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tbarker13
02-29-2008, 10:00
This may be posted elsewhere, but thought I'd post this email from Leica.



Dear LEICA M8 customers,

thank you very much for your positive reactions to our new M8 Upgrade Service we had introduced to you in our Newsletter four weeks ago. At the time, we had announced further information which is now following as promised.

Due to numerous suggestions you made we have revised the concept. Nothing has changed concerning the options – the scratch-proof sapphire glass cover for the LCD monitor and the noise-reduced shutter. We have just simplified the process for you. What’s new is:
http://webmail.timbarker.com/index.cgi/login/tim%40timbarker.com.authcustom/89B602FA41B36418AA47D1D1F400D6E3/1204301485?folder=INBOX&form=fetch&pos=0&mimeid=1.4Subjects

http://webmail.timbarker.com/index.cgi/login/tim%40timbarker.com.authcustom/89B602FA41B36418AA47D1D1F400D6E3/1204301485?folder=INBOX&form=fetch&pos=0&mimeid=1.5Upgrading of separate options (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/)
http://webmail.timbarker.com/index.cgi/login/tim%40timbarker.com.authcustom/89B602FA41B36418AA47D1D1F400D6E3/1204301485?folder=INBOX&form=fetch&pos=0&mimeid=1.5Upgrades will commence as of August 2008 (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/)
http://webmail.timbarker.com/index.cgi/login/tim%40timbarker.com.authcustom/89B602FA41B36418AA47D1D1F400D6E3/1204301485?folder=INBOX&form=fetch&pos=0&mimeid=1.5Upgrades in authorized LEICA M8 Service Centers (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/)
http://webmail.timbarker.com/index.cgi/login/tim%40timbarker.com.authcustom/89B602FA41B36418AA47D1D1F400D6E3/1204301485?folder=INBOX&form=fetch&pos=0&mimeid=1.4Upgrading of separate options

It was planned to offer both options in one package, i.e. the sapphire glass cover together with the shutter. Now these options will also be available as separate upgrades. The three upgrade-options now available will cost:

- ex 1120,- EUR for both the shutter and the sapphire glass cover
- ex 750,- EUR for the sapphire glass cover only
- ex 800,- EUR for the shutter only

The stated prices include VAT and are valid ex Solms. Regional differences to these tariffs are possible. The camera’s warranty will be extended by another year after an upgrade.
http://webmail.timbarker.com/index.cgi/login/tim%40timbarker.com.authcustom/89B602FA41B36418AA47D1D1F400D6E3/1204301485?folder=INBOX&form=fetch&pos=0&mimeid=1.4Upgrades will commence as of August 2008

Also new is that you can commission the upgrades either through your Leica dealer or directly through the Leica Customer Service as of August 2008,
Tel.: +49-(0)6442-208 - 165 or - 189
E-Mail: [email protected]
Important: Neither will an additional registration on the Leica Camera AG Homepage be necessary nor the acquisition of certificates – the order will be handled just like any other service commission. The payment will only be due before your camera is sent back to you.
http://webmail.timbarker.com/index.cgi/login/tim%40timbarker.com.authcustom/89B602FA41B36418AA47D1D1F400D6E3/1204301485?folder=INBOX&form=fetch&pos=0&mimeid=1.4Upgrades in authorized LEICA M8 Service Centers

As planned, fitting the sapphire glass cover and the shutter will presumably commence as of August 2008 in Germany, and it will also be possible (this is new) in all other authorized LEICA M8 Service Centers in the USA, Japan, Hong Kong, and Korea. Please observe that sending the camera to a Service Center is carried out at your own expense. Within the EU, you may call upon our Quick or Express Service for the upgrades.

We will inform you in due time in another Newsletter when the Upgrade Service is actually started.

Should you have any questions before that, please feel free to turn to your dealer or our LEICA M8 support. http://webmail.timbarker.com/index.cgi/login/tim%40timbarker.com.authcustom/89B602FA41B36418AA47D1D1F400D6E3/1204301485?folder=INBOX&form=fetch&pos=0&mimeid=1.5You will also find all new information concerning the M8 Upgrade Service here. (http://webmail.timbarker.com/index.cgi?timestamp=1204307799&md5=YvXipj%2B3ULZDEM65BqULJA%3D%3D&redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fen.leica-camera.com%2Fservice%2Fservice_and_repair%2Fm8upgr ade%3Fmid%3D335)
http://webmail.timbarker.com/index.cgi/login/tim%40timbarker.com.authcustom/89B602FA41B36418AA47D1D1F400D6E3/1204301485?folder=INBOX&form=fetch&pos=0&mimeid=1.4Yours Sincerely,
The Leica internet team

M. Valdemar
02-29-2008, 10:04
$1000+ for a new piece of glass over the LCD.

Preposterous.

cmogi10
02-29-2008, 10:28
$1000+ for a new piece of glass over the LCD.

Preposterous.


then no one should buy it and the jokes on them, right?

M. Valdemar
02-29-2008, 10:41
Well, I think it sends a negative message to owners of the camera. That they're being played for saps.

How about something simple like a $300 two years additional extended warranty for M8 owners? That's something useful that they could easily sell.

