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View Full Version : USA: What are you going to do with your rebate check?


goo0h
01-24-2008, 16:12
With news the USA gov is going to issue rebate checks to help save the economy, how are YOU going to use that money. Maybe that bran spanking new CV 35 F1.4 everyone has been drooling over?

Tuolumne
01-24-2008, 16:15
Ummm. given the amount it will be, I'd say - buy some new shoe laces.

/T

rogue_designer
01-24-2008, 16:17
invest heavily in China... in the hopes that when they purchase the United States, they'll remember me fondly.

(but seriously, probably part of a new scanner)

MikeL
01-24-2008, 16:25
I'll be using the money to help expedite a large sum of cash from the Nigerian Government to my bank account. I got this email out of the blue. Wahoo!

rover
01-24-2008, 16:28
It will probably go onto the home equity line so the wife can spend it as part of a "project" or into the boy's 429 so he can spend it on a text book some day.

akptc
01-24-2008, 16:30
Definitely buy some Leica stock :)

mwooten
01-24-2008, 16:36
Does it seem strange to anyone else that the USA single person amount is about the same as one of the new CV 35's?

What else do Stephen and Mr. K know? :)

rover
01-24-2008, 16:41
What else do Stephen and Mr. K know?

Not what, who?

cmogi10
01-24-2008, 16:53
Spent some on the Sonnar, will spend the rest on film.

Trius
01-24-2008, 17:26
Please add the following choice:

I'll get back to you once I find out what my wife does with it.

brachal
01-24-2008, 17:26
I'm putting mine in my savings account. Just for spite. :)

Bryce
01-24-2008, 17:39
Nobody has mentioned donating it to the third party of your choice. Amazing!

BillBingham2
01-24-2008, 17:42
I'm kind of confused. They say the money must be spent now to save the economy but the checks come in June. Does anyone really trust President Bush on this one?

B2 (;->

brachal
01-24-2008, 17:44
I'm kind of confused. They say the money must be spent now to save the economy but the checks come in June. Does anyone really trust President Bush on this one?

B2 (;->

I live in New Orleans. I haven't trusted Bush since "Heckuva job, Brownie."

Eric T
01-24-2008, 17:47
I am going to buy euros.
Eric

Al Patterson
01-24-2008, 17:49
I'm kind of confused. They say the money must be spent now to save the economy but the checks come in June. Does anyone really trust President Bush on this one?

B2 (;->

Just to be accurate, the CONGRESS passed this law. All W has to do is sign it.

And besides, by the time the "stimulus" arrives, the recession is usually over. Although I do think the coming trouble will be more like the 1970s than the more recent downturns, so there will be plenty of bumpy road ahead AFTER the check is in the mail...

Finn
01-24-2008, 17:52
Hey if they want to write me a check to generate warm fuzzies during an election year, who am I to stop them?

bcostin
01-24-2008, 18:51
Now I know what to tell my wife when she looks skeptically at that new Canon 40D. "I had to buy it honey. For the good of the country!" :)

We don't really carry much debt so it'll probably go into savings. I'd prefer a tax cut, since stimulus packages like this don't generally do much, but anything that lets me keep more of my income is ok by me.

Thardy
01-24-2008, 19:35
Many folks won't get one. :(

SolaresLarrave
01-24-2008, 19:47
My wife wants me to put it in the house. I want to put it in savings. Either way... it won't go into the economy. In fact, I feel a bit slighted about it. Do the powers that be think the citizens are that stupid and can be "convinced" that everything is honky-dory once there is a check in the mail? :confused:

foto_fool
01-24-2008, 19:49
Oh yes, let's have more tax cuts. (In case it's lost on anybody, I'm being totally facetious - but let's not turn this into an overtly political thread just yet.)

I think rogue_designer said it first, but I'm taking mine and moving it into an overseas China-India growth fund, along with the rest of my retirement and the kids' college money. Thanks for the memories, Wall Street.

Al Kaplan
01-24-2008, 19:52
I'm single. Maybe I'll buy myself wife. I need somebody around here to keep reminding me that I don't need another lens (when that money could be better spent on shoes).

jbf
01-24-2008, 20:43
Hmm... I pay taxes but I dont think I qualify? i dont know... I'll have to talk to my financial advisor.

