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-   -   Rigid/DR Summicron and color slide? (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169134)

GarageBoy 07-31-2019 13:59

Rigid/DR Summicron and color slide?
 
I know that these lenses are supposed to be lower contrast, but how do they perform with color slide? Will it look more like a screw mount elmar/summitar or closer to newer lenses? More contrasty than a collapsible?

Steve M. 07-31-2019 14:58

It will look sharper and clearer than just about any lens made! My colour negative shots w/ an M3 that had a DR on it were like looking at 3D slides. To my mind these older lenses are not low contrast. Rather, the newer lenses have too much contrast. Their IQ In not going to be as nice as a DR. Look for the lenses w/ the blue coatings, not the brown. A pity that Agfa isn't still making some of their Optima films because my DR just loved that film.

Some lenses like the DR Summicron, the Nikon 50 2, and all of the Heliar lenses were the epitome of lens design, and nothing equals them. There's a few other lenses in this category like the R 90 Summicrons. The feel of a DR that is in good shape is really nice. Precision workmanship, and high quality all the way. I think the DR's are in a class of their own. If I still shot rangefinders, a 50 DR would be on my camera.

raid 07-31-2019 15:07

The Cron is a high resolution lens.

Roninman 07-31-2019 15:31

how's this?

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RoccCity 07-31-2019 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve M. (Post 2903307)
It will look sharper and clearer than just about any lens made! My colour negative shots w/ an M3 that had a DR on it were like looking at 3D slides. To my mind these older lenses are not low contrast. Rather, the newer lenses have too much contrast. Their IQ In not going to be as nice as a DR. Look for the lenses w/ the blue coatings, not the brown.

What would you consider these coatings? They look more on the purple side.

teddy 08-01-2019 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve M. (Post 2903307)
It will look sharper and clearer than just about any lens made! My colour negative shots w/ an M3 that had a DR on it were like looking at 3D slides. To my mind these older lenses are not low contrast. Rather, the newer lenses have too much contrast.

I do have to agree with this comment, after many years of trying all sorts of lenses, Zeiss, Leica, Schneider, Olympus, Pentax - you name it. The Leica lenses, and here - the Leitz Summicron 50/2 DR, Rigid, Collapsible even - are great with slide film, and the newer lenses have TOO MUCH contrast, to the point of making images look rather FLAT. A strange phenomenon. A bit like CD audio vs Vinyl analogy. If you get a superb cart on your Deck, you can destroy CD playback. Each to their own opinions, but these are mine.

Below are photos taken with a Summicron 50/2 DR and an M3, Fuji Velvia 50 (1998 formula)










teddy 08-01-2019 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoccCity (Post 2903319)
What would you consider these coatings? They look more on the purple side.

Yes, these are more on the purple, pink side. The "blue" coatings are on the violet, blue colour range. My Summicron 50/2 DR and my beloved Summaron 35/2.8 have "bluer - violet" coatings.

GarageBoy 08-02-2019 02:58

Thanks - looks promising
I just picked up a DR with a blueish coating. Front element looks good, rear is smudgy, hoping it's just oils and not damaged. Will have it cleaned to see how it is.

Rob-F 08-02-2019 05:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve M. (Post 2903307)
To my mind these older lenses are not low contrast. Rather, the newer lenses have too much contrast. Their IQ In not going to be as nice as a DR.

I can agree that a lens might have more contrast than is wanted, for a particular subject. But I don't think a high-contrast lens can be criticized for having "too much contrast" as if it were an optical defect! A theoretically perfect lens would have 100% contrast, meaning nothing is lost as the light energy travels through the lens. When the contrast is below 100% (it always is, at least slightly), it means some of the light is being scattered inside the lens, so it gets infused into shadow areas. This can be a good thing, boosting the shadow areas, making them more printable. That's fine, especially for some black and white shots.

But a modern lens with modern coatings produces purer, more saturated and vivid colors, and can render gradations of colors that might be lost with lower contrast lenses. A modern high contrast lens is analogous to a high-definition amplifier or loudspeaker. In both cases there can be greater fidelity to the original. And in both cases, one may prefer lower-definition because it is more "musical" or has nicer "tonality."

