Old 02-25-2013   #41
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Same thing happened to me at about the same shutter count. Got it fixed in HK for USD 400. I checked with Singapore and they were charging SGD 1300 and in the US USD 1200.

Now it works just fine.
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Old 02-25-2013   #42
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You mean the fact that there is such a database also for M8? There is one for about 100 or so Canon models.
Really .. well that does change things a tad I guess .
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Old 02-25-2013   #43
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How does one defend that 14,000-30,000 actuations is acceptable...how is it that Leica has gotten away with this...???

My Nikon F4 has at least 35,000 shutter actuations that I have personally put on it and I bought it used and I've shot over 9,000 pictures with my used F5 and what I paid for both of these cameras together is a fraction of what digital Leicas are going for...just doesn't sound like a good deal to me...
Anacdotal evidence is no help - the highest shuttercount recorded on an M8 is (or was 1 1/2 year ago, it will be considerably more now) 350.000 without a hitch.
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Old 02-25-2013   #44
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Remember when a TV or stereo cost so much, it was economical to have repairmen? Today a TV costs $400, (equivalent to $100 in 1970) and when it breaks, it is thrown in the garbage. All electro-mechanical devices break, but the digital Leicas cost 5 times what any other camera costs.

Remember when cars were all mechanical, and could be repaired cheaply? And how everyone complains that today's cars are so complex, and electronic, that you cannot work on them? Same with the digital Leicas.

I'm saying, digital Leicas will break, and will be too expensive to fix. That's why I've decided to stay away from them. A client offered to trade me his M9 for a rare antique LF lens I own. I declined because I said "what will I do when this complex, exotic electronic device breaks?" He admitted that it already had a problem, but that he sent it to Leica and got a full upper replacement that cost him quite a lot. So now he's got too much money in it, and they're already too expensive.

Sorry, but nothing I've read has convinced me a modern Leica (or any Leica really) is more reliable or durable than any other camera. All I read is attempted justification for their extreme high price. I drive Toyotas and Mazdas, not Lamborginis and Bentleys.
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Old 02-25-2013   #45
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So it is a matter of failure based on some probability model. It is a matter of luck.
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Old 02-25-2013   #46
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Yes, Statistics is the study of confused numbers....
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Exactly, which is how come I'm a Bayesian.
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Old 02-25-2013   #47
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Anacdotal evidence is no help - the highest shuttercount recorded on an M8 is (or was 1 1/2 year ago, it will be considerably more now) 350.000 without a hitch.
And once again, it is great to be in the good tail of a Gaussian distribution.
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Old 02-25-2013   #48
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Willie,
People have different "problems" they are dealing with, and yours is being a Bayesian!
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Old 02-25-2013   #49
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And once again, it is great to be in the good tail of a Gaussian distribution.
The M8 time to failure distribution may not be Gaussian. I would rather see that distribution being skewed in such a way to have a very low probability for a short mean time to failure.
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Old 02-25-2013   #50
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Remember when a TV or stereo cost so much, it was economical to have repairmen? Today a TV costs $400, (equivalent to $100 in 1970) and when it breaks, it is thrown in the garbage. All electro-mechanical devices break, but the digital Leicas cost 5 times what any other camera costs.

Remember when cars were all mechanical, and could be repaired cheaply? And how everyone complains that today's cars are so complex, and electronic, that you cannot work on them? Same with the digital Leicas.

I'm saying, digital Leicas will break, and will be too expensive to fix. That's why I've decided to stay away from them. A client offered to trade me his M9 for a rare antique LF lens I own. I declined because I said "what will I do when this complex, exotic electronic device breaks?" He admitted that it already had a problem, but that he sent it to Leica and got a full upper replacement that cost him quite a lot. So now he's got too much money in it, and they're already too expensive.

Sorry, but nothing I've read has convinced me a modern Leica (or any Leica really) is more reliable or durable than any other camera. All I read is attempted justification for their extreme high price. I drive Toyotas and Mazdas, not Lamborginis and Bentleys.
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Old 02-25-2013   #51
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Terrible customer service, I think. If new camera failed they should have sent him replacement set and take in failed one, not making customer sick by 4 (FOUR !!!) repair iterations. By today's laws customer in first six months in a case of failure can take back money if he chooses so; well, this depends on country but this what I can choose from). ...
While the process was frustrating due to its lengthiness, the service was excellent. The folks at Leica USA were prompt and on point for every part of the cycle, loaned him a camera the second time, and again through the subsequent cycles until his camera was finally fixed. The followed up with him after the final repair three more times just to be sure it was taken care of properly and he was happy with it. My friend was not delighted with having the problem, but was delighted with Leica and how they took care of him through it. It made him a lifetime Leica owner.

