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Roger Hicks
05-13-2008, 00:22
Photographs of more than three thousand women's bottoms, in fact: link below. Here's one for the absolutists: should we support his right to do this? I suspect not.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7397426.stm

EDIT: As my wife said, it gives a whole new meaning to the old Italian sport of pinching bottoms -- and I shall be intrigued to see how many views (as apposed to replies) this thread generates.

Cheers,

Roger

Nikon Bob
05-13-2008, 02:33
I guess if society doesn't condone a certain behavior there is a law somewhere to forbid it. When he gets home the punishment for his behavior might be worse than what criminal law may dish out.

Bob

shimo-kitasnap
05-13-2008, 02:46
on the subject of bottoms, try this one on for size......NYC just south of central park west on 6th ave. after passing a donut store.....

Film dino
05-13-2008, 02:59
Naive question: Do Italians really pinch bottoms?
David

Ronald M
05-13-2008, 03:00
Pinching is ok, but a few snaps is not. I always thought the Italians somewhat off.

Roger Hicks
05-13-2008, 03:09
Naive question: Do Italians really pinch bottoms?
David
Dear David,

Women of my acquaintance assure me that it is a lot less common than it used to be.

It could simply be that these women are now older, and the pinchers have sought younger prey. But I have the impression it is no longer anything like as common as it was.

Cheers,

Roger

bmattock
05-13-2008, 03:10
"Upskirt" photos have generally been held to be a violation of a person's privacy here in the US. While a person has no expectation to the right of privacy when they are in public, the view from underneath is generally not what a member of the general public would see of a person, barring, I suppose, strong winds or ventilation grates (Marilyn Monroe).

Certainly one can see more on a public beach, but there is the question of context. A person on a nude beach would expect to be seen by others in their altogether. A person on a public beach would expect to be seen by others in their bikini or whatever they might happen to be wearing. A woman walking down a city street in a short skirt would have no expectation that a creepy guy is taking photos of her panties from below.

The question gets a bit more blurry when considered in terms of hidden cameras and photographs of body parts, but not taken from angles unseen by the general public. One can certainly object to the nature of a person's desire to take photos only of clothed behinds as people walk down the street, but I am not sure there is any real reason to make such behavior illegal.

I suppose if one might argue that such behavior is illegal, one would have to argue that it is an affront to the morals of society, as opposed to being an illegal invasion of privacy. That's just a guess, though.

In Texas, there is an "Improper Photography" law that does make it a crime to take such photos, and it has been used. While it appears to me that this particular law is generally used to apprehend those who put hidden cameras in locker rooms and bathrooms and such, it has also been used to arrest people who go to public events and take photos of 'womens' butts' and so on - fully clothed butts, as seen by the general public.

There are two issues in play here, I think. One is the right to privacy - which more and more people seem to presume they have - or ought to have - whilst they are in public. The second is the broader and much more general societal laws that deal with affronts to decency, morals, and the public sense of acceptable behavior. The first deals with the woman's (or man's I guess) right not to have others photograph her clothed rear end in public, whilst the second is more concerned with whether or not society should allow sleazy guys to hide cameras in shopping bags and go around taking photos of butts in public.

I am entirely in favor of laws prohibiting 'upskirt' photography, but I do understand laws prohibiting weird photos of clothed butts that are not generally violations of privacy. I just think we must be careful not ban everything in our zeal to control perverts.

pesphoto
05-13-2008, 04:00
arrest me.....http://www.paulshelaskyphotography.com/Photos/PhotoOfWeek/CarButt.jpg

nico
05-13-2008, 04:03
Naive question: Do Italians really pinch bottoms?
David


Yes, I do it almost twice a day. Everyday. Since I was 3 years old ....

Tuolumne
05-13-2008, 06:02
In how many states or countries would this be illegal?

Nice Italian tailoring?

/T

charjohncarter
05-13-2008, 06:07
I think this guy is giving women a bum deal.

bmattock
05-13-2008, 06:08
In how many states or countries would this be illegal?

Nice Italian tailoring?

/T

In the US, this would be less of a state or federal law and more of a 'community standards' law and thus more likely to be controlled at the local level (city, county).

