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MP Guy
01-24-2006, 13:54
Should the RFF classified section be visible to RFF members only?

Andrew Touchon
01-24-2006, 13:56
Yes.........................

sf
01-24-2006, 13:58
yes. I would say yes. There would be less of the post count discrimination, and a higher share of trust all around. It makes it, a little, less of a walk in the park for trolls.

paulfitz
01-24-2006, 14:00
I think so, with 4000 members now that is a significant number. This might resolve some issues that other members have about scammers and equipment dumpers.

Gid
01-24-2006, 14:01
I'll go with a yes for this. We are after all trying to support each other in a trusted environment free of scams.

Gid

Kim Coxon
01-24-2006, 14:04
Yes, it is a service for members not an auction house or saleroom.

wlewisiii
01-24-2006, 14:06
I'd say so as well, but it really doesn't take that much more effort for someone to register so I doubt that much would change. Now if you put a minimum post count before someone could sell... perhaps that would work.

William

Todd.Hanz
01-24-2006, 14:06
I think so, maybe only members with 50 posts or more, that way you aleviate the "for sale" ads by people with only one post...the "for sale ad".

dmr
01-24-2006, 14:10
Oops, I didn't read. I missed the word "classified", so my NO vote shoulda been YES.

What I thought Jorge meant was the board in general, which I do believe should be viewable without registering.

I know I registered after I got the idea that this was an active place with good conversation. I absolutely **HATE** registering for a web board only to find that it's a ghost town.

RayPA
01-24-2006, 14:14
Definitely, and perhaps another door once inside (like the 50 post limit).


.

Fred
01-24-2006, 14:15
Yes, definitely.

I'd not just put a post count. Anyone can flood post in a very short time. This has been seen by one or two members who err... like to ask the odd question and sort of post to err.. let me say prompt a reply of sorts.

So I'd suggest a combination of the two, a modest postage count, over a modest time. Say 30 posts over 30 days whichever comes sooner (with a minimum time limit of say 15 days). This way the less prolific poster can still be an active member. Gives us a chance to get to know and welcome new members without the opportunist kit dumper. Its just an idea. Any thoughts?

darkkavenger
01-24-2006, 14:20
Definitely yes :)

Kim Coxon
01-24-2006, 14:20
The trouble with a min count is that if the "one posters" really want to list something, it wouldn't take long to rack the count up with meaningless messages. There have also been several times when members have benefitted from such sales. Phelsuma is one example who had inherited some very nice Canon gear and offered it here to get a good home.

JoeFriday
01-24-2006, 14:22
I'm not sure what the purpose would be of allowing only members to view classifieds.. non-members wouldn't get much out of just reading them unless there's some direct contact info included, which usually is not the case.. and of course only members can post a classified ad of their own, if I'm not mistaken.. so it's a moot point

but I would support the idea of having a certain post count before being able to post an ad.. maybe 20 posts.. 50 seems a little high, but not excessive

laptoprob
01-24-2006, 14:22
I agree with Fred. A combination of posts and time keeps fast visiting sellers at a distance. That is about the only way except contributions to keep our community like a community, the way we all like it. I guess.

Rob.

doubs43
01-24-2006, 14:22
I'll go along with Fred; i.e., a combination of membership and a minimum number of posts. Scammers would have little compuntion about "joining" just to attempt a scam. If it required a little work, it would discourage 99 percent of them IMO.

So I say "Yes".

Walker

bcs89
01-24-2006, 14:26
I think members only also, it seems that in just the short time I have been here there has been a huge increase in first time posts being a FS post, but as William said it only takes a moment to become a member so that may not make much of a difference. Okay, this may not be feasible but here goes... what if the classified section was only visible to members? That way if someone finds the forum and likes it enough for what it is (a wealth of info and great people) to join, at that point "members only" (sounds very elitist doesn't it? sorry) sections would be open/visible to them. Just a thought from a newcomer.

scott

Kim Coxon
01-24-2006, 14:34
You could always have a max post count as well, say 3000. That would stop certain members grabbing all the good stuff and give the rest of us a chance. ;) :D :p

Seriously, I don't see the post count as a problem. It not only affects the "sellers" who could find a way round it but the buyers as well. I have seen quite a few people who have come looking for advice and generally being told that buying from RFF members is the best way to go. If they can't see or post in the classfied's, how can they?

Kim

bcs89
01-24-2006, 14:44
I should have mentioned in my above post that I have benefited greatly from the classifieds - while well below a 50 post count - but when I found the forum I was unaware of them, and they were not the reason I became a member. I guess what I am saying is I dont think the post count is important if people are here for the right reasons. IMHO

scott

lido
01-24-2006, 14:51
I think it should be open to everyone. This might help some of the regular members sell their gear faster as well as get some new people to the forum who might now know about the wealth of knowledge among these pages (Jeorge's mySQL database ;)) but would explore once they are drawn here by classifieds. Just my two cents.

Fred
01-24-2006, 14:57
I think that there is a big difference between a for sale post and a want to buy post.

FS can be seen to be abused just to off load second rate kit without any restrictions from an unknown bod along the lines of "Hey I'm really into RF photography honest but am selling RF/SLR body X + lenses A, B and C to any twit who'll cross my sweaty palm with silver". The seller probably does not give a bulls bum about photography, only to make a quick buck.

I must admit the first thing I check (and I guess others also) is the time and the number of posts that the seller has. If it's single figures or if all his/her posts are FS, I'll pass with mild increase in blood preasure with the slightly uneasy feeling that somone may bite and get burnt.

Putting some sort of bedding in period (combination of time + small number of posts) for members before selling not only protects the seasoned RF member but more importantly the genuine new guy/gal as well. A seasoned member is less likely to ba parted with the folding green stuff.

That's my tuppence worth.

doubs43
01-24-2006, 14:59
You could always have a max post count as well, say 3000. That would stop certain members grabbing all the good stuff and give the rest of us a chance. ;) :D :p Seriously, I don't see the post count as a problem. Kim

Only 1842 more to go after this one....... and I haven't bought a single item from the Classifieds.... yet! :D

The post count could be stipulated for sellers only while new members could purchase right away. They just couldn't sell immediately. If the idea is to prevent scams, just becoming a member isn't going to stop them. Just my opinion.

BTW, anything I decide to sell to RFF members will have a 5 day money-back guarantee as long as it's returned in the same condition as sent. The member can use the 5 days to be certain that they've received a good working item.

Walker

Fred
01-24-2006, 15:00
Err. I don't see a problem with WTB posts, seasoned RFers tend to be RF savvy as to what they want.

Kim Coxon
01-24-2006, 15:22
The problem would be that the server wouldn't know a WTB from a FS post so you would need 2 threads (I think). If the classifieds were not visible to non members, they wouldn't know they existed and wouldn't the join to purely make a sale. Phelsuma came here asking for advice on value and the best place to sell and was immediately bombarded with ME, ME, ME. I was one of the members who benefitted from that. Our moderator was another. By banning such sales, you are not depriving the sellers so much as the members.

True there are quite a few FS threads that I ignore but that goes for some topics on other threads as well. A members only ruling makes sense and is fair to all. If you start placing post limits and time limits, you have to join the few. I seem to remember that a short while ago on a different topic, one of the points made by several newcomers was that they sometimes felt intimidated by what was perceived to be an "in crowd". Any limits would make this worse.

Err. I don't see a problem with WTB posts, seasoned RFers tend to be RF savvy as to what they want.

bmattock
01-24-2006, 15:27
I think it would be good if users had to be members for a year before they could post a classified ad. Too much room for ugliness intruding upon we happy few.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

Flyfisher Tom
01-24-2006, 15:35
Yes, keep classified viewable to members only.

Bar members <50 posts (spread out over 1 month) from posting FS.

