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kl122002
02-27-2008, 21:30
Yeap! My Kiev 4 arrived last night! THe leather case and the body are in great shape. The shutter ribbons are in very good condition!
But when I release the shutter, it sounds loudly in every speed. Is that normal?If not, which part of the shutter mechanism I need to add lubtriant?

Can't wait to shot in this weekend.:D

Teus
02-28-2008, 00:18
I've had a Kiev 4 in my hands yesterday, camera in very good condition. shutter was very noisy too, probably not much you can do about that

Spyderman
02-28-2008, 00:27
Making a Kiev quiet is NOT just a question of more lubricant. It's a very complex mechanism. After many years of neglecting it needs Cleaning, light Lubrication of moving parts and Adjustment. That's why it's called C-L-A.

Loud shutter is usually a result of too much tension of the shutter curtain spring. If you go through older posts in FSU RF section, you'll find many posts by me, Ruben and others about Kiev C-L-A and shutter tension adjustment.

Also, study Kiev survival site if you want to get to know the mechanisms of Kiev.

kl122002
02-28-2008, 01:57
I have studied Kiev Surival Site and read some Japanese websites after I posted this topic. Some of them were suffered from the same problem. Carry out CLA is easy to me as I always fixing my old cameras.
If I do need to adjust the shutter 's tension, how to do it? And, what will happen if I don't not adjust the tension?

I wondered, is there anyone who has tried to change the shutter of Kiev 4 from brass blades to cloth ?And should I prepare the ribbon for changes in the future?(I am frightened by my previous topic...)

Peter_Jones
02-28-2008, 02:50
The brass shutter curtain can be very quiet, after a CLA, de-tensioning will effectively quieten the camera. If the tension is left the same, the noise will be the same and the ribbons may not last as long. Kievs can be very nice cameras with a little time and effort on maintenance, which you will be fine with, judging by your post. I'd stick with the brass shutter personally, no need then to worry about lens caps in sunny conditions :)

Spyderman
02-28-2008, 03:01
If I do need to adjust the shutter 's tension, how to do it?

Look either in KSS or in some older posts here. Difficult to explain without pictures... so here is one that says it all:
http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/IMG_1373a.jpg
linked from http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/replace%20shutter%20ribbons.html

And, what will happen if I don't not adjust the tension?
Loud shutter. Possibly more wear to the sprockets and maybe also ribbons. Bloody fingers from turning the advance knob :D

I wondered, is there anyone who has tried to change the shutter of Kiev 4 from brass blades to cloth
Impossible.

And should I prepare the ribbon for changes in the future
Probably yes, but it's easier than it sounds...


PS: my CLA: remove whole shutter assembly, release tension of shutter spring, soak in naphta and brush with paintbrush to remove all dirt, let dry, spray generously with PFTE spray, let dry, apply synthetic grease to moving parts as necessary (not on slow-speeds clockwork), retension shutter spring.

acheyj
02-28-2008, 03:22
Good advice, I use a very lite oil on the bearings (just a drop on the bearing and shaft) before greasing gears. NO OIL or GREASE on timing clockwork MOST IMPORTANT. First time I CLA I oiled the slow speed escament and the dam thing jammed up on 1/2 & 1/5 speed, mind you I soaked it, thort I was servicing a tractor !!.

ron

kl122002
02-28-2008, 06:24
Thank you very much spyderman. I checked from KSS but wondered why the next photo is a leaf shutter. I also notice that the page 'Adjusting Shutter Speeds' is missing. (http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/shutter%20speed%20adjust.html)

I afraid I can not set the shutter speed correctly.

On the other hand, although I forgot which book / website I 've visited, I still remember that it says a Contax ii can provide 1 sec. exposure with using 'B' and timer. Can Kiev do it also?

Spyderman
02-28-2008, 08:49
I checked from KSS but wondered why the next photo is a leaf shutter. I also notice that the page 'Adjusting Shutter Speeds' is missing.
I afraid I can not set the shutter speed correctly.

I don't have a shutter tester, but my experience tells me that if you tension the shutter just enough to work reliably (i.e. always close fully and lock with the bottom curtain) the speeds will be fine.

And yes, there is incorrect picture... and the referenced page is missing...

it says a Contax ii can provide 1 sec. exposure with using 'B' and timer. Can Kiev do it also?

I don't know. I'll try it... One body stays open for 4 seconds, another doesn't close, and two others Ihave had their self timer removed :D

ruben
02-28-2008, 18:00
Hi Kevin,

distensioning the shutter
Spyderman's picture of distensioning the Kiev is of great importance, and quite unusual.

However, when you do it, you will notice that the angle of insertion of the screwdriver is quite difficult, perhaps the most difficult operation in the Kievs, and if you add the issue of the locker, most of the chances are that at your first tryials you will end with the spring of the drum distensioning to the end.

Don't desperate, nothing wrong has happened, with some tryials you will make it.

Your camera must be cocked beforehand to 1/250 for this as well as for all interventions. This is highly important.

But each time you start re-tension, you must count exactly how many turrns you have applyied, for further corrections.

Now, there are many different ways to check the accuracy of your tensioning in producing the right speeds at the least possible amount of tension. Many, many ways.

