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HHPhoto
09-25-2018, 03:45
Hi,

currently there is a press conference going on held by Leica, Panasonic and Sigma.
It is official now: These three companies have formed an alliance using the Leica L-mount.
So in future there will be also Panasonic and Sigma cameras / lenses with the Leica L-mount.

https://www.photoscala.de/2018/09/25/leica-stellt-s3-vor-und-verkuendet-l-mount-alliance/

And Leica introduces a new Leica S3.

Cheers, Jan

Archlich
09-25-2018, 04:19
An updated SL and a high resolution SL. With better ergonomics, (likely) lower price and full lens compatibility to go.

But Leica users will buy Leica anyway...

I wonder if they're gonna use the Leica or the Panasonic TTL flash protocol, or maybe both?

jarski
09-25-2018, 04:23
full frame Foveon using L-mount, easily adapted for M-glass. anyone interested? (besides me :D )

narsuitus
09-25-2018, 05:11
What is an "L" mount?

Calzone
09-25-2018, 05:15
What is an "L" mount?

"L-Mount" is a Leica developed lens mount first developed for the Leica TL series that was adopted for use on the SL and later CL.

This new lens mount has a larger diameter than a M-mount and is less constricting as far as lens design.

Cal

ptpdprinter
09-25-2018, 05:15
What is an "L" mount?
It is the lens mount Leica uses for the TL, CL and SL cameras, and now the mount Panasonic uses for the S1 and S1R FF cameras.

DanskDynamit
09-25-2018, 05:16
What is an "L" mount?


https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51AXHhL46OL._SX425_.jpg

leicapixie
09-25-2018, 05:29
The need for LARGER mounts results in Beluga sized lenses!
Not better, just supersized like McD fries..pop etc.
The beauty of Leica was small beautiful lenses, still unmatched!
Some lenses I did not like are still way better than modern harsh over sharpened.
The era of 39mm filters, meant small size.
The phone has replaced a camera for millions of folk.
The camera companies retaliate with super size..
Zeiss SLR had wonderful large lenses, the company made its own grave..
My Leica M will outlast me, so upping in size a no-boner.

kshapero
09-25-2018, 05:41
Add this to the mix:

https://www.thephoblographer.com/2018/09/25/the-panasonic-s1r-and-the-panasonic-s1-are-their-first-full-frame-mirrorless-cameras/

Calzone
09-25-2018, 05:41
The need for LARGER mounts results in Beluga sized lenses!
Not better, just supersized like McD fries..pop etc.
The beauty of Leica was small beautiful lenses, still unmatched!
Some lenses I did not like are still way better than modern harsh over
The era of 39mm filters, meant small size.


LP,

I mount Leica M-mount lenses on my SL that has a "L" mount, no problem.

The larger mount allows mounting "M," "R," and even "S" glass.

The key idea here is "less constriction" and more freedom in lens design.

BTW I have seen what "S" glass mounted on a SL can do. It crushes M-Glass. More dynamic range. Does not resemble small format at all. Really great skin tones and more detail.

Cal

jarski
09-25-2018, 06:13
would be nice if remaining makers, Olympus and Ricoh/Pentax would join the L-mount alliance as well. no more new mounts thank you :)

DominikDUK
09-25-2018, 06:59
LP,

I mount Leica M-mount lenses on my SL that has a "L" mount, no problem.

The larger mount allows mounting "M," "R," and even "S" glass.

The key idea here is "less constriction" and more freedom in lens design.

BTW I have seen what "S" glass mounted on a SL can do. It crushes M-Glass. More dynamic range. Does not resemble small format at all. Really great skin tones and more detail.

Cal

I don't see how the lens is responsible for the camera's dynamic range, I am pretty sure that the Leica lenses for L are very very good and superior to the M Lenses on the SL Body, they were after all designed for the camera whereas most M-Lenses were designed for film bodies. It would be interesting to see results from the L lenses on other cameras especially film.

TennesseJones
09-25-2018, 07:04
I must be mistaken but is Leica's major announcement a Lens Mount that they already make?

Scapevision
09-25-2018, 07:11
I must be mistaken but is Leica's major announcement a Lens Mount that they already make?

isn't it Panasonic's announcement of new cameras that use the Leica mount they already make.