Doug
01-24-2008, 21:38
As suggested in posts #1 & #8, this would be just right for a new 35/1.4 Nokton and hood. Hmmm! Even if put into savings, that contributes to the economy too, as the savings institution puts that money to work as loans or other investments.

David Murphy
01-24-2008, 21:53
If you make more than 75K you won't get a refund check -- you're considered "rich"

jbf
01-24-2008, 22:00
Anyone have any idea as to what constitutes getting a rebate check?

Obviously if your too 'rich', etc. heh.

rxmd
01-25-2008, 01:15
Er, I'm not from the US and I haven't been following this. Does every citizen get $50 shuffled over from the government's already considerable debt to alleviate his personal debt? Do you have to pay income tax on it?

Not only does this sound quite a bit like "bread and games", it also seems to make no sense at all economically.

Philipp

kully
01-25-2008, 01:46
I'm with Philipp, I don't understand this. How much is the average person likely to get?

And George really said spend it on stuff for yourself and help us beat recession?

rover
01-25-2008, 01:47
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2008-01-24-stimulus_N.htm

rxmd
01-25-2008, 01:59
I see, so you get a tax rebate between $300 for a relatively poor single and $1200 for a moderately affluent married couple, plus extra $300 per child, if you earn less than $75,000 or $150,000 respectively.

Two problems. Firstly people in that bracket are likely to have lots of debt, so it's in reality a reshuffling of debt from private households to the state. Secondly people are likely not only to blow their rebates out of the window, but also to blow them on imported products which means spending government money to further increase the US trade deficit. On the positive side, people get the positive stimulus that their government is caring about them and doing something about the economic crisis. I am not sure how much sense this makes all in all though.

Philipp

rover
01-25-2008, 02:17
I am not sure how much sense this makes all in all though.


In the end, that is what matters least really, if it makes sense to you or me that is.

On a lighter note, we have also applied for rebates from the governments of Germany, Japan, China..... France said no immediately, and if George once again pulls out that nekkid picture of the Queen I am sure the UK will pony up....

whitecat
01-25-2008, 02:45
$300 Bucks? Hey, I can afford the Noctilux I've always wanted now! Thanks Mr. Bush!

Solinar
01-25-2008, 02:47
Two problems. Firstly people in that bracket are likely to have lots of debt, so it's in reality a reshuffling of debt from private households to the state. Secondly people are likely not only to blow their rebates out of the window, but also to blow them on imported products which means spending government money to further increase the US trade deficit......

I am not sure how much sense this makes all in all though.

Philipp

I'll be one of those that reshuffles debt from a private household to the state. In so far as imports are concerned, the only way to avoid that is to spend the money on food or medicine. Third, it's an election year - recessions are not supposed to occur in election year - so a temporary sugar fix is in.

rover
01-25-2008, 02:51
In so far as imports are concerned, the only way to avoid that is to spend the money on food or medicine.

Don't forget beer.

Solinar
01-25-2008, 02:57
I will get enough for a railroad charter event in NM in october, so maybe I'll go stimulate the economy of Chama, NM.

That's a great way to stimulate the economy. Be sure to take lots of photos of the fall foliage while your on the narrow gauge and post them here.

The drive between La Veta and Trinidad is also splendid during October.

Sparrow
01-25-2008, 03:04
In the end, that is what matters least really, if it makes sense to you or me that is.

On a lighter note, we have also applied for rebates from the governments of Germany, Japan, China..... France said no immediately, and if George once again pulls out that nekkid picture of the Queen I am sure the UK will pony up....

Annie Leibovitz tried that……..couldn’t even get the crown off

;)

Solinar
01-25-2008, 03:08
Sitemystic is on to something, folks.

Sparrow
01-25-2008, 03:16
George has a plan; what could possibly go wrong?

I just worry about how much post recessionary planning has been done, he won’t want it to go wrong afterwards
:angel:

navilluspm
01-25-2008, 03:56
A friend told me that the Societe General has some great investors. I think we should all pool our money and have Jerome Kerviel invest it. Just think of the money we could make! :D

dlove5
01-25-2008, 04:52
Hmm, 1 kid in college and the other entering later this year.... Nah - Vacation!!!!! Always a good excuse to actually use some of my camera gear.

Thardy
01-25-2008, 05:24
Yes, more cuts. I'm being totally serious.

raid
01-25-2008, 05:29
Home Improvements.

pesphoto
01-25-2008, 05:47
How much are we supposed to get if we're married?

