PDA

View Full Version : Experiment v. questions


Roger Hicks
05-13-2009, 08:48
How many of us waste time asking questions when a quick, cheap experiment could solve it all?

Will I like Tessars? Dunno, try one and see. Should I use a soft release? Dunno, try one and see. How important are lens shades? Try shooting with and without, and see. Is Tri-X better than HP5 Plus? No-one can tell you: try a couple of rolls of each.

Is it because we can log on to RFF when we really should be doing something else? Classic 'displacement activity'?

Yes, the answers to a lot of these questions will cost $10-100 if you buy the kit (or film) in question. What's your time worth? Or are you afraid of (a) taking pictures and (b) forming your own opinion, without relying on somene else?

Of course there are major expenses where you want as much advance information as possible: few of us can afford to by a 24/1.4 Summilux on a whim. I certainly can't. Then, forum inquiries can be invaluable. But there are a lot of minor purchases where it would be quicker, easier and more informative to try it and see.

Sorry if this question appears a bit aggressively worded, but you might want to think how it applies to you. I've certainly thought how it applies to me.

Tashi delek,

R.

rogue_designer
05-13-2009, 08:54
Yeah, I can see some value in it, if the "try it" requires a serious investment either in money or time.

But your point is well appreciated. Some things, even with the best advice in the world, can't really be known until you experience it yourself. I can appreciate doing some research. But at some point, you need to step away from the forum, and out into the world.

Benjamin
05-13-2009, 09:06
Is it because we can log on to RFF when we really should be doing something else? Classic 'displacement activity'?



I agree, though I personally I have only ever asked equipment related questions here when I only want to buy once, and I find the advice given by people here with more experience of .... item of equipment invaluable.

I mean, if you want to know which version of the M2 is likely to be best as a user, then Tom A's input is always helpful. Though, there is of course no guarantee that any one camera suits everybody who is interested in them, it often does not hurt to ask. Sometimes it does.

HP5+ against Tri-X strikes me as a perfect example of your point however. I often wonder how people expect to learn anything without actually trying something out, for themselves.

In fact I once over heard a chap in a camera store ask "When should I press the shutter button?".

The answer to his question would of course only have to cost him a few frames. Though it might, however, take him a lifetime to figure it out, for himself.

Nikon Bob
05-13-2009, 09:09
I would agree that if it is cheap to try then just go and do it and form your own opinions. The catch here is what is cheap to me may not be to someone else. On expensive kit you should ask opinions on it before splashing out for it. You have to keep in mind opinions are like a certain body part and everybody has one. Ultimately, even for expensive gear you have to just try it to see if it is right for you and to find out which opinions on the gear were valid from your POV.

Bob

bobkonos
05-13-2009, 09:12
I agree with Roger. I cannot count the number of times I have read a thread with quesyions that made me think: "Geez buddy, try it out and see." A photographer named Fred Picker (Zone VI Studios, remember?) taught me that 25+ years ago through his newsletters. He was the essence of pragmatic and I learned a lot from him. Nothing beats learning from experience, especially in this "I want it now" world of ours.

Now, if someone is thinking of buying an expensive (for them) kit, well ok the opinions of those, while only opinions, could help. But when someone asks "Which black & white film for my M2?", well.......

mabelsound
05-13-2009, 09:19
Yeah but, when you can't go out and shoot, and you've got this stuff on your mind, posting it here is a great way to elicit a bunch of interesting responses. Like today I spent about four hours printing hundreds of pages of crap for my upcoming (lord help me) tenure review. Nothing to do but make sure the printer doesn't jam and ask RFF to tell me the differences among all the different Leica collapsible f/2 50's.

projectbluebird
05-13-2009, 09:24
I prefer trying and doing, to asking. Over the last few years I have managed to acquire somewhere around 40+ cameras. All different formats, vintages, usability, etc. All used. Last time I tried adding up my costs I quit about halfway through, for the same amount of money I would have been able to get an M7 and a couple of faster primes. New. (or any number of new, expensive camera systems)

If I had to go back, I think I'd do the same thing over again. Because of my photographic adventures I have learned that I like using RF's better than SLR's. I have learned when medium format fits my shooting style, and even what my shooting style is.
(can't stand using large format, but it does make nice negatives)
I have also learned much more practical things; about film, composition, color, chemistry, optics and mechanics. That last one especially comes in handy, using older equipment.