Allow all members (including <50 posts) to post WTB.

bcs89
01-24-2006, 15:35
After more thought I think I may have spoken too soon (in more ways than one). It seems if someones first and only post is a FS - it tends to just get ignored anyway, yet members trying to sell something do benefit from all the exposure they can get, so.....as one who has reaped the rewards of the classifieds as a newbie (buying), I will just keep quite now.

scott

back alley
01-24-2006, 15:43
why?

the for sale threads are almost always posted by a registered member anyway.
even the spammers register first.

what would it possibly accomplish?

slow the bad guys down by a minute or 2?
or would they stop and think about it and then decide not to post here because of the bother?

too many rules folks!!
this makes us exclusive not inclusive.

too many rules and we become like the other sites.
we are different because we work together as a team!!

ch1
01-24-2006, 15:44
I voted YES but now have second thoughts.

If you make the Classifieds "exclusive" for members only - won't we just wind up with a lot of nominal "members" who are only interested in buying and selling?

I'll "swim against the tide here" and ask Jorge to change my vote to NO.

bmattock
01-24-2006, 15:47
why?

the for sale threads are almost always posted by a registered member anyway.
even the spammers register first.

what would it possibly accomplish?

slow the bad guys down by a minute or 2?
or would they stop and think about it and then decide not to post here because of the bother?

too many rules folks!!
this makes us exclusive not inclusive.

too many rules and we become like the other sites.
we are different because we work together as a team!!

One year membership. Works wonders. Really.

back alley
01-24-2006, 15:51
is this a big problem here?

too many 'bad' for sale signs going up?

ch1
01-24-2006, 15:58
is this a big problem here?

too many 'bad' for sale signs going up?

Joe,

As a follow up to my comments above - anyone can "join" eBay. After all it IS a membership organization.

So I really think we have to consider the "unintended consequences" of limiting viewing the Classifieds to members. Doing so may actually make this MORE of an auction site - not LESS.

And, as you ask, why has this come up?

George

Kim Coxon
01-24-2006, 16:08
The only "serious" problem I had was in response to a WTB. One of the nice things here is that apart from Joe and Jorge, we are all members. Do we really want to have "grades" of membership over this?

Apart from people getting hot under the collar, has there been a serious problem with a FS listing?

kmack
01-24-2006, 16:12
Put me in the "Open to the world" camp. The RFF classifieds have been very good to me. We have a very good moderator who knows what he is doing and in general we are a pretty savvy group. I don't see why we need to complicate things.

dcsang
01-24-2006, 16:34
And here I was thinking that this post was about being naked...

With His Member,
Dave ;)

flashover
01-24-2006, 16:37
I think it would be good if users had to be members for a year before they could post a classified ad. Too much room for ugliness intruding upon we happy few.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks


One year you must be joking. I have bought and sold here ( sold to cover the stuff I bought ) and have I hope added some to the fourm but a year. I voted yes at first but I am now also having second thoughts about it.

RJ-
01-24-2006, 16:47
Oh.

I was beginning to like this forum.

lkgroup
01-24-2006, 16:49
A year is to long. I just got a lens from Flashover for a good price. He hasn't been a member for a year. I would have missed out on a good deal.

Think carefully, we might be missing out on good deals if we make such a rule.

Remember is takes two to make a deal. If you don't want to dealwith newbies, don't.

Leo

ch1
01-24-2006, 16:50
Could THIS be the thread that illustrates the PROBLEM?

I shoot both Nikon RF and SLR. I would NEVER post for SLR lenses (buy or sell) here.

Maybe we have to all remember that this is RFF.

I'd love it if Jorge set up a film-based SLR site - but this is, IMHO, "beyond the Pale"!

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=211273#post211273

nwcanonman
01-24-2006, 16:51
Well hit me with a brick. :)
OK ----------- :bang:
BTW - I'm for members only also.

Gerry M
01-24-2006, 17:00
What back alley said.

1 year waiting period? No.

Not everyone is a prolific poster.

Try not to make it too exclusive or complicated.

SixtiesM2
01-24-2006, 17:03
A year minimum membership is too long, unless you really want a private club. Evidently, some do, which is OK, I suppose.

I've lurked here for over a year. Member for only a few months. Man of few postings, by choice. I didn't join to sell, but it could look that way to some, were I to post some for sale items.

The 3000+ posters probably don't care much for the recent flurry of non-RF items posted for sale. I don't either.

However, I've had lots of GAS fueled by reading discussions here, and will probably sell some of my acquisitions in the next year. RFF members will have to fight it out on the bay for some good stuff, if the restrictions are too tight. I expect some of the old timers will snipe at me for posting FS items while being "too new".

My suggestions:

Restricting SLR and digitals from "for sale" listings would probably clean things up, but having reviewed a couple of recent mixed postings, I don't see non RF items as a problem.

Want to buy postings for just about any photo item aren't a problem.

A couple of month's (two to four) minimum membership requirement would probably kill off most of the "drive by" selling.

I voted for "members only" to view and post, but I don't think that's asking much, given that joining only takes a few minutes, and a day or so processing time.

- Mike

MP Guy
01-24-2006, 17:12
Actually, I would love to set up an slr site but there are so many that I dont think it would work. RFF is unique and awesome.

I do have some domains set aside for such a grand scheme. :)

camerasaloon.com

thecamerasaloon.com

photographersaloon.com

distinguishedphotos.com

myfieldofview.com

I guess I could start up such a site and automatically give everyone here membership.

Gerry M
01-24-2006, 17:27
Jorge,

Great idea. The "camerasaloon" is a winner.

Gerry

flashover
01-24-2006, 17:39
Ok I will toss in another 2 cents. I don't frequent other sites ie SLR or Digital. I would rather see the stuff I listed go to someone here. IE the lens I just sold. That was listed with rangefinders and slr stuff. Hum the SLR's went first. If I was looking for a 17-80 for my D1 I would love to find it here. Just as I would rather buy my next rangefinder from a menber. We all are I hope fairly intelligent as we need to read and spell ( well I may have problems there) I think we can make our own choices as to if we want to deal with someone. Also a new menber with 1 or 2 posts will most likly get a steer in the right direction from some one.

DougK
01-24-2006, 17:46
I voted "yes" initially but after thinking about it I've changed my mind and would like to change my vote to "no." It's not asking a lot for somebody to join up in order to buy or sell something here, but if that's the content that convinces people to sign on, so be it. As long as they deal honestly and forthrightly, then I say "welcome aboard."

ch1
01-24-2006, 17:52
Ok I will toss in another 2 cents. I don't frequent other sites ie SLR or Digital. I would rather see the stuff I listed go to someone here. IE the lens I just sold. That was listed with rangefinders and slr stuff. Hum the SLR's went first. If I was looking for a 17-80 for my D1 I would love to find it here. Just as I would rather buy my next rangefinder from a menber. We all are I hope fairly intelligent as we need to read and spell ( well I may have problems there) I think we can make our own choices as to if we want to deal with someone. Also a new menber with 1 or 2 posts will most likly get a steer in the right direction from some one.

I thought it was understood by all that this is a RF site.

We only post RF pics to the Gallery - right?

So it stands to reason that we only sell/buy RF gear here!

I use Nikon film SLRs and there are presently nearly 2000 items of such gear listed on eBay.

At the same time, there are 61 Nikon RF listings on eBay (and some of those are bogus non-Nikon gear using the name as a "teaser" in the heading)!

I didn't come to this site to see it become a digital "Pennysaver" classified ad sheet!

I always thought that the Classifieds here were "incidental" to the exchage of RF info.

Maybe it would be better to just shut down the whole Classifieds section?