So perceptions differ. For myself, I'd *much rather* have a company look after me, treat me and my camera like individuals, builds a relationship, and takes care of me whatever it takes, than one that simply tosses a replacement unit at me.

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Old 02-25-2013   #52
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So it is a matter of failure based on some probability model. It is a matter of luck.
The failure is based on a state of nature. The shutter design, materials, manufacturing tolerances, and usage conditions determine how it fails.

But the M8 perspective buyer has to consider, a hypothesis: is the M8 shutter life a problem or not. The buyer could care less about how the shutter fails. They only care if the expected shutter life is an unacceptable risk.

Unless the M8 is different from every other manufactured device, a Gaussian distribution is a useful model to describe the real, but unknown, distribution of M8 shutter lives. In fact there are very few physicsl phenomena that are not. The M8 shutter life data base is useful because it gives the Gaussian a scale and some idea about the distribution width. Neither the OP's experience or jaapv's report are very useful to someone considering M8 ownership. Very few owners will experience either of those shutter lives.

If one is trying to decide whether or not to buy a M8 (or any other camera), the expected shutter life can be ignored. Very early failure is bad luck and a very long shutter life is good luck.
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Old 02-25-2013   #53
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I learned this lesson a long time ago. Whether film or digital, I always have pairs of similar cameras, if only for the peace of mind. When my paycheck depended on my images, as a rule I would shoot a few frames on a second camera when I knew I had "the money shot" in another camera.

The lesson is recalled as something my boss way back then said: I need your photos, not excuses. The lessons learned the hard way are the ones remembered best.
The M9 is my back-up camera for my M8!
They are both in one small camera bag.
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Old 02-25-2013   #54
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I learned this lesson a long time ago. Whether film or digital, I always have pairs of similar cameras, if only for the peace of mind. When my paycheck depended on my images, as a rule I would shoot a few frames on a second camera when I knew I had "the money shot" in another camera. ...
When I'm being paid to do photography, of course I agree completely. Although I have rarely if ever pulled the second camera backup out of the bag at all.

When I'm doing my own photography, for whatever reason, the other truth I've learned is that regardless of how many opportunities I might miss, for whatever reason, there are an infinite number of other photo opportunities that I can take advantage of.

So if I'm out on a photo walk and my camera breaks, I just put it aside, enjoy the rest of the walk, and go back again some other time. Or look for other photo opportunities when next I've got the moment to go shooting. I feel no pressure to get every photo op that comes along. There are plenty to choose from, at any time.

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Old 02-25-2013   #55
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Notice that the graph for the data on M8 failures is not symmetric about its mean. It is skewed. As expected, there are fewer cases of early failure time as compared with late failure time.



http://www.olegkikin.com/shutterlife/leica_m8.htm









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The failure is based on a state of nature. The shutter design, materials, manufacturing tolerances, and usage conditions determine how it fails.

But the M8 perspective buyer has to consider, a hypothesis: is the M8 shutter life a problem or not. The buyer could care less about how the shutter fails. They only care if the expected shutter life is an unacceptable risk.

Unless the M8 is different from every other manufactured device, a Gaussian distribution is a useful model to describe the real, but unknown, distribution of M8 shutter lives. In fact there are very few physicsl phenomena that are not. The M8 shutter life data base is useful because it gives the Gaussian a scale and some idea about the distribution width. Neither the OP's experience or jaapv's report are very useful to someone considering M8 ownership. Very few owners will experience either of those shutter lives.

If one is trying to decide whether or not to buy a M8 (or any other camera), the expected shutter life can be ignored. Very early failure is bad luck and a very long shutter life is good luck.
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Old 02-25-2013   #56
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When I'm being paid to do photography, of course I agree completely. Although I have rarely if ever pulled the second camera backup out of the bag at all.

When I'm doing my own photography, for whatever reason, the other truth I've learned is that regardless of how many opportunities I might miss, for whatever reason, there are an infinite number of other photo opportunities that I can take advantage of.

So if I'm out on a photo walk and my camera breaks, I just put it aside, enjoy the rest of the walk, and go back again some other time. Or look for other photo opportunities when next I've got the moment to go shooting. I feel no pressure to get every photo op that comes along. There are plenty to choose from, at any time.