Most of all, I've had fun. I like to think that I've improved my own photography to boot.

Dave Wilkinson
05-13-2009, 09:32
Like most Yorkshiremen, I call a ***** a shovel - and don't suffer bulls*#+t gladly! sorry - but I believe that the answer to most of the questions asked around here, is allready known to the enquirer!, and is for some reason, a form of attention seeking, in similar manner to the few people that post three or four chapters reply to some banal or nonsensical post, that most would not even bother with. Yes, as I recover from my illness, I have spent a lot more time around here than I usually do, but so far have not resorted to thinking-up unusual queries to post!. It's obvious that I'm feeling a bit cynical tonight, so I'll finish this scotch and water, and go to bed! :)
Cheers, Dave.

Now I notice - that I'm not allowed to use the name of a tool thats used for digging! LOL!!

Benjamin Marks
05-13-2009, 09:48
Roger: I think you are doing what you do best here, which is to stimulate good discussion. However, I think there would be a lot less traffic here (and a lesser sense of community) if folks took away as an answer to your question "I should be doing rather than talking." That's what a forum like this is for, by gum. The Nachwey's of the world are not lurking here, waiting to see, with bated breath, what we say on RFF; they are out there making photographs. I would also venture to guess that unlike you, most of us are holding down day jobs and indulging photography (or writing about photography) as a hobby. As mabelsound said: chained to a desk or in an office.

Today I posted a question about the practical possibilities for photo-stitching software vs. using a panoramic camera. I asked because my brother is getting married in a month and I have some ideas about photographing his wedding (an event I look forward to with great anticipation -- great gal, by the way). BUT - I work 60 hours a week, I have a wife trying to get tenure at an American college and we have small children who are a blast to be with. What does it add up to? Well: a rich and busy life, but vis photography: Not enough time to order a Horizon 202 or Widelux and run some test rolls. [I was going to write: "So cut a brother some slack . . ." but I thought it sounded too defensive . . . so there it is]

Best,

Ben Marks

mabelsound
05-13-2009, 10:39
Ben, that's well put. Roger, trying stuff out is a cinch for you--photography is your career, you're going to be doing it anyway! Most of us here don't manage to make a living at it, and are forced to channel our desire to shoot into some lively discussion...

kxl
05-13-2009, 10:46
For inexpensive items, you are right in saying that nothing beats doing. However, for me the value in asking BEFORE TRYING is to get tips from experienced users of the item in question regarding "expected behavior" or pitfalls or any gems that someone else has already learned by experience and is willing to share.

Ultimately, yes I do have to try it out myself, but I always try to gather as much information as I can before I try something myself and make the final decision myself.

A case in point is the oft-asked "what B&W film should I use?" For those who grew up with digital and discovering film for the first time, there is value in researching (and sometimes asking) the question, since trying out EVERYTHING is impractical. From experienced B&W film users, they might get advice like "use Tri-X or HP5 for the wide latitude" or "Avoid TMX as your first B&W film since it is fincky wrt exposure and development." Whether or not they take heed is another matter entirely.

antiquark
05-13-2009, 11:00
Sometimes a roll of film sits in my camera for months :(... if I wanted to run a sequence of film experiments, it could become a multi-year project! It's wayyy faster just to ask someone here.

marke
05-13-2009, 11:12
Good thread, guys.

BTW, I was wondering...are the third party rear lens caps as good as the genuine Leica caps?

Benjamin
05-13-2009, 11:19
Good thread, guys.

BTW, I was wondering...are the third party rear lens caps as good as the genuine Leica caps?

Yeah dude. They are lens caps. Like bottle tops, you know. Dude.

dee
05-13-2009, 11:41
You know , my ASD creates anxiety about obeying rules , because I struggle with just about everything in a fragmented world .
However my anxious questions here , have been met with the reassurance - '' Enjoy what you have '' ... Summitar / Elmar / even a crisp little Fed 50 f3.5 - on Emma the M 8 ...
and my Kievs and '' new '' Contax ...
Which negates this question for me .

dazedgonebye
05-13-2009, 11:43
My shooting/developing time is very limited. If I can narrow something down or even answer a question by asking, I have to go with that.

No need my trying out square wheels when someone else has discovered those lovely round ones.