RF-Addict
02-29-2008, 10:57
This upgrade disaster is getting worse and worse.Leica really must think that their customers will swallow just about anything they put in front of them. Honestly, Leica deserves to go under. This is NO way to treat your clients who have just spent $5,000 on an already overprized piece of old technology.

Andrew Sowerby
02-29-2008, 11:01
I also think they're smart to unbundle the upgrades. If they do offer an upgraded sensor in the future, I'm sure people would be more likely to get it if it's not combined with a new LCD cover or whatever.

Gid
02-29-2008, 11:09
Sitemistic / Valdemar

You don't own the camera, so the upgrade policy or lack of it should be of no concern to you. When you've laid down some hard earned cash for one then you can have an opinion worth listening to ;) I look forward to the Canon 5D replacement announcement when I can p*ss on your bonfire.

The upgrade programme is making more sense now. They just need to clarify what new M8s will look like and cost after August.

Richard Marks
02-29-2008, 11:37
Has anyone tried the Giottos glass screen cover? According to my dealer its about 30 (UK) and is apparently very good. They are awaiting a delivery.

Im certainly not tempted by any of these upgrades.

Richard

usayit
02-29-2008, 11:43
I think it was smart to unbundle the glass and shutter into seperate options. It just makes sense... as it does with options in vehicles. From what the watch fanatics tell me, the sapphire glass is EXPENSIVE material and VERY scratch resistant. So I'm not surprised of the cost of the glass BUT I personally would not really care much. I for one was NOT going to pay for the upgrade "package" but now that the shutter is a seperate option I just might consider it at a later time. I would have to hear it in person prior to my decision.

usayit
02-29-2008, 11:44
Has anyone tried the Giottos glass screen cover? According to my dealer its about 30 (UK) and is apparently very good. They are awaiting a delivery.

Im certainly not tempted by any of these upgrades.

Richard


I like mine.... has the quality that matches the M8 (no jokes please). I purchased mine with the camera and the shop was nice enough to install it prior to handing it over.

pizzahut88
02-29-2008, 11:49
750 Euro (or USD1,100) for a sapphire screen.
For the same money I could get a nice diamond ring for my wife.

It's not a matter of how much for the screen,
but rather it's the comparison.

Mind you I didn't care if the M8 had such other problems,
I turned a blind eye and bought one, but this, this is going too far.

No, the upgrade is not mandatory.
But it's not pretty.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2151/2300026871_6a23bc6589_o.jpg

Gid
02-29-2008, 12:06
Heh. That's pretty much what you do to every thread. :)

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Gid
02-29-2008, 12:07
http://www.uclan.ac.uk/psychology/bully/darwin/baboon%20square.jpg

Where's the 5D :D :D :D

usayit
02-29-2008, 12:09
It's not a matter of how much for the screen,
but rather it's the comparison.


And you are right.. but exactly what is your point? There are many people (my wife included) that would rather spend $1200 on jewelry at Tiffany instead. To her, my camera collection is worth nothing except the fact that it keeps me happy. My coworker could see that $1200 as a down payment on a new Rolex. What exactly is your point...

For some watch lovers, a sapphire crystal is a must... From the "demonstrations" I've seen, I would NEED a sapphire crystal if I spent some cash on a nice watch and use it everyday (I dont' wear jewelry at all). I've also been told that a complete overhaul of a Rolex with the installation of a sapphire crystal will start at around $400 and upwards. Thats not inexpensive either.

I will agree that Leica made the wrong assumption that a scratch proofing the LCD screen was such a big deal for their M8 users. For now.. I'm happy with the protector I have on the camera right now... at a fraction the cost.

nobbylon
02-29-2008, 12:15
I'm not anti digital, far from it. If the m8 had the reliability of nikon and canon digital gear then I would probably be more inclined to dive into the m8 ocean. What I really can't accept though is this marketing ploy by leica for owners to keep their cameras at the cutting edge of technology by paying vast sums of cash on top of what they've already paid!. For the price they're selling m8's for, I would like to believe I was buying the best anyway. To my mind this is NOT a sorted camera but instead a factory test program funded by those of us who buy into it. I really can't believe leica when it comes to digital. I'm sticking with my film M's and a scanner until leica stop taking the [email protected]@@

pizzahut88
02-29-2008, 12:18
And you are right.. but exactly what is your point? There are many people (my wife included) that would rather spend $1200 on jewelry at Tiffany instead. To her, my camera collection is worth nothing except the fact that it keeps me happy. My coworker could see that $1200 as a down payment on a new Rolex. What exactly is your point...



I concede my point may not be valid for others.
Diversity of thought is beneficial in this small world.

But for my last birthday, my wife secretly took my Leica out to a store,
ordered a nice case for it, & got me a Zeiss M 28.
No, she did not pick the lens I want nor needed.
I now have four 28mm lenses.
But it's the motive.

My point is, I ought to do something nice for my wife.
Especially before I throw some money down on a screen upgrade.
Look, I could get her a diamond ring.

Didier
02-29-2008, 12:21
Leica is really getting weird. They want more money for a LCD glass than the most expensive CV M-mount lens (Nokton 35/1.2) costs... that's just ridiculous... but enough retired dentists around to order it, I guess...
Didier

pizzahut88
02-29-2008, 12:27
Leica is really getting weird. They want more money for a LCD glass than the most expensive CV M-mount lens (Nokton 35/1.2) costs... that's just ridiculous... but enough retired dentists around to order it, I guess...
Didier

Now I am certain a Nokton 35/1.2 will be of more use.
And dentists, retired or not, are brighter than that save those suffering from dementia.

