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payasam
04-01-2009, 07:13
From review of Zeiss Ikon in Shutterbug:

"Shutter speeds are 1 second to 1/2000 sec + B, sync at 1/125, clockwise for faster, like all Bessas and all Leicas except the M6 TTL and M7."

I'd have been fooled if I didn't know better. Goes to show that writers (I am one) need editors (I am one).

Uwe_Nds
04-01-2009, 08:29
Wasn't it a Montana State Law that said it's illegal to carry guns on a highway except for the purpose of killing a wild animal or a policeman on duty?

Cheers,
Uwe

payasam
04-01-2009, 08:48
Didn't know about that one, Uwe, but there's a book called Eats, Shoots and Leaves. Or else there's no comma in the title, on which all hinges.

Uwe_Nds
04-01-2009, 09:58
Mukul,
:-)
Nice one, too.

Cheers,
Uwe

JohnTF
04-01-2009, 10:04
I used to check the front page box at the Plain Dealer, and between editions, one of the Linotype operators left the "L" out of clock, in "Don't forget to turn your clocks back tonight", and not only did I get to hear "Stop the Presses", -- all the trucks had to be called back, page one was re-plated, and a lot of papers thrown out. Someone had slipped it in after I made the corrections. Fortunately the evidence clearing me in this case was in the first edition's box which was correct.

Folks used to really look for these opportunities, you never wanted to use "pen and is" separated only by a space. ;-)

Regards, John

Roger Hicks
04-01-2009, 15:22
Editors lamentably seldom check facts or even grammar, and lamentably often try to impose their own prejudices.

A good editor is beyond rubies. The other sort...

Then again, I'm not sure what the complaint is. The comma after faster? All I can plead is that I've just driven 300 km in a 1972 Land Rover and had dinner with my wife and daughter with at least my share of 3 bottles of fizz.

Tashi delek,

R.

ferider
04-01-2009, 16:19
It took me a moment, Mukul. Translated to German it actually makes sense ....

Cheers,

Roland.

JohnTF
04-01-2009, 19:31
Roger, it could have been worse, like you could have used like in place of as.

;-)

Al Kaplan
04-01-2009, 20:08
I'm still trying to understand how the Miami Herald editors slipped up on a Sunday cover of their Tropical Life section. Check it out on my blog www.thepriceofsilver.blogspot.com on the January 10, 2009 posting titled "My Birthday Greeting from The Miami Herald". I don't know how else you could possibly pronounce that word...LOL

payasam
04-01-2009, 21:34
This is the complaint, this might have fooled me:

"Shutter speeds are 1 second to 1/2000 sec + B, sync at 1/125 ... like all Bessas and all Leicas except the M6 TTL and M7."

Matter of sentence construction.

dmr
04-01-2009, 22:03
Then again, I'm not sure what the complaint is.

Maybe I'm just dense, but I sure don't get it. I understand exactly what is meant, I think anyway.

kxl
04-01-2009, 22:47
"Shutter speeds are 1 second to 1/2000 sec + B, sync at 1/125, clockwise for faster, like all Bessas and all Leicas except the M6 TTL and M7"

could be interpreted in 2 ways:

1) ALL features (shutter speed, sync and clockwise) are like all Bessas and all Leicas, except the M6 TTL and M7.

OR

2) Only the "clockwise for faster" is like all Bessas and Leicas.


Either the writer didn't know any better or he was just lazy.

Roger Hicks
04-02-2009, 02:06
OK; omit comma after 'clockwise for faster'. But I don't think many people who are interested in Leicas are likely to be fooled -- which is why I wrote it that way, without worrying about a possible misinterpretation -- and I'd suggest that the chance of an editor noticing this are negligible.

And as the old saying goes, "If you never made a mistake, you never made anything."

Cheers,

R.

ClaremontPhoto
04-02-2009, 02:48
Roger Hicks writes much clearer English than 99% of the people on RFF.

I just wish that 'camera reviews', and 'car tests' and the rest, told us how the reviewer found the experience rather than which knob does what.