So-called 'morals laws' have always been considered local in the USA. What is perfectly acceptable in one community may be considered offensive or obscene in another.

Classic example - in a northern California city (possibly San Francisco, I forget), a local law prohibiting nudity was written such that it only forbade nudity that was for the purpose of causing arousal. One college student took it to mean that if he had no intent to arouse anyone, he could parade around naked - and he did, the entire four years he was in college. He was originally arrested, I believe, but won his court case. In Peoria, Illinois, he'd have had a net dropped on him - local standards.

I believe the same would be true of your photo above - ok in some areas, not ok in others.

Paul T.
05-13-2008, 06:08
What I found shocking about Roger's post is that he quite plainly, in the first line, informs us we only have to click the link to see 3,000 photos of bottoms.

I clicked the link and there was only a news story, and no photos of bottoms. This quite clearly is misleading advertising and I shall be contacting the relevant authorities.

Yours, disgusted of Tunbridge Wells.

Tuolumne
05-13-2008, 06:13
In the US, this would be less of a state or federal law and more of a 'community standards' law and thus more likely to be controlled at the local level (city, county).

So-called 'morals laws' have always been considered local in the USA. What is perfectly acceptable in one community may be considered offensive or obscene in another.

Classic example - in a northern California city (possibly San Francisco, I forget), a local law prohibiting nudity was written such that it only forbade nudity that was for the purpose of causing arousal. One college student took it to mean that if he had no intent to arouse anyone, he could parade around naked - and he did, the entire four years he was in college. He was originally arrested, I believe, but won his court case. In Peoria, Illinois, he'd have had a net dropped on him - local standards.

I believe the same would be true of your photo above - ok in some areas, not ok in others.

It was in Berkeley, Ca., across the Bay from San Francisco. Berkeley, being the home of UC Berkeley, has quite liberal laws in many respects. They also declare the city to be a "Nuclear Free Zone". In any case, this student was known as "The Naked Guy", and he did go to classes naked. I believe the university or city powers that be finally required him to wear a loin cloth, which he did, and in which he was photographed for the local papers. The case did go to court but I can't remember the specifics of it. Ahhh...a more innocent day and age.

/T

bmattock
05-13-2008, 06:30
It was in Berkeley, Ca., across the Bay from San Francisco. Berkeley, being the home of UC Berkeley, has quite liberal laws in many respects. They also declare the city to be a "Nuclear Free Zone". In any case, this student was known as "The Naked Guy", and he did go to classes naked. I believe the university or city powers that be finally required him to wear a loin cloth, which he did, and in which he was photographed for the local papers. The case did go to court but I can't remember the specifics of it. Ahhh...a more innocent day and age.

/T

On the opposite side of that coin, about the same time that was happening, in Cincinnati, Ohio, a manager of a Marriott hotel was convicted and given a prison sentence for obscenity - his hotel provided 'adult' movies in customer rooms via the local in-room cable TV system if they paid and requested such movies. This is true of almost all hotel chains in the US - but following the same standards of Marriott hotels nationwide got this manager sent to prison.

Local standards...

Ducky
05-13-2008, 06:40
Considering the boob & butts found in most 'street photographer' galleries, I'm surprised anyone cares. This guy is just more honest about his obsession.

NB23
05-13-2008, 08:35
Ah, the politically correct BS.

I like Butts and I was hoping to see 3000+ Pics of all kinds of Butts in action. I will, one day, make my own Butts collection. American fat Butts, mostly, for the fun of it.

NB23
05-13-2008, 08:37
That's an excellent, Ugly, Repellent and funny Butt shot.

Post more!

on the subject of bottoms, try this one on for size......NYC just south of central park west on 6th ave. after passing a donut store.....

bmattock
05-13-2008, 08:39
If billmattock thinks you could get into trouble for that,
then how about these, honestly and seriously?

I think you are misunderstanding my point. It's not the object photographed, per se, in situations such as these. It is the action being taken by the photographer that a given jurisdiction might find to fall within municipal laws.

