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Fuji seriously investigating the launch of a full-frame compact system camera
Old 09-20-2012   #1
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Fuji seriously investigating the launch of a full-frame compact system camera

Amateur Photographer interviewed Mr. Hiroshi Kawahara from Fuji. And he confirmed that “Fujifilm technicians are seriously investigating the possible launch of a full-frame compact system camera (CSC) and are focusing on the sensor and processor that would be required.” Mr Kawahara also confirmed that “the covering circle of Fuji’s current X-series lenses is large enough to accommodate full frame.” The problem is that current wide angle lenses would not cover the full FF area.

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/fuji...me-mirrorless/
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Old 09-20-2012   #2
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Saw this today too. Seem like some of the lenses will be compatible with a FF sensor. I bet they do it. They have made too much noise in the market not to capitalize on their innovation.
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Old 09-20-2012   #3
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I still think theres witchcraft that goes on between the lens and the final image in the Fuji's.

That's a positive.

Who knows, if they go FF I may join back into Fuji.. 4 months after the release
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Old 09-20-2012   #4
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Once Fuji goes full frame, there will be few reasons left to buy a new Leica DRF.
Personally, I think full frame is over-rated.
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Old 09-20-2012   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric T View Post
Personally, I think full frame is over-rated.
It kind of is... except for the fact that my 50mm equiv lens acts like a 35mm with regard to depth of field and distortion, etc.
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Old 09-20-2012   #6
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Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
It kind of is... except for the fact that my 50mm equiv lens acts like a 35mm with regard to depth of field and distortion, etc.
DOF, yes. A 35mm f/1.4 is a 35mm f/1.4.

But distortion? Absolutely not. The angle of view of your Fuji 35mm on an X1, an Olympus 25mm on four-thirds, or a 180mm on a 4x5in view camera are identical, and not one has any more wide-angle distortion than the other.
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Old 09-20-2012   #7
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Originally Posted by philosomatographer View Post
But distortion? Absolutely not. The angle of view of your Fuji 35mm on an X1, an Olympus 25mm on four-thirds, or a 180mm on a 4x5in view camera are identical, and not one has any more wide-angle distortion than the other.
I'm not sure I agree. If I'm using a 35mm on a crop sensor, I will get the distortion of a 35mm lens even if it is cropped to 50mm by the sensor. Generally 50s, have less distortion than 35mm lenses, so I feel I'm dealing with distortion because I have a crop sensor and I need to use a 35mm to be my 50mm. As you go wider, the worse it gets. What am I not understanding from your quote?
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Old 09-20-2012   #8
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Distortion is somewhat ambiguous. There's barrel distortion, perspective effects (really not distortion but often described as such) were objects close to the camera appear larger than they do in person, and there's the distortion where objects close to the camera at the edge of the frame that are circular appear to have an oval shape and square objects appear to be rectangles.

Larger sensors don't necessarily do large angles of view better than smaller sensors. But it is more difficult to design short focal length lenses for smaller sensors; the manufacturing costs and tolerances are also more challenging as th focal length decreases. If wide angles of view are important, than I would rather have a larger sensor even though the DOF narrows.
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Old 09-20-2012   #9
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Today I received my Nikon D600. It can do it all, but it is still a big, bulky SLR. Ah well, maybe in 6 years or so.
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Old 09-20-2012   #10
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I don't think you'll have to wait six years if fuji is serious, although it took some time for the FF to become remotely affordable.

However, I doubt a FF X series camera would be cheap. Given that you a fixed lens sony ff is $3000....
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Old 09-20-2012   #11
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Originally Posted by Ronald_H View Post
Today I received my Nikon D600. It can do it all, but it is still a big, bulky SLR. Ah well, maybe in 6 years or so.
really? it looked to me half the size of my old 5d...only a half pound heavier than the xpro1, and similar in width and height to the xpro (but not similar in depth!).
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Old 09-20-2012   #12
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Originally Posted by N.delaRua View Post
However, I doubt a FF X series camera would be cheap. Given that you a fixed lens sony ff is $3000....
The price difference between a Nikon d7000 vs d600 body may be a decent way to estimate what the Fuji ff xp may go for.. But no doubt not going to be cheap especially if it is a body w/ the ovf unit.

