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David Hughes
09-26-2018, 06:53
Hi,

Read about it here:-
https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/289863-m-camera-made-by-zenit/?utm_source=180926de&utm_medium=E-Mail

Regards, David

35photo
09-26-2018, 08:00
Its interesting no question...

https://petapixel.com/2018/09/26/zenit-and-leica-unveil-the-zenit-m-full-frame-rangefinder/

xayraa33
09-26-2018, 08:15
4k to 5k euros in price is not exactly the $ 69.99 of the Zenit E of 1973

ptpdprinter
09-26-2018, 08:29
Anybody care to hazard a guess as to the demographic for a Zenit Leica knockoff at €4-5K (presumably before VAT).

nemjo
09-26-2018, 08:32
Anybody remember the 10 thousand $ Sigma?
And it was Sigma with its heritage.
I still think it to be a joke.

Archlich
09-26-2018, 09:09
4k to 5k euros in price is not exactly the $ 69.99 of the Zenit E of 1973

The price is for the kit bundled with the 35/1 lens. Smart move. Now you'll never know how much the camera alone's gonna cost. How much does a M mount 35/1 cost? If it's a Leica lens then camera's might as well be considered free, isn't it?

Still, congrats to both: Leica gets to clear its 6-year-old inventory and KMZ's comfortable enough to claim all the "designed and made in Russia" as much as they could.

I'm pretty sure the supply will be very limited. These guys are so smart that they know it won't sell much - still, as long as they hit the 100th sale everyone's gonna be happy.

ptpdprinter
09-26-2018, 09:14
From the press release: "The Shvabe Holding, part of Rostec, has presented this product at Photokina 2018, the largest international trade fair for the photographic and imaging industries held in Cologne." I haven't seen any coverage of it yet.

Archlich
09-26-2018, 09:15
Anybody care to hazard a guess as to the demographic for a Zenit Leica knockoff at €4-5K (presumably before VAT).

As ridiculous as it seems, it's real: https://www.dpreview.com/news/9034303849/photokina-2018-hands-on-with-zenit-m

It's not a shoddy knockoff. Genuine M Typ 240 I say, just in a different shell. Didn't even bother to change the Leica font. Very likely shipped directly from Wetzlar half-complete and "assembled" in Russia...

The body and the lens has "Designed and Made in Russia" stamped everywhere in big sharp font. I'm not a Russian demography expert, but the scheme seems geared toward the local middle class endorsed in nationalism.

bayernfan
09-26-2018, 09:18
From the press release: "The Shvabe Holding, part of Rostec, has presented this product at Photokina 2018, the largest international trade fair for the photographic and imaging industries held in Cologne." I haven't seen any coverage of it yet.

it was in the russian manufacturer section, aka room number 462 at the hotel across the street.

Huss
09-26-2018, 09:25
Looks like a Leica M made by Lego.

Bill Blackwell
09-26-2018, 10:15
This (along with the Panasonic/Sigma alliance) is pretty bold of Leica if you ask me.

Chinese companies are pirating Leica’s 6-bit coded M lens mount; isn’t it reasonable to assume their cameras and other mount(s) aren’t far behind? Why not jump in and license lens mounts and cameras and let licensees legitimately rebadge your products? Leica makes money through license agreements, they get to continue their own manufacturing process, and they maintain ownership and control of their intellectual property.

This also reminds me of what IBM did in the 1980s with their computer platform. The arguably better system, Apple/Mac, nearly went under.

mbisc
09-26-2018, 11:16
Rebadged, gold-plated cameras for the Russian oligarchy, perhaps?

Sumarongi
09-26-2018, 12:53
Actually, to my eyes, the body looks much more like a ZEISS IKON :confused:

DougFord
09-26-2018, 13:06
...this thing looks like it was designed and manufactured in Russia. lol

Sumarongi
09-26-2018, 13:16
...this thing looks like it was designed and manufactured in Russia. lol

Hmmmm... did you expect this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Kansas_Cosmosphere_Sputnik_1_2008.jpg

?

AJShepherd
09-26-2018, 14:23
No, wait, did I hibernate through winter and it's now April 1st?

Because a €5000 Zenit version of a Leica M just seems way too ridiculous to be true!

xayraa33
09-26-2018, 14:53
The price is for the kit bundled with the 35/1 lens. Smart move. Now you'll never know how much the camera alone's gonna cost. How much does a M mount 35/1 cost? If it's a Leica lens then camera's might as well be considered free, isn't it?