JimG
01-24-2006, 18:02
As long as we still always have the option of taking a pass on offers we receive where's the problem? Members have posted positive responses here regarding deals made with members new and old.

back alley
01-24-2006, 18:04
now george...that's only partially accurate.

we do allow, within reason, photos taken with all kinds of gear in our gallery.

and we do allow the posting of non rf gear in the classified section.

we had a discussion of this a while back and the mambership thought that, considering most use several formats, it would be ok to list non rf gear.

no one wants a pennysaver but my philosophy from the start has been to be inclusive as much as possible rather than exclusive.
rules make for exclusivity.

we ALL are the real keepers of this site, not just me.
that's why i get so upset when people buy into trolls and feed them cause if we just carry on in a respectful manner we will drive out those who only want to cause some form of trouble.

ok, sermon over...

zpuskas
01-24-2006, 18:14
I agree with back alley. What's the purpose of limitation? Is the present system broken? Doesn't caveat emptor apply to all purchases? It seems to me most RFF members are quite savvy buyers/ and honest sellers.
Suggestion..Since this is an RF forum, I'd like to see the segregation of SLR ads to a separate list--not that I have anything against SLR's--some of my best friends are SLR's.

SixtiesM2
01-24-2006, 18:36
I reviewed some of the For Sale postings, and as a result, I have modified my earlier suggestion that we restrict the kind of items posted.

Flashover posted a mixed RF and SLR advert, and it looks as if there are plenty of willing buyers for SLR stuff.

No objections, no restrictions, let the games begin....

- Mike

JoeFriday
01-24-2006, 18:40
why?

the for sale threads are almost always posted by a registered member anyway.
even the spammers register first.

what would it possibly accomplish?

slow the bad guys down by a minute or 2?
or would they stop and think about it and then decide not to post here because of the bother?

too many rules folks!!
this makes us exclusive not inclusive.

too many rules and we become like the other sites.
we are different because we work together as a team!!
this is exactly why I voted NO

jmilkins
01-24-2006, 18:48
Actually, I would love to set up an slr site but there are so many that I dont think it would work. RFF is unique and awesome.

I guess I could start up such a site and automatically give everyone here membership.

Jorge - i love the idea of an SLR based forum with similar people on this list - somewhere to post images SLR's are handy for (sports macro nature) in a non Pnut environment.

On the open /closed membership issue.. . anyone listing Rangefinder WTB's - not a problem. More to the fold.

As for FS/FT - well I use my own inbuilt filter - I'd probably only buy or trade with someone I "know" here - i.e. I find that this supports the sense of community here. and then there's the nice chance to see images taken with a camera you used to own!

bmattock
01-24-2006, 18:49
What back alley said.

1 year waiting period? No.

Not everyone is a prolific poster.

Try not to make it too exclusive or complicated.

I didn't say prolific posting, I said one year membership. That's different.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

ch1
01-24-2006, 18:52
now george...that's only partially accurate.

we do allow, within reason, photos taken with all kinds of gear in our gallery.

and we do allow the posting of non rf gear in the classified section.

we had a discussion of this a while back and the mambership thought that, considering most use several formats, it would be ok to list non rf gear.

no one wants a pennysaver but my philosophy from the start has been to be inclusive as much as possible rather than exclusive.
rules make for exclusivity.

we ALL are the real keepers of this site, not just me.
that's why i get so upset when people buy into trolls and feed them cause if we just carry on in a respectful manner we will drive out those who only want to cause some form of trouble.

ok, sermon over...


Joe,

What spurred my comment WAS NOT the response. But that the original thread that posted a WTB for SLR-only items!

He had just bought a Nikon FMxx and was seeking lenses!

There are a feces-pile of these listed on eBay any day of the week!

Why post such a WTB here?

That was my reason - NOT the response!

George

bmattock
01-24-2006, 19:04
Interesting. I didn't expect this much heat behind this. Lots of people trying to figure out my motives for suggesting one year, some getting angry over it.

First of all, I'm not a moderator, my say means exactly nothing here. It's just a suggestion.

Second, it is not because we've had or not had problems here with fraudulent sales or what-have-you.

Third, it has nothing to do with RF sales versus SLR sales or any other kind of sales.

My suggestion was merely because I don't care for 'hit-n-git' FS and WTB posts by one-post wonders. I find it annoying that they would presume on Jorge's generosity and all of our politeness to do so. Like some stranger showing up at my front door and expecting to be let in to take a dump. Nothing against newbies - all of us were newbies here once. I just like to have a feeling for a person before they start with the FS and WTB stuff.

Why a year? To establish your cred. Period. I like to have some kind of idea what kind of person you are before you start in with the FS and WTB stuff. Not how honest a person is - there are probably dishonest long-termers and honest newbies galore. Just to see you stick around, partake of the fellowship, be part of something - then ask to use the can, so to speak.

Hey, that's my 2 cents - one year waiting period to post FS and WTB.

Best Regards,

JoeFriday
01-24-2006, 19:13
I have to disagree with Bill on this one.. altho I can understand where he's coming from.. but if a one-year moratorium were imposed before I was able to buy/sell, I think I'll be eligible for that in a couple weeks.. I'm quite sure I would have left this site long before that due to the exclusionary nature.. I know I'd be insulted by that sort of restriction.. I don't expect anyone to trust me without establishing myself.. but I wouldn't stay at a site that openly distrusts me merely for being new

back alley
01-24-2006, 19:16
no disrespect bill but i have this image of some poor shlep with his pants full and stinkin' up the place as he waits his turn to use the john. ;)

back alley
01-24-2006, 19:17
Joe,

What spurred my comment WAS NOT the response. But that the original thread that posted a WTB for SLR-only items!

He had just bought a Nikon FMxx and was seeking lenses!

There are a feces-pile of these listed on eBay any day of the week!

Why post such a WTB here?

That was my reason - NOT the response!

George


ok, but george, would you rather buy a slr lens here or ebay?
for me, i jump quicker here than there.

joe

ch1
01-24-2006, 19:18
Interesting. I didn't expect this much heat behind this. Lots of people trying to figure out my motives for suggesting one year, some getting angry over it.

First of all, I'm not a moderator, my say means exactly nothing here. It's just a suggestion.

Second, it is not because we've had or not had problems here with fraudulent sales or what-have-you.

Third, it has nothing to do with RF sales versus SLR sales or any other kind of sales.

My suggestion was merely because I don't care for 'hit-n-git' FS and WTB posts by one-post wonders. I find it annoying that they would presume on Jorge's generosity and all of our politeness to do so. Like some stranger showing up at my front door and expecting to be let in to take a dump. Nothing against newbies - all of us were newbies here once. I just like to have a feeling for a person before they start with the FS and WTB stuff.

Why a year? To establish your cred. Period. I like to have some kind of idea what kind of person you are before you start in with the FS and WTB stuff. Not how honest a person is - there are probably dishonest long-termers and honest newbies galore. Just to see you stick around, partake of the fellowship, be part of something - then ask to use the can, so to speak.

Hey, that's my 2 cents - one year waiting period to post FS and WTB.

Best Regards,


Bill,

With all due respect, I think your suggestion is very unfair to us "under 1 year" clowns!

After all, given your main theme, how could I possibly offer a WTB to help you get rid of your "dead" film gear if I had to wait another six and a half months? :D

According to you, at the rate things are going, there won't be anymore film left by the time your "rule" would let me post a WTB for your gear! :confused:

Unfair - call the ump [Hey, Joe (oops, that sounds likde a '60's song!)] - Bill's playing unfair! :p :D :D :bang:

back alley
01-24-2006, 19:18
or is it that you guys think we have too many for sale ads here?

i'm just trying to figure out the tons of what i would call negative responses.

ch1
01-24-2006, 19:26
or is it that you guys think we have too many for sale ads here?

i'm just trying to figure out the tons of what i would call negative responses.