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Old 09-20-2012   #13
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The price difference between a Nikon d7000 vs d600 body may be a decent way to estimate what the Fuji ff xp may go for.. But no doubt not going to be cheap especially if it is a body w/ the ovf unit.

Gary
One can only hope! Although they may make DLSR's as well. I was waiting for an SLR "type" X series camera, I guess the XE-1 is it.
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Old 09-20-2012   #14
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Originally Posted by Eric T View Post
Once Fuji goes full frame, there will be few reasons left to buy a new Leica DRF.
Personally, I think full frame is over-rated.
I tend to agree on both counts...

FF in the past for me was about using my legacy lenses as they were meant to be used... I have gotten used to apsc.. And my photo needs are in terms of max print size is easily satisfied with what I an get out of the xp1. The Fuji glass is some of the best out there, IMHO it rivals both Contax and Leica glass.

FF XP is all about mindshare and being able to point to your flagship product and say it is better than your competitor..

But on the other hand, I can c why there are those who need a ff sensor because of either the size of the print they require or the type of photography they shoot. Higher iso, bigger print size, thinner looking dof, smoother tonal look that a higher mp ff sensor can give.

My dream camera is a 24+ mp camera with clean iso 3200 capabilty that I can have a 24mm fov f2 lens and never have to take off.. Get to about 50 or 75 mm fov by cropping in post. In playing around w/ the 20mp rx100, it seems to me u can get very usable crops up to around 2.5.. If this camera is an apsc or ff I really don't care.

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Last edited by GaryLH : 09-20-2012 at 12:53. Reason: Fixed sentence structure
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Old 09-20-2012   #15
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This could be interesting, but FF is a bit over-hyped IMO. However, if it had some decent focusing mechanism to help with legacy glass...just kidding, that horse is dead and has been kicked around the forum long enough

But I get that you'd get better DoF and probably lose some of the 35mm-cropped-into-50mm distortion/perspective weirdness. While that's nice, if we are approaching Leica prices at the point that this thing launches, I'm out.

We'll see. I'm honestly more hoping that Sony brings out a FF NEX, as I had a NEX-5n briefly and focusing manually with old glass was a breeze. Once I don't have to 1.5x my lenses anymore, I'm in.

In the meantime, back to Tri-X.
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Old 09-20-2012   #16
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Originally Posted by boomguy57 View Post
This could be interesting, but FF is a bit over-hyped IMO. However, if it had some decent focusing mechanism to help with legacy glass...just kidding, that horse is dead and has been kicked around the forum long enough

But I get that you'd get better DoF and probably lose some of the 35mm-cropped-into-50mm distortion/perspective weirdness. While that's nice, if we are approaching Leica prices at the point that this thing launches, I'm out.

We'll see. I'm honestly more hoping that Sony brings out a FF NEX, as I had a NEX-5n briefly and focusing manually with old glass was a breeze. Once I don't have to 1.5x my lenses anymore, I'm in.

In the meantime, back to Tri-X.
Personally, I hate the nex series UI. The rx100 UI is a breath of fresh air in comparison. Given the difference in target audience of their three camera systems, I suspect that there are also three different product focused marketing groups. I suspect the UI for the NEX series will not change... The best u will c is the nex6/7 style.

I am hoping that Fuji implements focus peeking next, at which point the Fuji becomes the universal digital back for me...

The Ricoh gxr w/m module has been what I have been using for m and ltm mount lenses. I now wonder if Ricoh is going to continue the gxr line.. Nothing lately outside if their a16 unit w/ the new zoom lens.. When and if the m module gives up the ghost and Ricoh does not come up w/ a replacement, Fuji will end up being used for everything.

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Old 09-20-2012   #17
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Quote:
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Once Fuji goes full frame, there will be few reasons left to buy a new Leica DRF.
Personally, I think full frame is over-rated.
And at the price the Fuji X-Pro 1 already is, what do you think a full frame sensor version will be? Probably near very near to the Leica ME. And lets face it, at the same sort of price you want a Fuji?!! Its like ordering the caviar on toast and saying to the waiter 'hold the caviar'.
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Old 09-20-2012   #18
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I just want a FF that I can afford (ie.. $2800) and will handle a Biogon's corners when shooting raw. Of course, I must be able to manual focus. Fuji is probably too heavily invested in the lens side of things to do this. Sony is focused on the electronics end of things, but less likely to pay attention to such a small segment of the population. I think that Ricoh, which basically sat out this Photokina, is the only hope of such a camera.
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Old 09-20-2012   #19
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Just looked up B&h price of d7000 before the current 200 dollar rebate.. 1200 round up number versus 2100.. 900 dollars diff.. I believe both sensors are made for Nikon by Sony, so one could say that this is the oem price difference for the basic sensor.