Pablito
05-13-2009, 11:45
BTW, I was wondering...are the third party rear lens caps as good as the genuine Leica caps?

Welll that would depend on the manufacturer of the third party product, the materials used, to what tolerances it was crafted.... :D:eek::bang:

Seriously, Roger, thanks for having the cojones to tell it like it is.

Now, then I'm traveling to (...fill in the exotic location of your choice...) What's a good film / lens for this location???? :D:eek::bang::confused:

marke
05-13-2009, 11:48
Yeah dude. They are lens caps. Like bottle tops, you know. Dude.

Oh, those are even cheaper! Is Coke better than Pepsi?

Okay, seriously. I understand that there are many times a question could be answered just by trying it yourself. But first of all, this is a forum, isn't it? Doesn't that mean we can benefit from getting various opinions? Personally, I'm not going to even buy a $15 or $20 softie without first getting some opinions. And my recent question in the BBB thread answered a question I had from someone who is actually using them.

Will a Mikey's malt liquor wide-mouth bottle cap fit a Summilux 50/1.4 (pre-asph)? I know, I know...just buy the beer and try it out myself! :p

Pablito
05-13-2009, 11:53
Yes, the answers to a lot of these questions will cost $10-100 if you buy the kit (or film) in question. What's your time worth? .

Or rather, what's your WORK worth?

Bingley
05-13-2009, 13:19
My shooting/developing time is very limited. If I can narrow something down or even answer a question by asking, I have to go with that.

No need my trying out square wheels when someone else has discovered those lovely round ones.

Ditto.

I also believe that asking questions can be a sign of respect for the expertise of other members here, particularly since RFF includes pros and highly talented hobbyist photographers.

I do try to use the search function and look at older threads, though, to see if a question I have has previously been asked and answered. Not wasting the time of others is also a sign of respect.

BillBingham2
05-13-2009, 14:33
How many of us waste time asking questions when a quick, cheap experiment could solve it all?

....... What's your time worth? Or are you afraid of (a) taking pictures and (b) forming your own opinion, without relying on somene else?

Of course there are major expenses ........Then, forum inquiries can be invaluable. But there are a lot of minor purchases where it would be quicker, easier and more informative to try it and see.

R.

I would point to two reasons for me at least.

Having been out of work for well over a year even $10 is a lot of money. Heck, $20 gives my family of 4 dinner at Culvers. As I helped get us into this mess I am doing everything I can to get us out.

Second, with respect to time spent on RFF vs shooting. I use it to relax and learn between working on things. It's a LOT more fun than TV. I spend every second shooting when I can, but it's a lot less than I would like. This is a great place to hang out and share.

B2 (;->

al1966
05-13-2009, 15:06
I have to partly agree with roger, some things you have to try for yourself. Being able to get loaners for expensive items would be good. What works for you may not work for me, as to smallish things like hp5 vs tri x well thats got to be a try for yourself. But its when you buy big items (ones that are expensive for you) that it becomes hard. I bought an oly e510 all the advice I got when I was looking for a lighter dslr was too fanboy based. I bought the lightest (have me its important). then the wife had a small windfall and bought me a ricoh gx100 the e510 has hardly been used since. No amount of words could have told me this. But forums and the like can help avoid the realy bad and point you in the right direction. But ultimately there is no substitute for hands on.
Alex

Roger Hicks
05-13-2009, 20:15
Obviously there are wide variations from person to person in the availability of both time and money, and as Mabelsound pointed out, because photography (and writing about photography) is how I earn my living, it is indeed a great deal easier for me: I can beg the loan of some kit, or scrounge a brick of film, and I have the time to shoot and develop.

But sometimes, reading these threads, and putting my two cents in, I am astonished by the incompatibility of the advice. One person loves Tessars of all kinds; another (me) would only give house-room to either the f/6.3 for general use or to a seriously long f/3.5 for portraiture on LF. In fact, there (maybe) is another thread: disappointments.

Faced with such conflicting advice, whom do you believe? Saying 'look at their pictures' is worthless, because there are three factors at work. First, there's the levelling down of monitors, concealing differences in quality. Second, there's the ability of the photographer. And third, there's the fact that some lenses suit some people and not others.

Tashi delek,

R.