Joe,

It's Tuesday.

Weather is January.

Folks are feisty.

No real issue as far as I can tell - just a "gripe" session.

But, hey, why did this whole poll/thread get started anyway?

Someone must've got burned bad.

George

bmattock
01-24-2006, 19:30
I have to disagree with Bill on this one.. altho I can understand where he's coming from.. but if a one-year moratorium were imposed before I was able to buy/sell, I think I'll be eligible for that in a couple weeks.. I'm quite sure I would have left this site long before that due to the exclusionary nature.. I know I'd be insulted by that sort of restriction.. I don't expect anyone to trust me without establishing myself.. but I wouldn't stay at a site that openly distrusts me merely for being new

I guess that's the part I don't 'get', sorry. I don't see how it is exclusionary or how it would make someone "leave the site." I mean, do you come here to buy and sell and oh, incidentally, to post and read messages? No, it's the other way around, right?

Exclusionary? If it were to exist - it would just be a rule - like so many photos per day uploads. No one stopped from posting, from reading, from partaking. Just one little thing.

I don't understand. Are you insulted because you can't upload porn? No, of course not. It's just a rule. So what's insulting about having to wait a year to post a FS or WTB listing?

As I said, it says nothing about honesty or integrity or trustworthiness. Just about sticking around. Getting to know and to be known - not for honesty's sake, just to be part of the community.

I once realized that most four-year college degrees are never used in the fields that they are intended for. But employers like to see 'em anyway. Why? Because it means you can do something from start to finish that takes four years. That's all.

Hey, I sent a couple of lenses to a member here. Didn't even think twice about it, just loaned them out. His bona fides were his time served here at RFF. He has become a friend. He could still hoodwink me, but I am willing to take that risk. Think I'd do that with a one-day wonder? No way. Sorry if that's insulting, but that's the way it is.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

danielnorton
01-24-2006, 19:33
I think the classifieds can be a good way to bring new members. Sure, some will come and buy/sell then go, but some (like me) stick around to buy more :D

My first trip to this great forum was a few months ago when a friend of mine showed me a link here to a FS of a Konica Hexar AF after I had told him I'd always wanted one.

Well, I might not be the most prolific poster, but I love this community and I'm happy I found it, even if through the classified section. :angel:

I also agree with the idea that I'd rather buy/sell whatever gear from people here as I think this is a great community, and posting OT for non rangefinder sales stuff works fine.

ch1
01-24-2006, 19:38
....

As I said, it says nothing about honesty or integrity or trustworthiness. Just about sticking around. Getting to know and to be known - not for honesty's sake, just to be part of the community....

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

Sounds like Bill misses "Cheers" ! :D

"Hey, Sam, your seen Norm around lately?

Maybe we should ask Diane if Cliff has seen him?

Waddya' say, Cliff?

Nope, did ya' ask Carla where he is?"

WHERE EVERYBODY KNOWS YOUR NAME!

:D Cheers! :D

bmattock
01-24-2006, 19:39
Bill,

With all due respect, I think your suggestion is very unfair to us "under 1 year" clowns!

After all, given your main theme, how could I possibly offer a WTB to help you get rid of your "dead" film gear if I had to wait another six and a half months? :D

According to you, at the rate things are going, there won't be anymore film left by the time your "rule" would let me post a WTB for your gear! :confused:

Unfair - call the ump [Hey, Joe (oops, that sounds likde a '60's song!)] - Bill's playing unfair! :p :D :D :bang:

Hey, I met up with a bunch of prior military service guys in a bar once. We started talking war stories, having fun, laughing and joking, etc. One guy came up, wanted to join in. He always wanted to have joined up, but never got around to it. His brother was a serviceman, etc. He didn't understand why he wasn't just accepted as part of the group. He said we were being unfair and he got mad and left.

Hey. You either pack the gear or you don't. You paid the price or you didn't. I'm sorry life is unfair.

RFF is a place full of people, many of whom I consider friends - I hope they think of me that way too. I'm sorry it takes time to become 'part of the crowd' here. I don't think hanging around for awhile and getting to know ever buddy is too much to ask before posting FS and WTB ads (even for my soon-to-be obsolete film kit LOL).

A year too much? OK, I'm open to suggestions. But I suggested that because no one is going to hang around a year JUST to post FS and WTB ads. Either they get bored and go away, or they become part of the community.

It's not a numbers game here, I hope. Not how many posts you have, or how long you've been around, or whatever. Anyone can join - no charge. Anyone can post - no charge. Not everyone can partake of this thing of our, if you get my drift.

Unfair? OK. I can live with that. I'm not a PC guy, remember?

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

back alley
01-24-2006, 19:45
i get the 'paying your dues' thing, i really do.
and i think that works for some things but it just doesn't feel right to me here.
and my gut usually rules before my head does.

btw, this is jorge's baby, this thread. i have no idea if someone got burned or complained.
my guess is jorge was bored again...i think he's trolling...;)

joe

ch1
01-24-2006, 19:49
Hey, I met up with a bunch of prior military service guys in a bar once. We started talking war stories, having fun, laughing and joking, etc. One guy came up, wanted to join in. He always wanted to have joined up, but never got around to it. His brother was a serviceman, etc. He didn't understand why he wasn't just accepted as part of the group. He said we were being unfair and he got mad and left.

Hey. You either pack the gear or you don't. You paid the price or you didn't. I'm sorry life is unfair.

RFF is a place full of people, many of whom I consider friends - I hope they think of me that way too. I'm sorry it takes time to become 'part of the crowd' here. I don't think hanging around for awhile and getting to know ever buddy is too much to ask before posting FS and WTB ads (even for my soon-to-be obsolete film kit LOL).

A year too much? OK, I'm open to suggestions. But I suggested that because no one is going to hang around a year JUST to post FS and WTB ads. Either they get bored and go away, or they become part of the community.

It's not a numbers game here, I hope. Not how many posts you have, or how long you've been around, or whatever. Anyone can join - no charge. Anyone can post - no charge. Not everyone can partake of this thing of our, if you get my drift.

Unfair? OK. I can live with that. I'm not a PC guy, remember?

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks


Aw C;mon Bill - keep it light (lite?)

This isn't the military - it primarily a bunch of fat old farts looking for some companionship!

I'll grant you that some of the folks here lately seem to be iinterested in just dumping sold old film gear on some geezers - but so what?

Unlike the Army - we don't HAVE to come here.

We choose to do so.

And, unlike some exclusive country club - we don't pay big dues to be here.

We choose to do so.

I'll grant you that I do not think most of us wants this to turn into a "Buy Lines" - but putting in "residency requirements" seems more than a "tad over the topper" as some of our GB/UK colleagues would put it!

Simon Larbalestier
01-24-2006, 19:55
I'd agree with Fred and Doubs43 but regarding the daily limit of posts that would be difficult for people like myself and i'm sure others, who have perhaps spare time between shoot projects and access to the internet but not everyday.


Simon

bmattock
01-24-2006, 20:05
Aw C;mon Bill - keep it light (lite?)

This isn't the military - it primarily a bunch of fat old farts looking for some companionship!

Sounds like my war story friends. Including me.


I'll grant you that some of the folks here lately seem to be iinterested in just dumping sold old film gear on some geezers - but so what?


Well, I can say so what is nothing, that's what. Frankly, I'm not much interested. Sometimes I've noticed something that caught my eye. I bought a suitcase here. Sold a Electro CC. But I sold another camera, and the guy went away and never posted here again, and never responded to my emails asking what the heck I'd done. I find it not worth it in general. But that's just me.

Then I see the posts - hey d00d, if you force me to post in order to buy or sell, then why should I stick around, d00d? I say, good riddance - beat it. Who needs ya.


