Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > Cameras / Gear / Photography > Rangefinder Forum > RFF News

RFF News News related to photography and rangefinderforum.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

Leica M9 FF-CCD corrosion - A most satisfactory conclusion
Old 12-10-2014   #1
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
 
jaapv's Avatar
 
jaapv is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Hellevoetsluis,Netherlands
Posts: 8,303
Exclamation Leica M9 FF-CCD corrosion - A most satisfactory conclusion

As published on LUF just now:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan Daniel View Post
Dear Forum Members,

We have been closely following debates on the CCD sensor issue in forums and blogs and take the opinions and criticism we read very seriously. For us, it is important that we offer only technically faultless products. We are therefore particularly sorry if the imaging quality of your camera should be adversely affected by corrosion effects on the IR filter cover glass. We would also like to express our sincerest regrets to all customers who may have encountered this problem.

We have now identified the problem and are currently concentrating our efforts on finding a permanent technical solution. Our response to this problem is a full goodwill arrangement offering free replacement of affected CCD sensors. This goodwill arrangement applies regardless of the age of the camera and also covers sensors that have already been replaced in the past. Customers who have already been charged for the replacement of a sensor affected by this problem will receive a refund.

The effect does not affect the CMOS sensor of the Leica M (Typ 240). Should you, as an M customer, be considering an upgrade from your camera to a Leica M or M-P (Typ 240), Customer Care would be pleased to make you an attractive offer following a check of your camera and under consideration of the model and its age.

We have posted the details of the problem and the terms and conditions of our goodwill arrangement in the News section of our corporate Web site at http://en.leica-camera.com/World-of-...he-CCD-Sensors have provided a link to the currently available Leica M Monochrom and M-E models. We will also be notifying our distributors regarding the new terms and conditions.

We are aware that Leica’s reputation for superior quality and endurance was the driving factor for your decision for Leica. We profoundly regret that we have been unable to completely fulfil our promise to you and our own standards from the outset. We are now making every effort to find a permanent and satisfactory technical solution for this problem and hope that our goodwill arrangement is able to rebuild and maintain your trust in the Leica brand!

Best regards,

Stefan Daniel
Director
Product Management Photo
__________________
Jaap








jaapvphotography
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #2
froyd
Registered User
 
froyd's Avatar
 
froyd is offline
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,957
Good job, Leica. I should have picked up an M9 when people were throwing them out the window :P.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #3
Corran
Registered User
 
Corran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 870
Wow!!!
I was not worried about this supposed issue - glad I didn't flip out over nothing.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #4
Peter Wijninga
Registered User
 
Peter Wijninga's Avatar
 
Peter Wijninga is offline
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,201
Before judging Leica's response as ''a most satisfactory conclusion'', one should have a hard look at the terms and conditions of the proposed arrangement:

Quote:
the terms and conditions of our goodwill arrangement in the News section of our corporate Web site at Important Information Concerning the CCD Sensors // Global // About Leica News // Leica News // World of Leica - Leica Camera AG
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #5
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
 
jaapv's Avatar
 
jaapv is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Hellevoetsluis,Netherlands
Posts: 8,303
That got lost in my copy-paste

It is fine in the original...
__________________
Jaap








jaapvphotography
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #6
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 59
Posts: 7,725
I am relieved.

I feel the "Goodwill."

Now it is all about timing, waiting and being patient. In my past I was waiting for Leica to create and make a dream camera for an old B&W film diehard, and then it created the Monochrom.

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #7
Pioneer
Registered User
 
Pioneer's Avatar
 
Pioneer is offline
Join Date: Dec 2011
Age: 63
Posts: 2,783
For me this is a very satisfactory conclusion. As Mr. Daniels indicated, I purchased my M9, and then my Monochrom, partly based on Leica's reputation for superior products. The other part was the ability to use their superb optics in creating great digital photographs.

I wish Leica great success in finding a suitable technical solution that retains the unique IQ of their M9 series of products.
__________________
You gotta love a fast lens;

It is almost as good as a fast horse!
Dan
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #8
dogberryjr
[Pithy phrase]
 
dogberryjr's Avatar
 
dogberryjr is offline
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: WV, USA
Posts: 1,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran View Post
Wow!!!
I was not worried about this supposed issue - glad I didn't flip out over nothing.
It appears to me that people flipping out is what drove Leica's decision.
__________________
M, LTM, FD, F, Film, Digital, MF . . . Jack of all, master of none.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #9
apostasiometritis
Registered User
 
apostasiometritis's Avatar
 
apostasiometritis is offline
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogberryjr View Post
It appears to me that people flipping out is what drove Leica's decision.
If I understood the saga properly Leica tried to charge owners for repairing/replacing the defective sensors based on the age of the camera.

