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-   Leica M10, 240 family, M-P, M60 (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=207)
-   -   Is the M10 a viable used buy now? Any problems to look out for? (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169542)

SimonPJ 09-20-2019 06:54

Is the M10 a viable used buy now? Any problems to look out for?
 
Used prices for an M10 here in the UK are now about £1,000 to £1,500 below the new price.

Are there any known reliability problems which would mean it is more sensible to buy new to benefit from warranty cover?

Thanks,

Simon



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raid 09-20-2019 07:01

My personal preference has been over the years never to buy a new Leica.
This is especially applicable to digital Leica cameras to lower the loss of depreciation over the next few years.

SimonPJ 09-20-2019 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by raid (Post 2913490)
My personal preference has been over the years never to buy a new Leica.
This is especially applicable to digital Leica cameras to lower the loss of depreciation over the next few years.



That does make sense if reliability is ok.

My M8, M8.2 and M9 all made at least one trip to Germany for warranty repair for various sensor problems. My MP240 is the first one that has been completely problem free.

I was just wondering whether all versions of the M10 have been similarly reliable.


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KEVIN-XU 愛 forever 09-20-2019 08:02

I’ve been using M-10 for more than a year now. So far so good. I still keep my M9 since it has been replaced with the newest CCD sensor. Compare with M9 it’s slimmer, lighter and much faster. I have to say that M10 is a big jump. It’s very reliable. And thanks god they get rid of the video function from M240. So no mic hole on the top. Plus that iso dial makes it the most classic digital M that Leica has ever made. I got it for $5200 in like new condition which is a very good deal at that time.

Huss 09-20-2019 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by SimonPJ (Post 2913489)
Used prices for an M10 here in the UK are now about £1,000 to £1,500 below the new price.

Are there any known reliability problems which would mean it is more sensible to buy new to benefit from warranty cover?

Thanks,

Simon



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

From what I have seen here in the USA, you should be able to get a used one for much more than 1500 pounds off.
M10 is $7300 here new. I have seen them for less than $5000 used.

raid 09-20-2019 08:34

What Kevin and Huss said above; around $5000-$5500 used in very clean condition from the USA. The SL is less costly.

SimonPJ 09-20-2019 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by raid (Post 2913500)
What Kevin and Huss said above; around $5000-$5500 used in very clean condition from the USA. The SL is less costly.



Thanks Raid.

The UK used price is about the same: £4,000 to £4,500 - which is $5,000 to $5,600 at current exchange rates.

Price for a new M10 (not the M10-P) is now £5,500 - or $6,850


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Archlich 09-20-2019 08:51

Had the ISO dial issue been sorted out?

a.noctilux 09-20-2019 10:09

Simon,
my M10 has any issue since I bought new early 2017.


Some reported ISO dial failure or field selection lever loose or small trouble with Visoflex 020, and each time, Leica sorted these out quickly.


M10 and M240 family are reliable digital Leica with no big flaws.

Huss 09-20-2019 11:35

I am seeing the M10 at $4500 now.

sepiareverb 09-20-2019 12:10

I’ve been shooting a heavily used one I got about a year and a half ago, with zero issues. Finally seems like a fully sorted digital M.

Monz 09-20-2019 12:11

I bought a used M10 in UK from LCE. Looked new. I've had it for about 6 months. No problems at all.

bayernfan 09-20-2019 13:14

Leica are rather brilliant in their release strategy. M10 was just compelling enough to buy new. Then they drop the models everyone wants (-P, -D, Safari). They’re double-dippin, hard. If you’re patient and don’t mind used, great deals are to be had on “old” tech.

Huss 09-20-2019 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by bayernfan (Post 2913532)
Leica are rather brilliant in their release strategy. M10 was just compelling enough to buy new. Then they drop the models everyone wants (-P, -D, Safari). They’re double-dippin, hard. If you’re patient and don’t mind used, great deals are to be had on “old” tech.

What was seriously bogus was they removed features the M240 had like the leveling indicators (fantastic for landscape and architecture), then added it back in to the M10-P and pretended it was a great new feature.

raid 09-20-2019 15:25

It was a good marketing trick.

bayernfan 09-20-2019 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huss (Post 2913539)
What was seriously bogus was they removed features the M240 had like the leveling indicators (fantastic for landscape and architecture), then added it back in to the M10-P and pretended it was a great new feature.

Does not surprise me in the least.

They are a clever bunch. The M10-P is justifiably more expensive than the M10 (it has desirable features). However, given the number of plain M10s that have flooded the market, we know that many users upgraded. So they paid the $700 difference, and then they paid another $1500 to trade-in.

The reality is that an M10-P cost many Leica users $9500+. Absurd, yet, for some, mere pennies (in a relative sense).

traveler_101 09-20-2019 20:45

9500 American for a M10-P: "Absurd, yet for some, mere pennies . . ." 5000 on a used M10? My concern would be how long does a digital camera last? It's just a bunch of electronic circuits waiting its turn to break down or become obsolete when the newest technology is released. It's not value for your dollar.

KEVIN-XU 愛 forever 09-20-2019 21:09

Before I purchased the M10, I’ve been using M9 for 8 years. For other people, they may be using it for a decade now. Digital M provide me lots of conveniences and saved me lots of time from sending films and waiting it get developed and scanned. I believe in the long term it’s cheaper than using films nowadays.

Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy using film cameras. But I will not hesitate to purchase a digital M since it does worth the investment. I am very looking forward to the next generation of digital M.

