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Roger Hicks
04-07-2009, 15:06
"This Leica costs too much" -- Don't buy it.

"This Leica is ugly" -- Don't buy it.

"This Leica doesn't have the features I want" -- Don't buy it.

"I don't need this lens" -- Don't buy it.

Sure, we all get sucked into these stupid threads sometimes. But why do so many people get sucked in so often?

Tashi delek,

Roger

MickH
04-07-2009, 15:11
Shame on you for starting another one! ;)

Dammit, I bit.

__hh
04-07-2009, 15:13
Taken from my computer's dictionary (doesn't mean it's right)... but a good starting place....

forum |ˈfrəm|
noun ( pl. forums )
1 a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged : it will be a forum for consumers to exchange their views on medical research.

Roger,

I guess you must be sick/tired of Leica bashers. However, this is a forum afterall. Sometimes, I do care about what other people think. Without that, we may as well close shop and revert back to customer/technical support.

xayraa33
04-07-2009, 15:14
As long as the Canon 50/f1.5 lens remains affordable, everything else can go to blazes.

Brennotdan
04-07-2009, 15:18
Is this postmodern? Is this post modern? Has rff, begun eating itself? Someone? Pixels sure have a lot of personality these days.

sepiareverb
04-07-2009, 15:20
I hate that White Leica, and the green one too. I ain't gonna buy 'em. So there.

kermaier
04-07-2009, 15:22
As long as the Canon 50/f1.5 lens remains affordable, everything else can go to blazes.

Well, that ship has sailed -- so now what do we do with everything else?

Roger Hicks
04-07-2009, 15:23
Roger,

I guess you must be sick/tired of Leica bashers. However, this is a forum afterall. Sometimes, I do care about what other people think. Without that, we may as well close shop and revert back to customer/technical support.

So make it 'Canon' or 'Nikon'. Unless someone gives a REASON why they don't like something -- other than that they can't afford it or just generally don't like it -- then surely their opinion is of limited interest to anyone other than themselves.

Yes, I care about what others think, if I'm thinking of buying something and want some information from someone who has actually used it or something very similar to it. I may also be looking for moral support if I think that I've wasted my money, and that something I've bought is overrated.

But the endless whingeing, about price above all. grows very wearing. A forum is a great place for the exchange of real information, or even for the exchange of informed opinion. But what is the point in exchanging uninformed opinion?

Tashi delek,

R.

Roger Hicks
04-07-2009, 15:28
Shame on you for starting another one! ;)

Dammit, I bit.

Dear Mick,

Fair comment. But I really am interested. Why do so many of us -- and I do not exclude myself -- waste so much time on such things?

My excuses: my wife's ill and I can't get out more. That, and the fact that an all-but-mindless exchange of terminally lightweight opinions serves as light relief from real work, e.g. on magazine articles. my website, books, etc.

What are others' excuses?

Tashi delek,

R.

pesphoto
04-07-2009, 15:28
why not? Its fun.

FrankS
04-07-2009, 15:32
It beats watching most TV.

sepiareverb
04-07-2009, 15:36
es, I care about what others think, if I'm thinking of buying something and want some information from someone who has actually used it or something very similar to it. I may also be looking for moral support if I think that I've wasted my money, and that something I've bought is overrated.


Just why I open some of those threads. Most annoying when one is after solid information, because it is often there, mixed in among the dollops of horse manure.

telenous
04-07-2009, 15:38
It's a bonding thing, I think. A strange ritual with community value. Most of the people who take part in the bashing own a Leica or three and like the company (or don't dislike it), so they are probably taking the pi$$ with self-sarcastic abundance. The banter is sometimes very funny, it reminds me of a smaller, more communal RFf.


.

Al Patterson
04-07-2009, 15:43
"This Leica costs too much" -- Don't buy it.

"This Leica is ugly" -- Don't buy it.

"This Leica doesn't have the features I want" -- Don't buy it.

"I don't need this lens" -- Don't buy it.

Sure, we all get sucked into these stupid threads sometimes. But why do so many people get sucked in so often?

Tashi delek,

Roger

Since the 5 day work week and the invention of the Internet, too many of us have WAY too much time on our hands?

Add the fact that some others are working less or not at all due to the current world economic situation, I think I'm getting somewhere?

And for the record, I also think the white Pentax K2000 is ugly. Horses for courses I guess.

There may also be certain personality traits of Internet addiction that forces one to think that their opinion is worth something, just because they are on the forum.

