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Roger Hicks
10-11-2009, 07:41
...are sought for those who design cameras that do not accept standard cable releases. The vast majority of the cameras I have are designed to accept the standard PC (Prontor/Compur) tapered cable release: far from perfect, but pretty damn' good.

I'm planning on copying a LOT of old (1950s) Kodachromes and other slides, using my Bowens Illumitran slide copier and a Nikon D70 with 90/2.5 Vivitar Series 1 macro on a Kaiser copy stand, AND THERE'S NO STANDARDISED CABLE RELEASE FITTING ON THE CAMERA (as with all too many electronic wonders of the last 20 years).

The best idea I've thought of so far is forcing them to wear an eye-patch over one eye for 4 hours every day: not incapacitating, no permanent damage, but a reminder of how bloody inconvenient life can be if you don't think ahead a bit. Any more ideas?

Cheers,

R.

raid
10-11-2009, 07:45
Roger: shoot them!

Good luck with your extensive slide project. You will need lots of patience.

MickH
10-11-2009, 08:06
Roger, why do you need a cable release?

ruby.monkey
10-11-2009, 08:18
Make them memorise every entry in every menu of a Pentax K20D. And then make them explain each one to their parents.

Roger Hicks
10-11-2009, 08:26
Make them memorise every entry in every menu of a Pentax K20D. And then make them explain each one to their parents.

Not sure I'd call it 'mild' -- should I then give them the option of having a fingernail torn out with red-hot pincers, as being less painful? -- but it's certainly elegant!

Cheers,

R.

Roger Hicks
10-11-2009, 08:28
Roger, why do you need a cable release?

Well, I was thinking of using tungsten rather than flash, and besides, it's a lot more comfortable. Drop the slide in; press the tit; remove; replace; usw.

Cheers,

R.

Roger Hicks
10-11-2009, 08:29
Roger: shoot them!

Good luck with your extensive slide project. You will need lots of patience.

Dear Raid,

The patience, I already have. I used to prepare multiple copies of slide shows on an Illumitran in the 70s...

For the shooting: small bore, I think.

Cheers,

R.

MartinP
10-11-2009, 08:32
Well, as the camera designers were required to show a future revenue-stream based on accessory sales I'd say they did a good job. Why anyone would actually buy the camera is another question - that one is probably down to the marketing department though, not the technical department.

I suppose this is the quickest and most effective way of digitising the slides ? About twenty years ago I think we had an Illumitran in the lab I worked at. That is a device like a small copy-stand, with a flash and mixing-chamber as a light source. To get a more consistent light-balance we fired the flash once manually, then once again synced to the camera, as soon as it recharged. So far as I recall it was fairly solid and had no cable-release needed - just a gentle press on the SLR shutter release.

EDIT: While I was typing this, I see that Roger has written that he will be using a tungsten light-source in place of the flash. Presumably that makes for more vulnerability to wobbles in the device due to a longer shutter-speed.

rolleistef
10-11-2009, 08:34
...buy a remote controle, or use the self timer?

Torture idea : lock them in a unsufficiantly ventilated darkroom with both dektol and rapid fixer for 2 hours.

Roger Hicks
10-11-2009, 08:39
Well, as the camera designers were required to show a future revenue-stream based on accessory sales I'd say they did a good job. Why anyone would actually buy the camera is another question - that one is probably down to the marketing department though, not the technical department.

I suppose this is the quickest and most effective way of digitising the slides ? About twenty years ago I think we had an Illumitran in the lab I worked at. That is a device like a small copy-stand, with a flash and mixing-chamber as a light source. To get a more consistent light-balance we fired the flash once manually, then once again synced to the camera, as soon as it recharged. So far as I recall it was fairly solid and had no cable-release needed - just a gentle press on the SLR shutter release.

Yes, I meant for the SLR; the Illumitran just synchs via the normal piece of electric string, though come to think of it, I fear I'll need an adapter for that too (no PC contact) -- though as I said, I was planning on using the tungsten 'pilot light' instead of flash. I just find it a lot easier (after literally thousands of exposures with an Illumitran) to have a cable release on the camera.