Upskirts clearly violate privacy laws of the individual who is being photographed. Photos such as yours, most likely not an invasion of anyone's privacy, could still be considered a violation of public standards - not for the photos themselves, but for the behavior of the photographer. Does that make sense?

Imagine that a person has freedom of speech. They stand on the street corner and preach. No crime.

Now imagine a person who follows a random individual around, muttering loudly to themselves, but going wherever that person goes (in public). Freedom of speech? Yes, probably, but still a breach of the peace and he's likely to be stopped if not arrested. Not for what he says but for what he is doing while saying it.

Not sure what your game is today, but I'm describing things as clearly as I can.

bmattock
05-13-2008, 08:58
("Upskirting" aside, that's clearly outrageous.)

I'm not playing any game Bill, and I understand what you're saying.
But if my pics or that of Tuolumne could be considered a "violation of public standards", then American standards are beyond my understanding.

NOT THE PIC. The action needed to take it. If no one saw you do it, no violation. If you were in public and people noted you wandering around with a camera and a zoom lens, crouching down to take crotch shot after crotch shot, no doubt some would be upset. Whether or not you'd be violating local standards of behavior would be up to the laws of that locality. Not the picture - the actions you take to get the picture.

bmattock
05-13-2008, 09:12
Ha, so that's American standards, "do what you want but don't get caught doing it.":D:D:D

I hate to defend every small-minded, blue-nosed American community. Suffice to say that each has their own community standards, and they expect to have autonomy in setting standards for public behavior - whether or not a cosmopolitan person might approve of such behavior.

Consider that the same person would be violating such a hypothetical law even if there was no film in the camera - for that matter, even if there was no camera. Perhaps things are different in other countries - the entire country has a 'culture' and what is acceptable behavior in Paris is acceptable as well in Lisle.

ali_baba
05-13-2008, 09:17
arrest me.....http://www.paulshelaskyphotography.com/Photos/PhotoOfWeek/CarButt.jpg
hahahahahhahahahah

NB23
05-13-2008, 09:29
http://www.angelfire.com/ne2/nenadbojic/nenadbojic/NenadBojicWeb-BikeAss.jpg

lewis44
05-13-2008, 09:37
Roger,
I set aside the whole afternoon to look at the 3000 photo and then give a subjective evaluation. Now I feel used and also, have too much time on my hands

DWeston
05-13-2008, 09:42
As said above by others, it isn't the subject matter per se, although I will comment on his real target intentions later, but his method and what his obvious intentions are. No one is suggesting that someone who like bums can't stand off a ways and shoot with a telephoto lens. I doubt the authorities would have done anything to the photographer if that was his MO. It must have been noticed by the subjects that his behavior was too obvious and the shooter was found out. I think anyone might tend to notice after a while that these shots were violating their privacy and possibly more. Also I can not say for sure, but obviously using such a technique, the shooters intentions were for more intimate shots of anatomy ultimately. As a father of two late teen girls, I would say that I would have reacted more assertively then just calling the authorities, if I spotted such behavior. This shooter needs some help in finding another subject to shoot......

As a photographer , I do not want to limit anyones shooting,. but this goes well beyong good taste, and if he really wants to shoot bums, then there are plenty of legal alternatives for his fetish.

Also, re : NB23 shot above on the bike, I find no real problem with type of image, as the girl aslso has to assume some risk for her wardrobe selection and this was obviously taken at a discreet distance and plainly visible....but this I would also guess is not what the photographer was doing from the original description....

Tuolumne
05-13-2008, 09:44
http://www.angelfire.com/ne2/nenadbojic/nenadbojic/NenadBojicWeb-BikeAss.jpg

I always did want to grow up to be a bicycle seat. :o

/T

Roger Hicks
05-13-2008, 10:05
Roger,
I set aside the whole afternoon to look at the 3000 photo and then give a subjective evaluation. Now I feel used and also, have too much time on my hands

Dear Randy,

All I will say in my defence is that I speculated in the original post about how many views the thread would get...

Cheers,

R.

oftheherd
05-13-2008, 10:39
Ha, so that's American standards, "do what you want but don't get caught doing it.":D:D:D

Bill is correct about each community being able to set its own standards as long as they don't violate the County, State, or National laws allowed by constitution.