Still, congrats to both: Leica gets to clear its 6-year-old inventory and KMZ's comfortable enough to claim all the "designed and made in Russia" as much as they could.

I'm pretty sure the supply will be very limited. These guys are so smart that they know it won't sell much - still, as long as they hit the 100th sale everyone's gonna be happy.

I would price the lens it comes with to about 500 to 600 euros, generous enough for rarity when a 7 Artisan 50mm f1.1 in M mount goes for around 400 USD , a lens of about on par in quality with the Russian offering in my guess-timation.

So it it still would be a 3500 to 4500 euro body.

BTW, the 73 Zenit E also came with a lens, the fabulous 58mm f2 Helios 44-2 if you splurged and not got the 50mm f3.5 Industar 50 lens that was more popular in places with an even ridiculously higher duty and tax on imported photo gear than the UK, places like France of the 1970s.

Ko.Fe.
09-26-2018, 16:08
Total run is 500 kits, they say. I think it is very reasonable number for rebadged M240 and odd lend which will never enter mass production.

raid
09-26-2018, 16:40
It may turn into a collector's item one day.

Rob-F
09-26-2018, 18:35
The article says that this was done "in cooperation" between Leica and Krasnogorsky. It doesn't seem credible that Leica would go out of their way to facilitate a competing brand. And who is going to buy it? I could buy a used M240 a lot cheaper.

David Hughes
09-27-2018, 01:15
Hmmm, would 500 digital Zenits hit sales of the digital Leicas? I have my doubts, brands are important to a lot of people.

And we don't know the details, prices paid by KMZ and so on. Then there's those collectors who will buy one and wrap it in cling film unused (I hope they take the battery out first)...

Regards, David

PS Another factor is all those people using an Industar on their digital Leica; although it would make more sense to use a Summicron on a FED or Zorki but who am I to criticise?

reiki_
09-27-2018, 01:17
I want this so bad.

Archlich
09-27-2018, 03:27
I would price the lens it comes with to about 500 to 600 euros, generous enough for rarity when a 7 Artisan 50mm f1.1 in M mount goes for around 400 USD , a lens of about on par in quality with the Russian offering in my guess-timation.

So it it still would be a 3500 to 4500 euro body.

BTW, the 73 Zenit E also came with a lens, the fabulous 58mm f2 Helios 44-2 if you splurged and not got the 50mm f3.5 Industar 50 lens that was more popular in places with an even ridiculously higher duty and tax on imported photo gear than the UK, places like France of the 1970s.

A 35/1 is not a 50/1.1, just like a 35/1.4 is not a 50/1.4; also do not unsee that, the wider a lens goes the harder it will be to make it faster, per the law of diminishing return. As sarcastic I'm intended to be toward this "joint production", I'd say this being hunk of a lens even larger than the Zeiss ZM 35/1.4 (as the way it should be), looks like substantial engineering. And unlike the 7-artisan 50/1.1, it has no known formula to take reference from. It's a challenge accepted (by whom, though?). Even if it's soft wide open (it will be), there simply is no other like it in the M realm. Be realistic: Russian or not, you simply don't get a 35/1 anywhere else, unless you're Stanley Kubrick. Give it the credit where it's due.

The true price of the Zenit M body: Leica used to price the M-E and the Typ 262 a sensible bit more than the going price of the M9 and M240 back then, so the former being new models with factory warranty could compete with the used. Similar here: if the M240 is going for like 2000 euros, then this would be like around 2500, minus the Red Dot tax. This would make selling it alone hardly profitable, so they will stick to the kit idea.

Again, this camera doesn't look like a "cheap Russian copy". It's just a rebadged M240, created in a way similar to Leica rebadging Panasonic cameras. I do believe the thing is made mostly in Wetzlar as well. Give Leica its credit where it's due, if you please.

xayraa33
09-27-2018, 04:02
A 35/1 is not a 50/1.1, just like a 35/1.4 is not a 50/1.4. As sarcastic I'm intended to be toward this "joint production", I'd say this being hunk of a lens even larger than the Zeiss ZM 35/1.4 (as the way it should be), looks like substantial engineering. And unlike the 7-artisan 50/1.1, it has no known formula to take reference from. It's a challenge accepted (by whom, though?). Even if it's soft wide open (it will be), there simply is no other like it in the M realm. Be realistic: Russian or not, for 600 euros you don't get a 35/1 anywhere else. Give it the credit where it's due.