(I'm currently between gigs and have an anti-social streak, so the above is mostly autobiographical. Any resemblance to anyone else's life is purely co-incidental).

gb hill
04-07-2009, 16:13
.........because RFF keeps growing!

back alley
04-07-2009, 16:19
even the most curmudgeonly among us have a social nature.

when it comes to most of the topics discussed here, no matter how light weight, WE are the only ones on the planet that might give even a small damn about it.

where else and to whom else are we to talk about this.

the amazing part to me is that it's usually the same old naysayers that continue to mock us when they could head elsewhere and mock some 'heavyweights'. but that might take some real courage.

but it does prove to me that even the naysayers have some need for social connections or they would be doing something else other than being here.

joe

Brian Sweeney
04-07-2009, 16:23
I do. Currently, I have two lenses from distant places on the planet coming here to try to figure out what is wrong with them. They are not expensive lenses, could be replaced at fairly low cost. But I care to find out what is wrong with them.

Obviously, anyone who takes the time to read a thread and attempts to construct some meaningful response, cares.

Roger, Do You Care?

sanmich
04-07-2009, 17:01
I think there is a world between bashing regular production Leica (which is, I think most will agree, an excellent camera system) and bashing some of the special stylings/special editions/and the general pimping of what is otherwise a beauiful tool.
I like the Leica design and function, but why some need to stick to it pink feathers on gold plating is beyond my understanding.
Am I a naysayer:rolleyes::confused:

And to much more important stuff:
Roger, please wish good health to Frances from all of us...

gb hill
04-07-2009, 17:05
even the most curmudgeonly among us have a social nature.

when it comes to most of the topics discussed here, no matter how light weight, WE are the only ones on the planet that might give even a small damn about it.

where else and to whom else are we to talk about this.

the amazing part to me is that it's usually the same old naysayers that continue to mock us when they could head elsewhere and mock some 'heavyweights'. but that might take some real courage.

but it does prove to me that even the naysayers have some need for social connections or they would be doing something else other than being here.

joe
I totaliy agree with you Joe!

NIKON KIU
04-07-2009, 17:05
Roger,
this is a message board, we come here for entertainment!

Kiu

morback
04-07-2009, 17:48
Dear Mick,

But I really am interested. Why do so many of us -- and I do not exclude myself -- waste so much time on such things?


R.

To justify one's existence.
By having an opinion and expressing (enforcing?) it I am making myself invaluable/indispensable to others, therefore to myself.

Now, why does it bother you?

iyi akshamlar.

Merkin
04-07-2009, 17:58
"This Leica costs too much" -- Don't buy it.

"This Leica is ugly" -- Don't buy it.

"This Leica doesn't have the features I want" -- Don't buy it.

"I don't need this lens" -- Don't buy it.

Sure, we all get sucked into these stupid threads sometimes. But why do so many people get sucked in so often?

Tashi delek,

Roger


It isn't nice to talk about the M5 like that! ;)

slm
04-07-2009, 18:08
Taken from above:

This forum has "endless whingeing"
This forum has "all-but-mindless exchange of terminally lightweight opinions"

<< Don't read it ! >>

Sorry, I don't mean to offend, but if you hold it in such low opinion, why visit?

Cheers

Al Patterson
04-07-2009, 18:15
Hi, my name is Al, and I have a CL...

Is there a 12 step program for Leica users? RFF users? Forum users? ...

photogdave
04-07-2009, 18:39
On a simplified level, I agree with what Roger is saying here. I couldn't believe how many negative posts the introduction of the M8 Safari caused! It's a green camera - like it or leave it and move on. I like it myself.
On the other hand there are lots of seemingly mundane topics discussed here that are, I believe, the internet equivalent of small talk with your buddies. Shooting the breeze, passing the time of day and the like.
"What kind of strap do you like?"
"What's your favorite 50mm lens?"
"Diaper bag or Domke?"
Harmless chit-chat that we can choose to enjoy or choose to ignore in favor of more juicy topics. At the end of the day it's always our own choice.