Unlike the Army - we don't HAVE to come here.


Watch that Army talk. I'm a jarhead.


We choose to do so.


Hasn't been a draft for a long time now. I choose too.


And, unlike some exclusive country club - we don't pay big dues to be here.


Not true. Your dues are your heart, soul, and mind. If you can't pay that, why are you here? Being a friend is a high investment. Money is nothing, being genuine is something. I think the kids call it 'keeping it real'.


We choose to do so.

I'll grant you that I do not think most of us wants this to turn into a "Buy Lines" - but putting in "residency requirements" seems more than a "tad over the topper" as some of our GB/UK colleagues would put it!

Hey, I'm not trying to win any converts. Just my 2 cents. I have no problem with people who find me unfair. Life sucks, youngsters - get a helmet. :D

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

JoeFriday
01-24-2006, 20:13
if a probationary period (and that's exactly what we're describing) is implemented, here's what will happen to many new members.. they'll come here to learn about RF's.. great idea, we all agree

then they'll decide that whatever they currently own isn't doing it for them (gee, that never happens here, does it?) so they become enamored with a Leica AK47 or Canonelle QL71.. and the old timers here are selling them back and forth to each other just to have something to do during the day.. but the newguy can't buy one because he's the equivalent of a high school freshman

I know my enthusiasm for RFF would die the moment I discovered I wasn't a real member

the only way I see this as working is if the time-limit was fairly short.. perhaps 2 weeks.. maybe combined with a 10 post minimum.. that would stop the instant sellers.. but not be enough to turn off potential contributors

bmattock
01-24-2006, 20:31
if a probationary period (and that's exactly what we're describing) is implemented, here's what will happen to many new members.. they'll come here to learn about RF's.. great idea, we all agree

then they'll decide that whatever they currently own isn't doing it for them (gee, that never happens here, does it?) so they become enamored with a Leica AK47 or Canonelle QL71.. and the old timers here are selling them back and forth to each other just to have something to do during the day.. but the newguy can't buy one because he's the equivalent of a high school freshman

I know my enthusiasm for RFF would die the moment I discovered I wasn't a real member

the only way I see this as working is if the time-limit was fairly short.. perhaps 2 weeks.. maybe combined with a 10 post minimum.. that would stop the instant sellers.. but not be enough to turn off potential contributors

Well, I can't say you don't make a good point there, because you do. All I can say is 'sorry about that' and I'd still go with a longer probationary period than two weeks, and if people decided to take offense at not being 'real members' and go away, then so be it.

I agree, it's a probationary period - sorry I didn't think to use the term, you're right.

All I see is a bunch of 'wah, unfair, I don't get to partake without paying my dues, wah'.

I read Jorge posting a contest. Simple, right? RF camera, 50mm lens. I understood it.

Suddenly, he's unfair. Oh, what about a 45mm? What about a 35mm? What about a 28mm? Why not digital? Some of us don't have rangefinders, why can't we shoot an SLR? What you got against Autofocus? And so on. Buncha whiners and crybabies, ya want my opinion. Anybody here ever learn to just suck it up and git 'er done?

There are lots of things in life that require an investment of time. College. Military service. Marriage (ha - I'm dreaming on that one). Everybody wants the benefit, but they don't want to put in the time. Everybody wants to be kung fu master, nobody wants to learn how to chop wood and carry water for the sempai. And if everybody doesn't get the same benefits as that old fart over there in the corner who mouths off all the time (me), then Jorge is being unfair. Oh, the hurt. Oh, the discrimination. Oh, the agony. Oh, the pathos. Gag me.

Well, whatever. I think Joe's right, I think Jorge was just poking the bear with a stick. And anyway - nobody is about to take my advice, so I'm just talking to hear my head ring here.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

bmattock
01-24-2006, 20:35
I know my enthusiasm for RFF would die the moment I discovered I wasn't a real member


I want to reply to this specifically, but I have no idea how to spell the sound of a really long rasberry sound. With tongue sticking out and hands waggling in ears. Well, you can visualize, I guess.

:D

Bill

JoeFriday
01-24-2006, 20:37
pfffffffffffffffft

JoeFriday
01-24-2006, 20:39
and here would be my reply to that

( | )

bmattock
01-24-2006, 20:43
pfffffffffffffffft

No, not enough spit in it. I mean a real lip vibrating rasberry, with vibrato and pizzicato and all like that. Like I was playing clarinet at you minus the woodwind. I want to put p's and d's and t's in there with some s's. Hmmm. Some things are just better in person, I guess.

Smooches,

Bill

bmattock
01-24-2006, 20:44
and here would be my reply to that

( | )

The sound of one mind closing? Just a guess, I suck at pictionary.

Todd.Hanz
01-24-2006, 20:46
Actually, I would love to set up an slr site but there are so many that I dont think it would work. RFF is unique and awesome.

I do have some domains set aside for such a grand scheme. :)

camerasaloon.com

thecamerasaloon.com

photographersaloon.com

distinguishedphotos.com

myfieldofview.com

I guess I could start up such a site and automatically give everyone here membership.



How about a SLR/TLR site, I like "myfieldofview.com"

Todd

JoeFriday
01-24-2006, 20:47
nope.. just think of the song Moon River, then take away the River

Little Prince
01-24-2006, 20:49
Initially I was thinking 'yes, for members only'. But now, after reading the thoughts of some (Ray, Brett, Fred, Joe, flashover etc..) I feel their arguments are impressive. So I'm going to vote NO.

bmattock
01-24-2006, 20:56
nope.. just think of the song Moon River, then take away the River

Oh, I get it now! Sorry, I thought that was your hat. Silly me.

ch1
01-24-2006, 21:43
Good old Bill.

Ever the "rabble rouser".

Now he wants a "probationary period" before someone can "qualify" as a RFF'er. I'm sure there will be "loyalty tests" too.

Used to be you just needed an interest and, preferably a RF camera. Now you are going to have to meet Bill's qualifying criteria.

But now we have rules, requirements, regulations and requisite probationary periods! This is "organization".

What's next, Bill? Are we all supposed to earn our "RF stripes" to sew on to our official RFF Brown Shirts?

RML
01-24-2006, 22:50
I'd say "members only" but only because I can't come up with a method that I would really prefer. I'd like to do business with a member that actually partakes in this site, who joins in the discussions and the fray, who opens up to the rest of us, and to whom I can relate. I just did a fab deal with both RBiemer and JoeFriday. Why? Because I got to know them from their participation in this forum, and had no doubts I was dealing with some good guys. Buying and selling is a matter of trust, and trust you can only build up by being an active part of this community. Problem is, how do you "enforce" such a thing before someone can do business, either as a seller or a buyer? I don't have the answer. The only reasonable answer right now seems to be to make the classifieds section "members only".... but I'm not going to vote for it. I can't justify it enough for myself because it won't give me the trust in the "other" that I need to do business with him/her.

Brian Sweeney
01-25-2006, 03:04
I voted for members only to view the Classified ads.

As far as post count, etc, just because I post an item for sale at RFF does not mean that it MUST go to the first person that responds. It is not a binding contract. If someone joins, has never posted, and wants to send a personal check and demands immediate shipment or use Paypal -or something else that makes me uncomfortable- I can always say NO or retract the item from sale.

Better than Ebay where I have received bogus Paypal payments.

jaapv
01-25-2006, 03:42
Yes, definitely.

I'd not just put a post count. Anyone can flood post in a very short time. This has been seen by one or two members who err... like to ask the odd question and sort of post to err.. let me say prompt a reply of sorts.