:D

pizzahut88
02-29-2008, 12:32
This may be posted elsewhere, but thought I'd post this email from Leica.



Dear LEICA M8 customers,




No wonder they call us dear.
I would like to say, please don't call me 'dear'.

usayit
02-29-2008, 12:41
I concede my point may not be valid for others.
Diversity of thought is beneficial in this small world.


Hehehe lol.. I just leaned over to my co-worker (watch fanatic) and asked

"Would you spend $1200 USD on a sapphire crystal upgrade of my camera (showing him my M8 to remind him the size of the LCD)?"

He said... Hell YAH!!! He wishes his Canon had that option. He wouldn't have purchased the Breitling (spelling? no idea .. not familiar with watches) if it did not have it. In fact, he looked perplexed at the notion of spending more money to get a quieter shutter...

hehe lol So yah.. different people.. different tastes.


Oh yeh.. I spent some money at Tiffany's for my wife this past Valentines day... after all... she didn't make a single comment when I came home from work with a Leica M8.




Perhaps Leica thought that the market they were selling the M8 into was the same population that buys Rolex and Breitlings etc..

CK Dexter Haven
02-29-2008, 12:49
If i ever had the slightest bit of interest in acquiring a Leica digital, it is gone now with this information.

Prices are absurd. Even though i COULD pay them, i'd feel like an idiot for doing so.

Alm3000
02-29-2008, 13:11
Just a note on the Sapphire Crystal.. They are not completely scatch proof. Im in the jewelry manufacture business and know that for a fact. High end watch makers us them in their watches becuase they are easily polished. For a watch with a stailess steel, gold, or plat bezel, it's a simple task to polish out any blemishes cause you can polish the whole case, but on a camera, i don't think it would be so simple. And cost wise who knows as well. I bring this up because some people realy don't baby their cameras and they become easily dinged, but it could be as simple as rubbing it up against your lens when putting back in the bag.. It's not THAT easily scratch but capable non the less.

jack palmer
02-29-2008, 13:28
I've had my Rolex Submariner for over 20 years and wear it everyday. I don't work a desk job either. Cabinet/Furniture maker. Cutting, jointing, planing all types of wood., and seldom ever take it off while working. Well about 5 years ago I actually broke the saphire crystal. Sent it back to Rolex for a full CLA for $500.00 They not only replaced the Saphire crystal, they replaced the bezel cleaned and lubed it and polished the case and band. It looked brand new when I got it back.,although I did notice a very tiny spot on the face that looked like it might be oil. Sent it back and they replaced the face. Now why is the Leica charging $1000.00 for the scratch proof crysrtal? Considering what my watch goes through, 5 years now and no scratches on the crystal.

whitecat
02-29-2008, 13:35
I think it's just too much money. What will the next upgrade cost?

usayit
02-29-2008, 13:40
Sent it back to Rolex for a full CLA for $500.00 They not only replaced the Saphire crystal, they replaced the bezel cleaned and lubed it and polished the case and band. ....
....
Now why is the Leica charging $1000.00 for the scratch proof crysrtal? Considering what my watch goes through, 5 years now and no scratches on the crystal.

It doesn't sound all too bad considering that the LCD on the back of the M8 is more than twice the size of the Rolex crystal.

Tuolumne
02-29-2008, 13:42
Is this chimping?

http://www.uclan.ac.uk/psychology/bully/darwin/baboon%20square.jpg

jack palmer
02-29-2008, 13:50
It doesn't sound all too bad considering that the LCD on the back of the M8 is more than twice the size of the Rolex crystal.

I think a more accurate comparison would be if Leica replaced the crystal gave it a an CLA ,replaced the top plate and repainted it.

nobbylon
02-29-2008, 14:09
Try this for a comparison, the last time I had my sub serviced was 2/4/2001. I doubt very much that an M8 will go 7 yrs between cla's! I will confess to still having the same saphire crystal it came with 22 years ago though! Used 24hrs a day for the last 22yrs!

jack palmer
02-29-2008, 15:00
The matter with people is they're getting tired of taking it up the a** from Leica.

Cranialstrain
02-29-2008, 15:06
I still dont see the issue. You dont want it, you dont buy it. Whats the matter with people? This is an option. I would rather have options than not. Some people want the screen and buys it and some want a quieter shutter and buys that. Quit whining about it like little girls. "AHHHHHHH They are giving me options to upgrade(For some people these are upgrades.). *******s". If I had plans on keeping the M8 for the rest of my life I would have bought the screen. I dont care about the screen so I dont buy it.
Hear hear!

Blimey do some of you guys have nothing better and productive to with your days then browse a forum dedicated to a camera you don't own and so obviously dislike? I agree the prices are steep, but that's Leica; and whilst I love my M cameras I'm no fool - if they start to take the piss any more I'll just go elsewhere.

:rolleyes:

etrigan63
02-29-2008, 15:43
750 Euro (or USD1,100) for a sapphire screen.
For the same money I could get a nice diamond ring for my wife.

It's not a matter of how much for the screen,
but rather it's the comparison.

Mind you I didn't care if the M8 had such other problems,
I turned a blind eye and bought one, but this, this is going too far.