Al Kaplan
04-07-2009, 18:45
Hi, my name is Al, and I have a CL...and three M bodies, an assortment of lenses, and mostly all I use is the 15mm Heliar on a beat-to-crap Bessa L. I just got back from shooting a campaign kick-off party for a city council seat and that was all that I used. I guess that I need a 12 step program for 15mm lens addiction.

gb hill
04-07-2009, 19:24
Hi, my name is Al, and I have a CL...and three M bodies, an assortment of lenses, and mostly all I use is the 15mm Heliar on a beat-to-crap Bessa L. I just got back from shooting a campaign kick-off party for a city council seat and that was all that I used. I guess that I need a 12 step program for 15mm lens addiction.

and don't forget Al, you drag around a toy monkey....:D

emraphoto
04-07-2009, 19:33
roger,

hope your wife feels better soon. we'll send some good mojo her way.

Al Kaplan
04-07-2009, 20:55
gb, I went to a campaign kick-off party for a city council candidate tonight. The toy monkey was with me. The ladies love it and the candidate is a woman. One of the other council seats looks like it'll be won by a woman also, and the favored candidate for mayor knows where the votes are! He's counting on my putting some photos of him with the toy monkey on my blog. Don't make light of toy monkey power! Your wife will have you sleeping on the sofa!

alan davus
04-07-2009, 21:38
I know where Roger is coming from. For example someone starts a thread about "which flash for a M6ttl" and 80% of the respondents jump on to suggest only d**kheads want to use flash with a rangefinder. Or "I've just bought a Fogg bag for $660" and same thing, "what a waste of money." And so on. I think if you can't say anything positive, say nothing. It's a different matter if someone asks, "should I use flash on my Leica?" I'm personally bored to death by negative naysayers and turn off quickly especially anti Leica ones. For goodness sake this is a Rangefinder forum and if it wasn't for Leica keeping the candle burning for the last 30 years there wouldn't be any CV or Zeiss stuff to give us a choice.

dazedgonebye
04-07-2009, 21:42
even the most curmudgeonly among us have a social nature.

when it comes to most of the topics discussed here, no matter how light weight, WE are the only ones on the planet that might give even a small damn about it.

where else and to whom else are we to talk about this.

the amazing part to me is that it's usually the same old naysayers that continue to mock us when they could head elsewhere and mock some 'heavyweights'. but that might take some real courage.

but it does prove to me that even the naysayers have some need for social connections or they would be doing something else other than being here.

joe

If I weren't such a lightweight, I would have said what Joe said.
:D

chippy
04-07-2009, 22:33
So make it 'Canon' or 'Nikon'. Unless someone gives a REASON why they don't like something -- other than that they can't afford it or just generally don't like it -- then surely their opinion is of limited interest to anyone other than themselves.

Yes, I care about what others think, if I'm thinking of buying something and want some information from someone who has actually used it or something very similar to it. I may also be looking for moral support if I think that I've wasted my money, and that something I've bought is overrated.

But the endless whingeing, about price above all. grows very wearing. A forum is a great place for the exchange of real information, or even for the exchange of informed opinion. But what is the point in exchanging uninformed opinion?

Tashi delek,

R.

Many Tashi deleks Roger,

or if you prefer :p *sticking out tounge* (a not yet completely extinct form of Tibetan greeting so they say)

is that your new interest (Tibetan)?

not an attack in way Roger so i hope it doesnt come across that way, but you have thousands of posts here and on other forums so it doesnt surprise me that you tier of the same old question/statements or answers/comments you have seen and taken the time to read literately thousands of times before (10's of thousands?). so i have to wonder why you care?, at least if you apply the same logic that you suggested in the OP re; 'This Leica costs too much, then dont buy it!' ...etc etc, then you can just as easily ignore, or don't read it if you dont like what is written. Because you are an intelligent man and i suspect you know the answers to your own posited questions i cant help thinking that perhaps this topic is intended in part to gather comments or opinions for an article you are writing? just a thought is all, although i suppose you would just say so if that was the case? mostly i think the posts so far exibit a fairly rounded and expected response

i myself look at threads concerning this or that camera make (Leica for example) and read them more particularly if i am to make a purchase or want to test drive it, sometimes even the most basic comments give me some sort of additional information to confirm or check out, but i am free to ignore them and move on, which i often do.

would you prefer that all the posts simply said Leica was good value for money! would that be just as bad or worse?

