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-   -   M10/M10-P Questions (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169938)

healyzh 11-10-2019 09:18

M10/M10-P Questions
 
Even before my M9 developed sensor corrosion (so far minor corrosion in the upper left corner, so I can still use it for now), I was starting to think seriously about the M10. Now that I need to either get the sensor fixed on the M9, or upgrade, I've been doing a lot of research. On Friday, Leica had a couple of Reps at my local camera store, and I went in to check out the M10. They had the M10-P, which is the model I'm looking at the most. Since looking at it, and taking some test shots in the store, I've come up with some additional questions. I've been trying to find info online, and looked through the manual, but didn't really find answers.

Somehow in looking at both the M (Type 240), and the M10, I'd not realized that Leica has moved to digitally projected framelines until this last Friday. Does this give any greater accuracy on the Framelines? Does it help in low-light? Basically, what are the benefits?

For the virtual horizon only show in Live View, or does it show up in the rangefinder window somehow?

When I went in, I took a card, and a couple lenses to test with, a 1935 28mm Hektor f/6.8 and a 1960's 35mm Summaron f/2.8. After buying a D800 years ago, I wanted to see how the 24MP sensor would react to these lenses. They offered to let me test it outside, but honestly, I had no interest in that, I'm convinced of its abilities outside. I wanted to see how it worked in the store, and in a darkened showroom. I was not disappointed, quite the opposite actually. Last night on an Art Walk, after dark, I found myself dreaming of the M10 (I had my M9 and a 35mm Nokton f/1.4 MC).

ka7197 11-10-2019 09:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by healyzh (Post 2923020)
... I'd not realized that Leica has moved to digitally projected framelines until this last Friday.

Leica Camera hasn't "moved to digitally projected framelines"—neither until this Friday nor afterwards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by healyzh (Post 2923020)
For the virtual horizon only show in Live View ...?

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by healyzh (Post 2923020)
... or does it show up in the rangefinder window somehow?

No.

jarski 11-10-2019 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by healyzh (Post 2923020)
Somehow in looking at both the M (Type 240), and the M10, I'd not realized that Leica has moved to digitally projected framelines until this last Friday. Does this give any greater accuracy on the Framelines? Does it help in low-light? Basically, what are the benefits?

illuminated frame lines are great (imo). been using both M8 and M240 recently, and quite often struggle with M8 frame lines (now in dark autumn in north Europe. or I accidentally block one of windows with glove etc.). frame lines in M240 always shine bright and clear. Leica should make their next film M using same technology ;)

healyzh 11-10-2019 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by ka7197 (Post 2923024)
Leica Camera hasn't "moved to digitally projected framelines"—neither until this this Friday nor afterwards.

In other words they're still the same framelines, just artificially illuminated? That's actually better than what I thought.

I'm not too worried about the artificial horizon not showing up in the viewfinder, it was simply a question that came to mind after I left the store.

krötenblender 11-10-2019 10:28

Hi,

regarding the framelines: It's only the illumination of the framelines, that is now done with LEDs instead of the windows of past times. The advantage is, that you also get good visible framelines in near darkness, which wasn't so easy with the M9. However, it looked cooler... at least IMHO.

High-ISO is indeed a great leap from M9 to M10. The M240 was already better that the M9, but the M10 is really usable in dark situations.

The virtual horizon is not available in the optical viewfinder. Only Fujifilm does that trick. You get it in Live-View, or in the EVF.

Regarding M10 vs. M10-P: Both are more or less the same camera, especially the sensor and thus the image-quality. The M10-P has touch-screen operation as its main technical advantage and, of course, the changed design of the body. If the touch-screen and the different design is the worth the higher price, is up to you, of course. But I don't see any good reason, to buy any-digi-leica-P over the regular ones. The difference always was too small, IMHO.

Regards,
Stephan

healyzh 11-10-2019 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarski (Post 2923027)
illuminated frame lines are great (imo). been using both M8 and M240 recently, and quite often struggle with M8 frame lines (now in dark autumn in north Europe. or I accidentally block one of windows with glove etc.). frame lines in M240 always shine bright and clear. Leica should make their next film M using same technology ;)

Thanks! I thought this was the case. It seems like a logical progression. Though it was a real shock when I held the camera up to my eye. Then all I could think was, how had I missed that! :)

healyzh 11-10-2019 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by krötenblender (Post 2923030)
Regarding M10 vs. M10-P: Both are more or less the same camera, especially the sensor and thus the image-quality. The M10-P has touch-screen operation as its main technical advantage and, of course, the changed design of the body. If the touch-screen and the different design is the worth the higher price, if up to you, of course. But I don't see any good reason, to buy any-digi-leica-P over the regular ones. The difference always was too small, IMHO.

You're touching on the argument that has been going back and forth in my mind. The touch-screen isn't a big deal, though coming from the M9, it's BEAUTIFUL. The big deal for me is the artificial horizon. Part of the time I'll be using this on a tripod with a 3-way head to get the camera as close to perfectly level as possible. I shot with the M9 this way, but needed to use a level in the flash socket. Still not 100% on the M10-P over the M10, but leaning that way heavily.

newsgrunt 11-10-2019 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by krötenblender (Post 2923030)
...the changed design of the body.