So it's horses for courses, and personal preference.

rlouzan 08-02-2019 09:40

The 50mm Summicron-m f2 DR coating was changed from SN 2.2xx.xxx (harder lens coating + more contraste).

teddy 08-03-2019 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob-F (Post 2903645)
A modern high contrast lens is analogous to a high-definition amplifier or loudspeaker. In both cases there can be greater fidelity to the original. And in both cases, one may prefer lower-definition because it is more "musical" or has nicer "tonality."

I also agree with your comment - and speaker analogy - I prefer "musical" and "tonality" - and er, how about tubes or solid state? ;)

Ko.Fe. 08-03-2019 05:07

To me rigid was superior on any color base and flat, next to awful on bw.

Richard G 08-03-2019 06:41

My red roses never recorded better than with the DR Summicron.

raid 08-03-2019 06:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. (Post 2903802)
To me rigid was superior on any color base and flat, next to awful on bw.

You may prefer a higher contrast lens for B&W?

Emile de Leon 08-03-2019 09:17

DR was my very best lens for noon time sunny days..and tech pan B&W..or any other high contrast low iso film..
DR totally reduced the high contrast of TP with the sun..and resolution was stunning..
And yes..the prints at 11x14..looked like 4x5..on TP..
For color neg and slide..nice as well..

dof 08-03-2019 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob-F (Post 2903645)
A modern high contrast lens is analogous to a high-definition amplifier or loudspeaker. In both cases there can be greater fidelity to the original. And in both cases, one may prefer lower-definition because it is more "musical" or has nicer "tonality."

So it's horses for courses, and personal preference.

Rob, Nicely put. The amplifier/loudspeaker analogy is, as Mr. Roger Hicks might have said, apposite.

I think the notion of a preference for a specific tonality nails it as well. In mixing music, filtering of very low and very high frequencies is commonly used to focus the mix. Getting distracting elements out of the way helps to guide the ear toward the important elements of a song.

Image tonality serves a similar purpose. Choices in overall and local contrast help to guide the eye across an image composition much in the same way. The inherent contrast range of the lenses we choose is the source filter in our imaging "signal chain."


Quote:

Originally Posted by teddy (Post 2903779)
I also agree with your comment - and speaker analogy - I prefer "musical" and "tonality" - and er, how about tubes or solid state? 

Teddy, Your winking tube vs. solid state comment sparks the impulses of the holy warriors in many! Of course, equally high definition amplifiers can be designed using either topology, each with their inherent sonic fingerprints. Here too, or perhaps especially(!), things boil down to a matter of personal preference.

Emile de Leon 08-03-2019 11:18

Some of the older lenses..while perhaps not as good wide open or close..
Are stunning at F5.6 or F8..
Some of the newer lenses..while better matched at all their F stops..fail to reach the highest resolutions and shadow detail of the older lenses at their best F stops.
In other words..across the board..the newer lenses perform better..
But at 1 or 2 f stops..the DR cant be beaten..if using a high resolution film stopped down.
On digital A7..the DR is just barely ok..
But on film in the right conditions..
Watch out..!

peterm1 08-03-2019 14:29

As an aside (as people may be interested), another low contrast / high resolution lens I found to be extremely good is the Ultron 50mm f2 for the Voigtlander Prominent rangefinder. At the time I owned and used one (on a Prominent) I was not all that keen on it because of its low contrast and I was shooting black and white - but I have got more wisdom now as looking back it was and is superb. :) The adapters required to adapt them to Leica or mirrorless cameras are pricey though.

A thread here on it used on a digital (NEX 3) https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3006712

Shots here:

raid 08-03-2019 14:59

I agree with Peter on the Ultron 50/2. The colors come out beautiful on the M9.
I use same adapter with the Nokton 50/1.5.

davidgao 01-05-2020 03:21

Rigid and DR are the most impressive lenses that I have ever used in color silde. They are sharp enough and very smooth from light to dark.

goamules 01-07-2020 09:17

Here on Velvia 50:


And not slide film, but Ektar:



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