So I'd suggest a combination of the two, a modest postage count, over a modest time. Say 30 posts over 30 days whichever comes sooner (with a minimum time limit of say 15 days). This way the less prolific poster can still be an active member. Gives us a chance to get to know and welcome new members without the opportunist kit dumper. Its just an idea. Any thoughts?

This sounds like a very good idea to me. Maybe we could even create a "trusted members" pool to evaluate equipment if so desired or help with escrow-like services. However, on second thought, that might have legal consequences.

Kim Coxon
01-25-2006, 04:07
Hi Bill,
I don't see it quite like this. With your proposal for a year's probation it works like this: There you are in the bar and a guy walks in. He's done 20 years in the military but you don't know his face. He therefore has to sit in the corner for a year until you do and then he can join in. Why not invite him to join in straight away. Then if it proves that he has no service background, was navy or doesn't have anything useful to say (SLR user) you can ignore him.

I see RFF more as the bar not a circle within that bar. It may be the bar in town that is favoured by the ex military guys and there may be a circles of ex marines, army, navy and flyboys. They all share something in common but maybe not everything. If a new guy comes in, they may feel a bit awkward until they find the "right" circle but then he keeps coming back. If he doesn't fit in with any of the circles, he leaves. You don't need a sign saying "Ex-Military Only" on the door.

Members only says they can't drink on the sidewalk. Once they are in the bar, it is your choice whether you drink with them or not. Why make rules and complicate things, increasing the workload on Jorge and Joe, if we don't have to.

Kim

Hey, I met up with a bunch of prior military service guys in a bar once. We started talking war stories, having fun, laughing and joking, etc. One guy came up, wanted to join in. He always wanted to have joined up, but never got around to it. His brother was a serviceman, etc. He didn't understand why he wasn't just accepted as part of the group. He said we were being unfair and he got mad and left.

Hey. You either pack the gear or you don't. You paid the price or you didn't. I'm sorry life is unfair.


Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

ch1
01-25-2006, 06:25
"I would never want to Join any club that would have me as a member.!" :D

- with apologies to Groucho Marx

EricC
01-25-2006, 07:33
Initially I was thinking 'yes, for members only'. But now, after reading the thoughts of some (Ray, Brett, Fred, Joe, flashover etc..) I feel their arguments are impressive. So I'm going to vote NO.

After reading Little Princes post and all of the other members who so elequently voiced their opinions, I would also like Jorge to change my vote to NO if that is at all possible.

I initially voted YES, yet i suppose i am one of the guilty ones, having been a member here for 2 years and only having 21 posts to my name, and therefore by my own reasoning should not have been able to post any adds myself :bang:

Eric.

Gipsy
01-25-2006, 08:01
I remember when every one was a new member. It is simple YOU ARE A MEMBER OR YOU ARE NOT. If you registered and you want to post a FS in the classifieds do so. I don't have to read or respond to any post. The date you registered and the number of post you have made are clearly visible.

Now back to the question the restriction of the classifieds to viewing by registered members only. I vote NO.
The forum is thriving because of two things content and traffic. The sponsors list is growing because of traffic and product association. Membership is on the increase because people find the content worth taking the time to register. There are times when guest outnumber members. Go look at the FS post check the number of views and the number of responses they create interest. Your idea was to one day make the site self supporting or maybe even profitable. So why would you want to restrict content and change something that is working?

lynn
01-25-2006, 08:05
A wholehearted NO!
This wonderful place elitist and exclusive? Tsk. What a shame that would be....
I came here - way less than a year ago - with a hunkering for knowledge and inspiration and with the best of intentions. Doesn't the sincere niceness here tend to thwart the chaff before it runs rampant anyhow?
(And Bill can make all the funny noises he wants, but I know that I would not have taken kindly to a years probation. )
Also, since it was mentioned: I think an SLR/TLR forum - a fine one, like this - would be brilliant.

flashover
01-25-2006, 08:11
Hay how do I change my vote, or is this like an election. Once cast your stuck. I see a turn in the tide. I should of read more before I voted earlyer. Other fourms like FM require you to be a menber to view the FS board. That's the only requirement though, no waiting time or post level.

Socke
01-25-2006, 08:13
Hm, I'm undecided. I think viewing to all, the seller can decide if he accepts a customer, and posting to members would be okay.

bmattock
01-25-2006, 08:20
The forum is thriving because of two things content and traffic.


I disagree. Content yes, traffic no. More does not equal better. It is just more. More good, but also more bad. More intelligent discourse, more trolls and wankers.


The sponsors list is growing because of traffic and product association.


True, dat. However, the sponsors' metrics will be based on increased sales. If said trolls and wankers don't also buy stuff from them, then the sponsors will eventually quit sponsoring. Short term, sheer numbers may help. Long term, I don't think you can predict that.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

JoeFriday
01-25-2006, 08:24
I remember when every one was a new member. It is simple YOU ARE A MEMBER OR YOU ARE NOT. If you registered and you want to post a FS in the classifieds do so. I don't have to read or respond to any post. The date you registered and the number of post you have made are clearly visible.

Now back to the question the restriction of the classifieds to viewing by registered members only. I vote NO.
The forum is thriving because of two things content and traffic. The sponsors list is growing because of traffic and product association. Membership is on the increase because people find the content worth taking the time to register. There are times when guest outnumber members. Go look at the FS post check the number of views and the number of responses they create interest. Your idea was to one day make the site self supporting or maybe even profitable. So why would you want to restrict content and change something that is working?

wow, Gipsy... at the rate you post here, you'll be able to start buying and selling in about 4 more years when your post count gets into double digits ;)

bmattock
01-25-2006, 08:39
A wholehearted NO!
This wonderful place elitist and exclusive? Tsk. What a shame that would be....
I came here - way less than a year ago - with a hunkering for knowledge and inspiration and with the best of intentions. Doesn't the sincere niceness here tend to thwart the chaff before it runs rampant anyhow?
(And Bill can make all the funny noises he wants, but I know that I would not have taken kindly to a years probation. )
Also, since it was mentioned: I think an SLR/TLR forum - a fine one, like this - would be brilliant.

Exclusive and elitist are not dirty words. Inclusive to the extent of letting in all the riffraff is PC, but it is also rather self-selecting for a set of lowered expectations.

As to whether or not you would have "taken kindly" to a year's probation. I have to ask - so what? If I get upset and decide to leave, so what? This place will no more suffer if I leave than it would if you did. There are already all kinds of rules in place here. Jorge doesn't like angry fights about religion (for example). If that bothered me enough, I guess I could say "Well, if you're going to smother my right to freedom of speech, I guess I'll leave." So what? Everyone has to decide for themselves if the rules are too onerous for them to abide - and if not being able to post a for sale ad for a year is such a problem that you just can't bring yourself to stick around - then buh-bye.

Harsh words? You bet. And I'll bet everyone agrees with me in their hearts, although those who must cowtow to a higher PC power will shriek (but they agree with me too). The world knows it - we all want equality, justice, and righteousness - but not in MY neighborhood. This is no different. Our secret shame is that we all want what WE want.

I call it the 'lifeboat theory'. Here's how it goes.

When your ship sinks, and you swim to an empty lifeboat, you're glad to have it. And if you're a decent person, you will then go about trying to rescue others. And everyone will have a grand old time doing the right thing, being inclusive rather than exclusive.

Until the lifeboat reaches capacity. Then things change.

The first people to venture the concern that the lifeboat is getting too full to take on any more survivors will be shouted down. They'll be seen as bad guys, trouble-makers, and just plain evil. Others will shout that if so-and-so is excluded from the lifeboat, then THEY will get out as well in protest.

But the lifeboat will get fuller and fuller, and then it will begin to take on water. There truly is no more room. If more people get in, the lifeboat will sink, and that becomes obvious to everyone.