G
I think it was Winogrand that said something along the lines that no pictures existed while he was reloading his camera. I thought that was a pretty amazing statement for a guy who shot dozens of rolls in a single outing yet had to come to terms with some "down time," and possible missed shots, while reloading.
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Old 02-26-2013   #57
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When an M8 is upgraded to an M8u does anyone know if the actuation count with-in the camera is reset to zero or if the count continues?

Thanks.
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Old 02-26-2013   #58
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It doesn't sound feasible to me that an M8, when sold new was what, around $6000-$7000.00, and a $1500.00 Nikon can claim 150,000 tested actuations on its shutter?

What happened to German craftsmanship? I know photographers who have far exceeded 100,000 actuations on their M3 and M4s and they just keep clicking away.

It doesn't make sense to me that albeit a partially mechanical camera, that the shutter's MTBF (mean time between failure) is that low.
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Old 02-26-2013   #59
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Notice that the graph for the data on M8 failures is not symmetric about its mean. It is skewed. As expected, there are fewer cases of early failure time as compared with late failure time.



http://www.olegkikin.com/shutterlife/leica_m8.htm
We'll check again in the distant future after 90% of all M8 shutters have failed. Right now the samples are biased. This sort of thing can be a problem when a frequency of occurrence statistic is applied to a state of knowledge hypothesis.
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Old 02-26-2013   #60
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It doesn't sound feasible to me that an M8, when sold new was what, around $6000-$7000.00, and a $1500.00 Nikon can claim 150,000 tested actuations on its shutter?

What happened to German craftsmanship? I know photographers who have far exceeded 100,000 actuations on their M3 and M4s and they just keep clicking away.

It doesn't make sense to me that albeit a partially mechanical camera, that the shutter's MTBF (mean time between failure) is that low.
It isn't. MTBF is an estimated value based on a representative sample of shutters which have been tested to the failure point. Any individual shutter can have a problem at any time.

That's the nature of a statistical estimate.
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Old 02-26-2013   #61
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It isn't. MTBF is an estimated value based on a representative sample of shutters which have been tested to the failure point. Any individual shutter can have a problem at any time.

That's the nature of a statistical estimate.
So, MTBF may not be the correct term.

What I do know if that the typical user who spends $6k on a body expects an extremely durable shutter. Hopefully, an M8 shutter that fails after 30k actuations is an 'anomaly' and not the 'norm', and that the Leica shutters should last at least as long as a $1500.00 Japanese camera's shutter.

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Old 02-26-2013   #62
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This shutter problem is obviously an anomaly. Leica sold thousands of M8 cameras, one or even a dozen with a shutter problem of some kind early in the life of the body does not constitute a 'norm'.

When it happens to your camera, it's a PITA. When it happens to most of the cameras in a production run, it's a norm. "Most of the cameras in a production run" would mean, technically, at least 51% ... In the case of the M8, that number would be in the thousands.

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Old 02-26-2013   #63
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I don't own an m8 but have heard of lots of them having their shutter replaced. It's clearly not a norm if you define that by greater than 50% but its a bit more than an anomaly, I think.
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Old 02-26-2013   #64
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I don't own an m8 but have heard of lots of them having their shutter replaced.
There were many shutters replaced in the upgrade program. Other than that I have never seen one with a replaced shutter. I have seen a few forum posts about shutter failures.
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Old 02-26-2013   #65
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I don't own an m8 but have heard of lots of them having their shutter replaced. It's clearly not a norm if you define that by greater than 50% but its a bit more than an anomaly, I think.
Where did you hear that then?
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Old 02-26-2013   #66
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There were many shutters replaced in the upgrade program. Other than that I have never seen one with a replaced shutter. I have seen a few forum posts about shutter failures.
Exactly.

By the serial number listings, there were about 20,000 M8s sold, give or take a few. If greater than 3% experienced an early shutter failure, that would be out of bounds on *all* expected warranty repairs (that's a number of cameras, about 600), the industry mean. If as many as 10%, or 2000 cameras, required a new shutter early in its life, I'd consider that a condition of "highly likely to need an early shutter repair". For an early shutter replacement to be expected as "normal", failure numbers would have to be in the range of 4000 or more cameras that actually failed—and there's no evidence to support that kind of number at all.

Of course with an expensive camera, or anything else, your expectations are that it is perfect and will last forever. However, this expectation is simply not aligned with practical realities of the world at all. Machines break, all of them; most of them at or near the statistical average if given the kind of treatment and care that they were designed for. Some fail much earlier than that, some much later. It's simply a fact of life. Sucky when it happens to your prized, expensive camera, but you groan a little and get on with it.