The true price of the Zenit M body: Leica used to price the M-E and the Typ 262 a sensible bit more than the going price of the M9 and M240 back then, so the former being new models with factory warranty could compete with the used. Similar here: if the M240 is going for like 2000 euros, then this would be like around 2500, minus the Red Dot tax. This would make selling it alone hardly profitable, so they will stick to the kit idea.

Again, this doesn't look like a cheap Russian copy. It's just a rebadged M240, created in a way similar to Leica rebadging Panasonic cameras. I do believe the thing is made mostly in Wetzlar as well. Give Leica its credit where it's due, if you please.


I never said a 35mm f 1.2 is the same construction as a 50mm f 1.1 lens, I am comparing it price wise to an other budget brand fast lens to get at the price of the body in a round about way.
And being the owner of many FSU and Russian made lenses, that is all they are, comparable to Chinese brand lenses.. they certainly are not Leica made lenses or Nikkor made lenses or Canon made lenses, they are not in that league.

We don't know if the guts of this Zenit M camera are 100% Leica or 65 % Leica or 0 % Leica, anymore than claiming a Kiev 4AM camera is 100% a Contax II camera, we can only speculate from afar.

Other than being a low production number curio, maybe good for camera collectors, I say this Zenit M is priced too high and not following in the footsteps of its high volume shoddily made namesake of the past.

Archlich
09-27-2018, 04:21
I never said a 35mm f 1.2 is the same construction as a 50mm f 1.1 lens, I am comparing it price wise to an other budget brand fast lens to get at the price of the body in a round about way.
And being the owner of many FSU and Russian made lenses, that is all they are, comparable to Chinese brand lenses.. they certainly are not Leica made lenses or Nikkor made lenses or Canon made lenses, they are not in that league.

We don't know if the guts of this Zenit M camera are 100% Leica or 65 % Leica or 0 % Leica, anymore than claiming a Kiev AM camera is 100% a Contax II camera, we can only speculate from afar.

Other than being a low production number curio, maybe good for camera collectors, I say this Zenit M is priced too high and not following in the footsteps of its high volume shoddily made namesake of the past.

I assume it's common sense that the Russian camera industry, with close to zero experience putting together even a film rangefinder with TTL metering, lack the fundamental capability to build a (highly sophisticated, digital) M240 all by themselves? It's not like you could just reverse engineer it and "adjust and fit" like in the old mechanical days of the Contax II...they'll have to build a full-fledged, Leica-aided factory just for that purpose. If that was the case we'd surely had seen it announced proudly in the news. Did we? In reality the KMZ today is but a shell of its former self. Even the days of it building the plastic Zenit cameras are gone now (the last ones were made in 2005).

The most technologically feasible, economically viable, and commercially sensible thing for them (and Leica) to do was to rebadge an aged Leica body and since it won't be "shoddily made" in that case, charge a quasi-Leica price. I believe they're fully aware what they're doing, since it's all quite understandable this way.

The big question is who this is intended for. The Russian oligarchs already had their genuine Leica custom built, so I assume it will take some first hand insight into contemporary Russian consumer culture to get an idea of the answer.

xayraa33
09-27-2018, 04:43
I assume it's common sense that the Russian camera industry, with close to zero experience putting together even a film rangefinder with TTL metering, lack the fundamental capability to build a (highly sophisticated, digital) M240 all by themselves? It's not like you could just reverse engineer it easily like in the old mechanical days of the Contax II...

The most technologically feasible, economically viable, and commercially sensible thing for them to do was to rebadge an aged Leica body and since it won't be "shoddily made" in that case, charge a quasi-Leica price. It's all quite understandable.

The big question is who this is intended for. The Russian oligarchs already had their Leica custom built, so I assume it will take some first hand insight into contemporary Russian consumer culture to get an idea of the answer.

It is still speculation to assume that this Zenit M is 100 % Leica guts or any lesser percentage Leica guts. They could have had the licenced permission to use the Leica design and Leica proprietary patents and had the electronics and some of the mechanical parts made in China for all we know and final assembly was done at KMZ in Russia.

As Ken Wheeler said once, " Russians are very good at cutting corners in the production of anything" and the guy has claimed to have lived in Russia for a time.