---just checked....$1200 if taxes filed jointly! I'll take it.

Berliner
01-25-2008, 06:08
The 'idea' is that everyone who receives a refund check spends it/takes on more debt, and that -at least short term- WILL stimulate the economy.

But, the current state of the US economy has much less to do with our national debt, and much more to do with PERSONAL debt, the retracting housing market, raising unemployment, the credit crunch (still just the tip of the iceberg), and the cost of bread, sugar, milk, petroleum, etc., (Inflation). Poor George…He takes the rap on everything.

The President HAS to state that the ‘fundamentals’ of the economy are good. If he says otherwise, the situation spirals farther into panic. It was a very smart thing to do, and should help short-term. Long term—yikes! I am seriously worried, we all should be, and by all accounts it will get worse. As we saw at the beginning of the week, the rest of the world markets are highly correlated to the US market…

That China/India Growth fund sounds sweet! What’s the ticker???

Damaso
01-25-2008, 06:10
Buy some more gear. Mebbe that new CV 35 or a rapidwinder...

grizzz
01-25-2008, 06:22
I'll be gettting nothing. I am not rich. No one on my salary in the Washington DC area would ever consider that $75k is rich. What really irks me is my boss makes well into six figures and his wife works at a day care place a few times a week. I am sure they come in just under the $150k and will get a nice check from the gov't no doubt to buy little accent peices for their pool. I could use the dough towards repairing my basement wall that is caving in casue I can't afford to live in his neighborhood.

Berliner
01-25-2008, 06:22
but most people do not RESIDE in their autos--yet...

Thardy
01-25-2008, 06:31
I'll be gettting nothing. I am not rich. No one on my salary in the Washington DC area would ever consider that $75k is rich. What really irks me is my boss makes well into six figures and his wife works at a day care place a few times a week. I am sure they come in just under the $150k and will get a nice check from the gov't no doubt to buy little accent peices for their pool. I could use the dough towards repairing my basement wall that is caving in casue I can't afford to live in his neighborhood.

Why does the boss get the rebate and you don't?

rover
01-25-2008, 06:34
Married filing jointly with combined income under the max due to wife's part time employement status.

Al Kaplan
01-25-2008, 06:36
Nobody expects to keep a new car more than perhaps three years or so. It's an expendable asset like a TV or computer. Houses are supposed to keep going up.

Housing prices went into an upward spiral when interest rates fell a few years ago. The average person bases what house he can afford on the monthly payment amount, not the actual price of the house. With low interest rates sellers could ask more and buyers were willing to pay more because the monthly payment was their only concern. Variable rate mortgages caused a lot of the problem, with monthly payments suddenly increasing by a significant amount.

My next door neighbor bought at the top of the market a couple of years ago, put a fortune into remodeling inside and out, and now has the fanciest house in the neighborhood. It now has a for sale sign out front but he's not likely to get his down payment and remodelling "investment" back. He'll probably take at least a $50,000 loss if he finds a buyer. More likely the bank will take it back and he'll have to file bankruptcy to get out of the remodelling loans.

"Flipping" only paid off with an investment house. If you lived in it you'd just get stuck buying another house at an inflated price, a zero sum game. It doesn't bother me that my house is down about $50,000 dollars from the peak. I bought it in the fall of 1967 for $13.500 and paid off the mortgage years ago.

Thardy
01-25-2008, 06:38
Why does the boss get the rebate and you don't?

Yeah, I took another look at it. Not really fair. :(

rover
01-25-2008, 06:42
Yeah, I took another look at it. Not really fair. :(

That depends on how much she eats.

uhligfd
01-25-2008, 06:45
I thought Leica users earned too much to qualify for the hand-out.

Was I ever wrong! High value camera apparently does not equal a high income.

How cute! On RFForum we thus all "suffer" for our artsy desires. Great!

Thardy
01-25-2008, 06:46
That depends on how much she eats.

I don't quite follow what you mean. :o

Thardy
01-25-2008, 06:47
I thought Leica users earned too much to qualify for the hand-out.

Was I ever wrong! High value camera apparently does not equal a high income.

How cute! On RFForum we thus all "suffer" for our artsy desires. Great!

Oh, not nice.