If you tier of it too much you could perhaps make a club or association for Leica users (no doubt their already are some) where people pay a joining fee or have to supply credentials of ownership of the equipment. does your site have something simular already in place?. Their are a number of camera/photographic associations that involve paid membership that i find post a general positive atmosphere although friverless questions still occur.

but if you think you can turn the tide on whether the majority of people believe cost of Leica is obsurb then you are knocking your head against the proverbial wall :bang: even if limited to only this RFF would be impossible unless it was a forum rule. your not suggesting that are you?

why bother? who cares!

gb hill
04-07-2009, 22:36
gb, I went to a campaign kick-off party for a city council candidate tonight. The toy monkey was with me. The ladies love it and the candidate is a woman. One of the other council seats looks like it'll be won by a woman also, and the favored candidate for mayor knows where the votes are! He's counting on my putting some photos of him with the toy monkey on my blog. Don't make light of toy monkey power! Your wife will have you sleeping on the sofa!

Monkette is cool with me, I'm a regulat reader of your blog & I've seen the photo of that Garcia woman.:) I'd vote for her too if I was in Miami. Hey! get some good photos of that fancy shindig you been invited to Al.;)

tbarker13
04-07-2009, 22:46
It's quite simple. People like to exchange opinions and argue with each other.

Roger, you seem very quick to disregard Leica's critics as people who simply cannot afford to buy the company's products.
I won't deny there is an element of that out there.
But there are a lot of longtime users (myself included) who have invested large amounts of money in Leica gear and who are less than thrilled with some of the things the company has been doing.

Ronald_H
04-07-2009, 23:01
Well, Leicas are a breed apart, rangefinders. Rangefinders (in case no one has noticed) have fallen from grace in the grander scheme of things for the past 5(!) decades.

But, from this breed of rangefinders, Leicas are the originals and the ones that have the best build quality. They also have the best lenses (or so they say). This all adds up into a sort of mysticsm that is hard to fathom for most. Even for me, and I have one + a growing collection of lenses.

When I feel the need to b*tch about Leica it's really not about lack of foresight and/or innovation. There is a market for their 'outdated' cameras and the M8 and S2 are great achievements for a company this small.

BUT, Leica stuff is OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive for what it is. I will never be convinced that someone will NEED the added mysticsm of the Leica brand to make a certain kind of photograph, when brand X will do just as well.

Sure, Leica has introduced their fast wide angles and a 50mm f0.95. I weep in admiration. But how many out there really need them?

aizan
04-07-2009, 23:57
because my nonsense makes more sense than your nonsense.

Leigh Youdale
04-08-2009, 00:03
I agree with Roger to some degree. Sometimes RFF looks like a graffiti wall for photographers where anything can and is displayed, including bias, opinion and some really useful information. But you have to sift through a lot of lightweight stuff to get to it sometimes. But it's the nature of the medium and unless you're going to selectively edit each submission - a clearly impossible task - you just have to put up with it. Eventually you get to recognise the names that are likely to offer something worthwhile and so you don't bother with the other postings.

MickH
04-08-2009, 00:44
Hi, my name is Al, and I have a CL...and three M bodies, an assortment of lenses, and mostly all I use is the 15mm Heliar on a beat-to-crap Bessa L. I just got back from shooting a campaign kick-off party for a city council seat and that was all that I used. I guess that I need a 12 step program for 15mm lens addiction.

Mr Kaplan, I will pm you my address. Send the lens to me for safe-keeping. Going cold-turkey is the best option for you.

As a charitable sort of chap I'll even pick up the shipping cost.

Just say "yes". ;)

Brian Sweeney
04-08-2009, 03:00
I think Roger just wanted to stir up the hornets nest.

No real point to make, just venting?

I doubt there will be a "minimum content filter" added anytime soon.

And why should there be?

This thread would not have made it through one.

wakarimasen
04-08-2009, 03:26
Surely the real reason is that talking about cameras - in any form whatsoever - is the next best thing to actually using them!!!

Sparrow
04-08-2009, 03:27
I think Roger just wanted to stir up the hornets nest.

No real point to make, just venting?

I doubt there will be a "minimum content filter" added anytime soon.

And why should there be?

This thread would not have made it through one.

A lot of emotional content however, both camps have come to believe their own propaganda so there is little reality in these discussions

Keith
04-08-2009, 04:30
I'm not sure what to say ... maybe this will suffice! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

:angel:

helenhill
04-08-2009, 04:40
I'm not sure what to say ... maybe this will suffice! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

:angel:

EXCELLENT ...I think a few people here NEED a Good Tap on the Head :D

Best To You -H

marke
04-08-2009, 04:48
I'm not sure what to say ... maybe this will suffice! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

:angel:


LOL Keith, I remember that skit. I just forwarded it to a few of my friends to get their laughter muscles started early today.