It's not a procedure I'd use for maximum quality but I have the contrast control unit (and I can always piddle around with contrast in the camera menu or post production) but it's hundreds of slides taken by my late father-in-law from the 40s, 50s and 60s. Quality is mostly pretty poor, and all but the best are destined for the dump, but it would be nice to have electronic records of many of them that are not significantly worse than the original trannies.

Cheers,

R.

Roger Hicks
10-11-2009, 08:42
...buy a remote controle, or use the self timer?

Torture idea : lock them in a unsufficiantly ventilated darkroom with both dektol and rapid fixer for 2 hours.
Dear Stéphane,

Self timer takes too long, and given that cable releases were standardized around 100 years ago, I take it ill to have to buy a camera-specific release for a single project.

There is a certain charm in the torture, though. Perhaps one should let the chemicals mature overnight first?

Maybe I should wait until the M9 arrives, then use the Visoflex and 65 Elmar.

Cheers,

R.

MartinP
10-11-2009, 08:47
Aha, not one of those times to make 4x5 internegs then (if that film is even available anymore, I didn't check though).

Probably the reason we 'only' had an Illumitran in the lab was that there wasn't that much call for slide dupes, so we never had zillions of shutter actuations to make. Plus I don't think the old Pentax(?) was motor-driven either, so it was manual wind every time.

No normal flash-sync is another nice way to get some revenue and trap users in to a specific brand of course. :(

Good luck with the project and I hope there isn't lots of bending down required to swap the slides out, bearing in mind recovery plans after the hospital trip etc.

ferider
10-11-2009, 08:53
Dear Roger,

just some random thoughts:

- I have two 500 series Hasselblad cameras that take the same lenses but different cable releases. Due to engineering requirements.

- The "standard" mechanical cable release does not allow for cable-less remote control of your D70.

- Maybe scanning the slides might be easier and more efficient ?

Best,

Roland.

payasam
10-11-2009, 09:00
Send them to a desert island for a week and confiscate their toothbrushes.

wlewisiii
10-11-2009, 09:06
Dear Raid,

For the shooting: small bore, I think.


Nah, 12 gauge loaded with rock salt. Very painfull but very rarely fatal... :cool:

Doesn't Nikon at least have something like Canon's electronic release that you plug into the side? At least my A2E did that...

(edit: I see a later post mentioning a camera specific release. At least Canon's was standard in the line)

William

Roger Hicks
10-11-2009, 09:10
Dear Roger,

just some random thoughts:

- I have two 500 series Hasselblad cameras that take the same lenses but different cable releases. Due to engineering requirements.

- The "standard" mechanical cable release does not allow for cable-less remote control of your D70.

- Maybe scanning the slides might be easier and more efficient ?

Best,

Roland.

Dear Roland,

Yes, the other possibility is the (?20) slide holder for the Epson 1680 but I had considered this and suspect (I'm not sure) that the Illumitran might be quite a bit quicker.

Light bulb comes on over head: maybe I can get an article out of comparing the various routes, and get paid for doing it.

Thanks very much for the mental kick up the bum.

Cheers,

R.

Roger Hicks
10-11-2009, 09:13
Send them to a desert island for a week and confiscate their toothbrushes.

With nothing to eat except slightly underripe Alfonso mangos. Then there's the triple torture of the soreness of the mouth from underripe mangos; the knowledge that ripe Alfonsos are the finest in the world, but they have to be ripe; and the inevitable third effect of a surfeit of mangos...

No, that's too cruel.

Cheers,

R.

MickH
10-11-2009, 09:16
Make 'em copy the slides for you using the self-timer.

ferider
10-11-2009, 09:20
Light bulb comes on over head: maybe I can get an article out of comparing the various routes, and get paid for doing it.

I would be very interested in this comparison, Roger. Particularly since chromes with no ICE are involved.

I'm routinely scanning Kodakchromes for the local museum (have done over thousand by now) and dust and scratches are painful.

