolution allows me to crop tremendously and leave long telephotos at home.
However, if it looks like rain, I take the XT-1 and the 18-135mm lens.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-01-2015   #63
John E Earley
Tuol Sleng S21-0174
 
John E Earley's Avatar
 
John E Earley is offline
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Virginia
Age: 70
Posts: 1,891
Quote:
Originally Posted by Addy101 View Post
....

I once held an X-Pro1, wow, it is huge, heavy and no grip to hold. Compared to my NEX 5 and NEX F3 it felt like a brick, not brick like, but a brick. It might be great in use, but at first it felt like a useless brick. Seeing that camera I find it weird that some people complain 'bout the Sony A7 being too big - the Sony A6000 is considerably smaller and lighter then the Fuji X-Pro1 and X-T1.

.....
I borrowed an X-Pro1 for an afternoon and also disliked the size/weight (450g) of the camera. I think that Fuji was going for a digital version of an expensive RF camera and I think they hit the mark for the most part so I would guess form factor is a plus for them. I liked the output and the controls seemed more film camera like than any digital I'd ever used.

Since I'd been using DSLRs and was mostly interested in something with a small form factor I tried and purchased the a6000 that could use legacy lenses. I really liked the output, especially the in-camera b&w, and found the menu usage to be a minor issue since Sony improved it over previous cameras. The fast autofocus is great and the video output is unbelievable for a platform this size and cost. Weight is low at 344g.

My biggest complaint is the poor selection of jpg/raw choices but I'm hopeful that that will be updated. Sony has an update available now but I haven't had time to download it; I do hear the codec is expanded.
__________________
Creation stands with neck outstreached....
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-01-2015   #64
ColSebastianMoran
Registered User
 
ColSebastianMoran's Avatar
 
ColSebastianMoran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,758
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanik View Post
The NEX series isn't more than bars of soap. Too small to be of any use. I get cramps when I try to use my NEX3. And acid when I try to use its menus. Battery flat in no time, hours to charge it, cord on the charger to short to put it on the table.
Sorry to hear about your experience with DAT. And the Sony root kit on one or a couple of audio CDs was truly evil.

But, my experience with NEX was different from yours. I had a very good time with my NEX-5n, enough to propel me into the next Sony generation. For me, the Sony implementation of focus assist makes these the cameras I use for MF lenses.
__________________
Col. Sebastian Moran, ret. (not really)

In Classifieds Now: Nothing, more soon.
Photos, descriptions of for sale items previously listed here: this Flickr album
Use this link to leave feedback for me.

Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:21.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.