Calzone
09-25-2018, 08:03
I don't see how the lens is responsible for the camera's dynamic range, I am pretty sure that the Leica lenses for L are very very good and superior to the M Lenses on the SL Body, they were after all designed for the camera whereas most M-Lenses were designed for film bodies. It would be interesting to see results from the L lenses on other cameras especially film.

D,

I too was a skeptic, so I went to the Leica Store in SoHo. They had John Kreider the Leica "S" and SL Technical specialist on hand, and set up the rear of the store as a studio. I was the model.

It seemed like a rather moot exercise, but even without a calibrated monitor in a dimmed room the zoom in on a tethered laptop displayed mucho more shadow detail. Anyways this was where the enhanced dynamic range was clearly evident.

Using "S" glass on a SL seemed to me to be a very unpractical thing to do, but if I was a studio shooter who owned a Leica "S" system and had the glass...

BTW the rendering was mucho smooth. The lens utilized was a 100/2.0.

I owned a 50 Lux-M ASPH and traded it away. It seems the SL favors "R" glass and the rendering is to die for. Also I mount my 58/1.2 Noct-Nikkor on the SL which is really amazing. For a straight MF 50 I use a 50 Lux-R "E60" the last version 50 Lux that pretty much renders a lot like a Noctilux as far as the bokeh and OOF.

BTW I use the Noct-Nikkor on a Leica CL. With the crop factor the 58/1.2 becomes an insane 87/1.2. The Noct-Nikkor exploits the sweet spot of the lens and even at F1.2 any defect is cropped and is outside the perimeter of the sensor. Like in the Leica "S" glass demonstration the IQ takes a rather big step towards medium format IQ. I have the prints to prove it.

My 50 Lux-SL is not only big, but it is also the only native fast prime offered by Leica that is not APO. For the SL Leica will, eventually..., be making even all their SL Crons APO. These APO lenses also include wides: 35 Cron, 28 Cron, 24 Cron, 21 Cron.

I know it may be a long wait but it does seem like perfection will become available one day... eventually. These lenses will unlikely will be small like M-glass. In comparison APO glass for M's is very limited. I would expect performance to be in the realm of the Leica "S" glass demonstration, or like when I sweet spot a lens on my CL.

All this IQ likely does not matter to most people because they don't print, and if they do print it is of modest size or small.

Cal

Calzone
09-25-2018, 08:11
I must be mistaken but is Leica's major announcement a Lens Mount that they already make?

T,

Partly. Another element is the collaboration between these companies, which also is not new news. Some of the native Leica CL lenses are not made in Germany, and are clearly marked "Made In Japan." Panasonic and Leica have collaborated before.

What is suggested is creating a standard and sharing of research and development between these three entities. Pretty much they move together.

Perhaps not news, but buzz.

Cal

aizan
09-25-2018, 08:59
panasonic chose a great set of initial lenses. going from 24-70mm to 24-105mm is so sensible.

the bodies will have IBIS and dual card slots. just watch everyone not get excited at how they didn’t screw things up.

Calzone
09-25-2018, 09:13
panasonic chose a great set of initial lenses. going from 24-70mm to 24-105mm is so sensible.

the bodies will have IBIS and dual card slots. just watch everyone not get excited at how they didn’t screw things up.

A,

My SL has dual card slots. Mucho good.

Also in camera IBIS is a very-very big deal.

Two years ago Leica lent me a 24-90 SL zoom to cover NYC Fashion Week. This zoom has a claimed 3 stops worth of IS, and IS built into the lens is optimimal over in camera IS.

So on night I was walking around in a darker part of NYC called the Bowelry just blasting away and goofing around doing what I would call "Circus Shots."

When I went home and downloaded I was really amazed because I was shooting at 400 ISO and some of the shutter speeds were 1/13th second at 65mm zoomed out, so the tack sharp images on my EIZO really floored me.

Who would think that a slow zoom lens would be great for night shooting. I was amazed.

Cal

xayraa33
09-25-2018, 09:36
From this hazy angle it looks spec wise that Panasonic has done a better job for a first FF Mirrorless camera entry than Canon and Nikon did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH5E7z7oWic

AAlfano
09-25-2018, 09:49
Leica has five f/2 primes on its L-mount lens roadmap. (21, 24, 28, 35, and 50). If these are reasonably sized, I will be a lot more interested in the L-mount system.