But I reality, what this comparison does take into account are
- difference in base body redesign if required
- image processing hw updates due to new sensor
- and associated fw updates
- difference in economy of scale for Fuji versus Nikon
- how aggressive Fuji marketing team will be.. Projected units sold versus the cost of r&d and the profit margin projection

Gary
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Old 09-20-2012   #20
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And at the price the Fuji X-Pro 1 already is, what do you think a full frame sensor version will be? Probably near very near to the Leica ME. And lets face it, at the same sort of price you want a Fuji?!! Its like ordering the caviar on toast and saying to the waiter 'hold the caviar'.
NO Fuji will cost anywhere near $5500... unless Leica rebadges one.
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Old 09-20-2012   #21
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My read of the article is that Fujifilm, like others probably, was caught by surprise and that it is highly unlikely you'll see any full frame X series camera from them within the next 12 months as it wasn't even on their radar and they are pretty committed to APS-C and their lens line-up as is.

Given there still isn't focus peaking on the X despite officially supporting M via the M mount, I have to wonder how serious their efforts are to support the lenses and IQ they can deliver if treated right.

Unless Ricoh, the only company other than Leica well positioned, today, to bring about a modern full frame digital M camera, goes ahead and does what many think they could and should do, the only product that will treat M lenses as they deserve to be treated on a full frame camera will be Leica's digital M camera.

I'm definitely not expecting Fujifilm to cater to this need of mine, not in the near term anyway.
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Old 09-20-2012   #22
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I would be very interested in a FF Fuji X so I could use my M glass as intended - I don't use any of it on my NEX7 due to the FOV changes. To have something like a X-E1 in full frame would be my ideal.
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Old 09-20-2012   #23
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Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
NO Fuji will cost anywhere near $5500... unless Leica rebadges one.
+1.

On the other hand, if Leica rebadged it, it would look better than the Nex rebadged Hasselblad.

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Old 09-20-2012   #24
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NO Fuji will cost anywhere near $5500... unless Leica rebadges one.

+1

Ok I realize they're difference systems from difference camera makers but don't see why Fuji shouldn't be able to produce a full frame X- series body for about the same cost as a Canon 5Dmkr3 or a Nikon D800.
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Old 09-20-2012   #25
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A new XP1 cost as much or even more than a used M8, so I would totally expect them to price it at the used M9 level if it comes out.
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Old 09-20-2012   #26
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Fuji are an enormous company and I believe they could fast track a full frame X if they chose to. To me they seem determined to dominate the mirrorless market so they won't be sitting on their hands here IMO.

Could the classifieds deal with the glut of (obsolete ) Xpros though?
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Old 09-20-2012   #27
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''A new XP1 cost as much or even more than a used M8, so I would totally expect them to price it at the used M9 level if it comes out.''


alex, xp1s are going for $1300. ive never seen an m8 under $1800. many are listed right now on this forum st over $2000! when it first came out it xp1 was $1500. i'll bet you a FF costs nothing more than $2500.
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Old 09-20-2012   #28
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Fuji are an enormous company and I believe they could fast track a full frame X if they chose to. To me they seem determined to dominate the mirrorless market so they won't be sitting on their hands here IMO.

Could the classifieds deal with the glut of (obsolete ) Xpros though?
Any different then what may also be happening with d7000 and d600?

Gary
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Old 09-20-2012   #29
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Any different then what may also be happening with d7000 and d600?

Gary

True ... except that mirrorless seems to be where the real action is at the moment.

Fuji have been a little upstaged by another giant corporation in Sony ... and they won't like that!
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Old 09-20-2012   #30
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True ... except that mirrorless seems to be where the real action is at the moment.

Fuji have been a little upstaged by another giant corporation in Sony ... and they won't like that!
Lol

Competition is good..

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Old 09-20-2012   #31
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Being that Fuji has put a lot of dollars into the X line- and themselves saying that some of their lenses do not cover 36x24- I would bet there isn't a "full frame" camera coming any time soon.