No, the upgrade is not mandatory.
But it's not pretty.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2151/2300026871_6a23bc6589_o.jpg

While diamond is more expensive than sapphire, look at the quantity we are talking about here: 2.25" x 1.75" which translates roughly to 2540 sq mm. A 32mm watch crystal (804 sq mm) costs $28 and that is the cheap stuff from China. Leica wouldn't stoop to that so we have to assume they are buying from somewhere in the EU (probably Schott). Then you have the labor involved in disassembling/reassembling the camera, CLA, and a refreshed warranty.

Just my thoughts on the issue...

jack palmer
02-29-2008, 15:49
I also hear that Leica is supplying the Vasoline whichever upgrade you choose.

Keith
02-29-2008, 16:01
The M8 forums seem to have become a venue for M8 defenders verses Sitemistic!

I know he doesn't have an M8 and apparently feels very strongly about what he perceives as a technically limited overpriced indulgence being produced by a vision challenged company ... a view shared by many others but not so vocally I might add.

However ... his comments are mainly aimed at the camera or Leica in general I've noticed and are usually not of a personal nature. I find some of the stuff aimed in his direction in this thread a little tasteless to be honest and it's not because I'm defending his actions ... he can say what he likes about my choice of gear or what he thinks of the manufacturer and I won't take it personally ... it's an internet forum after all! :rolleyes:

John Noble
02-29-2008, 16:08
For some watch lovers, a sapphire crystal is a must... From the "demonstrations" I've seen, I would NEED a sapphire crystal if I spent some cash on a nice watch and use it everyday (I dont' wear jewelry at all). I've also been told that a complete overhaul of a Rolex with the installation of a sapphire crystal will start at around $400 and upwards. Thats not inexpensive either.


If you feel like overpaying for Rolex "quality", sure.

My fancy "Swiss" Hamilton mechanical wind-up watch has a sapphire crystal. I love it: it's absolutely perfect after almost two years' careless treatment.

The watch cost c. $250.00 with shipping.

There was no extra charge for the crystal.

usayit
02-29-2008, 17:03
If you feel like overpaying for Rolex "quality", sure.
.


Then I must assume you are not Rolex's demographic. I think people pay way too much for BMW and Mercs... My dodge takes me from A to B just as well. So What??? You are making the same mistake in your argument as "pizzahut88".

A is true for me therefore everyone in which claims B is wrong..

Everyone must realize that $$$ is a personal thing and everyone has different ideas on value.

ErikFive is right.... no one is cramming this stuff down your throat. I'm a happy M8 camper... the only thing that ruins the experience is this forum. But for some unknown reason... I keep coming back for more.

usayit
02-29-2008, 17:15
I'm new around here.. but am I missing something? Just checking past threads it dawns on me that Sitemistic spends a lot of time here despite not liking the M8 at all.

I'm starting to realize that I'm banging my head against the resident Oscar the Grouch.

usayit
02-29-2008, 17:17
It will scratch if other hard materials are used... diamonds.. other watches with sapphire glass, other surfaces with "man-made materials that incorporate silicon carbide" (whatever that means...).

usayit
02-29-2008, 17:18
I'm done talking about the sapphire crystal.. I am no expert just working of google which you have access to.

http://www.europastar.com/europastar/watch_tech/watchcrystals.jsp

I'm assuming since you said "school" you know how to read and use the internet.

alan davus
02-29-2008, 17:32
Sitemistic should rename himself Dogmatistic but I'm convinced someone who stirs the pot as much as he does either is just playing the devils advocate or enjoys rubbing people the wrong way. Love Leica or loathe them they kept the rangefinder candle burning all those years when everyone else had given them away and it's probably fair to say without Leica there would have been no rangefinder renaissance and thus no CV or Zeiss.

back alley
02-29-2008, 17:37
you can be a one trick pony for so long and then we bye-bye...you choose.

joe

rover
02-29-2008, 17:38
With 2600 posts you are looking for shorter threads? That would give you less to be miserable about????

trev2401
02-29-2008, 17:44
sigh.. just get on with it guys... sitemistic, if you oh so hate the M8, or enjoy throwing *** on anything related to the M8, fly to germany and throw *** at the managing ppl there... not here.... :(

John Noble
02-29-2008, 17:50
Then I must assume you are not Rolex's demographic.


Well, you'd be making a bad assumption, though I prefer Omega when it comes to mid-market watches. The trouble with most of the Swatch Group (makers of both Omega and Hamilton) and Rolex stuff is that with few exceptions price is no longer related to quality/cost of manufacture: they are both marketing-driven assembly line commodity companies with luxury prices.

Patek, at least, still has a lot of Olde World Craftsmanship behind the price.

You can draw whatever parallels with Leica you like.

Why do I wear a cheap Hammie? My surgically-repaired left wrist won't tolerate a heavy automatic, and there aren't many thin/light wind-ups on the market.


ErikFive is right.... no one is cramming this stuff down your throat. I'm a happy M8 camper... the only thing that ruins the experience is this forum. But for some unknown reason... I keep coming back for more.


More power to you if you feel like you got your money's worth. As far as the M8, I can totally see where the price comes from: low volume production, sagging dollar, high R&D costs, complex product support, etc.