Michael Markey 09-20-2019 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by traveler_101 (Post 2913578)
9500 American for a M10-P: "Absurd, yet for some, mere pennies . . ." 5000 on a used M10? My concern would be how long does a digital camera last? It's just a bunch of electronic circuits waiting its turn to break down or become obsolete when the newest technology is released. It's not value for your dollar.


It`s difficult to ignore those facts …. add in their somewhat parsimonious approach to "features" ,which are common on just about any other brand of camera, and it`s enough to tip the balance for some.

bayernfan 09-20-2019 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by traveler_101 (Post 2913578)
... or become obsolete when the newest technology is released. It's not value for your dollar.

This is certainly no new trend, the electronics industry thrives on perceived obsolescence. My father was recent lamenting the amount of money he's spent to have cutting edge entertainment technology. VHS, Betamax, DVD, Bluray, 4K... and you know there's something right around the corner. Brilliant marketing strategies are making "want" feel like "need".

All these points aside, I really like Leica digital cameras. They offer a fantastic shooting experience as well as superb image quality. If someone has the means by which to justify the purchase of a new one, I would never hold it against them.

I think the OP is on the right track with the purchase of a used M10. Personally, I'd wait for the release of the M11. :D

willie_901 09-21-2019 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by traveler_101 (Post 2913578)
9500 American for a M10-P: "... My concern would be how long does a digital camera last? It's just a bunch of electronic circuits waiting its turn to break down or become obsolete when the newest technology is released. It's not value for your dollar.

The M10's technology in term of technical image quality (i.e. signal-to-noise ratio) performs similarly other current 24 x 36mm sensor cameras. This degree of technical image quality is capable of delivering outstanding results in any circumstances one would choose to use a RF camera.

Obviously there will be incremental improvements in future products. Dual conversion-gain signal circuitry is the one possibility should Leica choose to license this patented technology as SONY, FUJIFILM, Nikon and others do. At the same time, I do not believe the M10's technical image quality is lacking in any way. I find it difficult to believe Leica lens owners will ever face technical image quality obsolescence when newer CMOS technologies appear.

My conclusion is the opposite. Anyone who enjoys using M.LTM lenses and appreciates operating a camera in the manner a Leica RF operates, would receive a great deal of value for their dollar with used M10.

Reliance on electronic circuitry instead of film is moot. This is so for all digital cameras.

traveler_101 09-21-2019 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by willie_901 (Post 2913619)
The M10's technology in term of technical image quality (i.e. signal-to-noise ratio) performs similarly other current 24 x 36mm sensor cameras. This degree of technical image quality is capable of delivering outstanding results in any circumstances one would choose to use a RF camera.

Obviously there will be incremental improvements in future products. Dual conversion-gain signal circuitry is the one possibility should Leica choose to license this patented technology as SONY, FUJIFILM, Nikon and others do. At the same time, I do not believe the M10's technical image quality is lacking in any way. I find it difficult to believe Leica lens owners will ever face technical image quality obsolescence when newer CMOS technologies appear.

My conclusion is the opposite. Anyone who enjoys using M.LTM lenses and appreciates operating a camera in the manner a Leica RF operates, would receive a great deal of value for their dollar with used M10.

Reliance on electronic circuitry instead of film is moot. This is so for all digital cameras.

With all due respect, I don't agree with your equating film cameras and digital ones. I am not going to dissent too radically from your initial premise: viz that sensor technology has reached a plateau for now and the cameras therefore will not be outdated immediately, but digital photography is moving forward technically and there will always be pressure to keep up with those changes. Furthermore electronic devices are subject to breakdown whether you pay $1500 or $5000 for the camera. There are a lot of good digital cameras new for 1500.

On the other hand 5,000 or 6,000 for a film M is money I would strongly consider spending because it is a camera I would have for the rest of my life. And it can be repaired indefinitely.

raid 09-21-2019 08:36

I have both, and I use both now; film and digital M cameras. Yesterday, while at the beach during sunset, I switched between the M9 with a Pentax 50 1.4 and a Standard Leica (EFKE 100) with a Canon ltm 19mm/3.5. Each has its own charm and usefulness. To complete the package, I also used the M3 (Fujicolr 400) and a Zeiss Hologon 16/8. Life is good. I am not complaining. The M10 seems to be an excellent digital M camera from what I can read online and from talking with some photographers with M10's. I recently asked a former Leica AG executive wheher he things that for my needs an M10 is a better choice next or an SL. He mentioned something about both, and he recommended to me "definitely" to get the M10 and not the SL fir using M lenses with such cameras.

benlees 09-21-2019 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by traveler_101 (Post 2913627)
With all due respect, I don't agree with your equating film cameras and digital ones. I am not going to dissent too radically from your initial premise: viz that sensor technology has reached a plateau for now and the cameras therefore will not be outdated immediately, but digital photography is moving forward technically and there will always be pressure to keep up with those changes. Furthermore electronic devices are subject to breakdown whether you pay $1500 or $5000 for the camera. There are a lot of good digital cameras new for 1500.

On the other hand 5,000 or 6,000 for a film M is money I would strongly consider spending because it is a camera I would have for the rest of my life. And it can be repaired indefinitely.




I never quite understand posts like this. There is no pressure to keep up with whatever the manufacturers want to sell you. You can, in fact, get yourself an electronic device that will last for years and years. Cameras, like other tools, should be used for purpose: in this case to make photos. Whatever perceived limitations that may include are just that: perceptions.

traveler_101 09-21-2019 09:45

"I never quite understand posts like this. There is no pressure to keep up with whatever the manufacturers want to sell you."

Sure but people live in a social milieu in which shared perception is very important. I am with you: stand out from the crowd. Relegate digital to the commonplace and make film your means of expression. Now I've had my little say . . . for whatever good it does.


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