Keith
04-02-2009, 02:58
OK; omit comma after 'clockwise for faster'. But I don't think many people who are interested in Leicas are likely to be fooled -- which is why I wrote it that way, without worrying about a possible misinterpretation -- and I'd suggest that the chance of an editor noticing this are negligible.

And as the old saying goes, "If you never made a mistake, you never made anything."

Cheers,

R.


Dear Roger,

I think that should be ... 'chance of an editor noticing this is negligable.'

Regards ... Keith. :angel:

JohnTF
04-02-2009, 02:59
I suppose knowing that Leica reversed the direction of the speed dial in M Leicas, to the bane of some, is well enough known to the intended readership to create a clear assumption of intention.

Failing that, in retrospect a period in place of a comma might have served to better simplify several concepts. However the modifying phrase, more obvious to some, refers to what is immediately before it. I also knew the statement did not refer to Bessas of all vintages.

I do not pretend to know the state of mind nor question the knowledge of the author based upon such a slight misinterpretation.

Many seem to have more serious, and humorous transgressions easily come to mind. I suppose I could submit this to Leno's "Monday Nights' Headlines", however only one of his assistants uses M Leicas to my knowledge, and they are evidently yet mulling my last submission.

Commonly, what passes for style and grammar in print or other current media is far inferior to anything I have seen of Roger's.

Having worked around a dozen copy editors working in concert, this slightly unclear intention would have required at least one with a far more than passing knowledge of the subject matter rather than a correction to a style book interpretation. I am going to guess the editors will not issue a correction in upcoming issues.

For news, we were told to write to the level of fifth grade reading.

Perhaps short sentences, lots of spaces, and more paragraphs can be utilized to create a universal "modern" style, albeit a rather boring one.

Perhaps the poke in the ribs was a bit harder than intended in the last post's final sentence, I believe the post without it was sufficient, unless the intention was not to elucidate but rather to offend?

The elucidation was welcome to me.


Regards, John

JohnTF
04-02-2009, 03:04
Seems as if I took too long to post. ;-) I guess the wait for my editor to proof read my copy was to blame. Getting to the point that instant is not fast enough. Hope he caught my mistakes ;-)

Regards, John

mwooten
04-02-2009, 03:05
Well, I reckon that clears everything up.

ClaremontPhoto
04-02-2009, 03:57
Forget the shutter speed dial thing.

Is it really possible to drive 300km in a 25 year old Land Rover and then drink three bottles of champagne?

Dave Wilkinson
04-02-2009, 04:08
Forget the shutter speed dial thing.

Is it really possible to drive 300km in a 25 year old Land Rover and then drink three bottles of champagne?
...don't know Jon, but we are certainly getting some mileage on this thread, through some pedant noticing a f*#%ing comma! :D

Al Kaplan
04-02-2009, 04:18
According to the Miami Herald you spelled f*#%ing wrong!

Dave Wilkinson
04-02-2009, 04:37
According to that Miami Herald you spelled f*#%ing wrong!
morning Al!.....it's old Yorkshire dialect version!

payasam
04-02-2009, 04:39
It's more than a f*#%ing comma, or I'm not [a] f*#%ing pedant.

Al Kaplan
04-02-2009, 05:01
Dave and Mukul, I was referring to an illustration on the first page of the Miami Herald's Tropical Life section published Nov. 9th 2008 about the annual Miami Book Fair. I ran a photo of that part of the page (under the "fair use" provision of copyright law) on my blog, www.thepriceofsilver.blogspot.com on January 10, 2009. Scroll down to a post titled "My Birthday Greeting From The Miami Herald".

squirrel$$$bandit
04-02-2009, 05:08
It's more than a f*#%ing comma, or I'm not f*#%ing pedant.

I believe you mean "I'm not a f&^$ing pedant," Mukul? Or is this some sophisticated avant-garde grammar experiment I'm too dense to comprehend? ;)

ClaremontPhoto
04-02-2009, 05:40
Hang on, how did we get from 'sloppy pudding' to 'f*#%ing pedant'?

John Robertson
04-02-2009, 05:49
I worked in the very early sixties for what at the time were one of the most Po faced publishers in the UK, DC Thomson. during the local student "rag week" some comedian student managed to get a front page advert published in the Dundee Courier. It was for a female maid, apply to -

Miss Keeps,
Cockwell Inn
Tillot
Wilts

England.