I have no idea why anybody would want a 50mm prime that has 15 elements, weighs two pounds, and takes a 77mm filter. Why? So it has perfect sharpness in the corners at f/1.4? Who cares—nothing is in focus in the corners at f/1.4 anyway!

aizan
09-25-2018, 10:19
astrophotographers would disagree.

plus, i take photos on my commute (i call it “street” photography), and at night i’m at f1.4, 1/60, and iso 3200 with a 50mm.

Calzone
09-25-2018, 10:25
Leica has five f/2 primes on its L-mount lens roadmap. (21, 24, 28, 35, and 50). If these are reasonably sized, I will be a lot more interested in the L-mount system.



I have no idea why anybody would want a 50mm prime that has 15 elements, weighs two pounds, and takes a 77mm filter. Why? So it has perfect sharpness in the corners at f/1.4? Who cares—nothing is in focus in the corners at f/1.4 anyway!

AA,

My 50 Lux-SL uses an 82mm filter. I understand if people are put-off or offended by the size. No doubt that it is beyond big; it is huge.

What goes unspoken though by critics is that the rendering is beautiful, the balance between sharpness and softness is just right, and the bokeh is kinda wonderful.

As a gauge of where I'm coming from I also highly regard my Noct-Nikkor for its center sharpness, my 50 Rigid for its center sharpness, but my 50 Lux-R "E60" and 50 Lux-SL for across the frame. Understand that the Noct-Nikkor is more "dreamy."

A while back I owned a 35 Lux-R (the latest version) This lens at F1.4 was kinda "dreamy." I kinda mention this because this lens used a E67 filter size and although a 35mm lens was the same weight and size as a 75 Lux-M.

The future 35 Cron-SL will be E67 and is the same size as the currently available 75 Cron-SL. The 50 Cron will also be the same size filter and body size. I would not say that they are compact or small or lightweight. It does seem that all these new APO Crons will physically be all the same size and will be E67. Kinda modular as far as size.

For me the M-glass on the SL seems small and undersized, and the SLR glass (Nikon and Leica) balance best and feel right as far as ergonomics.

There still are good reasons to love M-bodies for compact size and low weight.

Cal

CameraQuest
09-25-2018, 10:32
Panasonic seems to be going Sony Alpha hunting full bore

https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/25/17897454/panasonic-full-frame-mirrorless-camera-photokina-2018

AAlfano
09-25-2018, 11:43
AA,

My 50 Lux-SL uses an 82mm filter. I understand if people are put-off or offended by the size. No doubt that it is beyond big; it is huge.

What goes unspoken though by critics is that the rendering is beautiful, the balance between sharpness and softness is just right, and the bokeh is kinda wonderful.

As a gauge of where I'm coming from I also highly regard my Noct-Nikkor for its center sharpness, my 50 Rigid for its center sharpness, but my 50 Lux-R "E60" and 50 Lux-SL for across the frame. Understand that the Noct-Nikkor is more "dreamy."

A while back I owned a 35 Lux-R (the latest version) This lens at F1.4 was kinda "dreamy." I kinda mention this because this lens used a E67 filter size and although a 35mm lens was the same weight and size as a 75 Lux-M.

The future 35 Cron-SL will be E67 and is the same size as the currently available 75 Cron-SL. The 50 Cron will also be the same size filter and body size. I would not say that they are compact or small or lightweight. It does seem that all these new APO Crons will physically be all the same size and will be E67. Kinda modular as far as size.

For me the M-glass on the SL seems small and undersized, and the SLR glass (Nikon and Leica) balance best and feel right as far as ergonomics.

There still are good reasons to love M-bodies for compact size and low weight.

Cal


Thanks for the reply. I guess I shouldn't have said that I have no idea why anyone would a jumbo-sized 50mm prime—I do understand all of the the factors you described. I'm just a bit frustrated that all of the manufacturers are making their new fast 50s gigantic, leaving anyone in search of a reasonable sized lens out in the cold (or spending fifteen grand for an M10 and a 50mm APO Summicron ASPH).



Frankly the size of all the new full frame mirrorless lenses is making the Fuji X and Micro 4/3 systems a lot more appealing to me.