What I can't see is $1,100.00 for a piece of sapphire sheet and an extended warranty.

Nor do I see why a steel Submariner or Seamaster costs at least 3 times what they should.

photogdave
02-29-2008, 18:08
You're not debating if you just keep repeating the same point over and over and over and over...
...in multiple threads no less!

rover
02-29-2008, 18:11
As there is no place for singling out any member as a topic of discussion I am closing this thread for a while to let it cool.

I will reopen it tomorrow for continuation of OT discussion.

etrigan63
03-02-2008, 12:31
Getting back to the original topic, I think the unbundling of the upgrades will make it more attractive to some and falls more in line with the "a la carte" program. Who knows, you may see an M8 a la carte announced at Photokina!

aizan
03-02-2008, 13:05
the point some people are forgetting is that being able to skip the costly sapphire glass cover upgrade makes getting the new shutter much more attractive. this is an excellent decision on leica's part.

03-02-2008, 13:50
Has Leica posted any facts regarding the number of actuations on the original shutter and the new one before service is recommended? It would be interesting to know before purchasing the new one if it is rated higher than the original since Leica are claiming it is a better shutter mechanism.

Mistral
03-02-2008, 15:28
I put 3M clear 0.8mil UV stable tape over my glass on day one. It is not of course optically as good as an unscratched std glass, but I don't use the preview there for anything apart from basic framing reassurance and exp. Time will tell if when I come to remove it, it's all gooey with adhesive, but this protects the glass and does the "trick" for a few cents. No bubbles either.

Tuolumne
03-02-2008, 15:58
My Nikon D200 came with a plastic protective cover over the LCD. I say it's plastic, but who knows, it might be sapphire, diamond or even Kryptonite for all I know. It has no detectable scratches on its surface, and of course the LCD glass beneath it is pristine. It was free. That seems about the right price to pay for something like this. I think people who buy that upgrade are insane. I think Leica is an ass for even offering it. I put it in the same category as the gold M6 the Sultan of Brunei's brother has. Pointless if you can afford; pointless if you can't.

/T

Keith
03-02-2008, 16:23
I would be interested to see how many people would only take the screen upgrade ... at 800 euros not many I would think. I assume you still get the supposed CLA with the screen job and the warranty extension. I can see sense in the shutter upgrade on it's own 'cause it does make a fair 'whack' when it goes off and youre not really losing that much without 1/8000! :)

It will be interesting to see what they try and line us all up for next ... perhaps we're just beta testers after all? :p

shimo-kitasnap
03-02-2008, 17:28
sapphire, comonly used in expensive watch glass, very scratch proof, however also very brittle, dosn't take shock very well. It can also explode into small slivers if subject to extreme differences in pressure. (Not that it matters for a camera) Omega for their NASA flight-certified Speedmaster Profesional uses poly carbonate instead of sapphire for this reason.

I dunno, when I clicked on this thread, people were talking about sapphire......

thomasw_
03-02-2008, 19:27
[sitemistic sarcasm]Well, come on now, isn't a piece of glass and a one year warranty worth a mere 800 euros? Such a deal.[/sitemistic sarcasm]

It has been stated that:>

You're not debating if you just keep repeating the same point over and over and over and over...
...in multiple threads no less!

Which seems logical and valid. And Dave is not alone.
And back alley made the same point using different words:>

back alley Quote:
Originally Posted by sitemistic
usayit, there are others who have expressed the same opinions about the M8 and the issues surrounding it that I have. Some multiple times. Without opinion and conjecture, this forum would be reduced to little but threads of FSU porn.



but they don't do it as a vocation!

every thread is the sos! we get it!


Yawn, I get it now, too. More doom, more gloom and even more sarcasm. All the same, dull as ditchwater. And I don't give a cat's meow about the M8, it is the constant drone in every thread remotely related to the M8 or Leica. Yawn, I get it.

Ascender
03-02-2008, 21:39
My Nikon D200 came with a plastic protective cover over the LCD. I say it's plastic, but who knows, it might be sapphire, diamond or even Kryptonite for all I know. It has no detectable scratches on its surface, and of course the LCD glass beneath it is pristine. It was free. That seems about the right price to pay for something like this. I think people who buy that upgrade are insane. I think Leica is an ass for even offering it. I put it in the same category as the gold M6 the Sultan of Brunei's brother has. Pointless if you can afford; pointless if you can't.

/T

LCD update .... naaaaaaa, gold M6? I want one!!

-charlie

visiondr
03-02-2008, 21:58
Well, speaking as a lowly M4 owner, I'd get the shutter upgrade myself. I find the quiet little "snick" of the M shutter one of its special attributes. An M8 as discrete and quiet as my M4 would get my vote.

BTW, if Leica is serious about the "perpetual upgrade" program, I think the idea is a winner.

03-02-2008, 21:58
I have both cameras, M8's and a 5D and I DO worship the 5D.

You're worshipping a false prophet who is about to be replaced and probably will be two or three more times before you see an M9. I have non of the problems you list with the M8 and after two of my friends who own 5D's saw my M8 images they switched. Put your faith in something that will last not a camera that comes with "soon to be replaced" stamped on it.

visiondr
03-02-2008, 22:03
I would love to see Leica pursue a strategy of "a camera for life" in which they'd create a modular CCD/CMOS sensor and electronics. If such a device were possible, they'd truly have something unique, sellable, and true to the company's philosophy.