I remember the day well, all hell broke loose when the editor spotted the item.
He was going to fire everyone in sight, until it was pointed out to him that if you were completely innocent, you would see nothing wrong, and he HAD read it, as the student intended.:p

back alley
04-02-2009, 07:59
OP, you have to much free time on your hands.

that should be 'too' much time on your hands...;)

JohnTF
04-02-2009, 08:30
According to the Miami Herald you spelled f*#%ing wrong!


That's why I installed the f*#%ing spel czech. Red underlines never seem to show in the post?

J

JohnTF
04-02-2009, 08:43
"Miss Keeps,
Cockwell Inn
Tillot
Wilts"


Meaning depends on where the author's pen is kept? Perhaps they used quills then?

Local paper published an unusual sentence, "Everything Danny Green owns is green, even the ink in his pen is." You can guess where the printer left out the space.

We could blame the Linotype operators in those days.

Regards, John

Thardy
04-02-2009, 08:44
The original post would have made more sense to actually expand on the error in the review.

I see now that the sentence implies that most Leicas and Bessas share shutter speeds up to 1/2000 and sync speeds to 1/125.

Yes, the review should have been proofread better.

payasam
04-02-2009, 08:45
Joe, these things happen. As Mabelsound said, I left out the indefinite article. Besides, the small aperture has only been on RFF three months.

squirrel$$$bandit
04-02-2009, 09:07
This entire thread reminds me of this Onion article (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/27836)...

Roger Hicks
04-02-2009, 09:09
Dear Roger,

I think that should be ... 'chance of an editor noticing this is negligable.'

Regards ... Keith. :angel:

Dear Keith,

Oh, bugger...

I mistyped 'chance' for 'chances'

For John's mock-address, the version I know is,

Miss Lucy Lykes
The Cockwell Inn
Tillet
Herts.

(Note for Americans: 'Hertfordshire' is commonly abbreviated 'Herts')

Normally I read everything over to Frances but last night was late. Now I'm drinking kir royale with her and Aditi.

Proof readers? Aren't they extinct? And besides, I'm less than convinced they'd have spotted it.

Tashi delek,

R.

JohnTF
04-02-2009, 12:11
"Normally I read everything over to Frances but last night was late. Now I'm drinking kir royale with her and Aditi.

Proof readers? Aren't they extinct? And besides, I'm less than convinced they'd have spotted it.

Tashi delek,

R.[/quote]"

Is it a Cremant or the stuff from Reims? I had thought of course it was Perrier. ;-) J

JohnL
04-02-2009, 13:04
Forget the shutter speed dial thing.

Is it really possible to drive 300km in a 25 year old Land Rover and then drink three bottles of champagne?

Not just possible ... necessary! ... but to be fair, he only had "his share"...

Roger Hicks
04-02-2009, 13:20
Is is a Cremont or the stuff from Reims? I had thought of course it was Perrier. ;-) J

Dear John,

The kir royal was made with a Crémant de Loire. Then we had a rosé Bordeaux with the confit de canard (a 2004, possibly a little over the hill, but still good) and finished with a sweet Cava to accompany the raspberries with creme fraiche and grated 99% chocolate.

It's getting on for half past eleven. My darling adopted daughter has just (!) finished talking on the 'phone to her boyfriend -- of whom, astonishingly, I approve -- and Frances and I are off to a bath and to bed; I'll have a beaker of John Jameson's in the bath, as a bathcap (rather than a nightcap).

Life could be a lot worse. Wilde said something like, "My talent, I apply to my work. My genius, I reserve for living." I don't claim genius, but I'm living well at the moment. And sod the commas.

Tashi delek,

R.

JohnTF
04-02-2009, 22:03
Dear John,

The kir royal was made with a Crémant de Loire. Then we had a rosé Bordeaux with the confit de canard (a 2004, possibly a little over the hill, but still good) and finished with a sweet Cava to accompany the raspberries with creme fraiche and grated 99% chocolate.