Actually it's just us Americans with our devalued houses, stagnant wages, puny dollar, and shrinking stock portfolio. We might have to sell our Leicas for food and fuel oil soon. Hmm, all have have is a Bessa and an FSU lens. I'm screwed.

varjag
01-25-2008, 06:52
Can someone explain this 'housing crisis?' We have lenders who lent money to relatively suspect borrowers, and borrowers who are faced with adjustable rate mortgage increases. No guns were put to either the lender's or the borrower's heads. Both parties were betting the real estate value would continue to increase.

So, some of the irrational exhuberance calms down and there is a correction in the real estate market. These borrowers now have no equity or negative equity in their homes. OK, so this is a problem only if they have to sell (or decide to sell) their home. And the lenders should learn from their risky ways, should they not? If someone makes a poor business decision, should the government be there to bail them out?
As I understand it, it became crisis when these loans to suspect borrowers were selected out, repackaged as bonds and sold to financial institutions (hedge and pension funds) in non-transparent packages. So now if all of the loans quickly devalue, there is a risk of huge chain reaction throughout the financial system. It is in best interest of everyone to at least smooth out devaluation.

Was it a form of fraud? Probably, at least borderline to it. But as they say, "if you owe bank a thousand, it's your problem, if you owe it a million, it is bank's problem".

dazedgonebye
01-25-2008, 06:57
I'm going to use it to pay my taxes.

Thardy
01-25-2008, 06:58
I've heard when you owe a million, you're partners.

Berliner
01-25-2008, 07:13
The other side to 'suspect borrowers' is unscrouplous lenders who actually understood what would happen when that 4.5% rate 'adjusted' to 8.5% ater two years, doubling the monthly payment. Or those 'interest only' loans--usually on jumbo notes--where in a declining market, the value goes down, and the equity quickly goes negative...Dumb consumers (sheep), dodgy lenders...equal blame.

foto_fool
01-25-2008, 07:14
I have partners who are money guys. They say when you borrow a million, the bank owns you. But when you borrow a billion, you own the bank. So what does this mean for all the other countries who have funded the current $trillion national debt? (Which, as has been pointed out, is still historically small as a fraction of GDP.)

And speaking of history: ecoomic advisors to governments have been arguing from time immemorial over whether deficit spending or balanced budgets are better policy. The deficit spenders have consistently won.

wgerrard
01-25-2008, 07:28
Eugene has it right. In the 'old days', when a lending institution gave someone a home loan, they continued to hold that mortgage. Today, they package the debt and sell it as soon as they can. Then that debt gets resold, etc., etc. The value of the debt everyone is now holding rests on the ability of the guy in the house to continue making payments.

I'm not so sure that we can apply the word 'fraud' to adjustable rate mortgages. Most advertising that I recall did tell the prospective buyer that the rate was subject to increase. It might have been in the fine print, and the salesperson might have left it out of the pitch, but if it was in the paperwork, I don't think fraud is the right word.

I'd agree that lenders who knowingly lent to people who were not qualified should take their medicine, except that some of those lenders are so big that their collapse will hurt a lot of uninvolved innocents.

Berliner
01-25-2008, 07:37
It all comes down to corporate greed. I miss the Cold War days...when our greed was kept in check by the imminent threat of nuclear annihilation...

aizan
01-25-2008, 07:45
how much crack can i get for $300? ;)

aizan
01-25-2008, 07:56
oops, did i say crack? i meant treasury bonds.

Al Kaplan
01-25-2008, 11:03
Just endorse the checks over to me. I will dispose of them in an environmentaly safe manner.

Talus
01-25-2008, 11:08
mine is already spent. I'll just go ahead and pay down some credit cards. debt > me

Berliner
01-25-2008, 11:43
Where IS Olsen? I am sure he has something to say...this thread has his name all over it...

anselwannab
01-25-2008, 11:54
Enjoy your welfare checks!

I bought a house in 2006 and got a 30 year loan, after my loan officer looked at me like I was an idiot, and questioned where I got my MBA. The thing that irks me is that I had to bid on houses against people who were getting ballon loans. They could bid higher, and did, causing prices to rise. Now those idiots are going to get some protections like frozen rates or no foreclosures. They keep their lower monthly payments, while I'm stuck with my higher payments. Now these ballon head idiots are trying to price fix houses where they are, which just screws first time home buyers trying to save for a house.

