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saxshooter
06-16-2005, 08:03
Has this happened to any of you? Shooting the RD-1 without a card! I know if you have the LCD flipped out it tells you. But if you have the LCD turned in (or have the camera in a half case as I do), you won't know. And yes, the red light blinks (but it is covered by your right hand when you shoot).

I haven't found a setting in the camera to prevent this. Epson, are you listening? How about a firmware update to prevent you from shooting if you don't have a card in your camera?

mtokue
06-16-2005, 08:11
Um........... do you ever look at the dial on the top of the Camera?
Mike.

mtokue
06-16-2005, 08:24
Sorry if that comes across as being a bit abrupt and possibly rude but. even film cameras can be used without film.... What would be next.... an alarm to let you know that youve left the lens cap on?!. Or perhaps a new firmware to stop the shutter if the photograph is going to be too over or under exposed?!
Mike.

Peter Klein
06-16-2005, 08:57
What would be next.... an alarm to let you know that youve left the lens cap on?!. Mike.

Actually, the M6TTL has such an alarm. When the light is very low, the meter's red led dot blinks. Lens cap on translates as "light very, very low. It's saved me on a couple of occasions.

--Peter

mtokue
06-16-2005, 09:02
But can you still trip the shutter......Yes

saxshooter
06-16-2005, 12:48
Well gee, if the camera WON'T trip the shutter when the disk is full (and it occasionally doesn't trip it for some mysterious reason as discussed in this forum) then why couldn't it do the same when there's no card in the camera?

It's an electronic shutter with many mechanisms governing it shooting or not shooting.

I glance at my aperture/shutter speed before I shoot. I personally find that cluster of dials not to be the easiest thing to glance at for a status update. Anyhow, I put a 1gb card in there so I know that I will have enough frames for a shoot, hence I never glance at that that dial.

Most digital cameras I know have a provision for not being able to shoot with no card in it.

I don't use lens caps, and most film rangefinder cameras you can glance at the rewind crank to see that it is turning to see that the film is engaged (and that there is film in the camera).

No worries, I can learn a new habit. Glance at the dial. :p

Sean Reid
06-16-2005, 16:17
It hasn't happened to me but I have left with the camera and no battery (fortunately not for an assignment). I favor the old-fashioned methods, checking the rewind knob to be sure film is advancing, checking the exposures remaining dial on the R-D1, etc. I do often seem to forget that this is an electronic camera....I've pulled the card out with the camera still switched on, etc. I prefer little to no electronic nannying.

Cheers,

Sean

saxshooter
06-16-2005, 16:51
Cheers, Sean. I don't like electronic nannying either. I wasn't asking for any additional bells or beeps -- it was more of some sort of obvious/positive sign that something was "wrong" -- ie., the camera does not fire. Something is wrong.

If one forgot a lens cap on the camera, on aperture priority, you'd have a pretty long exposure upon tripping the shutter (you'd hear the shutter open for a long time). That would tell you something was wrong. If you were on manual exposure, looking through the VF the meter would tell you "underexposure". That is an immediate sign that something isn't right.

If you didn't have a battery in the camera, the camera wouldn't turn on. You'd know immediately something was amiss.

The R-D1 is my "off duty" camera. I've had it about 2 weeks. One day last week I got home from work and left the pair of beastly Canon Mark II's by the door. My little son was doing something interesting, so I grab the R-D1, flip the switch to ON, I focus and meter and shoot shoot shoot. The camera shoots, I cock the shutter, the camera shoots again. With the camera at your eye, everything sounds and feels RIGHT.

I hit the screen button to review what I've shot. Lo and behold, no card.

So yeah, maybe I got sidetracked the night before downloading the disk and went to sleep without putting the disk back into the camera. That's bad habit number 1 that will be remedied. Take a disk out of the camera, put another disk in. Immediately.

When I worked with film cameras, I always put a fresh roll into the body (I pretty much used one type of film) immediately after I took the exposed roll out. Good habit.

Digital perhaps has made me develop sloppy habits.

I still think Epson overlooked this quite simple "check". As it stands, if the disk is full, camera will not fire. If the buffer is full (hasn't happened to me) camera won't fire. So if there is NO DISK, camera shouldn't fire either.

mtokue
06-16-2005, 21:16
Well "Saxshooter" I have apologised about my initial post.
Let me try to explain. I think that this forum is/has become one of the defacto places on the 'Net" for people to gain/glean information about the RD-1,
I presume by your comment "Are you Listening Epson" that you have read that Epson is indeed aware of this site and is watching.
I feel that we actually have to be carefull with what is stated.
The fact that the shutter is able to fire without a memory card.... Do you really think that this was overlooked?... I don't think so.. Think about it... If there is a card that is full it won't fire I think this is normal. ( same as film) If there is no card shutter will fire (also same as film). What you are asking for is exactly what Sean calls "electronic nannying"
You also state in your last post.
"If you didn't have a battery in the camera, the camera wouldn't turn on. You'd know immediately something was amiss."
Please tell me How? by looking for what? a Trial shot?
You stated already in your first post that the red light is covered by your hand.
If it is by looking at the dial then you'd know at a glance if there was a card and whether you had any exposures left.