It's getting on for half past eleven. My darling adopted daughter has just (!) finished talking on the 'phone to her boyfriend -- of whom, astonishingly, I approve -- and Frances and I are off to a bath and to bed; I'll have a beaker of John Jameson's in the bath, as a bathcap (rather than a nightcap).

Life could be a lot worse. Wilde said something like, "My talent, I apply to my work. My genius, I reserve for living." I don't claim genius, but I'm living well at the moment. And sod the commas.

Tashi delek,

R.

Vicariously delicious, it has been about fifteen years since I have had a Cremant, but about a week since I had a 79 d'Yquem with the friend who accompanied me to the Loire. I have gotten to the point of looking at the cellar and thinking "why not", it was Melinda's birthday dinner and we met somewhere around '79.
Had it for about 20 of its 30 years, and am very glad to say it held up better than I have.

We were given a bottle of house Cremant by Jacques de Brie, the evening we spent at a Chambre D'Hote, which is an 11th century castle, the one where Henry II died, and is supposed to haunt. I was told my snoring put him off that night, though Jacques was keen on showing Melinda the dungeon, she managed to decline.

Totally located by accident, which is why I want to come back for some more such accidents.

I did photograph a wedding in the Loire about ten years ago, but had to hurry back to the 9 to 5.

Cremant is now in my spell check, I had not seen a bottle for years, but remember it fondly in taste if not in spelling.

Did you carry the Cava back from Spain, or is it common to your locale? Assuming it had some complexity?

If I make it, I will bring along a jar of commas, '09, must include a comma check in future software?

Regards, John

anglophone1
04-04-2009, 03:43
Vicariously delicious, it has been about fifteen years since I have had a Cremant, but about a week since I had a 79 d'Yquem with the friend who accompanied me to the Loire. I have gotten to the point of looking at the cellar and thinking "why not", it was Melinda's birthday dinner and we met somewhere around '79.
Had it for about 20 of its 30 years, and am very glad to say it held up better than I have.

We were given a bottle of house Cremant by Jacques de Brie, the evening we spent at a Chambre D'Hote, which is an 11th century castle, the one where Henry II died, and is supposed to haunt. I was told my snoring put him off that night, though Jacques was keen on showing Melinda the dungeon, she managed to decline.

Totally located by accident, which is why I want to come back for some more such accidents.

I did photograph a wedding in the Loire about ten years ago, but had to hurry back to the 9 to 5.

Cremant is now in my spell check, I had not seen a bottle for years, but remember it fondly in taste if not in spelling.

Did you carry the Cava back from Spain, or is it common to your locale? Assuming it had some complexity?

If I make it, I will bring along a jar of commas, '09, must include a comma check in future software?

Regards, John

At last this thread is getting interesting , however I expect some f***king pedant will chime in unnecessarily to correct the grape variety........
Cheers!
Clive

JohnTF
04-06-2009, 22:30
Am so rarely accused of "getting interesting", but if I can make some loose plans, I think it is time to pack some lenses and head back to practice some French and drink some wine. ;-)

Regards, John

jky
04-08-2009, 09:51
Folks used to really look for these opportunities, you never wanted to use "pen and is" separated only by a space. ;-)

Regards, John

Ha ha! Reminds me of that Saturday Night Live Jeopardy skit with Will Ferrell (Alex- the host) & Darrel Hammond (as Sean Connery)...

I'm sure these are in youtube... I gotta check these out again!

dmr
04-08-2009, 10:41
Ha ha! Reminds me of that Saturday Night Live Jeopardy skit with Will Ferrell (Alex- the host) & Darrel Hammond (as Sean Connery)...

ROFL! :) :)

Not to hijack your thread, but jeesz, that Celebrity Jeopardy skit really hits home about how they dumb down things for the "celebrity" versions of various shows. :)

The alias of (Burt Reynolds?) somebody, uh "Mr" Ferguson had me laughing until I hurt!

Now one thing I would sure like to see is "Celebrity Survivor", get some of those oh-so-stuck-on-themselves pop stars and party types out there eating bugs! :)

payasam
04-08-2009, 11:11
Glad, dmr, that this is not a second hijacking, that the wine and cheese party can continue.

At least five other members saw what I saw, and one of them was rude: but I alone attracted the ire of the writer and his enraged bodyguard. My opening post was mild and implied nothing, but I seem to have been forced into the role of iconoclast.

