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View Full Version : Wide options for an R-D1?


Tom Conte
02-01-2005, 08:58
I am wondering what wide lenses people have found to work on an R-D1. I read the LL review (thanks Sean) and it helped, but I'd like to hear other options over the highly expensive Elmarit-M 21/2.8, and somewhat less well performing Voigtlander 12/5.6 and Voigtlander 15/4.5

Thanks
Tom

Sean Reid
02-01-2005, 09:09
Indeed, if there's a very good 21mm lens for the R-D1 out there (other than the Elmarit 21) I'd be glad to hear about it too. Has anyone used the older Leica 21s on the Epson? Corner sharpness? Vignetting?

Cheers,

Sean

Sean Reid
02-01-2005, 09:11
BTW, that VC 12 really is pretty good on the R-D1 if you work that wide.

Sean

Tom Conte
02-01-2005, 09:49
Sean,

That's good to hear. I do like wide for travel to get a landscape shot. To make the R-D1 a lightweight alternative to my 1Ds (I'd need that, even though I'm well aware that the 11mp vs. 6mp issue is significant).

peter_n
02-01-2005, 10:08
Tom & Sean: I use a Kobalux 21mm/f2.8 on my M6. The lens was made by by Y.K. Optical of Yokohama and unfortunately discontinued in 2002. A very highly thought of lens, it does not vignette, accepts regular thickness filters, and has excellent vertical linearity. A collar that protects the back element protrudes 0.5cm from the inside lip of the M bayonet adapter.

Sean Reid
02-01-2005, 10:13
Hi Peter,

That last piece of information you gave is key. If the rear element sits near the mount, vignetting is likely to be minimal (maybe....). Do you have any full size JPEGs we could look at?

Thanks,

Sean

Sean Reid
02-01-2005, 10:16
I'm sorry. I forgot that you said you were using this on an M6. If anyone out there has R-D1 samples made with the Kobalux 21, bring em' on please.

Cheers,

Sean

peter_n
02-01-2005, 10:18
I am sorry to say that I don't have a single scan from this lens. :(

Tom Conte
02-01-2005, 10:51
Hi Peter,

That last piece of information you gave is key. If the rear element sits near the mount, vignetting is likely to be minimal (maybe....).


That's interesting. I had the impression that the main reason for the vignetting on the R-D1 is due to the microlenses on the sensor being designed for an SLR, whereas the incidence of the light on an RF being too oblique (due to the closer placement of the back of the lens to the sensor).

Tom

Sean Reid
02-01-2005, 11:09
The further that rear element sits from the sensor, the more (potentially) telecentric the lens is. If the rear element sits near the mount (instead of being further inboard towards the sensor) the lens is potentially less likely to demonstrate the vignetting common with more symmetrical designs on some other RF lenses. If anyone wants to loan me a Kobalux 21, I'd be happy to test it and find out. If it works well and is inexpensive, us R-D1 folk should start snapping them up. I've already bought a V-C 21mm D finder in anticipation of those perhaps becoming hard to find.

David K., do you have a Kobalux 21?

Cheers,

Sean

DaShiv
02-01-2005, 12:49
I'm waiting to see the new M-mount Zeiss 21mm, since Zeiss said that their new ZM lenses are "digital-ready" (which I interpret to mean that they're internally coated to minimize reflections off of the sensor and are as optically telecentric as possible). I'm guessing that the Zeiss may even perform better on the R-D1 than the Leica 21mm Elmarit. The disparity between the Elmarit performance and the CV 21/4 performance in Sean's shootout at LL has me a bit concerned about the CV (and it's a bit slow for my liking--I don't stop down to zone focus). So I'm waiting on the Zeiss before making any wide-angle decisions.

Plus, I could never afford the 21mm Elmarit anyway. :D

tlianza
02-03-2005, 06:22
Hi,

I have the CV21 and it works fine if you can tolerate the f4 maximum aperature. Vignetting is not a problem for me and it is correctable in the raw module.

I do want to comment on the use by some in this group about "telecentric" lenses. I can assure you that NONE of the lenses made by any manufacturers of cameras are "telecentric" . A retrofocus lens will naturally position the stop further from the focal plane, but it is not telecentric. By definition, a lens with a telecentric stop has the aperature positioned at the front focal point of the lens. For most photographic lenses, this is physically outside of the lens. Telecentric designs are typically found in optical comparators and in imaging systems that are designed to for measuring applications. It is exceedingly difficult to design a telecentric system that has good imaging properties because of the location of the stop. Most lenses that are designated as "D" have the rear exit pupil imaged further forward than a standard double gauss design, but it is a real streatch to call this a telecentric lens.