Ascender
03-02-2008, 22:10
I'm not anti digital, far from it. If the m8 had the reliability of nikon and canon digital gear then I would probably be more inclined to dive into the m8 ocean. What I really can't accept though is this marketing ploy by leica for owners to keep their cameras at the cutting edge of technology by paying vast sums of cash on top of what they've already paid!. For the price they're selling m8's for, I would like to believe I was buying the best anyway. To my mind this is NOT a sorted camera but instead a factory test program funded by those of us who buy into it. I really can't believe leica when it comes to digital. I'm sticking with my film M's and a scanner until leica stop taking the [email protected]@@


there isn't a single point of what you're saying that can be contested. I hope they get it together over there in Solms.

-charlie

Ascender
03-02-2008, 22:15
I would love to see Leica pursue a strategy of "a camera for life" in which they'd create a modular CCD/CMOS sensor and electronics. If such a device were possible, they'd truly have something unique, sellable, and true to the company's philosophy.


is build a less expensive (but not drastically) M series camera that had a ff sensor and autofocus with a whole new line of lenses to accommodate the AF. They should also have made it retro compatible with existing M lenses with some kind of focus assist, green dot in the VF a-la Nikon Dslr's or something. No one would've been bitching and they would've sold a ton more. The 'camera for life' model is a nice idea but is bound for problems down the road.

-charlie

visiondr
03-02-2008, 22:24
You're right on, Charlie.

I recall Contax had a cool autofocus system that centered around a movable film plane! In that way, current users of Contax/Zeiss lenses could continue to use their current optics, and use either autofocus or manual focus. Leica has said in the past that they've been reluctant to design autofocus SLR optics, for example, because lens helicoid tolerances have to be so much looser to allow a servo motor to actually move the lens. On the movable sensor idea: it might even be possible to design such a sensor that would not only move fore and aft to focus, but also adjust to compensate for camera shake as many other manufacturers have managed. OK, so that's all pie in the sky stuff. Still, if there's a will... I'd buy one.

Ascender
03-02-2008, 22:30
I have both cameras, M8's and a 5D and I DO worship the 5D.

You're worshipping a false prophet who is about to be replaced and probably will be two or three more times before you see an M9. I have non of the problems you list with the M8 and after two of my friends who own 5D's saw my M8 images they switched. Put your faith in something that will last not a camera that comes with "soon to be replaced" stamped on it.


You take me too literally. Of course I don't 'worship' the camera you fool. The only thing I worship is my stunning wife and beautiful children. the term 'worship' was meant to point out just how ridiculous Leica owners get about any other camera that isn't German. Oh and btw, I owned an M8 before you even knew of it's existence and if you expect me or anyone else on this forum to believe you when you say "I have non of the problems you list" then that's just a flat out lie.

As for your friends that switched, how easily fooled/seduced (whatever you choose) they must have been. Whilst I love my M8, I can love it because it isn't my only camera .... by a looooong chalk. It is way too limiting and inconsistent to hold that mantle. Now with film, there was no other camera as far as I was concerned, digital however is a completely different matter which is why I maintain that Leica should've built a whole new system from the ground up that was capable of retro compatibility with existing M lenses.

-charlie

Ascender
03-02-2008, 22:45
You're right on, Charlie.

I recall Contax had a cool autofocus system that centered around a movable film plane! In that way, current users of Contax/Zeiss lenses could continue to use their current optics, and use either autofocus or manual focus. Leica has said in the past that they've been reluctant to design autofocus SLR optics, for example, because lens helicoid tolerances have to be so much looser to allow a servo motor to actually move the lens. On the movable sensor idea: it might even be possible to design such a sensor that would not only move fore and aft to focus, but also adjust to compensate for camera shake as many other manufacturers have managed. OK, so that's all pie in the sky stuff. Still, if there's a will... I'd buy one.

much more of a solid vision than anything else I've heard regarding the future of Leica. We could go on and on about this but it deserves a much longer conversation and I just can't concentrate enough for my tired fingers to keep up with my already aging, scrambled brain. had a conversation with Andreas Kauffman and he put me straight on many questions I had one of which was 'why don't you just buy the Contax G AF patent from Zeiss'? Basically it isn't that straight forward. It's all to do with cameras not having a universal OS a-la computers ie, Mac OS or Windblows fista.

I have the G2 and use it often. I am in love, no, I WORSHIP that camera. I shot my wife on Oscar day with it and ended up with one of the best pictures I've ever taken.

-charlie

jaapv
03-03-2008, 02:27
I have both cameras, M8's and a 5D and I DO worship the 5D. It is every bit as great as the M8 and some. What I don't understand is why M8 owners get so bent out of shape whenever the 5D is mentioned. it's so frikkin childish, it's almost as if like blind lemmings, they just can't accept that it can ever be compared to their beloved, non FF, IR infested, back-focus ridden, extortionately priced, comically white balanced, erratically banded, poor battery performing gem of a most wonderful camera.
I think the 5D will go down in history as a pivotal camera and will receive many more accolades to add to it's already legendary status. It frikkin rules so get over it!!