Cheers,

Roland.

migtex
10-11-2009, 10:19
Roger

Since you are using a D70 the best approach IMHO is to use the IR remote triger.
Just go to a chinese shop and buy a remote for TV.
Follow the instructions to scan the entire IR spectro and chose the button when it fires the camera. All set.
cost: 4£.
Good luck.

PS- on another note, this beahvior is a standard in industry, the cell phone charger is bigger then the cell phone itself and they vary even on the same manufacturer. Why they don't standardized on USB port por all products.. just bugs me!

Brian Sweeney
10-11-2009, 10:48
Make them implement the D70 firmware using Edsac Machine Code.

I have the Edsac Programmer's Manual if you want to lend it to them.

rxmd
10-11-2009, 11:07
Do you have a D70 or a D70s?

The D70s has an electronic cable relase socket; if you don't feel like buying the original MC-DC1 cable release you can build a cable release yourself (http://wiki.berndlux.de/doku.php?id=elektr:kabeld70s#kabelausloeser). (Sorry for the link in German, the pictures are fairly self-explanatory). Put a threaded socket in it so you can use a standard cable release. Better still, have them do it. ;)

If you've got a D70, the only option is getting the IR release. A copy will cost under $10 on eBay.

Cable releases are getting rare in autofocus cameras, mainly because of the idea that you should be able to control focus and shutter separately. However I have here a couple of 1950s to 1970s Nikons that don't accept standard cable releases either, so at least it's no "innovation" of the electronic age. ;)

Sorry for not offering advanced torture methods but I think there were plenty of good ideas already.

Roger Hicks
10-11-2009, 11:17
Do you have a D70 or a D70s?

The D70s has an electronic cable relase socket; if you don't feel like buying the original MC-DC1 cable release you can build a cable release yourself (http://wiki.berndlux.de/doku.php?id=elektr:kabeld70s#kabelausloeser). (Sorry for the link in German, the pictures are fairly self-explanatory). Put a threaded socket in it so you can use a standard cable release. Better still, have them do it. ;)

If you've got a D70, the only option is getting the IR release. A copy will cost under $10 on eBay.

Cable releases are getting rare in autofocus cameras, mainly because of the idea that you should be able to control focus and shutter separately. However I have here a couple of 1950s to 1970s Nikons that don't accept standard cable releases either, so at least it's no "innovation" of the electronic age. ;)

Sorry for not offering advanced torture methods but I think there were plenty of good ideas already.

Indeed, Leica and Nikon 'collar' fittings are not taper PC -- but at least you could use a simple adapter.

It's not so much the hassle of getting or building a cable release -- thanks for the link, by the way -- as the fact that there was a perfectly good standard, still widely embraced, which has been wilfully abandoned.

A very kind forum member has volunteered to send me a spare IR release -- I hesitate to publish his name without permission, as he made the offer in a PM, but I am very grateful -- or I should have tried the TV IR idea too.

Fortunately it's not exactly urgent but it's a project I have in mind for when I have moved the studio from the outside atelier to the rear grenier (which is level with the atelier in the back garden because the house is set into the side of a hill; the grenier is over the former wine-cellar, now a darkroom.)

Cheers,

R.

rxmd
10-11-2009, 11:38
Depending on how many slides you want to scan, you could also buy a used Nikon or Reflecta scanner with a slide feeder, scan your slides in batch, and then sell the scanner again. You would probably run litte or no monetary loss, seeing how the market currently works, and you wouldn't have to sit next to it and change slides and press buttons all the time.

Roger Hicks
10-11-2009, 11:51
Depending on how many slides you want to scan, you could also buy a used Nikon or Reflecta scanner with a slide feeder, scan your slides in batch, and then sell the scanner again. You would probably run litte or no monetary loss, seeing how the market currently works, and you wouldn't have to sit next to it and change slides and press buttons all the time.

Very true, and probably an excellent idea, apart from the hassle of buying and selling the damn' thing. (This from someone who is spending/wasting hours a day on RFF whille recuperating from an appendix operation).

Cheers,

R.