There is a sh!t sandwhich out there and we all have to take a bite. The bozos in Washington and Wall Street are trying to put 'special sauce' on it to make it taste better.

They make it sound like they are trying to protect the little guy, but what they are really trying to do is protect the bankers, who knew what they were doing. I KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING. If these packaged loans have lost say half their value, let people buy back their loans at 60 cents on the dollar. Even if their house value goes down, their loan amount has gone down. Let the bankers take it in the 'depisot slot'.

Not that I've thought about it much or have strong feelings.

Mark

varjag
01-25-2008, 12:20
Bill, with "fraud" I was referring not to the sales side of it but rather the way loans were repacked. Those who did it, smart people in their way, knew what was going to happen in the end, i.e. what Mark have written above. It might be not punishable by letter of law, but it is a fraud scheme according to most existing moral value systems.

Berliner
01-25-2008, 12:29
The little guy has not mattered for quite some time in the US, at least not on an individual basis. However, collectively most US economic activity IS consumer driven (spending). This program is (in theory) designed to ensure US economic viability. So next winter US citizens are not burning their dining room tables in the wood stove to heat the house, or selling silverware to stand in line to buy bread & butter...
-----------
Late last year, the CEO at CitiGroup –world’s largest bank-- ‘resigned’, because Citi stock declined over 50% during his tenure. During the same period 17K jobs were cut worldwide at Citi. 4K additional announced this year. His salary/compensation package including options during his last year was over $40M, so since when have morals played any role in banking/finance??? Corporate greed…at it’s best…

sepiareverb
01-25-2008, 12:44
I'm going to China!

Just kidding. :D

sooner
01-25-2008, 12:46
I agree with Mark, above, the industry knew what it was doing, and lots of people made really bad choices in opting for loans and houses they couldn't afford. But I blame government even more, because they're the ones supposedly exercising some adult supervision to all this. Yeah, right. The checks are meant for everyone, including single adults, but you get more with kids. All this does is add to our already devastating debt burden and help fuel inflation, which is the real concern here. Housing prices need to come down, and the bankers can withstand some losses. In fact, the sooner they puke out their own bad loans the sooner the world economy can breathe easier again and start investing. We always talk stimulus but this kind of gimmick never works to change macroeconomic realities in a 13 trillion dollar economy.

Berliner
01-25-2008, 13:07
There is more than enough blame to go around. The corporation, the consumer, the government; all equally share in this big mess we've made.

Bike Tourist
01-25-2008, 13:08
Well, I was going to contribute to the "Impeach George Bush" fund, but I don't think any politician is going to suggest that messing up the world is an impeachable offense. Not like lying about an ecounter with a young woman, now that's really serious and world shaking.

So — I guess I'll have to be a good consumer and buy something photographic.

brachal
01-25-2008, 13:15
If the goal is to make SURE the money is spent, they should send everybody a gift-card instead of a check. They could even let us pick the card ...

1. Barnes and Noble
2. Starbucks
3. Home Depot
4. Wal-mart
5. Haliburton

Berliner
01-25-2008, 13:50
Holly Burton? Holly Burton...I like your idea--cut out the middleman...

Wal-mart--might as well send the check directly to China...

Home Depot--same...

Starbucks-- Aah the 'South American Stimulant Package'...Has potential

Barnes and Nobel--that may help, people actually reading something...anything...

greyhoundman
01-25-2008, 14:37
Save it. They'll likely make you add it as income on your next fed tax sheet. This is what they did in 2000. Save the tax now. ;)

wgerrard
01-25-2008, 15:08
Bill, with "fraud" I was referring not to the sales side of it but rather the way loans were repacked. Those who did it, smart people in their way, knew what was going to happen in the end, i.e. what Mark have written above. It might be not punishable by letter of law, but it is a fraud scheme according to most existing moral value systems.

That I can agree with.

The obvious answer is better regulation of the financial industry. I know that runs counter to some thinking these days. But, if big corporations were running amuck in the era of Teddy and Franklin Roosevelt, why should we believe that their 21st century descendants will behave differently? It's been my observation that many people will lie, cheat and steal to acquire more money, even if they're CEO's.

jjovin
01-25-2008, 18:36
Yep.

This isn't a stimulus, it's an election year redistribution. Those above a certain threshold get nothing...those are the ones who pay for the checks that others get.