At that point, those onboad the lifeboat decide that being exclusive and elitist is not so bad after all. If someone has to die, they'd prefer it not be them. Some might take the road of chivalry, but in general, people tend to prefer to survive if they can.

As those who cannot get on the lifeboat become more desperate, they will begin to foment and plot and plan to take over the lifeboat, tip it over and get rid of those evil greedy elitists. And those on board will begin looking around for weapons to defend themselves with.

No, this is not a lifeboat. No, no one is going to drown here. But the fact is this - at some point, EVERYONE will agree - no more unregistered members posting for sale listings. Or limitations on posting (photos, ads, comments, etc). Or whatever restrictive behavior is needed to keep the lifeboat from sinking.

So be PC. Be inclusive and shun the nasty exclusive and elitist people. Someday soon, you'll be one too. Everyone acts in their own perceived best interest in the end.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

lynn
01-25-2006, 09:01
Oh dear. Are we talking Titanic here? I wasn't.
No room at the Inn? Oh dear, again: different allegory.
I hate the first-post-Leica-for-Sale ads too. "Get LOST" (with adjective), I think. But that's what EVERYONE thinks, and the guilty give up.
What I'm saying is: I may be acceptable in a year, but I'm just as acceptable now..as far as I can see.

Warren G
01-25-2006, 09:18
Surely its not the quantity of posts that would count,but the information and experience shared in the postings. How you qualifiy that, I do not know.

Best,

W.

NoTx
01-25-2006, 09:22
Honestly, members only on a classifieds section just makes sense. Keeps security a little higher, you know.

bmattock
01-25-2006, 10:16
This is a simple throw back to pack mentality and feeding order. Later associated with the good old boys club.

The eternal cry of the left back. Consider me not impressed.


I for one resist being reclassified to a second rate statues by anyone.


No one is suggesting you are second class anything. Just a restriction. Joe can lock threads - you can't. Are you second class to him? Why can't we all be sysadmins? Wah! We're not allowed to upload more than a certain amount per day to the gallery. Wah! We have to wait sixty seconds between posts. Wah! We're all second class to Joe! I'm gonna hold my breath.


Why would I ever join anything knowing I would be required to play second fiddle to some pompous ass simply because of seniority.

I'm still looking for the downside here. Should I be sad? Are we being deprived of your wonderful self?

I mean seriously. First of all, no one, including Jorge, is taking my 'one year' suggestion seriously except me - so I doubt it has much chance of happening. Second of all, even if it did, so what? If you're saying that this place would be just terrible if you could do everything you can do now - EXCEPT you could not post FS listings for a year - then what you're actually saying is that's what you really want to do here - that's what is important to you. And the community should value your contribution for what again?

If you want to go, go. My pompous ass will be just fine with it. Hehehehehe.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

bmattock
01-25-2006, 10:21
What I'm saying is: I may be acceptable in a year, but I'm just as acceptable now..as far as I can see.

And what I'm saying is that such a restriction has nothing to do with how acceptable you are. And no one is seriously considering implementing my Master Plan for Everything, as far as I know - so this is just idle chit-chat and philosophical debate. And last but not least - we were not talking about anything except restricting the ability to post FS and WTB listings. Normal posts would be fine to read and create.

Why is a time-based restriction on buying and selling so onerous? Do you burn with secret desire to become a 2nd-hand RF tycoon?

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

rover
01-25-2006, 10:23
... My pompous ass will be just fine.... Hehehehehe.


Your pompous cute ass Bill. ;)

Honestly your suggestion and argument for a time requirement is interesting, but simply doesn't work. At least a year is way too long.

Think of it, RFF has only been in exhistance for 2.5 years. How many members did we have in the first 18 months? I don't know the answer, but if we had 1000 I would be surprised. We now have over 4000. A year's membership requirement will shut out potentially as much as 3/4 of our membership, and in essence kill our marketplace.

NoTx
01-25-2006, 10:24
I do not believe a time limit makes sense... but people shouldn't surf as guests for shopping in my book. It just seems that this opens up possible problems for sellers. Now... I do not know if this has been a problem, and if it hasn't, then I may be way off base.

bmattock
01-25-2006, 10:30
Surely its not the quantity of posts that would count,but the information and experience shared in the postings. How you qualifiy that, I do not know.

Best,

W.

That's part of the reason why I suggested time-based criteria to buy and sell, with a one-year minimum.

In one year, people learn so much from just lurking that they know what scale focusing is - for example. So they tend not to post that eternal question. Or the "is film really dead" question. Or the "what's the best rangefinder" question. So when they do ask a question, it often makes sense to ask, and is often thought provoking and makes an interesting thread.

One year's membership makes you someone who is willing to show up, even if you do nothing else. Tends to weed out the hit-n-gits, because they have no patience. 90% of life is showing up.

Ah well. I'm unfair, I'm a member of the 'good old boy's network', I'm a pompous ass. I'm elitist and exclusionary. I'm good with that.

I submit to the tyranny of the mediocre.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

Stephanie Brim
01-25-2006, 10:32
I think that this is getting blown out of proportion by some people. All this is asking is whether or not it is a good idea to have people log in to the forum before they can view the classifieds. This is not trying to come up with some elitist plan to disallow new members to do anything. Everyone needs to take a step back, take a deep breath, and re-examine the original intent of the post.

Having to be a member before you view classifieds isn't going to be a huge deal, really. You have to be a member before being able to PM the people to ask about the items anyway and there are a *lot* of cases where an email option isn't offered. It isn't going to be that much different. It will bring more new people in (hopefully) and allow all of us (buying and selling alike) just a bit more fraud security. It may or may not also help a bit with those people who register just to buy something and then never talk again. They won't be able to base their membership decision on the classified section anymore, but on the actual posts of the people here. I find this a good thing; the more people we get here with an honest interest in rangefinder photography the better the site will become.

bmattock
01-25-2006, 10:35
Your pompous cute ass Bill. ;)

Honestly your suggestion and argument for a time requirement is interesting, but simply doesn't work. At least a year is way too long.

Think of it, RFF has only been in exhistance for 2.5 years. How many members did we have in the first 18 months? I don't know the answer, but if we had 1000 I would be surprised. We now have over 4000. A year's membership requirement will shut out potentially as much as 3/4 of our membership, and in essence kill our marketplace.

First - shut out 3/4 of our membership from what? Buying and selling. Is that what RFF is all about? I mean, if it is, then great. But I suspect most people come around here for the discussions, not the marketplace. Nobody is suggesting that newbies be shut out from entering into lively debate.

Second - kill our marketplace? What marketplace? Seems like the classfieds are a courtesy that Jorge provides for those who want it here - and is potentially a lot more trouble than it is worth for him (imagining worst-case rip off scenarios complete with wild fang-toothed mall lawyers on a rampage). I'd see it as a massive liability, myself. But that's Jorge's call. I don't recall RFF being a 'marketplace.' From my point of view, so what if it gets killed?

If 1,000 members resigned in disgust because they could not buy or sell for one year - what members would we lose? I suspect those that primarily want to buy and sell. I don't see the downside. Is this just a numbers game?

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

dcsang
01-25-2006, 10:38
I think that this is getting blown out of proportion by some people. All this is asking is whether or not it is a good idea to have people log in to the forum before they can view the classifieds. This is not trying to come up with some elitist plan to disallow new members to do anything. Everyone needs to take a step back, take a deep breath, and re-examine the original intent of the post.


Bingo Steph.

I also belong to a site for "professional" photographers that required me to join up, pay $100 USD, and had such suggested rules as having to wait a year or 6 months before moving from the "newbie" forum to the "pro" forum.