Pablito
10-11-2009, 11:56
Several very simple (and better) solutions as outlined above. I think you just wanted an excuse to think up creative torture methods.

rxmd
10-11-2009, 12:01
Very true, and probably an excellent idea, apart from the hassle of buying and selling the damn' thing. (This from someone who is spending/wasting hours a day on RFF whille recuperating from an appendix operation).

You could have a friendly surgeon take out their appendices and have them type your RFF comments for you, while you order a used scanner off eBay. :)

Roger Hicks
10-11-2009, 12:02
Several very simple (and better) solutions as outlined above. I think you just wanted an excuse to think up creative torture methods.

Actually, I wanted something to hand out at next photokina to camera designers...

Cheers,

R.

Roger Hicks
10-11-2009, 12:03
You could have a friendly surgeon take out their appendices and have them type your RFF comments for you, while you order a used scanner off eBay. :)

Brilliant! Probably the best yet!

Cheers,

R.

Sparrow
10-11-2009, 12:08
where's Torquemada when he's most needed ... siting behind the TV is too good for them if you ask me ... and the Archers omnibus; what's that all about, what fool thought I hadn't heard too much already ... Bill Oddie ... Garrrrrrrrrr

I have a list somewhere

rbiemer
10-11-2009, 12:12
-- as the fact that there was a perfectly good standard, still widely embraced, which has been willfully abandoned.

This reminds me of something else...oh, yes, 35mm film.

:eek:

Rob

charjohncarter
10-11-2009, 17:10
I do this every week. I use a Pentax DL with a screw mount macro lens and then a 60s slide copier. Then I place handmade lightbox white piece of plastic in front of the copier and remotely fire an electronic flash. I check the histogram and then feed and fire. I then go to PSE6 and hit auto levels.

1941 Kodachrome taken by my father in law:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3218/2390398842_248f3e9082.jpg

and 1946 Kodachrome again taken by my father in law:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3362/3562806527_61d4904171.jpg

Al Patterson
10-11-2009, 17:15
...are sought for those who design cameras that do not accept standard cable releases. The vast majority of the cameras I have are designed to accept the standard PC (Prontor/Compur) tapered cable release: far from perfect, but pretty damn' good.

I'm planning on copying a LOT of old (1950s) Kodachromes and other slides, using my Bowens Illumitran slide copier and a Nikon D70 with 90/2.5 Vivitar Series 1 macro on a Kaiser copy stand, AND THERE'S NO STANDARDISED CABLE RELEASE FITTING ON THE CAMERA (as with all too many electronic wonders of the last 20 years).

The best idea I've thought of so far is forcing them to wear an eye-patch over one eye for 4 hours every day: not incapacitating, no permanent damage, but a reminder of how bloody inconvenient life can be if you don't think ahead a bit. Any more ideas?

Cheers,

R.

Nah, waterboard these sorry designers.

That goes for DSLRs as well...

Al Patterson
10-11-2009, 17:18
Make them implement the D70 firmware using Edsac Machine Code.

I have the Edsac Programmer's Manual if you want to lend it to them.

Why machine code? make them code in either binary or hex.

And if you want REAL torture, make them use Octal...

amateriat
10-11-2009, 19:01
Amazing: Konica went to the trouble of putting a side-mounted, real cable release on the Hexar RF. Fat lot of good it did them. (What's that bit about no good deed going unpunished? :mad:)

Roger: I think scanning is the ticket. Dedicated film scanner is tops of course, but if the files don't need to be pluperfect, a good flatbed with tranny adapter will do. (My tabloid-size UMAX has a holder for scanning 32 slides at a time.)

And, speaking of punishment, I've got just the thing: make 'em all moderate Pnet for a week.


- Barrett

-doomed-
10-11-2009, 19:27
The best idea I've thought of so far is forcing them to wear an eye-patch over one eye for 4 hours every day: not incapacitating, no permanent damage, but a reminder of how bloody inconvenient life can be if you don't think ahead a bit. Any more ideas?

Cheers,

R.