TennesseJones
09-25-2018, 12:32
Thanks Cal! Interesting.

So the Panasonic body is a new Leica SL in essence, but Panasonic and Sigma will also make native lenses for it?

So if you have an investment in Leica SL lenses you’ve had a good day. If not it’s still essentially considering buying into a new system.

Trying to work out what’s more enticing versus the Nikon Z cameras, which seem to me very good. And if you have Nikon lenses etc etc...


T,

Partly. Another element is the collaboration between these companies, which also is not new news. Some of the native Leica CL lenses are not made in Germany, and are clearly marked "Made In Japan." Panasonic and Leica have collaborated before.

What is suggested is creating a standard and sharing of research and development between these three entities. Pretty much they move together.

Perhaps not news, but buzz.

Cal

Calzone
09-25-2018, 13:03
Thanks for the reply. I guess I shouldn't have said that I have no idea why anyone would a jumbo-sized 50mm prime—I do understand all of the the factors you described. I'm just a bit frustrated that all of the manufacturers are making their new fast 50s gigantic, leaving anyone in search of a reasonable sized lens out in the cold (or spending fifteen grand for an M10 and a 50mm APO Summicron ASPH).



Frankly the size of all the new full frame mirrorless lenses is making the Fuji X and Micro 4/3 systems a lot more appealing to me.

AA,

Your frustration is also well noted, respected and acknowledged. I understand fully.

I'm fortunate enough that my almost 6 year old Monochrom with replaced sensor and overhaul is still a great camera for me.

A M10 and 50 Cron APO surely is a crazy rig. Also crazy expensive.

Not to give you GAS, but if bought for the long-long term, like I bought my Monochrom, it is cost feasible to buy the M10 and 50 Cron.

Pretty much it is not so crazy when framed as a good camera to keep more than a decade. Others might think you crazy, but I wouldn't.

Cal

AAlfano
09-25-2018, 13:15
AA,

Your frustration is also well noted, respected and acknowledged. I understand fully.

I'm fortunate enough that my almost 6 year old Monochrom with replaced sensor and overhaul is still a great camera for me.

A M10 and 50 Cron APO surely is a crazy rig. Also crazy expensive.

Not to give you GAS, but if bought for the long-long term, like I bought my Monochrom, it is cost feasible to buy the M10 and 50 Cron.

Pretty much it is not so crazy when framed as a good camera to keep more than a decade. Others might think you crazy, but I wouldn't.

Cal


I appreciate that Cal. Unfortunately, it's my wife I'd have to convince.

Calzone
09-25-2018, 13:23
Thanks Cal! Interesting.

So the Panasonic body is a new Leica SL in essence, but Panasonic and Sigma will also make native lenses for it?

So if you have an investment in Leica SL lenses you’ve had a good day. If not it’s still essentially considering buying into a new system.

Trying to work out what’s more enticing versus the Nikon Z cameras, which seem to me very good. And if you have Nikon lenses etc etc...

T,

This just opens up many possibilities, and also makes for different price points.

Who would think that a Noct-Nikkor mounted on a Leica CL would be such a crazy rig (87mm F1.2) and easy to focus due to pure magnification.

Although crazy looking my 50 Lux-SL becomes a 75 Lux with AF.

Pretty much like you gleened I'm just recycling what I already own.

Interesting to note that Panasonic weather proofed their S and S1 cameras. That with the dual card slots indicate that this camera is rather serious.

Dual IS will be a game changer. Really why do you need high ISO anymore? How many F-stops do you need when your camera effectively has a gyroscope? Pretty much the same technology the Navy SEALS used to rescued that American Captain from Somalie Pirates in the Indian Ocean. Understand that my SL has no IS in the camera body. The in lens IS on the longer Leica zooms 24-90 and longer works to gain 3 F-stops. How much more with additional in body?

So far Leica in this game of leakage is a bit quiet. What will Leica be offering in the new SL?

I'm working on a campaign currently that will raise the cash for a new SL2, so I hope to have the money in the bank to pre-order at a dealer.

Cal

dourbalistar
09-25-2018, 13:27
What is an "L" mount?