It's nothing more than Robin Hood. There is no more money in the economy; it's just different people that will have it.

Not only that, but the checks won't go out until May, and some til August!

How is this going to help fend off a recession (that isn't a recession) in January?


Although I will not reject the check, I agree that it is an election year politics that does not solve a single economic problem. I also suspect that the oil prices will go down to below $2. The oil prices have been kept artificially high through controlled production by the oil refineries.

My check will most likely go toward a 100mm ZF.
This can only help German and Japanese economies.

goo0h
01-25-2008, 19:30
So — I guess I'll have to be a good consumer and buy something photographic.
Yup. That's about all we can do. Might as well enjoy it.

Rico
01-25-2008, 20:32
... how are YOU going to use that money.
I'm going to buy George a drink. How much Wild Turkey will $800 get me?

Al Patterson
01-28-2008, 07:02
That's a great way to stimulate the economy. Be sure to take lots of photos of the fall foliage while your on the narrow gauge and post them here.

The drive between La Veta and Trinidad is also splendid during October.

I usually drive north from ABQ through Santa Fe. I should fly into Denver and go over the La Veta pass, as I haven;t been that way for a while. There is also a tourist railroad in Alamosa to visit if they will be running that late in the year.

Al Patterson
01-28-2008, 07:07
Although I will not reject the check, I agree that it is an election year politics that does not solve a single economic problem. I also suspect that the oil prices will go down to below $2. The oil prices have been kept artificially high through controlled production by the oil refineries.

My check will most likely go toward a 100mm ZF.
This can only help German and Japanese economies.

I would suggest you study some economics. Oil at $2 is a fairy tale. OPEC wouldn't stand for it. However, if OPEC expanded production, prices will fall. But I doubt we will ever see oil below $50 again.

Also, while oil refinery capacity may be a problem, it doesn't solely explain the current high prices.

sepiareverb
06-05-2008, 16:53
I was thinking of going to Cuba, but it's getting kinda warm down there now...

PhotoMat
06-05-2008, 20:16
My rebate conveniently arrived just a few days before it was time for me to pay my property tax here in Montana. (Sigh). The government giveth and the government taketh away. :(

dlove5
06-05-2008, 20:53
Hmm, 1 kid in college and the other entering later this year.... Nah - Vacation!!!!! Always a good excuse to actually use some of my camera gear.
Well the kids somehow convinced the parents this should be a family vacation. Something about how this might be the last chance with the youngest off to college in the fall.

So, with partial thanks to our benevolent government - Aruba, here we come!!!

rxmd
06-06-2008, 00:44
My rebate conveniently arrived just a few days before it was time for me to pay my property tax here in Montana. (Sigh). The government giveth and the government taketh away. :(
Hey, where's the attitude gone that gave us the Tea Party? "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto Leica the things which are Leica's" (King Barnack Version).

Philipp

sepiareverb
06-06-2008, 04:11
I wish we Europeans would get welfare checks as well. :D I would get my drink on...

I'm sure some of mine could head your way Erik, got any extra Noctiluxes lying around?:D

sepiareverb
06-06-2008, 07:42
I love the 28 Cron. Handling is about as perfect as it could be, and the quality is absolutely stunning, 1620 prints look fantastic. Quickly becoming my most used lens.

Well, lets figure out how to get you some welfare and get me some f1 :D

kuzano
06-06-2008, 08:03
I'ts much to small to go by itself.

kuzano
06-06-2008, 08:06
My rebate conveniently arrived just a few days before it was time for me to pay my property tax here in Montana. (Sigh). The government giveth and the government taketh away. :(

Hey... I thought youse guys were rebelling against taxes, both federal and local. What gives? Montana is no longer my role model if you have started paying your taxes.

"Members of the Posse Comitatus frequently refuse to pay taxes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax), to obtain driver's licenses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver%27s_license), or otherwise to comply with regulatory authorities. They deny the validity of United States fiat money (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money) as not backed by gold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard), which they claim the Constitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_States) requires.
They have unusual legal documents drawn up and attempt to record them, declaring independence from the United States, or claiming to file "common law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law)" liens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lien) against perceived enemies like Internal Revenue Service (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Revenue_Service) employees or judges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge). They are often involved in various tax protests (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_protester_arguments), and have invoked arguments popularized by tax protesters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_protester_%28United_States%29)."