However, I think you will still find some States/localities legislating the implied or intended use by the individual, for him/her self. That is, for their own pruient (sp) reasons.

And before you pass to strick a judgement, remember, if it works for that community, and not for you, best just stay away. Different strokes for different folks.

rpsawin
05-13-2008, 11:39
Frankly, I don't think this has much to do with photography. This guy is indulging in really perverted behavior and that to me is the point. If this type of behavior was universally banned I would not feel threatened at all.

Best,

Bob

SolaresLarrave
05-13-2008, 11:46
The girl on bike shot is mildly humorous to me. Kind of cute too... And makes me think of the famous HCB shot of the man jumping over a puddle in Paris. Did he fall on his face? If the fall had been photographed, would it make me smile like the photo of the girl?

Now that I think about it... would she smile if she saw it? :confused:

BTW, Bill, I think you would have been a good lawyer.

ClaremontPhoto
05-13-2008, 12:10
Roger:


It looks as if you'll make 1000 thread views within 12 hours, but only a little over 40 posts.

amateriat
05-13-2008, 13:36
I think this thread is becoming rather asinine...;)


- Barrett

BillP
05-13-2008, 14:02
I think this thread is becoming rather asinine...;)


- Barrett

Cheeky!

Just as we were getting to the bottom of things.

Actually, I think Roger started this thread as a bet with Frances. Picture the scene in a certain farmhouse in Aquitaine...

"Roger, I dare you to use "bottoms" in a thread title on RFF"

"I'll take that dare."

:rolleyes:

Regards,

Bill

John Robertson
05-13-2008, 14:19
on the subject of bottoms, try this one on for size......NYC just south of central park west on 6th ave. after passing a donut store.....

In my home city Dundee, you would be spoilt for choice, for this tyoe of shot.
We seem to have a surfeit of these, usually found in pairs, and in jogging bottoms. I doubt if this Italian would collect these!!!
:eek:

Tom A
05-13-2008, 14:19
The Italian bottom pinching - A friend of ours from Australia was travelling through Italy. She did admit to being fed up with having her bottom pawed and pinched and one day , on a tram, she got so fed up that she grabbed the guy's hand and promtly broke one of his fingers! He fainted and our friend looked down at him and shrugged and got off the tram! She was a blonde and well built as well as a surfer. Goes to tell you, beware whose bottom you intend to pinch!

bmattock
05-13-2008, 15:18
The best story I ever heard about bottom-pinching was a (probably apocryphal) story of the woman visiting Paris, who complained to the local gendarme about some man who had just pinched her bottom. He shrugged in that Gallic way and told her "Madam, you will be sorrier the day no one wants to pinch it."

JasonG
05-14-2008, 04:38
Yours, disgusted of Tunbridge Wells.

What!? You're in Tunbridge Wells? We really must meet for coffee and photographs one day. ;)

Tra

Jason

Paul T.
05-14-2008, 04:40
What!? You're in Tunbridge Wells? We really must meet for coffee and photographs one day. ;)

Tra

Jason
Whoops, sorry, only in Tunbridge Wells when I'm disgusted, rest of the time in London.

JasonG
05-14-2008, 04:44
Whoops, sorry, only in Tunbridge Wells when I'm disgusted, rest of the time in London.

Heh,

I live in Tunbridge Wells but I normally find I am in London when I am disgusted!

Tra

Jason

harry01562
05-16-2008, 14:16
http://www.angelfire.com/ne2/nenadbojic/nenadbojic/NenadBojicWeb-BikeAss.jpg

That one is absolutely a hoot.... thanks, you made my day.

Harry

swoop
06-10-2008, 12:04
What that guy was doing was obviously wrong. He was following these women around with a concealed camera.

And my contribution.
http://www.kmnyc.com/images/19.jpg

I was driving around Phoenix with a friend snapping happily, and he told me to take a picture of something interesting, like girls.

Pherdinand
06-10-2008, 12:47
Erik-
so what if it's a dude, my girl also thinks i have a nice ass. :)

Pherdinand
06-10-2008, 12:50
ps:i have a beard too.