-charlie

A bit silly to worship a camera imo, but having said that, there are two schools in photography since the Nikon SLR's came out. The masses have embraced the SLR concept, there is a minority (lunatic fringe? :p) that prefers the rangefinder system Never the twain shall meet.... But the silliest thing of all is trying to trumpet the qualities of one's own choice by putting down the choice of somebody else. One is bound to fall flat on one's face, as both the M8 and the 5D (and the new Nikons etc...) are superb tools in their own right with all their own qualities. What do I care who or what rules, I use a camera to take photographs. In the realm of ruling the USA presidential elections are more relevant....

Btw, you are wrong about
a: battery life: 500 shots if you conditioned the battery properly to begin with
b: banding was solved in Januari 2007
c. Whitebalance: as far as AWB is relevant for serious work, it is amongst the best on the market since the latest firmware.

And well, FF and IR, if anybody knows of a solution for that, I'm sure Leica (or failing that Zeiss Ikon) would be happy to hear about it. Laws of nature, you know.

As for focussing, you have a point there. It is true that the traditional Leica rangefinder is stretched to the limit. Fortunately it is fine with all but two lenses. The Summilux 35asph 1.4 it the worst example in case. I have a feeling that lens must just be redesigned, as there are too many out there that are not up to scratch with the M8. The Noctilux is another story, that lens behaves exactly as it used to do on film M's. But the quirks are of course exaggarated on digital That means that here is a case of the user having to adapt to the limits of the design, I fear. It is a sobering thought that focussing accuracy would be far more of an issue on a fullframe camera, with its attendant shallower DOF.

Not that I am much impressed by the corners of the FF on the 5D. But that might be the lenses, or just me.

As for the price, speak for yourself, that depends on three parameters: your personal appreciation of the product, your income and your priorities.

If you prefer the 5D, you won't hear me say a word against it. It is a great camera and the choice of many. But it is not a camera I would buy. My choice.

Gid
03-03-2008, 04:54
I have both cameras, M8's and a 5D and I DO worship the 5D. It is every bit as great as the M8 and some. What I don't understand is why M8 owners get so bent out of shape whenever the 5D is mentioned. it's so frikkin childish, it's almost as if like blind lemmings, they just can't accept that it can ever be compared to their beloved, non FF, IR infested, back-focus ridden, extortionately priced, comically white balanced, erratically banded, poor battery performing gem of a most wonderful camera.
I think the 5D will go down in history as a pivotal camera and will receive many more accolades to add to it's already legendary status. It frikkin rules so get over it!!

-charlie

Please don't take a quote from me out of context. I have no problem with the 5D or any camera from any other manufacturer. What I have a probelm with is, as noted by several others, the constant, repeating negativity and sniping by one sitemistic.

jaapv
03-03-2008, 05:04
Getting back to the original topic, I think the unbundling of the upgrades will make it more attractive to some and falls more in line with the "a la carte" program. Who knows, you may see an M8 a la carte announced at Photokina!

I know for a fact that Leica are seriously considering an M8 a-la-carte, the main consideration being the current pressure on the production line.

myoptic3
03-03-2008, 05:13
I wonder if someone could direct me to the FSU porn threads (just for scientific research, of course. I only read them for the great articles. :=).

proenca
03-05-2008, 07:08
Surface immune to scratches from metal, stone or sand. None of which imply brittleness nor materials "harder" than Sapphire glass. I've literally seen people take keys (metal) to their sapphire crystals with no problem. I would assume that stone (rocks) and sand will also be no problem.

BUT

It doesn't mean it will withstand a hammer ( METAL ) at full force.

This is true and I have a living proof - I bought 12 years ago a Omega watch.

Cost me a fortune.

Use it every day, 365 days a year, as of today.

The watch is solid metal, glass is sapphire.

I bumped the watched into every imaginable surface, scractched against everything, from years of Jet Sking and Scubadiving, to car crashes and troublesome 20 to 30 years ( arent they all ? ;) ) .

The watch has some deep scratches on the metal , which can be clearly seen. Afterall its 12 years of HEAVY use with ONE watch. The saphire glass is immaculate. Not a single scratch, dent, ding, whatsoever. Pristine.

Will I upgrade my M8 to a sapphire glass ? Honestly, no. Im no fanatic about the LCD. I understand why it costs so much and how durable it is. But its not for me. I just use the LCD occasionally, so even if it has a scratch or two ( which after a year of M8 usage doenst ) it really doesnt bugger me. Now the shutter option, that's another issue... I'll be upgrading for sure...

parsec1
03-05-2008, 07:29
Is this chimping?

No arrogant monkeying about.:bang:

parsec1
03-05-2008, 07:33
sigh.. just get on with it guys... sitemistic, if you oh so hate the M8, or enjoy throwing *** on anything related to the M8, fly to germany and throw *** at the managing ppl there... not here.... :(
Hey my Dad did that between 1943 and 1945.( 67 times in Lancasters) and it didn't make any difference to them at all.

jaapv
03-05-2008, 10:53
Well, you guys did win in the end, didn't you ? ;)

TJV
03-05-2008, 12:07
I know for a fact that Leica are seriously considering an M8 a-la-carte, the main consideration being the current pressure on the production line.