Benjamin Marks
05-14-2009, 01:56
Roger: I wonder if this is not a feature of the Internet: or put another way - free advice is often worth what you pay for it. Then again, as I am sometimes the person giving the advice, maybe I shouldn't be so quick to run it down. Or how about this for a theory: I think that in communities like RFF expertise is a little like the local currency. Folks give their opinions freely because . . .why? social status in the community? A bread-on-the-waters philosophy? Self-conceit that comes from knowing the answer to a question? The pleasure of "hearing" one's own voice? Altruistic desire to help? Misguided urge to spread chestnuts/common knowledge? Desire for distraction from other life tasks? Whatever the motivation, fulfillment of these needs matches nicely with the needs of those looking for information. Conflicting, even contradictory, advice does not surprise me at all -- on the contrary, it suggests a healthy exchange of ideas, no?

Ben Marks

Roger Hicks
05-14-2009, 02:17
Dear Ben,

Exquisitely summarized.

Tashi delek,

R.

rbiemer
05-27-2009, 02:53
Late to the party but...
Some questions are better asked, I think.
A while back I asked about delayed processing and got a few good answers and lots of..."other" posts. I could certainly have just shot the 30 or 40 rolls of film this summer, waited til this fall to process and found out it was no problem. Or found out that I had wasted my time, money, and film by not processing as I went along. Not an experiment/risk I wanted to take.
More recently, I've asked about using a broken I61 lens and putting a single element uncoated lens in place of the optics in it. I have very little personal knowledge about this kind of thing and I know there are people here at RFF who have that knowledge and experience. So I asked. And my experiment will be more effective having asked the questions I did.
I suspect a lot of the questions asked here are as much about community building as information, though.
Rob

JohnTF
05-27-2009, 07:03
Roger, Je suis de Normandie?

Well, sometimes.

Crafting a good question or finding a good subject is perhaps an art in itself, and as you are dealing with a diverse group, it is reasonable to expect some, well, a lot, of diversity.

I poorly crafted some questions, i.e. it was not clear and did not express at all what I thought I was getting at. Thread was about two posts before all involved thankfully gave up, somewhat gracefully letting me off the hook.

It happens, if someone does ask a very silly question or is trolling, it often becomes known quickly. It may be rather like having your fly down, sometimes you have black pants and a white shirt, other times it may take longer to discover the error of your ways.

As to experimentation, I suspect we all have our strengths and weaknesses.

I too like Fred Picker's materials, and they provided me with a starting point for a number of experiments. I shot my share of gray scales, and yes, I have played with the pH of developers, but also found that could become the the mother of all displacement of time for more than I have left on Earth. I figured out available light and push developing when I was 15, only to later discover I had duplicated known (obviously not to me) results.

But that telephone with no dial was hardly the information super highway, and the local library had about No books on photo technology, the few with figure studies had their own type of displacement of time.

I was still the only one in a school of 4000 to shoot Tri X at EI 800 in available light with my blindingly fast 2.8 fixed lens Signet 50.

I am also think of the two guys who discovered by long experimentation the laws of inheritance in the early 20th century, then did the research to find that Mendel had done essentially the same 50 years earlier, now what were their names?

Too bad Darwin also did not read Mendel. Research may lead to a better question. Hugo de Vries was one of them, if memory serves me adequately, --he did become well known for other research.

So, while I understand your occasional frustration, it kind of goes with the territory. You certainly do not want to put down someone with a sincere question who may not be at their zenith yet, (and who besides we few are, ;-)) but you also do not want to perhaps prevent them from discovering everything on their own.

The process varies, and determining the entire intent of the questioner is not easy, even when the relationship and familiarity is far deeper than one on a website.

I have seen you carefully get in to a subject and show the thought behind your reasoned conclusion, and then there are simply times when I am stuck between two positions and trust you, for example, to just know.

Sometimes you are even right. ;-)

Now, will those bottle caps on the back of my lenses prevent get the D&** dust off my M8 sensor?

Regards, John

back alley
05-27-2009, 07:36
if there were no questions there would be no forums.

JohnTF
05-27-2009, 07:40
if there were no questions there would be no forums.


Perhaps it could be as the old story about prison jokes, they circulated so often they numbered them.

One inmate would say to another "14" and the rest could say, "that's a good one" and laugh.

OK, a bit over the edge, that was really 15.