To be honest with ya, it did make me feel a bit like a child at first but I understood why that rule had to be there. That being said, guess where I spend most of my time.. RFF of course :)

Dave

rover
01-25-2006, 10:47
First - shut out 3/4 of our membership from what? Buying and selling. Is that what RFF is all about? I mean, if it is, then great. But I suspect most people come around here for the discussions, not the marketplace. Nobody is suggesting that newbies be shut out from entering into lively debate.

Second - kill our marketplace? What marketplace? Seems like the classfieds are a courtesy that Jorge provides for those who want it here - and is potentially a lot more trouble than it is worth for him (imagining worst-case rip off scenarios complete with wild fang-toothed mall lawyers on a rampage). I'd see it as a massive liability, myself. But that's Jorge's call. I don't recall RFF being a 'marketplace.' From my point of view, so what if it gets killed?

If 1,000 members resigned in disgust because they could not buy or sell for one year - what members would we lose? I suspect those that primarily want to buy and sell. I don't see the downside. Is this just a numbers game?

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks


Yes, I am speaking specifically of the classifieds and not the community in whole. Though, our discussions and posts very often are gear and GAS related, and thus the two, the classifieds and entire community, are intimately connected.

More than anything else, I think a year is much too long. I don't like the idea of any barriers other than membership sign in, but a nominal # of posts is a more palatable suggestion in my eyes.

And what marketplace, well many members buy and sell here seeing this as a safer haven than other places on the internet. Your suggestions will help protect this safe haven no doubt, but by potentially drastically limiting those who can view them, there would be no sense in listing items or to seek for items for sale. A bigger audience leads to more sales and availability of items.

I don't think your intention is to eliminate the classified ads here. If it is then I think that is a different topic. But many of us buy and sell to eachother, that is a marketplace.

bmattock
01-25-2006, 11:03
Yes, I am speaking specifically of the classifieds and not the community in whole. Though, our discussions and posts very often are gear and GAS related, and thus the two, the classifieds and entire community, are intimately connected.

Eh, I could take or leave the classifieds. I realize I'm in the minority here.


More than anything else, I think a year is much too long. I don't like the idea of any barriers other than membership sign in, but a nominal # of posts is a more palatable suggestion in my eyes.

Minimum post requirements lead to numerous 'hello world' posts, any stupid thing just to make the number required so that someone set on selling or buying can then get on with it. Time is time. The lazy and the crooks have no patience. Can't weed 'em all out, but it will do more than a few.


And what marketplace, well many members buy and sell here seeing this as a safer haven than other places on the internet.

A) Mistake number 1. It ain't safer. In fact, there are fewer safeguards in place.

B) Second - crooks love that perception and work it like a big round bootie. Yeah, drop your guard and let me send you this money order from the Bank of Ooga Booga. I'm a fellow member, trust me!


Your suggestions will help protect this safe haven no doubt, but by potentially drastically limiting those who can view them, there would be no sense in listing items or to seek for items for sale.

OK with me. And our 'safe haven' has largely been because we were undiscovered country. Now that we're going gangbusters, watch the fraudsters and the crooks come flooding in. Seriously.


A bigger audience leads to more sales and availability of items.


To what end? Jorge doesn't make a dime on these sales, does he? He provides the free forum, and gets squat from exposing himself to an angry mall lawyer whose client has been bounced around like a bunny.

Who cares if more people buy and sell here? Do those people ALSO contribute to the conversations and the quality of the site? I'd say they're just leeches, taking and not giving, and we'd be well rid of them if that's all they're going to do.


I don't think your intention is to eliminate the classified ads here. If it is then I think that is a different topic. But many of us buy and sell to each other, that is a marketplace.

I guess I don't care enough about the buying and the selling. Fair enough.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

ch1
01-25-2006, 11:17
This the most amazing bunch of lunacy. Almost 90% here want to limit readers of classifieds (i.e. the buyers) to members!

If I am selling something I want the largest number of potential buyers to see my item! Why would I want to limit buying to members only?

If this kind of thing happens - I'll be sure to use eBay or P.Net for selling before here!

READ THE POLL QUESTIONS AGAIN, FOLKS !!!

I'm glad most of you here are not in charge of my business!

rover
01-25-2006, 11:19
I think you mentioned above that you were the only one taking your 1 year requirement seriously. Maybe so, and after all, only Jorge's opinion, or will to act as he did based on this poll, matters. At least he asked and what is done is done, until it changes if it ever does.

Thanks for the debate.

bmattock
01-25-2006, 11:25
I'm glad most of you here are not in charge of my business!

If your business was giving away a buying and selling platform with no way to extract profit from that model, it would not be a very good business. Lots of dot coms finally figured that one out.

If we're talking common sense from Jorge's point of view, it doesn't make much sense to even have a classified ad section, as far as I can see. All I seem to see as an argument for it is "it brings in more people." And is more better, or is more just more?

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

FrankS
01-25-2006, 11:27
I'm thinking that more registered users translates directly into greater advertising revenue for Jorge.

There may even be a formula in place based on number of registered users, to calculate the cost of advertising.

brightsky
01-25-2006, 11:37
I'm thinking that more registered users translates directly into greater advertising revenue for Jorge.

There may even be a formula in place based on number of registered users, to calculate the cost of advertising.


B-I-N-G-O

This is the only plausible reason to institute required registration for viewing.

ch1
01-25-2006, 11:38
Bill,

You seem to be posting at a five to one rate compared to anyone else in this thread. I haven't checked to see if you've begun responding to your own posts, but wouldn't be surprised.

I think we get the message that you feel passionately about this critical issue. (sarcasm intended).

Outta here.

George

c.poulton
01-25-2006, 11:54
if a probationary period (and that's exactly what we're describing) is implemented, here's what will happen to many new members.. they'll come here to learn about RF's.. great idea, we all agree

then they'll decide that whatever they currently own isn't doing it for them (gee, that never happens here, does it?) so they become enamored with a Leica AK47 or Canonelle QL71.. and the old timers here are selling them back and forth to each other just to have something to do during the day.. but the newguy can't buy one because he's the equivalent of a high school freshman

I know my enthusiasm for RFF would die the moment I discovered I wasn't a real member

the only way I see this as working is if the time-limit was fairly short.. perhaps 2 weeks.. maybe combined with a 10 post minimum.. that would stop the instant sellers.. but not be enough to turn off potential contributors

I agree - we don't want to create 2nd class membership.

Is there really such a 'bog' problem with the classifieds - restricting viewing of the classifieds to members will generate new membership, but do we really want these sort of members who are ONLY interested in buying and selling - surely that's what e-bay is for?

You will also find that the membership will increase but that these new members never contribute to any of the forums - they become members only to view the classified threads - perhaps only once and then never visit again. OK the books show the site has so many thousands of members, but how many of these members will regularly read and post contributions?

IMHO

flashover
01-25-2006, 11:54
If it a done deal G'man right let it pass

sf
01-25-2006, 12:06
I agree - we don't want to create 2nd class membership.

Is there really such a 'bog' problem with the classifieds - restricting viewing of the classifieds to members will generate new membership, but do we really want these sort of members who are ONLY interested in buying and selling - surely that's what e-bay is for?

You will also find that the membership will increase but that these new members never contribute to any of the forums - they become members only to view the classified threads - perhaps only once and then never visit again. OK the books show the site has so many thousands of members, but how many of these members will regularly read and post contributions?

IMHO

I like this point. In fact, it really sways me more into no territory. Actually, I always assumed that you'd have to have an account in order to post anything or send PMs. . . I suppose I was wrong about that. But I still think that closing the classifieds might just seal off the process a little more, and help make it more of an RFF tradefloor rather than an open door for resellers, etc.

You know, if this turns out to be a farse, there is no reason it cannot be reversed by vote as easily as it has been enacted.

back alley
01-25-2006, 12:18
g'man is right, the deal is done.

nothing more to see here...

joe