At the very least, I hope this is so. I bought one of the first M8's and the problems I had with it, and several replacements, forced me to have to give it up. But it's at the stage now that I'm seriously looking at reacquiring what arguably is now a refined product. Digital is the way of the future and I can't see myself being able to stay with film too much longer in my professional work. Personal work is different, the demands of turnaround aren't the same, but after a month of scanning, spotting and editing for a show, I'm over it. The M8 is the only digi on the market that I like using. It's a rangefinder, afterall, and from my own experince its image quality is exelent.

I emailed Leica so I could get it from the horses mouth if new camera will be shipped to shops with the new shutter and they said no, it never will be, and you'll always have to send it in to a service centre. I know this isn't new news but at least I got it from them myself. I was really bummed out reading the reply as that was the deciding factor. A less noisy shutter is a real issue for me but I, personally, am not prepared to wait for something to be upgraded after paying a small fortune for it in the first place. Turn around time for Leica when sending something from a small island in the south pacific has never proved to be fast.

An a la carte system sounds like it may be an option that'll partly solve this issue for me. Problem is it's not as good as being able to walk into a shop and finding the product on the shelf. For others that are impulse buyers, it's important that the product is sitting in front of them, a real solid object proving its worth, it they are going to spend. (It's like if a bookshop has a great book I've always wanted I will buy it on impulse. If they didn't have it or they have to order it in I'll just buy it off Amazon because it's bound to be either cheaper or quicker to arrive anyway.) How long is a la carte turnaround these days?

At the end of the day, if I decide (again) that digital is really for me then I have one choice to make - to get the M8 or not. My personal opinion is that if I could buy the "upgraded" camera off the self I would but I'm not prepared to play the waiting game with Leica again.

pastafazul
03-08-2008, 04:28
Hi everyone,
I'm new to rangefinderforum and proud owner of an M8. I haven't seen this posted here yet but saw it over on l-camera-forum and thought you'd all might be interested. I apologize if it's old news.
BTW I love my M8 and look forward to using it for as long as it last's!

To: All Photographic Division Represnetatives / Dealers
From: Marketing Department
Date: March 4, 2008
Re: Leica M8 Upgrade Service


Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,

Since our first announcement about the M8 upgrade service, we are now able to offer detailed information on the program. All M8 owners have the option of the following upgrades:

* Sapphire glass cover and the silent shutter
* Sapphire glass cover only
* Silent shutter only
* Personal/Signature engraving on top plate
* Vulcanite leatherette body


M8 upgrade option
Shutter & Sapphire Glass
$1,450

Shutter Only
$1,025

Sapphire Glass Only
$ 950

Personal engraving on top plate
$ 260

Signature engraving on top plate
$ 425

Vulcanite leatherette body
$ 330


The M8 upgrade service:

* Is scheduled to start in late August 2008. An announcement will follow.
* The sapphire glass cover & silent shutter will be done at our facility in Allendale, NJ.
* The engraving and vulcanite leatherette body will be done in Solms, Germany.
* Will be considered as part of a regular repair service.
* Payment will be through dealer or directly via credit card, Visa or Mastercard.
* Customers/Dealers must call Leica Camera Inc. starting August 1st to schedule the upgrades before sending their M8.
* Turn around will depend on volume for the M8 upgrades.
* Will have trained technicians to work only on the M8 upgrades.
* Warranty of the M8 with the upgrade will be extended by another year from the original warranty expiration date.
* Upgraded M8 will be shipped back to customer/dealer via UPS.


It is important for you and your customers that no M8s can be shipped to Leica Camera Inc. until the service department is ready to perform the upgrades in late August 2008. Any M8s received for the upgrades before the start date, will be returned. Cameras received without prior scheduled date may experience longer wait times.

For the personal/signature engraving on the M8 top plate and/or a vulcanite leatherette body, the M8s will have to be sent to Germany. For the signature engraving, the customer must supply a signature using black ink on white paper. Any upgrade service sent to Germany will take a longer turn around time. If you have any questions about the M8 upgrade service, please do not hesitate to contact Leica Camera Inc.

Thank You.

etrigan63
03-08-2008, 05:03
Based on that e-mail you can deduce that the actual cost of the sapphire glass cover is $425 (difference between the shutter+glass vs. glass-only upgrades). The combo upgrade price seems much more attractive now. Wish I had the cash to do it...

kk100
03-08-2008, 19:24
Leica screwed up and they know it. We all hoped they would make a graceful transition to the M digital world and instead they wrote a business school case study on how not to.
But here's the thing. Win, lose, or blunder, they're all we got. I spent the money early on to buy the M8 and was just as furious at the compromises as i was excited about finally putting these great lenses to digital use. The money's been spent and I can't get it back - unless perhaps, I succumb to my fleeting desire to pack some serious heat and go to Germany. Which brings me to this upgrade. Of course i would love an upgrade at a reasonable price but the words "reasonable," and "price" rarely intersect in a discussion about Leica. So given the choice of no upgrade or an expensive one, then I'm happy to at least have the choice. If a cheaper upgrade places a burden on the company's ability to regain financial traction, then what's the point?
They definitely made some grave errors with the M8 but we need this company and because of the wise (or insane) financial and artistic investments we have made, are tethered to their success or failure.

Sorry if this sounds preachy... I'm just frustrated and thinking out loud.

Rayt
03-12-2008, 20:36
What do you think is the useful life of the existing M8 even with imaginary future upgrades included? Ten years? To put a sapphire glass cover on it would be kind of a waste IMHO.