Unfortunate decision by Leica, if it is indeed a manufacturing flaw.

That said, Leica does not seem to have much luck with digital Ms.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #10
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 59
Posts: 7,725
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogberryjr View Post
It appears to me that people flipping out is what drove Leica's decision.
Anyways I am glad I wasn't mugged. LOL. I'm glad I didn't really have to flip-out because I would have had to do something about all that anger.

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #11
MCTuomey
Registered User
 
MCTuomey's Avatar
 
MCTuomey is offline
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: U.S.
Age: 63
Posts: 3,210
what dan says.

"permanent technical solution" and "attractive [upgrade] offer" tick my boxes. thank you leica and mr daniel.

and thanks to jaap for the post as well.
__________________
--Mike (confirmed midget imagist on stilts)

The photographer chances upon a scene that fascinates him. He longs to be a part of it ... recording the scene and including within it his vicarious representative, the participating observer. --- Geoff Dyer

Gear: more than enough, film and digital

My Flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #12
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 27,972
Sorry SONY ..... Leica is King!
__________________
- Raid

________________
Top 12 Images;

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffg...n.php?cid=7007

http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #13
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
 
jaapv's Avatar
 
jaapv is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Hellevoetsluis,Netherlands
Posts: 8,303
Quote:
Originally Posted by photomoof View Post
"Concerning the CCD Sensors // Global // About Leica News // Leica News // World of Leica - Leica Camera AG" not even close.

http://us.leica-camera.com/World-of-...he-CCD-Sensors

It does appear to be a no strings attached solution, other than the obvious wait times.
Actually, the link in this form does work from LUF.... Does so here as well, it only needed url marks around it...
__________________
Jaap








jaapvphotography
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #14
Godfrey
somewhat colored
 
Godfrey's Avatar
 
Godfrey is offline
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,872
A good conclusion and a breath of fresh air after all the FUD perpetuated on this issue.

Hmm. I have no issues with my M9 to date, but I'd be interested in an update to the M-P typ 240. I wonder how much of a trade-in/discount they're offering.

G
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #15
Michael Markey
Registered User
 
Michael Markey's Avatar
 
Michael Markey is offline
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Blackpool ,England
Age: 66
Posts: 3,502
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...ml#post2841884
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #16
Richard G
Registered User
 
Richard G's Avatar
 
Richard G is offline
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: 37,47 S
Posts: 4,500
Can't wait to see Ikanagas's take on this in his next YouTube video. Yes I can. I'll be out with my Monochrom and M9-P having fun. Thanks to everyone who shook the tree and brought on this just solution.
__________________
Richard
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #17
VertovSvilova
Registered User
 
VertovSvilova's Avatar
 
VertovSvilova is offline
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 318
I felt that Leica would likely be doing this based on their past response to issues. Tim Cook and Apple need to take heed. They still won't acknowledge that all 2011 MacBook Pros are ticking time bombs and eventual doorstops. And any 'repaired' replacement graphics boards are failing too (it's a design issue that Apple won't fess up to.) An almost 2-year old thread about this issue: https://discussions.apple.com/thread...art=0&tstart=0 And now finally a class action lawsuit: http://www.wbmllp.com/news/class-act...ok-pro-laptops The sad part is that Apple easily has the spare cash to do a free fix/recall but instead hopes it will just all go away somehow. But Leica with much smaller reserves, takes the more honorable route....

It's not 100% clear in the announcement by Daniel, but does this apply to all M9/M-E/MM cameras out there? In other words, buy a second hand M9 today and the new owner will be covered, too? And also get the upgrade offer? These cameras will still be taking a bit of a hit on the used market (after all, who wants to buy a camera that potentially might mean waiting for repair, and who knows how long any permanent fix might take assuming that there finally is one.) If the offer covers all cameras, and not just original owners, then buying used might mean some good deals out there now. One can buy a used M9/M-E/MM knowing it will be fixed and/or can also get an upgrade to the M240.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #18
Pioneer
Registered User
 
Pioneer's Avatar
 
Pioneer is offline
Join Date: Dec 2011
Age: 63
Posts: 2,783
I already have several more cameras than I really need so I won't be picking up any additional M9 for myself. But someone who has thought about picking up a used digital M may want to consider looking for one now as the sensor replacement policy is certainly fair.