Regards, John

Sparrow
05-27-2009, 07:52
Personally, I much prefer learning from other peoples mistakes, than repeating them myself

Q; Daddy, Daddy can I play with matches?
A; Experiment son; experiment

dave y
05-27-2009, 08:12
Good topic, I always find it strange when someone does ask a question then why is there sometimes 20 answers all saying the same! Surely one answer is enough, why do people feel the need to reply with the same answer that has already been stated.

JohnTF
05-27-2009, 08:18
Inquiry teaching, and learning has its place, and it is part of the process.

I do not regret the development experiments in High School, I guess it kept me away from other evils. ;-) I was pretty naive, but everyone thought I was not taking photos as there was no flash, got some pretty candid shots, and also did not have a decent light meter, there were lots of variables in my experiments. ;-)

But the "Burnt child dreads fire" can be a bit extreme.

Sometimes I do want a quick answer and not a lecture on epistemology?

That said, perhaps my posts are a bit long, figure you guys are deep thinkers and fast readers. ;-)

Regards, John

JohnTF
05-27-2009, 08:21
Good topic, I always find it strange when someone does ask a question then why is there sometimes 20 answers all saying the same! Surely one answer is enough, why do people feel the need to reply with the same answer that has already been stated.

The only stupid question i have is why does my Leica have a big red K stamped on a shutter curtain hmm!

I think I can clean that off for you, just send it along, if I am unsuccessful I may find a replacement.

J

mpve
05-27-2009, 08:55
Agree Roger!

I am working through a lot of fora every day and what strikes me most about RFF is two things:

1) It has the most (and most insane) questions in polls
2) It has millions of questions like: which of these lenses should I buy? Which of these lenses has best quality?

Though I find it, in general, very usefull to have questions like this answered the sheer number of these questions in RFF strike me, every time I logon.

With most of you I am a "gear man". I am buying more and more gear for no rational reason at all. It just feels good. So I understand you all.

But you must also understand that the gear quality is nowadays at such a high level that I can hardly imagine that all of the persons inquiring if the Leica Summarit is better then the Zeiss Biogon may actually see the differences between these two lenses if the results are passed to them without them knowing which picture is made with what lens.

So I second Rogers advice and want to add one to it:
Buy the most expensive gear you want to afford yourself. Make your choice based on the results you can see from that lens on Flickr. You can then at least see how the lens draws. If the lens that draws best in your opinion is actually optically inferior to another lens that must cause no concern as these differences are too small to be visible for all but the most discerning photographer with an immaculate technique from film to photo.

FPjohn
05-27-2009, 09:24
I favour "try it and see". However, when totally clueless, asking a question may save an eternity.

yours
FPJ

Chris101
05-27-2009, 20:26
...
Q; Daddy, Daddy can I play with matches?
A; Experiment son; experimentWas that Mr. Bic speaking to his son in the late 60s?

maddoc
05-27-2009, 21:05
Sometimes asking a question helps getting a starting point to look further into the problem. I am scientist and main part of my work is asking questions and finding answers by experiments. However, before doing experiments it is advisable to first check the literature and have a look if the problem in question haven't already been sufficiently addressed.

Asking a question here or in any other forum often ends in a quite off-topic exchange of personal preferences and sometimes also brand-bashing. Amusing to read but not always very helpful for the original poster...

What I want to know most often are informations about unusual development times / developer before I ruin the film my own... :eek:

Chris101
05-27-2009, 21:14
... Asking a question here or in any other forum often ends in a quite off-topic exchange of personal preferences and sometimes also brand-bashing. ...
Same thing with scientific literature, no?

maddoc
05-27-2009, 21:17
Same thing with scientific literature, no?

Same thing ! :D ... except for the brand-bashing (in my area of research at least)

mfogiel
05-27-2009, 22:19
The lurking activity on RFF is indeed addictive. However, there are many situations, when you have a problem to solve , and are faced with multiple variables at the same time, so here tapping the experience of others can be invaluable, e.g. "I shot a roll of FP4, and my prints suck" - they can suck, because the lens is crappy, because the shutter was too slow, because there was a focus shift or a RF misalignment, because you have exposed incorrectly, developed with the wrong time, or temperature, you did not rinse the film carefully, you did not flatten the negs before scanning, your scanner is not focusing well, or does not have enough resolution, etc, etc...
There is a never ending quest for the perfect "look" of your shots, and this at the least puts together the lens-film-developer combination. One of the best "looks" that I have found, has been on the basis of your advice Roger (many thanks for that), here's a combination of Fomapan 200 @EI 125 in FX39:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3153/2887970072_6b47acf8b7_b.jpg

And here's my latest favourite combination: Tri X @EI 250 in Prescysol EF:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3359/3571810781_a29ee22685_b.jpg

Sparrow
05-28-2009, 00:01
Was that Mr. Bic speaking to his son in the late 60s?