Roger,
As far as torture goes this plan of yours, while annoying is not really going to affect those engineers. I used to enjoy giving new hourly techs at my old job fuel pump jobs, horrible experience.

One must drain the tank once the retaining ring is loosened far enough,but you only learn once you've done it once. With that in mind I never said a word as they stand next to a fuel recovery tank , and a bit of gas on thier shirt and hands which becomes noxious after a few minutes of exposure. If the nauseating stench of fresh gasoline mixing with stale gas in the recovery tank aren't enough the slight sting caused by the skin irritation combined with the inability remove that smell from their skin for a few days will continue to make them come close to vomitting is fantastic. It's torture because there is no quick solution to program or long menu sequence to remove the smell.

Translate that into putting them in a small room with that sort of stench(rapidfix comes to mind) eminating for hours, then have them handle some wasted film soaked in the same. Fixer tends to hold it's smell in skin almost as well as gasoline. Failing that late night phone calls demanding a cable release would suffice, or setting off large flares in front of their homes combined with some abnormally offensive death metal blasted at full volume for an hour should do the trick.

-Scott

Trius
10-11-2009, 19:37
Make them write a PhD level dissertation on the political and logical debates between Roger Hicks and Bill Mattocks on RFF.

-doomed-
10-11-2009, 19:43
Would it be polite to offer them a razor blade with a note that reads.
Remember , it's down the road , not across the street. He said mild torture not suicide inducing levels of torture.

Stephen S. Mack
10-11-2009, 19:45
How about boiling in oil? Nobody speaks well of that.

Or, keelhauling, maybe?:p

With best regards.

Stephen

Tom Diaz
10-11-2009, 19:47
...are sought for those who design cameras that do not accept standard cable releases. The vast majority of the cameras I have are designed to accept the standard PC (Prontor/Compur) tapered cable release: far from perfect, but pretty damn' good.

I'm planning on copying a LOT of old (1950s) Kodachromes and other slides, using my Bowens Illumitran slide copier and a Nikon D70 with 90/2.5 Vivitar Series 1 macro on a Kaiser copy stand, AND THERE'S NO STANDARDISED CABLE RELEASE FITTING ON THE CAMERA (as with all too many electronic wonders of the last 20 years).

The best idea I've thought of so far is forcing them to wear an eye-patch over one eye for 4 hours every day: not incapacitating, no permanent damage, but a reminder of how bloody inconvenient life can be if you don't think ahead a bit. Any more ideas?

Cheers,

R.

I can't top the torture suggestions already provided, but why don't you scan those slides instead of photographing them?

Tom

gnarayan
10-11-2009, 19:56
.
I'm planning on copying a LOT of old (1950s) Kodachromes and other slides, using my Bowens Illumitran slide copier and a Nikon D70 with 90/2.5 Vivitar Series 1 macro on a Kaiser copy stand, AND THERE'S NO STANDARDISED CABLE RELEASE FITTING ON THE CAMERA (as with all too many electronic wonders of the last 20 years).


USB cable into computer with Nikon Capture.

Cheers,
-Gautham

-doomed-
10-11-2009, 19:56
How about boiling in oil? Nobody speaks well of that.

Or, keelhauling, maybe?:p

With best regards.

Stephen
Boiling oil seems like you mean to kill them, keel hauling will most assuredly kill them.

Force feed them mcdonalds and direct them to a bathroom that is conveniently out of order.

Roger Hicks
10-12-2009, 08:56
Use the self timer, what's the big deal?

Time. I get REALLY BORED waiting for the camera to go off. In the right circustances I can get very bored, very quickly. Other times, I'm not worried by much longer delays. It's all a question of context.

Believe me, I am familiar with the self-timer trick. I've been using it for over four decades. Which is how I know it annoys me so much. I am, to be frank, astonished that others do not find it tiresome; as astonished, it seems, as others are that I do find it tiresome.

Cheers,

R.

Brian Sweeney
10-12-2009, 09:11
Why machine code? make them code in either binary or hex.

And if you want REAL torture, make them use Octal...

I hated Octal. Much prefer HEX. Octal makes sense on the PDP-11. HEX for the VAX.