Of course, as cameras age, there are other mechanical issues that can begin to develop. However it does appear that Leica will still be able to repair any of those as they develop over time.

For myself, I would still like to get some clear guidance from Leica on how best to clean my sensor. I don't really do it myself, I have a trustworthy tech I know do it for me, but I would like to give him the latest guidance from the manufacturer.
__________________
You gotta love a fast lens;

It is almost as good as a fast horse!
Dan
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #19
Corran
Registered User
 
Corran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 870
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogberryjr View Post
It appears to me that people flipping out is what drove Leica's decision.
Doubt it, it's simply prudent to not screw your customers, especially if the problem lies with the sensor supplier and the costs is being passed partly or wholly onto them.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #20
nobbylon
Registered User
 
nobbylon's Avatar
 
nobbylon is offline
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Nederlands
Posts: 2,655
The only reason that Leica have made this offer is because of what has been said and fear of losing repeat and future business. Honorable company with photographers best interests at heart I think not. It doesnt take a genius to work this backtrack out.
When they have a product that lives up to their own and others hype and is backed up long term then maybe their PR damage limitation departement can go home.
I'll stick with my film M's and digital Nikons thanks.
Seriously Leica, get your act together and you could maybe deliver the camera you are always talking about!
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #21
Platinum RF
Registered User
 
Platinum RF is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by photomoof View Post
All computers built in 2011 are eventual doorstops. You know that, but you might want to post on somewhere like Macintouch.com rather than a camera forum.

haha
not true, really, my 2006 Dell D820 is still in working condition with a window 7 OS
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #22
VertovSvilova
Registered User
 
VertovSvilova's Avatar
 
VertovSvilova is offline
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by photomoof View Post
All computers built in 2011 are eventual doorstops. You know that, but you might want to post on somewhere like Macintouch.com rather than a camera forum.
Sorry. But I only mentioned it because it parallels the Leica issue almost exactly and shows the difference in responses to these issues by two different companies. The M9 is older than the 2011 MacBook Pros. Do you honestly think a $3500 17" custom built MacBook Pro should be a doorstop in three years?

All digital cameras are eventual doorstops, too. I don't quite get your immediate dismissal of my post.....
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #23
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
 
dcsang's Avatar
 
dcsang is offline
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Toronto Canada
Age: 51
Posts: 4,710
Quote:
Originally Posted by apostasiometritis View Post
If I understood the saga properly Leica tried to charge owners for repairing/replacing the defective sensors based on the age of the camera.

Unfortunate decision by Leica, if it is indeed a manufacturing flaw.

That said, Leica does not seem to have much luck with digital Ms.
To be fair to Leica (I know.. I know... even I sometimes cringe when I type that...) most of the big problems that Leica have had (if not all the problems that Leica have had) with the digital M's (M8, M9, M-M, M-E) have been due to the sensors used.

From the word "go" I didn't think those Kodak sensors were going to be any good and, so far, to me (my opinion only) I was correct. They should have gone another route but "could have/should have" doesn't fix this issue now or in the recent past.

Good on Leica for doing what they can to correct this issue.

Cheers,
Dave
__________________
I own a Leica and I am NOT a dentist (I don't even portray one on TV!!!)

I have an idea what I'm looking for but it only becomes real once I see it - Constantine Manos

ITS THE MAGIC I SEE IN THE Light, Texture, & Tone
that Intoxicates Me - Helen Hill

My Flickr - it's where I post my RF and P&S shtuff
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #24
x-ray
Registered User
 
x-ray's Avatar
 
x-ray is offline
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Tennessee USA
Age: 68
Posts: 4,123
Quote:
Originally Posted by nobbylon View Post
The only reason that Leica have made this offer is because of what has been said and fear of losing repeat and future business. Honorable company with photographers best interests at heart I think not. It doesnt take a genius to work this backtrack out.
When they have a product that lives up to their own and others hype and is backed up long term then maybe their PR damage limitation departement can go home.
I'll stick with my film M's and digital Nikons thanks.
Seriously Leica, get your act together and you could maybe deliver the camera you are always talking about!
I completely agree and was about to post the same. This corrosion problem Cracked sensors and several other problems have been around quite a while. It was no surprise to Leica this was a huge problem. Don't be naieve, Leica is doing this because they're facing a class action suit. Most companies would have done exactly the same problem. A recent action against Chevy from ignition system flaws resting in several deaths, Porsche and the intermediate shaft bearing failure and class action suit are examples.