The one I use is quite one of the most primitive. I bring a good working SLR I trust, take out the lens and start firing each speed against light, then I compare each speed with my Kiev under surgery.


Stiff grease

With Spyderman's accurate instinct sending you to distension the shutter first of all, we still don't know how stiff is the old grease in your camera. Therefore you must use your common sense to not force anything.

Therefore you will be tensioning against the opposition of this old grease. By now you can accept this unacceptable situation, since you have a new camera and want to make some pictures.

But in the near future you will have to remove all that grease with utmost care of not leaving absolutely and literally nothing of it. Then you will be able to lubricate your camera and recalibrate your shutter for less tension.

Winding with film inside the camera will be more difficult than without. Expect it.

So far by now.
Cheers,
Ruben

kl122002
02-28-2008, 20:08
Good news,
I try B setting with timmer set. Release timmer and it will give approx. 1 sec exposure, like contax ii/ iii . It does on my Kiev 4, but not sure whether with work on yours.

It is pretty strange that as I keep try, the sound is getting smaller...(???)... only lound at 1/25s or lower,( but it has been quiter than before).

I also doulble check the straps from the side under stong light. One of them seems have replaced. ANd the other one still the original. Both of them have very min. wear, i.e. 1 or 2 filaments at the edge. It seems I better get prepared. But now, let me try some shots first.

How arrcuate the Kiev RF it is ! I used to st infinity when objects are far than 20m/ 60ft. But it proves that I was wrong. The'far' object is not far way from me, which about 20m plus a little more only.

I love my new Kiev! It comes with original Contax spool:eek:

Spyderman
02-29-2008, 00:43
It is pretty strange that as I keep try, the sound is getting smaller...(???)... only lound at 1/25s or lower,( but it has been quiter than before).

You probably mean that the slow speeds clockwork makes the loud sound. It's quite possible that by exercise it's getting quieter. At speeds of 1/50 and slower, the upper curtain is delayed by this clockwork. Usually it's a pleasing (for us - Kievaholics) whizz-ing sound ynd you shouldn't fear that something's wrong.

One of them seems have replaced. ANd the other one still the original.
If the ribbon on the take-up side (closer to the advance knob) is kind of dirtier, it just means it's dirtier from grease/oil from the sprockets. It's usual that one ribbon is dirty and the other is clean, since there are no sprockets on the rewind side.


PS: Ruben: the photo is from KSS :)

kl122002
02-29-2008, 01:17
I thought the whizzing sound is lacking of lubtriant. I added some in this afternoon and it is still whizzing... I was worrying until I read your post. So the whzzing sound will also produced in 'B'?

Have you try my method to set 1 sec shutter? It just like to an Easter egg.

Question again :
after several wind and fire, the winding process is getting difficult. I tihnk I need to add some grease to it. How about white lithium grease, would that be ok? (I can not find synthetic grease ) And, which part is the clock work mechanism? (I used to use valve oil for as lubtriant for clock work mechanism in leave shutter, that is ok and work for me.)

rolleistef
02-29-2008, 05:37
What needs to be understood is how a Kiev/contax works.
There're more of less : a gearbox with two gears, just like a car, two clockwork escapements and a big spring inside the lower drum. The clockwork mechanismS are two wheels with a black anchor. it has to work dry.
there are four types of speeds on the kiev :
the 1250-125 range uses no clockwork at all, and both shutters move freely. What varies is the width between them.
50-25th : clockwork n°1 and 1st gear are coming into action, and the exposure is set both by the width between the curtains and the speed of the second curtain.
10th-5th : clockwork number 1 still is working, but the gearbox is now in second notch, slowing the second curtain even more.
2 and B are working with both clockworks and the 2nd gear so it's normal it's wizzing for B too.

You'd better avoid grease since it tends to solidify after a while. To clean the shutter, buy some Zippo lighter fluid (petrol) and clean every parts from old grease. What seems to be the best lubrifiant is PTEF powder. If you've ever used a non-adhesive sauce-pan you know what it is :)
Good luck
stéphane

ps : holy intercompatibility! My kiev had trouble with its shutter, since I had another shutter I was able to swap both shutters. Those ZIkon men were geniuses!

Spyderman
03-01-2008, 08:08
after several wind and fire, the winding process is getting difficult. I tihnk I need to add some grease to it. How about white lithium grease, would that be ok? (I can not find synthetic grease ) And, which part is the clock work mechanism? (I used to use valve oil for as lubtriant for clock work mechanism in leave shutter, that is ok and work for me.)

Didn't you read what I wrote a couple of posts above ? not on slow-speeds clockwork
It is supposed to run dry - free of oil. The important part here is that it must be CLEAN to run correctly and without too much friction.

Please, for the sake of the innocent camera, do NOT add any more grease anywhere in your Kiev.

PS: I wonder how the leaf-shutters work with oil in them. AFAIK leaf shutters are very sensitive to oil and they stick if there is any oil...

kl122002
03-02-2008, 21:21
Yes, leaf shutter, especially the blages, is very sensitive to oil, lighter fluid and even large amount of graphite. HOwever, suitable amount of oil/grease can make it works perfectly, especially the delay mechanism and self-timer system. I never oil the blages.