Now, what was it we're all arguing about?????

micromontenegro
04-08-2009, 05:53
As someone here used to say: Pir Leica, ds pollsz ez knikstz, dan tronn eszt pho m

Roger Hicks
04-09-2009, 00:41
It's a bonding thing, I think. A strange ritual with community value. Most of the people who take part in the bashing own a Leica or three and like the company (or don't dislike it), so they are probably taking the pi$$ with self-sarcastic abundance. The banter is sometimes very funny, it reminds me of a smaller, more communal RFf.


.

Yeah, phatic speech; not conveying information, but community (and sometimes status). You have to be right.

Even so, there's enough REAL information we could exchange -- or even thought-out opinions, of which yours in an excellent example -- that I wonder why people get suckered into attacking or defending something they're never going to buy anyway.

I had no intention whatsoever of dismissing opinions on bags or anything else, or of dismissing (or demanding) either positive or negative opinions, as long as there is some reasoning given. What I can't understand is the empty attacks, the bitching, the whining, the affronted 'I could afford it if I wanted it'. Nor do I expect to change the opinion of those who think Leicas are too expensive. All I ask is why they feel the need to say it quite so often, and quite so emphatically, sometimes posting pictures or aution-site links just as an excuse for another rant.

Rather than reply individually to all the kind PM's about Frances's health, she's had something called (in French) pseudopolyarthrite rhizomelique for three years now. It generally lasts 3-5 years and as its name suggests it mimics arthritis, wandering from one place to another: hip, knee, wrist, whatever.

It depresses the immune system, so anything else she gets, she gets worse. Currently she is confined to bed with an appalling 'flu and cough -- one that was bad enough that it has kept the otherwise fit, healthy young man (from whom we originally caught it) out of his lycee for two weeks.

Frances has it; our young friend Aditi has it (our 18-year-old 'adopted daughter' who is staying for a couple of months); I have it. The young man in question is her boyfriend...

Hence we aren't gpoing out much; hence I have too much time on my hands to engage in sometimes pointless discussions. But Aditi and I are now about to start on another chapter of a novel we're working on: about 20% finished so far. Much better therapy than RFF!

Oh, and one other thing. No, Tibet isn't a new interest. It's life-long. The first 'grown-up' book I read was The Ascent of Everest, in the 1950s, and in the 1980s I co-authored a biography of HH Dalai Lama (Great Ocean, Element Books and Penguin) and wrote a propaganda book for the Tibetan Government in Exile (Hidden Tibet, Element Books). I've taken to using 'tashi delek' to remind people, lightly but constantly, of Tibet. A nation of 6 million people, 4000 km west-to-east and 2500 km north-to-south, won't go away.

Tashi delek,

Roger

Brian Sweeney
04-09-2009, 02:40
I hope Frances, you, and your extended family feel better and recover soon. We go through the "compromised immunity system" with Nikki. It stresses everyone out, and magnifies every "normal illness".

Spider67
04-09-2009, 03:21
Why so many naysayers?
Possibly because people don want to be left alone in their anger.
May be because as kids when we used to be angry sometimes somebody would come to us and try to make us feel better......and that does not work that good when you are 37+.
And the there#s the darker side: A woman who was standing in a queue in Bulgaria used her cell phone after the call's end another woman stepped out of the queue and slapped her in the face. That was in a time when cells were a rare and very expensive in Bulgaria.....so that's the power of nay in its worst. Its also frightening to see how many peole who say " I hate people who..." actually act accordingly in actions full of hatred over trifle matters.
I found prices for Leica, CV and Canon RF Cameras and lenses ridiculously high in Austria....so I had to look around and found what I needed on RFF or on the bay using the world wide search. ....but also after some venting.
Best wishes and gute Besserung to Frances

Roger Hicks
04-09-2009, 08:33
Its also frightening to see how many peole who say " I hate people who..." actually act accordingly in actions full of hatred over trifle matters.

To quote Tom Lehrer,

"There are some people who do not love their fellow man, and I HATE people like that."

Thanks to you and to others for the well wishes. Poor Frances has been in bed all day but Aditi and I went for a walk.

Tashi delek,

Roger

willie_901
04-09-2009, 13:51
Well I didn't buy it (them) , I bought something else.

colker
04-09-2009, 14:23
Hi, my name is Al, and I have a CL...

Is there a 12 step program for Leica users? RFF users? Forum users? ...
i know a one step program: Rolleiflex.:D

Chris101
04-09-2009, 20:49
What a strange thread. I did not think there even were alpacas in Tibet.