But the EDSAC was unique...

http://www.cs.clemson.edu/~mark/edsac.html

dee
10-12-2009, 09:15
See thread ' If you were only to have one [ Leica ] lens ' Torture enough ?
Why can't I take anything seriously ?

gnarayan
10-12-2009, 10:32
USB cable into computer with Nikon Capture.

I should not post things at 12AM without previewing - what I was trying to get at was that you can control the D70 tethered to a laptop over USB with Nikon Capture. There is a section in the manual about this but I never read those things anyway. I'm pretty sure you can get the images to download directly to hard disk with Nikon Capture - I'm certain you can with gphoto2 on linux.

Granted this means having a laptop next to your slide copier setup, but if the final goal is to get them on a computer anyway... It isn't a cable release, but a single mouse-click several times and there isn't the delay associated with the self-timer method.

There are also knockoff wireless remotes but I've seen the original Nikon one on ebay for all of 1 GBP so I don't think there is any particular reasons for even mild torture.

re: digital cameras not maintaining old standards - USB is a much more powerful standard than the old cable release. Perhaps this is a case where us youngins tease you a little for "getting along there" Roger :D

Cheers,
-Gautham

Roger Hicks
10-12-2009, 11:21
I should not post things at 12AM without previewing - what I was trying to get at was that you can control the D70 tethered to a laptop over USB with Nikon Capture. There is a section in the manual about this but I never read those things anyway. I'm pretty sure you can get the images to download directly to hard disk with Nikon Capture - I'm certain you can with gphoto2 on linux.

Granted this means having a laptop next to your slide copier setup, but if the final goal is to get them on a computer anyway... It isn't a cable release, but a single mouse-click several times and there isn't the delay associated with the self-timer method.

There are also knockoff wireless remotes but I've seen the original Nikon one on ebay for all of 1 GBP so I don't think there is any particular reasons for even mild torture.

re: digital cameras not maintaining old standards - USB is a much more powerful standard than the old cable release. Perhaps this is a case where us youngins tease you a little for "getting along there" Roger :D

Cheers,
-Gautham

Dear Gautham,

If someone made a standardized USB cable release I'd probably buy one. But hell, never mind the software, even USB itself isn't fully standardized! How many sizes are there? I think I have three. And USB and mechanical releases are not exactly incompatible. It's a nasty, penny-pinching idea; as I said, like using a 5mm tripod socket because the designer is too mean/ stupid/ arrogant to realize that there are standards out there. THAT is what deserves the torture.

The idea of a tethered D70 running straight to the computer is attractive, though, and I thank you for the suggestion. Maybe I'll look closer into that.

Cheers,

R.

gnarayan
10-12-2009, 11:59
If someone made a standardized USB cable release I'd probably buy one. But hell, never mind the software, even USB itself isn't fully standardized! How many sizes are there? I think I have three.

At least 12 (including ones from manufacturers who have a standard USB A at one end and some proprietary thing on the other) around me right now. The nice thing about the standard is that I can take a digital camera (say my Olympus E510 with its proprietary contact) and my MP3 player (an Archos 5 )with its proprietary contact and since the other end of these silly dongles is a bog standard USB port and they can both talk to each other, I can connect the two and view my Olympus RAWs on my mp3 player with its much bigger and better screen. The same port to trip the shutter. Occasionally to power the camera even.

Its a lot more flexible than a steel cable with a button press and a piston at the end I think. Just an opinion :)

Hopefully the USB cable thing works. I did something similar for macro work a while ago - lots of hitting spacebar but it got the job done.

Cheers,
-Gautham

rxmd
10-12-2009, 12:14
But hell, never mind the software, even USB itself isn't fully standardized! How many sizes are there?

Then again, I have here a whole bunch of cable releases and on one end they're all different (which stops me from doing neat things like replacing the broken built-in cable release on that Kiev pistol grip without major mechanicla modifications). However, as with USB, it's the other end that counts.

Incidentally the D70 uses a standard USB Mini B plug as per the USB 2.0 specification.