Would leica do this again, if they thought they could get away with it, yes they would. Their only goal is to make a product as cheaply as possible and sell it at the highest price. Resution a like this cost them millions of euros.

Sorry no trust here and no future new Leica purchases.

I'm happy for all the current owners if leica does in fact come up with a redesigned sensor. Now what about all of us that spent hUndreds of dollars shipping our defective cameras to Leica. I spent close to $500 in postage and insurance before selling my M9.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #25
helenhill
Beauty in Shadow & Light
 
helenhill's Avatar
 
helenhill is offline
Join Date: May 2008
Location: New Yawk
Posts: 4,992
YAY & Double Yay !!
__________________
Flickr.

A Lover of Leica M's...
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #26
Kwesi
Registered User
 
Kwesi is offline
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 499
Quote:
Originally Posted by x-ray View Post
I completely agree and was about to post the same. This corrosion problem Cracked sensors and several other problems have been around quite a while. It was no surprise to Leica this was a huge problem. Don't be naieve, Leica is doing this because they're facing a class action suit. Most companies would have done exactly the same problem. A recent action against Chevy from ignition system flaws resting in several deaths, Porsche and the intermediate shaft bearing failure and class action suit are examples.

Would leica do this again, if they thought they could get away with it, yes they would. Their only goal is to make a product as cheaply as possible and sell it at the highest price. Resution a like this cost them millions of euros.

Sorry no trust here and no future new Leica purchases.

I'm happy for all the current owners if leica does in fact come up with a redesigned sensor. Now what about all of us that spent hUndreds of dollars shipping our defective cameras to Leica. I spent close to $500 in postage and insurance before selling my M9.
So who's got your trust now?
Your rant sounds a bit naive. I hear that you feel burned. But if you think that only Leica is capable of that...
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #27
nobbylon
Registered User
 
nobbylon's Avatar
 
nobbylon is offline
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Nederlands
Posts: 2,655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwesi View Post
So who's got your trust now?
Your rant sounds a bit naive. I hear that you feel burned. But if you think that only Leica is capable of that...
In my case the last new digital camera I bought was a Nikon D700 when they first released it. I've had zero issues so far after nearly 6 years. NONE.
I've had a s/h D3 in this time also. ZERO issues. Add to that, film Nikons going back to Nikkormats, F's, F2's, 3's, 4 and 5 plus FM series and eventually and currently an F6. Issues? NONE.
I'm a really patient person despite what some others may believe but when I hear some of the supportive [email protected]@@ for Leica digital written here and elsewhere I despair. Even when asked to part with more cash to solve issues that really shouldn't be there I too often hear people defending this company. If they got it right in the first place instead of cutting corners for profit then these issues wouldn't creep out of the woodwork!
I've had an M9 and I thank my luck that I got rid of it before something, anything, everything or nothing went wrong with it.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #28
jtullar
Registered User
 
jtullar's Avatar
 
jtullar is offline
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Pensacola, FL
Posts: 99
How does this work for second hand users in US? Will they still fix the problem? Or do you need to be an original owner?
__________________
BLOG

Flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #29
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
 
dcsang's Avatar
 
dcsang is offline
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Toronto Canada
Age: 51
Posts: 4,710
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtullar View Post
How does this work for second hand users in US? Will they still fix the problem? Or do you need to be an original owner?
Based on everything I've sen so far, Leica will honour this on the camera regardless of who is the owner BUT, obviously, contact Leica to be sure.

Cheers,
Dave
__________________
I own a Leica and I am NOT a dentist (I don't even portray one on TV!!!)

I have an idea what I'm looking for but it only becomes real once I see it - Constantine Manos

ITS THE MAGIC I SEE IN THE Light, Texture, & Tone
that Intoxicates Me - Helen Hill

My Flickr - it's where I post my RF and P&S shtuff
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #30
VertovSvilova
Registered User
 
VertovSvilova's Avatar
 
VertovSvilova is offline
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by nobbylon View Post
If they got it right in the first place instead of cutting corners for profit then these issues wouldn't creep out of the woodwork!
Like the Nikon D600 (profitably made in Thailand) debacle?