That KW statement makes sense as to on how we ended up with the Kiev 4AM from the well made and pricey Zeiss Contax II camera.

The small production numbers of this camera ensures a market for it to collectors and maybe the high price reflects that, my question is why did they call it a "Zenit " when the "Zorki" name would have been more appropriate for an RF style/type camera ?

DanskDynamit
09-27-2018, 05:33
4k to 5k euros in price is not exactly the $ 69.99 of the Zenit E of 1973
it would be $400 inflation adjusted, but anyways, Zenit is not the same, the camera is made by Leica, Russia is not the same and the market is not the same, so why the price should be?

David Hughes
09-27-2018, 05:44
Cutting corners in the old USSR is what we in the west call improving efficiency and, of course, profits.

I think I'll wait until I've read all the reviews, especially the last ones to appear and then would like to handle the thing. I reckon Leica have been very clever and KMZ will do well out of it.

Regards, David

PS And, with a bit of luck the prices of old Zenits will rise on its back and I'll make a profit on my old ones, perhaps at Christmas...

nukecoke
09-27-2018, 05:51
Hands on:
https://www.techradar.com/reviews/zenith-m

xayraa33
09-27-2018, 06:11
it would be $400 inflation adjusted, but anyways, Zenit is not the same, the camera is made by Leica, Russia is not the same and the market is not the same, so why the price should be?

The camera is made by KMZ and marked as such.

The whole premise of a low production camera tells us it is not meant as a general consumer level camera on par with the Japanese cameras such the Sony A7 series or the new slew of FF mirrorless cameras recently announced and maybe that is why the Zenit M is priced as such.. that KMZ figures that there are people willing to pay that to own such a rarity and conversation piece.

The Zenit M body could be as good or bad as a new 800 dollar Sony A7 body in its ability photographic wise but it would not reflect that in its selling price.

All because it is being sold on a different premise based on nostalgia of a brand name, connections to Leica (to what degree we do not know ) FF and an M mount and an optical RF that is not found on any competitor so far other than Leica.

Scapevision
09-27-2018, 06:16
it's the perfect camera for Ko.Fe :D sentimental value + leica club all in one!

Deklari
09-27-2018, 07:14
The big question is who this is intended for. The Russian oligarchs already had their genuine Leica custom built, so I assume it will take some first hand insight into contemporary Russian consumer culture to get an idea of the answer.

In your conversation all of your forgot what current politics in the Russia now. ;) They want to show to the World what they capable to do everything. This camera can be government "order" (for all Russian manufacture) to develop a product what can bit any "West" product. Those can enplane why they make a small amount, just for report and get support from the government budged

Sumarongi
09-27-2018, 07:21
In your conversation all of your forgot what current politics in the Russia now. ;)

Not at all. See above:
This

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Sputnik_asm.jpg

comes to mind :D

They want to show to the World what they capable to do everything.

Sure, why not? They are, very probably ;)

This camera can be government "order" (for all Russian manufacture) to develop a product what can bit any "West" product. Those can enplane why they make a small amount, just for report and get support from the government budged

*can*, yes, but... see above ;)

Deklari
09-27-2018, 07:28
Not at all. See above:
This

comes to mind :D

Sure, why not? They are, very probably ;)

*can*, yes, but... see above ;)


I just want to say, what in Russian history, what they did not always have a "logical" seance for other. :)

Deklari
09-27-2018, 07:38
from russian news: "Cooperation Zenith and Leica - a unique alliance of many years of experience in manufacturing optics and modern technologies in Russia and Germany. With this project, we are talking for the first time about the release of the well-known all over the world domestic Zenit brand for a new segment of the photographic equipment market," (translate in the Google)

Archlich
09-27-2018, 08:00
https://zenit.camera/

Specs are out. Aside from exterior dimensions, every bit's exactly the same as the M240, even down to the weight (680 grams, no a single gram more or less) and battery capacity (1800 mah).

The lens is 9 elements in 8 groups. No diagram, but it weighs a whopping 740 grams.

In your conversation all of your forgot what current politics in the Russua now. ;) They want to show to the World what they capable to do everything. This camera can be government "order" (for all Russian manufacture) to develop a product what can bit any "West" product. Those can enplane why they make a small amount, just for report and get support from the government budged

So nationalism it is. A new business for Leica: the Chinese maybe very likely be their next customer...