It sounds as though you all will be over the flu soon! :)

Al Kaplan
04-09-2009, 20:54
Alpacas sure aren't native to Tibet. They'd probably thrive there. Maybe they were introduced as high altitude pack animals a couple of centuries ago?

As for the toy monkey Monkette had a great time at the political party. The candidate, Bonnie Schwartzbaum, and most all the guests wanted to be photographed with her. I'm not sure than an alpaca would have fit in the elevator. There are a few pix of Bonnie holding Monkette in my blog http://thepriceofsilver.blogspot.com Monkette was invited to the party. She's quite well known in local political circles. Two years ago the blog's coverage of the mayoral campaign was getting more hits than the Miami Herald's website. I was writing it from the standpoint that Monkette was runring the mayor's re-election campaign. Monday night we're going to a candidate debate followed by more tongue in cheek coverage in the blog. I think that it's a hoot that I'm six months behind on getting a haircut, wander about town and attend city council and advisory board (I'm on a couple of them) meetings with a toy monkey riding on my shoulder, and include myself in the photos shot with a 15mm lens while everybody fawns over Monkette and wants to get their photo in the blog. This never would have happened if I was using a DSLR. I'm sure of it...Monkette said so!

chippy
04-09-2009, 23:32
Even so, there's enough REAL information we could exchange -- or even thought-out opinions, of which yours in an excellent example -- that I wonder why people get suckered into attacking or defending something they're never going to buy anyway.

I had no intention whatsoever of dismissing opinions on bags or anything else, or of dismissing (or demanding) either positive or negative opinions, as long as there is some reasoning given. What I can't understand is the empty attacks, the bitching, the whining, the affronted 'I could afford it if I wanted it'. Nor do I expect to change the opinion of those who think Leicas are too expensive. All I ask is why they feel the need to say it quite so often, and quite so emphatically, sometimes posting pictures or aution-site links just as an excuse for another rant.

I have no idea if people (the same people?) are often saying leica's are too expensive. i scan the posts and occassionaly something grabs my attention but if its the same dreary topic with no substance i tend to ignore it as background noise, no different to whining, bitching kids (being kids) or just noisy kids enjoying themselves, i simply tune it out.

lol, though the alpacas comment made me look twice--who the hell mentioned alpaca's in Tibet (Duh) :D

i am not sure i follow you on the 'i could afford it if i wanted it' comment, as a negative pointless comment.
coincidently i was in the store yesterday and almost (came extemely close) handed over the money (had the cash in my pocket) for a 1Ds mark III and a couple of lenses, though i nearly went the nikon route at one point, heck because they know me still as a photographer they were willing to loan me the cameras, and i keep which ever one i wanted and return the other--offered me a good price too (about A$1000-$1500 below reg retail to-a tempting sales pitch ) , so that afore mentioned comment, i can, from a certain aspect relate to. i declined their fair offer and are simply thinking it over without having it staring at me, i am just not sure i want it that much-time will tell but i am not completely impressed with the attributes [or lack of] in these digital cameras yet, at least for my needs


Oh, and one other thing. No, Tibet isn't a new interest. It's life-long. The first 'grown-up' book I read was The Ascent of Everest, in the 1950s, and in the 1980s I co-authored a biography of HH Dalai Lama (Great Ocean, Element Books and Penguin) and wrote a propaganda book for the Tibetan Government in Exile (Hidden Tibet, Element Books). I've taken to using 'tashi delek' to remind people, lightly but constantly, of Tibet. A nation of 6 million people, 4000 km west-to-east and 2500 km north-to-south, won't go away.

Tashi delek,

Roger

its interesting the way a first [real] book remains in our memory or influence us. coincidently Everest has been in the news here lately as the worlds highest rubbish dump; some clean-up operations are happening or have again recently taken place, removing bodies, air cylinders etc from memory

Tibet certainly doesnt seem to be disappearing from the news or peoples thoughts. i suppose the Olympics went some way to illuminate the situation there on a global scale, though i understand that the chinese are still have restricting all sorts of access [press etc] including internet to some degree. i remember hearing the Tibetens mentioning that they expected millions of Han chinese to be to be relocated with the idea of eventualy diluting their culture. i'm not sure if that 'plan' was ever implemented. a disappointing situation prevails there to be sure

at any rate i hope your Tenzing Norgay (Francis) regains her good health soon

Tashi delek