"If you never made a mistake, you never made anything" was honest and therefore welcome: but soon enough it was supplanted by "I don't claim genius, but I'm living well at the moment. And sod the commas." Rephrased, "I may write in the wrong way, but what matters is that I make money out of it." Or, only slightly different, "anything that makes money has to be right."

Wealthy Krupp and poor Galileo.

Gumby
04-08-2009, 14:49
I bought one of his books, Perfect Exposure, not long ago and only payed one dollar plus $3.99 S&H... so there might not be too money being made from commas. :eek:

Roger Hicks
04-08-2009, 23:20
Glad, dmr, that this is not a second hijacking, that the wine and cheese party can continue.

At least five other members saw what I saw, and one of them was rude: but I alone attracted the ire of the writer and his enraged bodyguard. My opening post was mild and implied nothing, but I seem to have been forced into the role of iconoclast.

"If you never made a mistake, you never made anything" was honest and therefore welcome: but soon enough it was supplanted by "I don't claim genius, but I'm living well at the moment. And sod the commas." Rephrased, "I may write in the wrong way, but what matters is that I make money out of it." Or, only slightly different, "anything that makes money has to be right."



Dear Mukul,

I fear you misunderstood me grievouly, and 'ire' is altogether too strong a word. A storm in a teacup, perhaps.

The last thing I would claim is that it doesn't matter what you write as long as it makes money, though nnough people have said kind things about my writing that I suspect it is actually quite competent. In any case, I still dispute that any editor would have caught the error, which turns on fact rather than grammar. An editor can correct the latter; he (or she) would require specialist knowledge, which editors rarely possess, to correct the former in a technical piece. Many editors are pretty shaky on grammar too.

Re-read the piece you attack and you'll see that I quoted Wilde about reserving my talent for my art and my genius for living. I have a modest talent for the former -- enough to earn a living, even with the occasional mistake -- but (I flatter myself) I have a bigger talent for the latter, thiugh as I said, I do not claim genius.

I have a wonderful wife (albeit confided to bed with 'flu at the moment, on top of her pseudopolyarthritis, which is slowly getting better); an adorable 'adopted daughter' (Aditi, the daughter of a very old friend, who is currently staying here for a counple of months); a very agreeable house in a beautiful part of the world; we eat and drink well.

I'd rather have all that than literary esteem, though Aditi and I are working on a novel which exploits the viewpoint of two people born on the same day 40 years apart, in 1950 and 1990.

Actually we al have the same 'flu, originating with Aditi's boyfriend, but he's a charming young man so we all forgive him to varying degrees (Aditi most easily). Apologies for any typos, but the 'flu medications are not fun. They're even blurring my vision slightly. At least I assume it's that, as I haven't had a drink since last night, and that rarely blurs my vision anyway.

Tashi delek,

Roger

JohnTF
04-09-2009, 00:27
Glad, dmr, that this is not a second hijacking, that the wine and cheese party can continue.

At least five other members saw what I saw, and one of them was rude: but I alone attracted the ire of the writer and his enraged bodyguard. My opening post was mild and implied nothing, but I seem to have been forced into the role of iconoclast.

"If you never made a mistake, you never made anything" was honest and therefore welcome: but soon enough it was supplanted by "I don't claim genius, but I'm living well at the moment. And sod the commas." Rephrased, "I may write in the wrong way, but what matters is that I make money out of it." Or, only slightly different, "anything that makes money has to be right."

Wealthy Krupp and poor Galileo.



I, for one, do not grant you that interpretation, in that, from the overall context it simply does not follow.

Perhaps it is not your intent to be deliberately unkind with your rephrasing, but to reference the OP, I, for one, did not catch your point in your initially brief post. I was unclear as to your intent and/or confusion.

I understood it after further reading and explanation, but that may have been necessary only because of my having read similar statements at some time. Easy enough for me to miss the error entirely by reading over it.

Perhaps, understandably, not the case for others.

If you were genuinely confused and asking for clarification that is one situation. If you were pointing out a simple error of punctuation, that is another. Perhaps you can simply state which was the case now.