I agree that Leica no doubt assessed the issue in respect to the legal ramifications. But they did react and reacted pretty quickly. For Nikon, they dragged their feet until they faced direct legal actions from the Chinese government and a US class action suit.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #31
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
 
dcsang's Avatar
 
dcsang is offline
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Toronto Canada
Age: 51
Posts: 4,710
Quote:
Originally Posted by VertovSvilova View Post
Like the Nikon D600 (profitably made in Thailand) debacle?

I agree that Leica no doubt assessed the issue in respect to the legal ramifications. But they did react and reacted pretty quickly. For Nikon, they dragged their feet until they faced direct legal actions from the Chinese government and a US class action suit.
I'm still trying to figure out if this is, actually, "quick". I mean, I'm not complaining that they reacted but I wonder if they actually did this only as mounting screams were heard online - can anyone confirm if this issue is not the same issue that some M9 owners have been complaining about "all along"?

Cheers,
Dave
__________________
I own a Leica and I am NOT a dentist (I don't even portray one on TV!!!)

I have an idea what I'm looking for but it only becomes real once I see it - Constantine Manos

ITS THE MAGIC I SEE IN THE Light, Texture, & Tone
that Intoxicates Me - Helen Hill

My Flickr - it's where I post my RF and P&S shtuff
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #32
nobbylon
Registered User
 
nobbylon's Avatar
 
nobbylon is offline
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Nederlands
Posts: 2,655
Quote:
Originally Posted by VertovSvilova View Post
Like the Nikon D600 (profitably made in Thailand) debacle?

I agree that Leica no doubt assessed the issue in respect to the legal ramifications. But they did react and reacted pretty quickly. For Nikon, they dragged their feet until they faced direct legal actions from the Chinese government and a US class action suit.
Lets not get into a [email protected]@ing match regarding Leica digital vs Nikon digital reliability as Leica don't have a leg to stand on from day one. I wish they did but they don't and anyone thinking they do is deluding themselves.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #33
VertovSvilova
Registered User
 
VertovSvilova's Avatar
 
VertovSvilova is offline
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcsang View Post
I'm still trying to figure out if this is, actually, "quick". I mean, I'm not complaining that they reacted but I wonder if they actually did this only as mounting screams were heard online - can anyone confirm if this issue is not the same issue that some M9 owners have been complaining about "all along"?

Cheers,
Dave
Yeah, I'm not sure if 'quick' is correct. I'm guessing that Leica was gathering the bad sensors that were being replaced and looking at them carefully. Although that does take time to assess and try to determine what sort of fault is going on, etc..

Quote:
Originally Posted by nobbylon View Post
Lets not get into a [email protected]@ing match regarding Leica digital vs Nikon digital reliability as Leica don't have a leg to stand on from day one. I wish they did but they don't and anyone thinking they do is deluding themselves.
I have no horse in this race (I sold my M9 very early on and decided to stick to Japanese made products for digital.) But I just wanted to point out that lately Nikon is cutting corners (and I'm probably as big of a Nikon user as you are.)
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #34
MCTuomey
Registered User
 
MCTuomey's Avatar
 
MCTuomey is offline
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: U.S.
Age: 63
Posts: 3,210
Everyone can infer as much as they wish regarding the "true" intent of Leica's management on the theory that no good deed ever goes unpunished in our fashionably cynical world. Since we weren't part of Leica's internal discussions, have no access to notes or minutes of such meetings, haven't interviewed participants or any management team members, or done anything substantive to establish such intent factually , such inferences can't be confused with anything like a fact.

The one fact we have is that Leica has announced publicly they will do the right thing in two ways: first, do their best to find a permanent solution to the sensor problem and provide the solution at Leica's expense to affected customers; second, offer a reasonable upgrade path to those who wish to move to an M240.

Not too shabby and enough to satisfy me for now as an owner of a couple of these sensor-challenged cameras.
__________________
--Mike (confirmed midget imagist on stilts)

The photographer chances upon a scene that fascinates him. He longs to be a part of it ... recording the scene and including within it his vicarious representative, the participating observer. --- Geoff Dyer

Gear: more than enough, film and digital

My Flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #35
willie_901
Registered User
 
willie_901's Avatar
 
willie_901 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,629
Congratulations to all the photographers who expressed concern in the various WWW venues. I hope this episode is noted by other camera companies. The problem hit social media and news aggregators during the past 12 hours.