Naa; it was a German sounding name Hindenburg, maybe, or something like that

craygc
05-28-2009, 01:25
I often think the two primary reasons for these types of questions are i) laziness, its just easier to type a question and wait for a flow of responses and ii) many of those asking that type of question would probably be unable to evaluate the results of a comparison in any meaningful way themselves anyways (ie beginners or never really serious types) so they just ask others, knowing that now, they are using "the best".

Additionally, another associated issue with many of the "which is better" questions is that people are assuming there just IS a best one. No one ever asks that question with a criteria against which to evaluate better...

...but, then again, thats just the Internet :bang:

Just continuing to think about this topic and realised that Im probably even guilty of doing this myself in non photographic areas. Whether its about hard drive manufacturers or home theater speaker system and for me, asking that question is (apart from I dont want to buy of of each and try it), I admit, I dont really know what response Im trying to elicit when I ask a "which is better" or "what is best" question - is it drive fail rates, customer service or importance of a feature - Im just hunting for info and to get a feeling about the product in use! For something like a home theater speaker system, Im trying to get a quick education on general opinions. I don't care too much about it - to me its just a sound system for a tv - but I do want to know something before I enter the store and get led around by a sales guy.

Brian Sweeney
05-28-2009, 01:55
I tend to experiment. Sometimes the answers to a question moves the experiment along much more quickly.

My experience with disassembling a Summarit is an example of a question posed on this forum that moved the job along much more quickly. Who would have thought that a cap had to be removed and a screwdriver jammed into the lens to allow the optics module to come out. Somebody did, and I appreciate the information.

Questions as to which camera/lens/film will I like best can be phrased in a meaningful way and answered in a fashion to move the experiment along. Asking to see examples and hear about personal experience allow a partial judgement to be formed. Questions like "Should I switch to Digital?" are sure to bring out the worst in people.

JohnTF
05-28-2009, 14:42
Was that Mr. Bic speaking to his son in the late 60s?

Would have been in French? ;-)

back alley
05-28-2009, 14:58
in the real world, it's called validation or sometimes, getting a second opinion.

do you think it's easy on a photo forum dedicated to rangefinders to state that you prefer zeiss lenses to leica or that having to remove the baseplate of a cmera to change film is a throw back and should have been changed long ago?

i have come to my conclusions on my own and still am challenged by others on them. i sometimes ask what appears to be a silly question to some just to gauge responses and hopefully hear an opinion that is stated in a very different way than i might have thought about it.

and sometimes i just want reassurance that i just didn't spend 900 bucks on a lens that a $300 lens would do the same thing.

hello...human here!

joe

FrozenInTime
05-28-2009, 15:20
How many of us waste time asking questions when a quick, cheap experiment could solve it all?
... the answers to a lot of these questions will cost $10-100

Sometimes the question is too specialized to be expect an answer, so closing the loop yourself with experimentation is the only way.

Before the digital age, the Polaroid back was the quick answer provider.
I've just dug mine out and ran through a pack of expired 2002 Polapan 100 to see how a Lee RF75 graduated ND filter's calibration lines tied into real positions on the film frame with a Hassy SWC.
I also did some test shots the a Leica M and a few lenses, but the feedback will take a few days longer as I've still to develop the film.

I though about asking 'should I buy a RF75 holder and how will it perform with these lenses' before I bought it, but I did not believe there is enough of a user base out there to get a good answer.

Brian Sweeney
05-28-2009, 15:36
> and sometimes i just want reassurance that i just didn't spend 900 bucks on a lens that a
> $300 lens would do the same thing.

I've done that a lot of times. Spent 5x or more the money on a lens that is almost as good as a J-3. But I did a lot of experimenting to get the J-3 to be "that good". The 1953 J-3 that I picked up for $93 is "Amazing!" But it required a substantial rebuild.