It may very well be within the nature of written communication that it is open to the interpretation of the reader regardless of the intent of the author.

I read Roger's post as saying it is a bit of a tempest in a teapot, and if you need the error validated, so be it, there are other matters at hand. Note this post in the context of what had come before it.

Some intervening posts elucidated, and one was just unnecessarily rude. I congratulate you on being the first person to plainly state that someone was rude. There is often a reaction to such statements. I would like to think of exchanges as being a bit more civil. I do not know the person well enough to gauge his intention, perhaps he (as each of us) is due some benefit of doubt. Perhaps the comment was merely off the cuff.

Some posts may have been intended to lighten the situation, some just some silly thoughts, it happens.

Errors in print, or in other forms of media are, IMO, becoming much more commonplace, and I find myself relying more on spell check, yet still when I read something I posted in haste, I am glad to be able to use the edit function on this forum.

Being a bit old fashioned, I would prefer to see no errors in clarity, grammar, or punctuation, but that said, I know as soon as I point out the errors of others, my own seem to pop up to spite me.

It would perhaps be better if we all somehow understood the spirit of all posts. Easily said, not always easily attained.

I do not intend to inaccurately portray the part of anyone else with this post, any such failure carries my apology.

Regards, John

payasam
04-09-2009, 02:55
JohnTF: "If you were genuinely confused and asking for clarification that is one situation. If you were pointing out a simple error of punctuation, that is another. Perhaps you can simply state which was the case now."

I have nothing to add to my first post, and there is nothing I wish to take away from it. If the readers of Shutterbug can be assumed to have an understanding of Leica and Bessa, surely I can assume such an understanding in the members of a forum dedicated to R/F cameras.

Paul T.
04-09-2009, 03:20
...I have a modest talent for the former -- enough to earn a living, even with the occasional mistake -- but (I flatter myself) I have a bigger talent for the latter, thiugh as I said, I do not claim genius.

I have a wonderful wife ...a very agreeable house in a beautiful part of the world; we eat and drink well.

I'd rather have all that than literary esteem...
Roger

Oh lord, get over yourself.

When caught out in a (tiny) error, much better to admit it - as in "ignorance, madam, pure ignorance" - and move on. Don't throw in your house, O-levels or doctorate.

payasam
04-09-2009, 06:44
Thank you, Paul T. You said what I should have said.

Roger Hicks
04-09-2009, 07:29
Oh lord, get over yourself.

When caught out in a (tiny) error, much better to admit it - as in "ignorance, madam, pure ignorance" - and move on. Don't throw in your house, O-levels or doctorate.

Dear Paul (and Mukul),

I admit the error. Cheerfully.

Reconsider the old Wilde quote. It was supposed to be a lighthearted remark. If you don't want to take it that way, OK.

EDIT: Maybe I'm not the one who needs to get over myself.

Cheers,

R.

Dave Wilkinson
04-09-2009, 07:48
Dear Paul (and Mukul),

I admit the error. Cheerfully.

Reconsider the old Wilde quote. It was supposed to be a lighthearted remark. If you don't want to take it that way, OK.

EDIT: Maybe I'm not the one who needs to get over myself.

Cheers,

R. Don't try to back out!...you can have the choice...pistols or sabres - at dawn! :D

Roger Hicks
04-09-2009, 08:01
Don't try to back out!...you can have the choice...pistols or sabres - at dawn! :D

Not fussed about choice of weapon -- I'm reasonably competent with either -- but I'm not at my best at dawn. Noon, maybe?

Tashi delek,

R.

mich8261
04-09-2009, 08:03
if you understand French, you might appreciate this from the code civil and how one extra comma can make such a difference: "nul n'est censé ignorer la loi". Not to be confused with "nul n'est censé, ignorer la loi".

JohnTF
04-09-2009, 12:44
Not fussed about choice of weapon -- I'm reasonably competent with either -- but I'm not at my best at dawn. Noon, maybe?

Tashi delek,

R.

Lay off the Cremant until afterward. ;-) Hardly fair, knowing your background in Civil War history, what kind of research did you do over here?

Could have been the Linotype operator, he is probably still out there trying to cause trouble.