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51AXHhL46OL._SX425_.jpg

Also Spanish for "The Mount". :D

https://media.giphy.com/media/Tm7mttuHVNRHq/giphy.gif

drewbarb
09-25-2018, 13:54
full frame Foveon using L-mount, easily adapted for M-glass. anyone interested? (besides me :D )

Looks like you're going to get it.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/4798649806/sigma-to-take-foveon-full-frame-and-move-to-l-mount

jarski
09-26-2018, 02:33
Looks like you're going to get it.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/4798649806/sigma-to-take-foveon-full-frame-and-move-to-l-mount

just noticed this as well. cool times :)

am curious what will happen to IR-filter arrangement of older SD cameras. new L-mount may not provide enough depth for it (?)

Range-rover
09-26-2018, 05:32
T,

This just opens up many possibilities, and also makes for different price points.

Who would think that a Noct-Nikkor mounted on a Leica CL would be such a crazy rig (87mm F1.2) and easy to focus due to pure magnification.

Although crazy looking my 50 Lux-SL becomes a 75 Lux with AF.

Pretty much like you gleened I'm just recycling what I already own.

Interesting to note that Panasonic weather proofed their S and S1 cameras. That with the dual card slots indicate that this camera is rather serious.

Dual IS will be a game changer. Really why do you need high ISO anymore? How many F-stops do you need when your camera effectively has a gyroscope? Pretty much the same technology the Navy SEALS used to rescued that American Captain from Somalie Pirates in the Indian Ocean. Understand that my SL has no IS in the camera body. The in lens IS on the longer Leica zooms 24-90 and longer works to gain 3 F-stops. How much more with additional in body?

So far Leica in this game of leakage is a bit quiet. What will Leica be offering in the new SL?

I'm working on a campaign currently that will raise the cash for a new SL2, so I hope to have the money in the bank to pre-order at a dealer.

Cal

The new Lumix camera's look good, everybody seems to be going mirrorless crazy now, and with the new Fuji and the Fuji with 100 megapixels
coming soon it looks good.

Calzone
09-26-2018, 05:50
The new Lumix camera's look good, everybody seems to be going mirrorless crazy now, and with the new Fuji and the Fuji with 100 megapixels
coming soon it looks good.

Bob,

I still have those prints I made for you. Let me know when you can make it to a NYC Meet-Up. Since October is PhotoPlusExpo we can likely hook up in November.

For those lurking I used the Noct-Nikkor and 50 Lux on a Leica CL. With the crop factor the Noct-Nikkor became a 87/1.2 and the 50 Lux effectively became a 75 Lux. Bob has a lot of character in his face and is a lanky tall guy, but these were tight head and shoulder shots taken with the lens wide open.

The prints were made using Piezography Pro where the splitone is blended in the printhead.

It is really unbelievable the technology available to us today. I have digital negative capabilities without having to change inksets. I basically could contact print a digital negative to print limited editions. Pretty much I could do a Salgado without the best lab in Paris if I had the studio space.

Leica Rumors just sent me a new Leica SL lens roadmap that extends into 2019 and 2020.

Cal

leicapixie
09-26-2018, 06:15
I guess a lot here do NOT know that a lens cannot do all the wonders and blunders as regards the dynamic range!
A lens can be contrasty (Nikon) and very sharp(Leica).
It can be adjusted by use of optical glass to have both.
More elements correct faults but use up light, no matter how excellent transmission of light is...
Using huge diameter lenses in order to have "wide apertures" is bad design and poor quality control..
What you are all seeing in the Sensor of S cameras is a "Program" specifically for Leica lenses.
No program one day, sherbet results..
While all here applaud BIG is Better, nobody comments on Elephant in room, the magnificent i-Phones.
I don't own one but realty please..
Pulling suitcases of gear is a silly way to be a photographer unless there is money in hand at end of being a porter..

jarski
09-26-2018, 06:44
...Elephant in room, the magnificent i-Phones.
I don't own one but realty please..


Since the topic is L-mount alliance, I don’t feel obligated of talking about iPhones.