Hey Please don't get me wrong I am not trying to be difficult. I just feel that this "feature" that you call an error is not really an error and I'd rather that the other real problems are addressed (By Epson)

jlw
06-16-2005, 21:42
If there were going to be a shutter release lock when there was no card in the camera (my Nikon D100 has such a feature) then there'd also have to be a way to disable the lock, since otherwise there would be no way to test-fire the camera without putting a card in it (not always convenient.)

On the D100 the lock is enabled/disabled via a custom function, buried along with a gazillion other custom functions in a hard-to-use menu. Personally, I'd rather just learn to be careful than have the R-D 1 cluttered up with that kind of stuff.

Incidentally, I learned the hard way that it IS possible to keep releasing the shutter even after the card is full -- I shot about 10 shots of "nothing" that way! The red light blinked, but I didn't pay any attention. You'd think a blinking red light three inches from your face would be a good enough warning that something is amiss, but, well, I missed it!

As I said, I'd rather not have the R-D 1 cluttered up with idiot-proofing features -- but a repeater for this light visible in the finder might solve such problems without being too intrusive. Something to add to the wish list for the next-generation digital RF, if such a thing ever appears...

Sean Reid
06-17-2005, 03:36
Saxshooter,

As far as the card check goes, I think the best way is to look at the exposures remaining dial. When I first turn the camera on, I always watch for the hand on that dial to swing around. If it stays at "0", that's my cue that I forgot to put a card in. So the camera does give you an indication you can use.

Cheers,

Sean

mtokue
06-17-2005, 04:13
Incidentally, I learned the hard way that it IS possible to keep releasing the shutter even after the card is full -- I shot about 10 shots of "nothing" that way! The red light blinked, but I didn't pay any attention. You'd think a blinking red light three inches from your face would be a good enough warning that something is amiss, but, well, I missed it!

jlw, This could be a problem.. I just double checked with my camera twice, And no matter what I try I am not able to take a shot with mine when the card is full.....
You might want to double check.
Mike.

saxshooter
06-17-2005, 05:14
Thanks for all of your answers.

I apologize for not introducing myself upon joining this forum a few weeks ago. I'm a photojournalist based in Washington DC thrilled to be using my Leica lenses again. I'm a staff photographer for a wire service and a lot of my work involves shooting and transmitting news images on a daily basis, often a few times a day (shoot, transmit, shoot, transmit). Although I purchased the RD-1 to be my off-duty camera, I hope to be able to take it out on the road occasionally.

While working, there can be a lot of distractions. Scheduling and events can change at the last minute. Often I am in the middle of transmitting and I have to shove my laptop back into my bag and run off. So what some may consider to be a minor issue -- a fix for no card in the camera (and I'm just asking for the camera not to shoot) -- can be a major issue when it comes down to missing pictures.

My Canon digitals have a custom function to disable shooting when there is no card in the camera. I just took a quick poll of my colleagues sitting around me. Everyone has this function set this way. If I grab my camera to make a quick shot, I don't often glance at the dials/readouts. Maybe I'm in a dark room and they're not visible (ok, on the Canons you can depress the LCD light, but thats another step to slow you down). I walk around with the cameras set on some level of auto exposure/auto white balance so that I know that that first grab shot will be properly exposed. Only afterwards will I make adjustments to exposure, etc. And I'd know immediately if the card was still in the computer from my last transmission session.

So for me, the solution is quite simple. Put another card into the camera when I take one out.

So I seem to be in the minority here with this issue. Let's hope if this happens to you, you will think of me and this thread. ;)

Best regards,
Charlie

Andy K
06-17-2005, 05:20
...Or perhaps a new firmware to stop the shutter if the photograph is going to be too over or under exposed?!
Mike.

My QL17 GIII won't fire if the exposure is going to be over or under unless you are set to fully manual.

mtokue
06-17-2005, 06:57
My QL17 GIII won't fire if the exposure is going to be over or under unless you are set to fully manual.

Andy, Thats great! It will stop you from tripping the shutter with the Cap on, like I have on a few occasions!
Mike.

jlw
06-17-2005, 07:39
jlw, This could be a problem.. I just double checked with my camera twice, And no matter what I try I am not able to take a shot with mine when the card is full.....
You might want to double check.
Mike.

Mike, thanks for the heads-up. I'll check it out again.

I suspect that when you're in JPEG mode and shooting quickly (which is what I was doing when this happened) the shutter doesn't lock until the buffer flushes, enabling the controller to "discover" that the card is full.

But I'll try it again and see if I can reproduce the effect.

Sean Reid
06-17-2005, 17:54
Charlie,

Two nights ago, I went to an informal gathering of some NE prof. photographers in NH. Grabbed the R-D1 on my way out the door, switched it on later when people wanted to try it and....no battery. So while you're training yourself to always replace the card, I'll be training myself to never leave the batt. compartment empty. Thankfully, I'm more careful when packing up for a shoot.

Cheers,

Sean

jlw
06-17-2005, 21:36
It won't work for everyone, but one thing I do is that if I remove the card or battery and don't replace it right away, I leave the card door or battery door open. You do have to be more careful about how you set down the camera, but the door flapping away is a difficult-to-overlook reminder.