I didn't know the two bodies had different body designs. Very subtle or noticeable ? I do like the much quieter shutter of the P

ChrisC 11-10-2019 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by healyzh (Post 2923032)
.......The big deal for me is the artificial horizon.......

Zane – The M10P/M10P-upgrade Live View 'horizon' is appallingly implemented. The only [default] way to use it is with the Live View image you are trying to level being cropped [top, and bottom] with camera-settings information.

Those 'header' and 'footer' settings cannot be disengaged without losing the horizontal-levelling. I seem to be the only one bothered that Leica won't allow the unwanted crop to be turned off, but it drives me crazy every time I use my chronically hampered camera. The 'header/footer' crop nonsense also applies to use of the live-histogram. With the camera tripod mounted there's a work around to see one's levelled, uncropped composition, but handheld there is no work around. I need horizontality [at least] all the time, I work handheld in urban settings most of the time.

........... Chris

andyturk 11-10-2019 14:11

I have an M10-P. Regarding the electronic framelines, I much prefer the old, analog lines from earlier Ms because they're visible without the camera being turned on. If the M10-P is in sleep mode and I bring it to my eye, I have to wait a few seconds for the thing to wake up before framing a shot.

The horizon level is occasionally useful, mostly with wide angle lenses. I tend to use it with the Visoflex 020, although it does work with the rear LCD too.

The touch screen is pretty handy for panning around an image you're reviewing. The combination of panning on the screen and zooming on the wheel is faster than just using buttons, but I'm sure you'd get used to either interface.

The quiet shutter is amazing, however. Not that I really *need* it to be so quiet, but I like the fact that it is. The windup noise from my M8 makes me giggle in comparison.

OTOH, used M10s are going for nearly half what I paid for the -P, ... for zero difference in image quality.

healyzh 11-10-2019 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by newsgrunt (Post 2923043)
I didn't know the two bodies had different body designs. Very subtle or noticeable ? I do like the much quieter shutter of the P

I'm wondering about this myself. I was looking for examples online, and the M10 and M10-P seem to have the same outward appearance based on what I can find.

jarski 11-11-2019 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by andyturk (Post 2923059)
I have an M10-P. Regarding the electronic framelines, I much prefer the old, analog lines from earlier Ms because they're visible without the camera being turned on. If the M10-P is in sleep mode and I bring it to my eye, I have to wait a few seconds for the thing to wake up before framing a shot. ...

this happened to me also once, raised viewfinder to my eye and there were no framelines. least my M240 wakes up in a second, so it isnt a big issue. strange if newer camera takes longer to boot up than older :confused:

am also wearing a cap usually, that might reduce the incoming light for the old school range finder windows, thus poorer user experience. anyhow, am happy about Leica's new way of implementing the framelines.

sepiareverb 11-11-2019 04:19

I’ve not noticed any handling differences with the M10 over the M9, other than a more comfortable/familiar feel in the hand. Actually never noticed the illuminated framelines.

krötenblender 11-11-2019 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by healyzh (Post 2923103)
I’m wondering about this myself. I was looking for examples online, and the M10 and M10-P seem to have the same outward appearance based on what I can find.

M10-P: No red dot, but instead the Leica Brandname on the top-plate.

Not important, but noticeable and many prefer not to have the prominent red dot so visible. I don't care, though.

For me the most important difference would be the quieter shutter. But the regular M10-shutter is already pretty good and and on the street it would not be noticed normally, I think.

james.liam 11-11-2019 07:45

The M10-P shutter is dope!
Going from an M9 whizzy-whirling to an M10 was startling. The P’s shutter is even that much more damped.

BillBlackwell 11-12-2019 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by healyzh (Post 2923020)
... I was starting to think seriously about the M10. ...

Somehow in looking at both the M (Type 240), and the M10, I'd not realized that Leica has moved to digitally projected framelines until this last Friday. Does this give any greater accuracy on the Framelines? Does it help in low-light? Basically, what are the benefits?

For the virtual horizon only show in Live View, or does it show up in the rangefinder window somehow? ...

I've owned all three (M9, M-P 240, and M10-P), so I thought I'd put in my 2 cents. ...

The M9 has the best color rendition of any of the three, IMHO, but I'm not sure I'd pay to have the sensor replaced. You should have had it done when Leica was offering it at no cost.

The differences between the M-P 240 and the M10-P are not significant for my purposes. The M-P 240 body is thicker, has less dynamic range, has less light sensitivity, but can produce video. The truth is - in most situations you'd never notice a difference between them in your pictures post-processing. And I did numerous M-P 240 B&W conversions in P.S. with fantastic results.

As with some others, I actually prefer the non-illuminated framelines (easier on battery power and I've never had issues when non-illuminated in other Leica M cameras). I'll probably never use the touch screen feature on the M10-P, but the shutter is unbelievably quiet - but not enough of a reason to upgrade (for me).

So why did I upgrade? The M-P 240 sensor technology is ~7-years old and I felt it was time in order to maximize the value of my M-P 240; I wanted to do it before the next-gen "M11" comes out and I got a great deal on an M10-P from https://www.popflash.com/20015SPEC! Coming from an M9 I'd say the M10 would probably suit you nicely (unless you found an M10-P at a great price).

And, FWIW, I've never used the virtual horizon feature.


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