Calzone
09-26-2018, 07:48
I guess a lot here do NOT know that a lens cannot do all the wonders and blunders as regards the dynamic range!
A lens can be contrasty (Nikon) and very sharp(Leica).
It can be adjusted by use of optical glass to have both.
More elements correct faults but use up light, no matter how excellent transmission of light is...
Using huge diameter lenses in order to have "wide apertures" is bad design and poor quality control..
What you are all seeing in the Sensor of S cameras is a "Program" specifically for Leica lenses.
No program one day, sherbet results..
While all here applaud BIG is Better, nobody comments on Elephant in room, the magnificent i-Phones.
I don't own one but realty please..
Pulling suitcases of gear is a silly way to be a photographer unless there is money in hand at end of being a porter..

LP,

Let's not esculate to exaggeration and be practical. I am known to likely be the only person who carries a 7 1/2 pound rigged baby Linhof Tech IV around NYC. I don't carry suitcases full of gear like you suggest. LOL. I say with every Linhof sold comes with a "free gym membership" and at age 60 I look remarkably young, lean and muscular.

As far as lenses being overcorrected like you suggest and about transmission losses, current technology is now at a point where the losses you suggest are no longer valid and getting really close to perfection is nearly attainable.

The reason why the increase in shadow detail and thus the increase of the dynamic range of the "S" glass demonstration I cited was due to ulilizing and exploiting the "sweet spot" of a lens made for a larger format used on a smaller format camera. Doing this clearly demonstrates the level of perfection I mention above.

It is my belief that moving forward lens designers are trying to break out of some of the thinking you support, and don't want to be constrained by size and weight limits anymore.

"Using huge diameter lenses in order to have wide apertures is bad design and poor quality control," you state but I think you forgot about the laws of physics... There is a good reason why a 50 Lux-M ASPH is E46 and 50 Cron-M's are E39: the laws of physics; not bad design; nor bad quality control.

You may not like the fact that physics are involved, and that size and weight constraints are just that: constraints.

Cal

Archlich
09-26-2018, 07:51
https://imgpile.com/images/njqyku.jpg

So it is of the SL size and (possibly) weight. 850 grams class, gigantic mirrorless.

ptpdprinter
09-26-2018, 08:03
So it is of the SL size and (possibly) weight. 850 grams class, gigantic mirrorless.
It does look significantly larger to the Sony in that image. Not sure that's a plus.

Larry H-L
09-26-2018, 10:31
I think it is clear that mirrorless is evolving from small and light in weight to larger and heavier to serve the needs of the professional market.

If Leica, Panasonic, Sigma and others want to compete for serious amateurs and professionals, they have to make cameras with pro features…. fast glass for photojournalists, big buffers and adequate size to handle comfortably with large lenses for sports shooters, fast tethering ports for studio shooters, and serious image stabilization and heat-sinking abilities for videographers. We’ll probably see 6K or 8K video in a year or two.

These cameras are not meant to replace small M-style rangefinder cameras, they will serve different markets.

Compare the size of the new S1R to a Nikon D850, I’ll guess that the Lumix is slightly smaller and it is lighter as the Nikon tops 1000 grams.

The casual amateur market is drying up because phones have replaced small cameras, so we’ll see more companies competing for the higher-end market.

I do feel that the camera companies will also continue to produce high-quality small cameras for the foreseeable future. Hopefully, some of the new features will start showing up later in the smaller camera bodies.

Calzone
09-26-2018, 11:11
I think it is clear that mirrorless is evolving from small and light in weight to larger and heavier to serve the needs of the professional market.

If Leica, Panasonic, Sigma and others want to compete for serious amateurs and professionals, they have to make cameras with pro features…. fast glass for photojournalists, big buffers and adequate size to handle comfortably with large lenses for sports shooters, fast tethering ports for studio shooters, and serious image stabilization and heat-sinking abilities for videographers. We’ll probably see 6K or 8K video in a year or two.

These cameras are not meant to replace small M-style rangefinder cameras, they will serve different markets.

Compare the size of the new S1R to a Nikon D850, I’ll guess that the Lumix is slightly smaller and it is lighter as the Nikon tops 1000 grams.

The casual amateur market is drying up because phones have replaced small cameras, so we’ll see more companies competing for the higher-end market.

I do feel that the camera companies will also continue to produce high-quality small cameras for the foreseeable future. Hopefully, some of the new features will start showing up later in the smaller camera bodies.

Larry,

What you write is very thoughtful and sensible. I pretty much agree with all your points. Some great insights here.

Cal