Sumarongi
09-27-2018, 08:00
I just want to say, what in Russian history, what they did not always have a "logical" seance for other. :)

Hence organisations like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_German–Soviet_Friendship

It's a pity that the Germans dissolved this precious organisation. -- It would have helped them a lot the last nearly 3 decades if they would have kept tabs having such an ERASMUS-like programme.

Now, Dr. Kaufmann appears to re-vitalise it, camera-wise at least ;)

xayraa33
09-27-2018, 08:25
Ok, here is Matt Granger's hands on take on this camera.

Apparently it is designed in Krasnogorsk Russia but made by Leica and around 500 pieces of this kit will be for sale.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjX1yurREP0

Stephen G
09-27-2018, 09:58
Maybe they can combine Russian quality with German prices

DanskDynamit
09-27-2018, 10:10
The camera is made by KMZ and marked as such.


no its not, they don't have the technical capabilities making such camera and you know it.
I'm sure many here would be praising this camera if it was called "Argus".

jarski
09-27-2018, 10:12
Leica is clever reusing their previous generation sensor and electronics, inside a new body shell.

wpb
09-27-2018, 10:12
Coming to an Oligarch near you...

xayraa33
09-27-2018, 12:11
no its not, they don't have the technical capabilities making such camera and you know it.
I'm sure many here would be praising this camera if it was called "Argus".

Granger says in his YT video that it was designed at Krasnogorsk Russia and it apparently says that on the back engraving in the video.

That could be that KMZ only designed the body stamping and Leica did the innards, either way it is not a serious contender for us non-collectors amateur photographers, with only 500 made and sold at a not so bargain price.

ptpdprinter
09-27-2018, 12:25
Krasnogorsk Design Team: "Let's make it look like an M240, only clunkier. Best only make 500 of them though because nobody in their right mind is going to want it."

Sumarongi
09-27-2018, 12:44
Ok, here is Matt Granger's hands on take on this camera.

Apparently it is designed in Krasnogorsk Russia but made by Leica and around 500 pieces of this kit will be for sale.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjX1yurREP0

Matt Granger certainly loves the Zenit M, but why does he talk so much about a *Senate M*, and *Senate lenses*? :confused:

:p

santino
09-27-2018, 13:23
They should name it Zorki/Fed M! - the original Leica copies. Zenit associates with Slrs.

Huss
09-27-2018, 13:49
4k to 5k euros in price is not exactly the $ 69.99 of the Zenit E of 1973

Leica M240 is currently being sold new for $6K. The M10 is $7.2K (I think it received the recent price hike as there was demand for it and Leica still has stock of the M240. But did not want to lower it's price..)
So if the new Lenit comes in at $5K with lens, or even $6K with lens, it would be worth it if you care about getting a new M240.

If it comes in at $4K w/ lens that is screaming deal in Leicaland.

Thought - will Leica be handling warranty and service?

Huss
09-27-2018, 13:51
I want this so bad.

Yep. Looks like a digital M5 - the best Leica ever.

Archlich
09-27-2018, 14:02
Come to think about it, Leica has became quite affluent in fabricating different shells for the M Typ 240 throughout the years. The M-P, the Hermès, the M60, the 262, the M-D, the titanium something, to name but a few. So small piece of cake for them to offer a new Russian shell this time.

rbiemer
09-27-2018, 14:04
Shouldn't this thread be in the FSU forum?:)
Couple of things occur to me: isn't the body effectively a "special edition"? Something akin to, for example, the various national M6 cameras of years past?
Secondly, my impression has always been that KMZ was/is primarily an optics company rather than a camera company and that the consumer goods--Zenits and Zorkis and etc were never the primary product.
Perhaps, this is a way to gain a credible entry into the high end lens market?

Rob

xayraa33
09-27-2018, 14:18
Leica M240 is currently being sold new for $6K. The M10 is $7.2K (I think it received the recent price hike as there was demand for it and Leica still has stock of the M240. But did not want to lower it's price..)
So if the new Lenit comes in at $5K with lens, or even $6K with lens, it would be worth it if you care about getting a new M240.

If it comes in at $4K w/ lens that is screaming deal in Leicaland.

Thought - will Leica be handling warranty and service?

I will leave this one, 1 out of 500 for camera collectors, the lens despite being a speed demon did not impress me , bokeh was too harsh and very similar to what I got from my 35mm f2 Mir 24N lens, certainly not my favourite.