I appreciate no attorneys will benefit from class action law suits.

It will be interesting to see how Leica handles the logistics for upgrades/updates.

There are cameras with the problem that were never sent in for repair. There are cameras that will eventually require service. There are cameras waiting to be repaired right now. Eventually many of these cameras will end up with revised sensor systems that do not delaminate. Older bodies could end up with three sensors; the original, a replacement identical to the original and eventually the revised, improved sensor system. All of this paid by Leica. This sounds expensive for Leica and inconveneint for those in the replacement queue.

I read there are approximately 40,000 M9 system bodies in the wild. If only 25% of these require sensor replacements, approximately 40 cameras a day would have to be processed for 250 work days to eliminate the problem in one year (50 work weeks per year). Get in line early!

On the other hand, soon it may be possible to pick up M9 body with sensor deamination at an attractive price. The new owner only needs to be patient.

It will be interesting to see how many M9 owners jump to the M240. It will be interesting to see if Leica quickly develops a less expensive, minimalistic M body based on the CMOSIS sensor system in order to increase the upgrade rate. The upgrade option is attractive if new camera production can meet demand.
__________________
“To see what is in front of one’s nose needs a constant struggle.” George Orwell

williamchuttonjr.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #36
apostasiometritis
Registered User
 
apostasiometritis's Avatar
 
apostasiometritis is offline
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 91
All the above is true, but I suspect that for many it means that Leica is a no go area for digital. Personally, I will not be contemplating a digital Leica for at least another 5 years. £50 banknotes don't grow on trees unfortunately.

Of all this fuss I keep the fact that Leica tried to get away with having the buyer (partially or fully even) pay for the fix.

They are beautiful machines but the current design and engineering ethos in Leica does not instil confidence, irrespective of what other companies do and don't do.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #37
Michael Markey
Registered User
 
Michael Markey's Avatar
 
Michael Markey is offline
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Blackpool ,England
Age: 66
Posts: 3,502
Quote:
Originally Posted by willie_901 View Post
It will be interesting to see if Leica quickly develops a less expensive, minimalistic M body based on the CMOSIS sensor system in order to increase the upgrade rate.

Now that would be an attractive prospect ...
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #38
noimmunity
scratch my niche
 
noimmunity's Avatar
 
noimmunity is offline
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lyon/Taipei
Age: 54
Posts: 3,113
This is a solution that should be satisfactory, but I don't see how it could be called "goodwill".

Leica have already demonstrated that the entire digital line before the M240 was simply customer beta-testing. The fact that people were being charged for sensor replacement in the past even while a mountain of growing evidence over a very long time was showing an unusually high defect rate/attrition rate does not sound like "goodwill" to me. To be fair, there were also many stories of sensors on out-of-warranty bodies that were replaced for free, but this exchange, which was often cited as proof of goodwill, was actually simply the minimum that the company should have done.

The terms of the current solution proposed by Leica are vague. What constitutes an "attractive" upgrade option? Is a "permanent solution" to the M9 sensor problem even possible?

I suspect that neither of these will pan out. And the amount of time required for replacement service, which has been an issue in the past, is left simply unaddressed.

My admiration for Leica's ability to propose an entirely vague solution that satisfactorily restores brand image far surpasses my estimation of the "goodwill", not to mention reliability, of the brand.
__________________
jon 小強


flickr
Flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #39
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Santiago, Chile
Age: 44
Posts: 18,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by noimmunity View Post
This is a solution that should be satisfactory, but I don't see how it could be called "goodwill".
Yeah, makes me feel they can back out of it later. However, in the short term this sounds like a good solution. They felt the pressure and responded. Not a bad outcome.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-10-2014   #40
x-ray
Registered User
 
x-ray's Avatar
 
x-ray is offline
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Tennessee USA
Age: 68
Posts: 4,123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwesi View Post
So who's got your trust now?
Your rant sounds a bit naive. I hear that you feel burned. But if you think that only Leica is capable of that...
I don't think you got what I said. Virtually every company will be more than happy to take advantage of customers given the opportunity.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:38.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.