Wahoo
06-10-2008, 13:11
The Goths in Whitby recently - note the carrier bag, far left.


http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/Cliff_Edge/foursome1.jpg

NB23
06-10-2008, 13:27
http://www.angelfire.com/ne2/nenadbojic/M8/Web-L1000642.jpg

Sparrow
06-10-2008, 13:38
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/eriksmerik/dude.jpg
Its a dude. he had a beard....

that's possibly a teensy bit gay Erik :D:D

MickH
06-10-2008, 13:48
Ned, my guess is that the character in the red frock is a bloke too.

Wouter
06-10-2008, 14:04
Looking at bottoms is a national sport and daily activity in Brazil - men look at women's bottoms and women at men's - and both seem to like it.

Never bothered me nor anyone I know here. We're talking about looking, touching is an altogether other chapter, as might be taking pictures. It wouldn't be wise to take pics of bottoms with jealous boy- or girlfriends around ...

swoop
06-10-2008, 14:24
yeah, but do you wear your GFs jeans? :D

I wore my ex's jeans once. They were stretchy and fit pretty well. But there was a very obvious bulge.

MickH
06-10-2008, 15:20
Like an old hotel, no ballroom.

..............Jings!

polaski
06-11-2008, 06:49
Some of the greatest stuff comes from Italy. Several years ago, Rome police arrested an elderly gentleman who was gathering up coins from the Trevi Fountain. He used a flat-bladed shovel and a bucket with drain holes. It turned out that he had been doing this for almost two decades, and no one noticed.

M. Valdemar
06-11-2008, 07:31
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/3746/asszc5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

NB23
06-11-2008, 07:39
Ned, my guess is that the character in the red frock is a bloke too.

No, but I see what you see :-)

Sparrow
06-11-2008, 07:45
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2194/1948404865_0c0d04448b.jpg

link (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2194/1948404865_0c0d04448b.jpg)

Gabriel M.A.
06-11-2008, 08:29
Photographs of more than three thousand women's bottoms, in fact: link below. Here's one for the absolutists: should we support his right to do this? I suspect not.

I think this is where Voltaire would surely say that while he disagrees with "photographs of more than three thousand women's bottoms", he'd surely fight for his right to do it.

There are many things that annoy us, or simply offend our senses, but they're not necessarily in need of legal punishment.

For example: who loves that crying baby right next to you in that intercontinental flight? Or at the restaurant. Should the baby be arrested? The parents?

David Goldfarb
06-11-2008, 16:17
Bottoms aren't just for pervs. Check out the new dormitory at the University of Hawai'i as photographed by Akemi Hiatt for the Honolulu Advertiser--

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080611/NEWS07/806110402&referrer=FRONTPAGECAROUSEL

My wife grew up in Honolulu and we visit there regularly, so I read the local paper online occasionally.

In case they change the image, here's a direct link to the photo--

http://cmsimg.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=M1&Date=20080611&Category=NEWS07&ArtNo=806110402&Ref=AR&Profile=1012&MaxW=550&MaxH=650&Q=90&title=0

M. Valdemar
06-12-2008, 03:34
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/9299/tubswc0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Travelbug
06-12-2008, 03:51
If one goes very close with a long lens he should use a condom ... play safe guys :D

Roger Hicks
06-27-2008, 03:39
Hmmmm....

Talk about thread drift (or possibly thread wobble...)!

Not a holiday: research for a new web site and a significant update on www.mctie.com with more illustrations (soon to be all-free -- don't pay for anything!). Over 3000 miles in under 400 hours on the BMW.

Cheers,

Roger

Roger Hicks
06-27-2008, 04:36
Dear Richard,

Well, enjoyable work, anyway.

Though with 3045 miles in 16 days, actually, my bum is a bit sore!

Cheers

(and thanks for the welcome back)

Roger

Ade-oh
06-27-2008, 05:12
For a well known celebrity's view of BMWs, watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaB40TLQE8M

oscroft
07-03-2008, 06:06
This is the only bottom photo I have...