Let's not make a tempest in a teapot over this single M8 shutter problem.

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Old 02-26-2013   #67
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Old 02-26-2013   #68
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... I'd be interested in Raid's interpretation of the sample size and presentation of those statistics
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Old 02-26-2013   #69
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That fact alone is all the information I need.
I'll be bold as to bet 1 million GBP that there will be many other facts that you will need after I post this reply!
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Old 02-26-2013   #70
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I don't own an m8 but have heard of lots of them having their shutter replaced. It's clearly not a norm if you define that by greater than 50% but its a bit more than an anomaly, I think.

Remember: Leica M8 failures create more web traffic than Leica M8 success stories (usually derided as "shill" posts). I wouldn't base norm metrics on intertoobes polling.
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Old 02-26-2013   #71
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Do as I do with my M8: Just use it as a light meter and "electrionic polaroid" max 10 shots per day. Then continue with Film leicas. One film has a longevity of 36 actuations, then it is replaced...
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Old 02-26-2013   #72
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I'll be bold as to bet 1 million GBP that there will be many other facts that you will need after I post this reply!
I`m sure you`d be right but its probably not worth much now that we`ve lost the triple A rating
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Old 02-26-2013   #73
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I dropped mine. Cost me (Insurance company) £600 to get it fixed. (got it back a couple of weeks ago)
Apart from a couple of gouges in the top plate, looks very nice. Years warranty etc.
On my 2 trips to Leica Mayfair I drank all the Coffee I could drink & all the Croissants & Pain Chocolate I could get down me. (Trying to get my moneys worth.) They wont post M9 cameras! So I had to pick up & drop off.
Plus they lent me the M9 for nearly 3 months while I was away.
Tried to get an upgrade to ME or M9, but Leica would not have it.
I was glad to be rid of the M9. I suspect it was a duff example.
M8 produced much better pics.
Get it fixed is my advice.
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Old 02-26-2013   #74
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When an M8 is upgraded to an M8u does anyone know if the actuation count with-in the camera is reset to zero or if the count continues?

Thanks.
The count continues. One of my M8s went in for sensor service in 2009 and I took the opportunity to have the shutter and frameline upgrades put in. Shutter count when sent in was 8346, and the first shot upon return was 8428, clearly not reset when shutter replaced; 81 actuations while in for service.
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Old 03-02-2013   #75
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... I'd be interested in Raid's interpretation of the sample size and presentation of those statistics
Of course, a small (biased) sample like the one used for the chart (link) is just a biased snapshot of what is happening. My specialty is quality control (surprise!), and I would not pay much attention to such information, except to learn that such problems could occur.
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Old 03-02-2013   #76
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Remember: Leica M8 failures create more web traffic than Leica M8 success stories (usually derided as "shill" posts). I wouldn't base norm metrics on intertoobes polling.
This is correct. It is similar to a non-response in a marketing survey. People who care about the issue will more likely post about it. Someone who has no problems with her/his M8 may not want to post about it.
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Old 03-02-2013   #77
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The count continues. One of my M8s went in for sensor service in 2009 and I took the opportunity to have the shutter and frameline upgrades put in. Shutter count when sent in was 8346, and the first shot upon return was 8428, clearly not reset when shutter replaced; 81 actuations while in for service.
Thanks!! I appreciate the respone.
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Old 03-02-2013   #78
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Frank's right. I too have read of M8 shutter problems as well as sensor problems. Not saying that the M8 is a bad camera, just electronically it's not up to par with the build of a top end Canon or Nikon.
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Old 03-02-2013   #79
Godfrey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gb hill View Post
Frank's right. I too have read of M8 shutter problems as well as sensor problems. Not saying that the M8 is a bad camera, just electronically it's not up to par with the build of a top end Canon or Nikon.
I know several folks who had no end of trouble with nearly new Nikon D2x and D3 cameras, never mind Canon 1D III and IV. As usual, after a bit of trouble and annoyance, their cameras delivered excellent service and at least two of the are still in daily use. Same as I would expect of the M8.

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Old 01-23-2014   #80
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Are you in the UK?
14,000 actuations for a "Premium" Camera, no matter how old, is unacceptable.
Statutory rights etc.
Look here

in a nutshell
Sale of Goods Act 1979

Satisfactory quality, As Described, Fit for purpose, And last a Reasonable length of Time.

Depends on the "reasonable length of time."
A premium Camera should last a lifetime surely?

Last edited by Clark.EE : 01-23-2014 at 07:18. Reason: miss quoted
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