With regards to being upstaged: Fuji puts out interesting cameras, not electronic products and, luckily, no longer deals with Hasselblad!
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Old 09-20-2012   #32
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Being that Fuji has put a lot of dollars into the X line- and themselves saying that some of their lenses do not cover 36x24- I would bet there isn't a "full frame" camera coming any time soon.

With regards to being upstaged: Fuji puts out interesting cameras, not electronic products and, luckily, no longer deals with Hasselblad!

Imaging is only a small part of Fuji ... they made a big investment in pharmaceuticals some time ago.

Business is business ... they are a huge corporation with numerous interests.
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Old 09-20-2012   #33
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Dear fujifilm,



Yours,
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Old 09-20-2012   #34
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Dear fujifilm,



Yours,
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Lol

I was wondering if this image would pop up during this thread.

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Old 09-20-2012   #35
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I think watching Fuji make decisions has been very interesting. They tend to try and produce products with unique features (optical viewfinder, X-Trans) rather than compete on price or features.

Because of that, I have my doubts they'll enter the FF world. The image quality from a FF sensor is higher, but the "ROI" on cost v.s. improvement is pretty debatable. It seems to me that Fuji will only put out a full frame camera if: they can no longer increase image quality in other ways or one of their ideas does not pan out. In many ways, "scaling up" a known sensor design would probably be easier than bringing an entirely new design idea to life.
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Old 09-20-2012   #36
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I think watching Fuji make decisions has been very interesting. They tend to try and produce products with unique features (optical viewfinder, X-Trans) rather than compete on price or features.

Because of that, I have my doubts they'll enter the FF world. The image quality from a FF sensor is higher, but the "ROI" on cost v.s. improvement is pretty debatable. It seems to me that Fuji will only put out a full frame camera if: they can no longer increase image quality in other ways or one of their ideas does not pan out. In many ways, "scaling up" a known sensor design would probably be easier than bringing an entirely new design idea to life.


True ... but it may be easier for them to just do it rather than try and convince users it's not really necessary.

There's a real "I want/need full frame" mentality out there at the moment and they (Fuji) need to keep selling cameras.

The area that may suffer a little in this current FF frenzy is micro four thirds IMO.
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Old 09-20-2012   #37
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True ... but it may be easier for them to just do it rather than try and convince users it's not really necessary.
True. This is one of those areas where facts are far less important than perceptions.
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Old 09-20-2012   #38
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True ... but it may be easier for them to just do it rather than try and convince users it's not really necessary.
I just look at the Fuji products and see them using unexploited market niches to get unusually high prices for their cameras. They sell the X-Pro for $200 more than the 7D, though if you *just* look at the spec sheets, it's hard to say why that's successful (I own both). The 7D almost certainly has a higher BOM (though the sensor is probably quite cheap now). If Fuji had launched the X-Pro sensor in a DSLR body, it would be a much harder sell than the unique form factor they currently use.

I don't think Fuji is looking to compete "directly" with any of the other camera makers. They want to be the Leica of prosumer cameras - purchased for their unique offerings rather than raw technical and value.

Back when they were leading up to the X-Pro release, Fuji was comparing it to the 5D2 directly. The 5D2, of course, has a full-frame sensor. They could have compared against a crop sensor, but they didn't, which says to me that they invite the comparison to FF sensors.
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Old 09-20-2012   #39
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Imaging is only a small part of Fuji ... they made a big investment in pharmaceuticals some time ago.

Business is business ... they are a huge corporation with numerous interests.

Totally agree. Although some companies keep their interests separate. But the wording of the Fuji exec was vague enough to come from from any camera company. Are there any camera companies (that currently don't market one) not contemplating big sensors? I expect them to do this. Will they hit the market soon? Maybe not.
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Old 09-21-2012   #40
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NO Fuji will cost anywhere near $5500... unless Leica rebadges one.
The body won't cost that, but there will be another entirely new range of lenses to go with a Fuji FF.

If £3000 gets you an X-Pro and a couple of lenses in the UK, what price a Fuji FF! A Leica ME is going to be £3900 body only and many people already have a set of lenses paid for long ago. So there ain't going to be any bumper stickers saying 'My Other Camera is a Fuji' unless Fuji do something about their pricing policy
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