Sean Reid
02-03-2005, 06:45
Are you suggesting that a photographic lens cannot be described as more telecentric or less telecentric?

Sean

jlw
02-03-2005, 08:59
Indeed, if there's a very good 21mm lens for the R-D1 out there (other than the Elmarit 21) I'd be glad to hear about it too. Has anyone used the older Leica 21s on the Epson? Corner sharpness? Vignetting?

It's still vapor at this point, of course, but I'd really want to see what the M-mount Carl Zeiss 21 can do before I were to write out the big check for that Elmarit...

ccie8407
02-03-2005, 09:34
Has any one consider the 24 Elmarit? I'm surprise no one has mention it yet.

Sean Reid
02-03-2005, 10:01
I haven't tested the 24 Elmarit but I probably should ask Leica to borrow one to test.

The Zeiss 21 may be even more expensive than the Leica 21.

Cheers,

Sean

RML
02-03-2005, 10:09
Has any one consider the 24 Elmarit? I'm surprise no one has mention it yet.

Perhaps it's so expensive none of us have one? I'm just guessing here but there must some reason.... :)

DaShiv
02-03-2005, 10:28
If my 'telecentric' designation was wrong (just parroting what I've heard/read elsewhere), allow me to substitute 'more retrofocus' or 'designed to minimize oblique rays' instead. :D

Sean, the Zeiss 21 will definitely be cheaper than the Leica 21:

http://www.classicconnection.com/Cameras,Zeiss-Ikon%20,Products.asp

It's being listed there for $1307 new. Used prices will depend to some extent on how it fares against the Leica (and the VC), I'm sure, but I'm reasonably optimistic about this.

By the way, there have been rumors of a CV 18/4, which would come out to a traditional 28mm FOV on the R-D1. Another possible option to keep in mind.

ccie8407
02-03-2005, 10:31
According to Classic Connection:
Zeiss 21/2,8mm Biogon black $1307
Zeiss Ikon- Lens Shades for 21/25mm $127
Zeiss Ikon 21mm Viewfinder $491

BTW, I have a 24 Elmarit on the way; will post some result soon.

Too bad the Voigtland D 25mm finder has sold out.

Sean Reid
02-03-2005, 10:55
I'm sorry, I was thinking of a conversation Stephen Gandy and I had about the 15mm, not the 21. At $1300-ish, I'm sure a lot of people will be giving that lens serious thought if it performs well. If Zeiss really did design it to work well with digital, that may be a huge advantage.

Telecentric: I believe that while it may be possible that no exisitng camera lenses are fully telecentric, I still believe that one can describe a lens as being more telecentric or less telecentric (a description of its tendencies). When I have time, I'll research that and find out if it is correct.

Cheers,

Sean

David Kieltyka
02-04-2005, 19:41
David K., do you have a Kobalux 21?


I do indeed. I'm on my Powerbook right now, without access to any of my photos for upload, but I have used the Kobalux with the R-D1. There's a bit of vignetting wide open but not too much (IMO). Little more than with the same lens in front of 35mm film. Not as much as with the CV 28mm f/3.5. The Kobalux has a large front element, which perhaps helps. It's a good lens. Made in small quantities, however, and now out of production so not readily available.

If the upcoming Zeiss 21mm "ZM" performs at the same level as the G version it should be an excellent, though not inexpensive, choice for the R-D1.

I'll post a few Kobalux shots next week when I'm back home.

-Dave-

David Kieltyka
02-07-2005, 16:55
Here are a few pics I took yesterday with the Kobalux 21mm & the R-D1:

http://home.twmi.rr.com/davesden/Graphics/Kensington01_R-D1.jpg

http://home.twmi.rr.com/davesden/Graphics/Kensington02_R-D1.jpg

http://home.twmi.rr.com/davesden/Graphics/Kensington03_R-D1.jpg

All at f/11 for lots of DOF.

-Dave-

Sean Reid
02-08-2005, 14:28
Hi Dave,

Any chance I (or we) could see some full-res files straight from the camera? Are the files above corrected for vignetting or did they look like that from the start?

Best,

Sean

David Kieltyka
02-09-2005, 18:27
Sean, I did in fact use a touch of vignetting compensation. But I don't think the photos really needed it.

(Note: I've e-mailed Sean a few fullsize JPEGs also taken last Sunday with the Kobalux.)

-Dave-