We are on the cusp of a whole slew of quality Japanese made FF mirrorless cameras that can be used with M mount lenses including my pre asph 35mm Summilux and Canon 35mm f1.5 lens.

And sub $2000 prices are not too far away once replacement improved models are announced in a years time, heck even the dated Sony A7 can be bought new for less than a grand USD now.

David Hughes
09-28-2018, 01:15
So if the new Lenit...


I wondered about that and thought Zenca sounds better but we ought to have a poll...


Regards, David

leicapixie
09-28-2018, 06:02
I guess my thought is one stolen from another part of forum.
It concerned cameras and lenses.
Leica and a Russian camera!
With vodka it makes sense..:D

kshapero
09-28-2018, 10:10
4k to 5k euros in price is not exactly the $ 69.99 of the Zenit E of 1973

I do not get this. Why would I want a Zenit?

xayraa33
09-28-2018, 11:05
I do not get this. Why would I want a Zenit?

Nostalgia maybe, especially if you cut your teeth on photography outside the USA in the 1970s, in places where photo gear was too expensive and wages very low and all you could afford was a Zenit SLR with its hit or miss quality control.

I have a 1973 KMZ made Zenit E camera, its clunky heavy and slow but it worked.

Bought an other new Zenit E from Kmart Canada in the early 1980s but made by Belomo in the USSR and it would not work right out of the box, the take-up reel was not hooked up to the gearing. Took it back to Kmart and found out that the whole batch was like that, so I got a refund.

Michael Markey
09-28-2018, 11:33
My first camera was a Zenit E … considered pretty fancy back in the `70`s :)

Huss
09-28-2018, 11:41
I do not get this. Why would I want a Zenit?

Because you are actually buying a new limited edition Leica for less than a new Leica M.

ptpdprinter
09-28-2018, 11:51
Because you are actually buying a new limited edition Leica for less than a new Leica M.
Except that it's a Zenit. I'd rather have a used M240.

David Hughes
09-28-2018, 11:54
It sort of completes the circle.

Leica II begats FED then, after the war, FED begats Zorki, then KMZ put a mirror etc on from of the Zorki to make the first Zenit and then finally KMZ and Leica co-operate to produce a digital camera...

Regards, David

Huss
09-28-2018, 12:14
Except that it's a Zenit.

Sure it is.

'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What's Montague? It is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other word would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,
And for that name which is no part of thee
Take all myself.

Roger Hicks
09-28-2018, 12:44
Dear David,

But where are the Periflexes, the Reids...

Cheers,

R.

farlymac
09-28-2018, 21:12
I just wonder if it comes with that hollow sound the Zorki-6 makes.

PF

uhoh7
09-28-2018, 22:16
Leica M240 is currently being sold new for $6K. The M10 is $7.2K (I think it received the recent price hike as there was demand for it and Leica still has stock of the M240. But did not want to lower it's price..)
So if the new Lenit comes in at $5K with lens, or even $6K with lens, it would be worth it if you care about getting a new M240.

If it comes in at $4K w/ lens that is screaming deal in Leicaland.

Thought - will Leica be handling warranty and service?

It would be a good deal........but every M lens profile is stripped out.

kshapero
09-29-2018, 05:32
The article says that this was done "in cooperation" between Leica and Krasnogorsky. It doesn't seem credible that Leica would go out of their way to facilitate a competing brand. And who is going to buy it? I could buy a used M240 a lot cheaper.Yes I was thinking the same thing.

Sumarongi
09-29-2018, 05:52
Dear David,

But where are the Periflexes, the Reids...

Oh, I guess you agree with me, dear David and dear Roger, it's a brand new Ilford Witness and a Steinheil Casca II that we really want! :D

xayraa33
09-29-2018, 07:44
Yes I was thinking the same thing.

I think 500 units will not put a dent in Leica sales as a competing brand.

Leica benefited by clearing a few innards of their M240s from their parts supply bins on shelves and got a nice slice of the selling price for their fitment.

Bonus is that M mount might spur a few Zenit M owners to splurge on a Leica lens or two.

This camera is not a serious contender when compared to the coming onslaught of Mirrorless FF cameras that have been announced and other brands joining the queue for sales of the latest and the greatest.

David Hughes
09-29-2018, 10:08
Dear David,

But where are the Periflexes, the Reids...

Cheers,
R.

Hi,
This is the internet, so I try to keep things simple...

Regards, David

PS Talking of Reid, whatever happened in America where - at one point - they were trying to copy the Leica using the factory's blueprints etc?

bobby_novatron
09-29-2018, 12:25
This strange co-opting of another nation's products is a very common feature of Russian manufacturing IMHO. Think back to the 1970's and 1980's with the USSR buying Italy's complete factory innards of the Fiat 124 to produce the Lada. Growing up in Canada in the 1980's, I recall the Lada was the cheapest new car on the market -- and I remember the plasticky off-gassing of the cheap interior and tractor-like handling.

They're still at it BTW, they bought Chrysler / Fiat's entire assembly line in 2008 to make a re-badged Sebring ... a mediocre car at best:
https://autoweek.com/article/car-news/gaz-volga-siber-russias-very-own-sebring

Now with this new Russian "Leicaski", if only it came with a good old Jupiter-8 ... and an authentic smell of industrial grease. :)

DougFord
09-29-2018, 12:47
...and they throw in a free bottle of *"Terminator Vodka" with every purchase.

* Years ago, whilst visiting Russia, a friend spotted a bottle of vodka with a pic of Arnold as the Terminator on the label.

santino
09-29-2018, 12:57
This strange co-opting of another nation's products is a very common feature of Russian manufacturing IMHO. Think back to the 1970's and 1980's with the USSR buying Italy's complete factory innards of the Fiat 124 to produce the Lada. Growing up in Canada in the 1980's, I recall the Lada was the cheapest new car on the market -- and I remember the plasticky off-gassing of the cheap interior and tractor-like handling.

They're still at it BTW, they bought Chrysler / Fiat's entire assembly line in 2008 to make a re-badged Sebring ... a mediocre car at best:
https://autoweek.com/article/car-news/gaz-volga-siber-russias-very-own-sebring

Now with this new Russian "Leicaski", if only it came with a good old Jupiter-8 ... and an authentic smell of industrial grease. :)

It's pretty common nowadays that different car manufacturers share their models with slightly modified design...
The Chevrolet Impala is called Opel Insignia in Europe and Vauxhall in England. Nissan and Renault cooperate. Mazda and Ford. Ford and Volvo etc.
I wish a Volvo was still a pure Volvo but it isn't...
The Soviets were ahead of its time ;)
Btw the coolest vodka I've ever saw was double Kalashnikov.

maggieo
09-29-2018, 14:08
You read that right. Zenit and Lecia are in partnership and have build a digital RF M-mount camera together:


The Russian camera brand Zenit has announced a new full-frame “mirrorless” camera. Called the Zenit M, it’s a rangefinder based on the Leica M (Type 240) (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/893170-USA/Leica_10770_M_Digital_Camera_Black.html/BI/19083/KBID/10687) created in collaboration with Leica.

Krasnogorsky Zavod, which manufactures Zenit-brand gear under the ownership of Shvabe Holding (http://www.shvabe.com/), announced back in 2016 (https://petapixel.com/2016/02/12/russian-zenit-camera-coming-back-battle-leica-luxury/) that it would be bringing the Zenit brand back from the dead to battle Leica in luxury. In 2017, the company revealed it would be launching a full frame mirrorless camera in 2018 (https://petapixel.com/2017/08/21/zenit-launch-full-frame-mirrorless-camera-2018/) with a “leading photographic equipment company.” That company is Leica.
Zenit says it made both hardware and software modifications to the Leica M (Type 240) in creating the Zenit M, so it isn’t simply a cosmetic rebadge (though, the look of the Zenit M is inspired by famous Zenit and Zorky cameras).
https://petapixel.com/assets/uploads/2018/09/camerainhand-1.jpg
The camera comes with a Zenitar 35mm f/1 lens that’s 100% designed and manufactured in Russia.
“The lens creates an image that doesn’t require processing, has unique bokeh and soft focus effect,” the company says.
While other features and specs of the Zenit M have yet to be revealed, most of the important ones are presumably similar or identical to the Leica M (Type 240), which features a 24MP full-frame CMOS sensor, a 3-inch 920k-dot LCD screen, 1080p video recording, live view focusing, a 0.68x viewfinder, ISO 6400, and 3fps continuous shooting.


No word if it will be available in the US, nor the price.

Pretty interesting, though!

Steve M.
09-29-2018, 14:24
Designed in Russia, made in Germany. A strange beast indeed. I don't shoot Leicas anymore because I prefer SLRs, and I don't shoot Zenits because, well, they're Zenits. For others, here's a tiny review.

https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/reviews/hands-on-review-leica-and-zenits-full-frame-zenit-m

David Hughes
09-29-2018, 15:25
"Btw the coolest vodka I've ever saw was double Kalashnikov."

And it (the original Kalashnikov) was designed in 1945 if I remember correctly and ought to prove to many that the USSR had more than its fair share of designers and engineers...

Regards, David

xayraa33
09-29-2018, 16:12
My first camera was a Zenit E … considered pretty fancy back in the `70`s :)

In the UK T.O.E was the agent that handled the importation of USSR made photo gear and they seemed to get a better quality product and or they double checked and repaired any iffy gear before it went for sale at UK camera shops.

Some of the best Zorki 4K cameras came from the UK via Ebay, from anywhere else they were not so good or anything to rely on, even for short term use.

maggieo
09-29-2018, 18:01
Looks like a Leica M made by Lego.

I'd actually buy one of those!

charjohncarter
09-29-2018, 18:03
I hope the quality control is better than my Zenitar 16mm lens.

The lens is fine; I always use it like something will fall off.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4513/23882311648_7dcc16100f_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Cop6cW)TriX HC-110h (https://flic.kr/p/Cop6cW) by John Carter (https://www.flickr.com/photos/carter3john/), on Flickr

maggieo
09-29-2018, 18:11
The innards are LeicaM240; probably Leica selling off 500 of the last-gen innards, I'd guess.

GarageBoy
10-22-2018, 07:02
Is this any worse than those Sony hasselblads?

Steve M.
10-22-2018, 08:16
In other news, Motel 6 and the Hilton have announced a joint hotel venture called the MoTon 2. Rumors have it they will be located between Ruths Chris steakhouses and Jack in the Box restaurants in select cities.

Ynp
11-02-2018, 15:47
The Zenit-M is lacking the Leica lens profiles, there is no EVF port and the live view works only on the rear screen.

Yevgeny.
Moscow

valdas
07-30-2019, 03:30
Hi all,
Today I received an email from this company (zenit photo)saying they have the camera and lens and it’s waiting for my order (I pre-ordered this without a serious thought as to how to proceed in case they really bring it to the market). Any thoughts about it or any intentions from other RF members to buy it? The price is very high - 6500€ (for the combo, camera and 35/1.0 lens) equivalent if converted from roubles at the existing rate.

retinax
07-30-2019, 04:15
Hi all,
Today I received an email from this company (zenit photo)saying they have the camera and lens and it’s waiting for my order (I pre-ordered this without a serious thought as to how to proceed in case they really bring it to the market). Any thoughts about it or any intentions from other RF members to buy it? The price is very high - 6500€ equivalent if converted from roubles at the existing rate.

I like its look, but see no other reason to buy it instead of an M10, which is the better camera, if you want to spend that kind of money.

Dirk
07-30-2019, 09:12
After my initial shock of incredulity wore off, I realized that it made perfect sense from a marketing standpoint. Leica can offer a cheaper version of their camera(s) and sell more lenses without cheapening their own brand. That would make sense if the Zenit were significantly less expensive. However, after I saw the MSRP of the Zenith, I'm back to incredulity.

benlees
07-30-2019, 09:32
Price is hilarious. At least you save on black tape...


Due to its brand strength I'm sure it will hold its value on the used market.:angel:


Surely, this is for rabid M collectors only.

Huss
07-30-2019, 09:56
Hi all,
Today I received an email from this company (zenit photo)saying they have the camera and lens and it’s waiting for my order (I pre-ordered this without a serious thought as to how to proceed in case they really bring it to the market). Any thoughts about it or any intentions from other RF members to buy it? The price is very high - 6500€ (for the combo, camera and 35/1.0 lens) equivalent if converted from roubles at the existing rate.

A brand new Leica M-E 240 is $4000. Is that 35 1.0 lens worth about $2700?

valdas
07-30-2019, 10:01
Price is hilarious. At least you save on black tape...


Due to its brand strength I'm sure it will hold its value on the used market.:angel:


Surely, this is for rabid M collectors only.

My thoughts exactly, I did not think of purchasing, but just interested to hear opinions - who they think they will sell to? I only know two guys (both are running Kremlin for the moment).