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muser53
08-20-2018, 08:31
https://leicarumors.com/

traveler_101
08-20-2018, 08:48
$7995 -
"Same sensor, processor, LCD (Gorilla Glass), ISO, connections, frame selector, buffer as the M10."

Read more: https://leicarumors.com/#ixzz5OjYyE7KP

Archlich
08-20-2018, 09:15
It's not officially announced yet.

Timmyjoe
08-20-2018, 10:07
While I dearly love the look of the "P" versions of the M9 and now M10, with the old Leica logo on top and no red dot, my wife would kill me if I ever spent $8000 on a camera.

Best,
-Tim

Huss
08-20-2018, 10:59
Soooo, $700 more for no red dot and claimed 'silent shutter'.
Seeing I can't tell the difference between the much much quieter shutter on the current M10 vs original M10, I kinda doubt that.

Obviously I'm not in the market, I was for the M240 replacing my M-E, because I could actually see and use the differences between the cameras. I don't see any difference at all in image making capabilities of the current M10 vs M240, so have no interest.
For $8K Leica needs to have a better sensor than what is available in a $1700 Nikon D750 (now available used for $1000).
Let alone a 47mp $3300 Nikon D850.

airfrogusmc
08-20-2018, 12:37
Huss if low light is needed then there is a noticeable diff between the 240 and the M 10. Also the m 10 is so much more responsive than the 240/262. In my opinion 24mps is plenty. I probably going to pick up another M 10 before the end of the year but it wont be an M10P

Looking forward to seeing what the M10 Mono will be like. I can get very usable files at 20,000 ISO. My 262 3200 is getting a bit dicey. If this mono is like the rest usable 60,000 ISO files in true B&W rangefinder sounds interesting to me.

ptpdprinter
08-20-2018, 12:44
Looking forward to seeing what the M10 Mono will be like. I can get very usable files at 20,000 ISO. My 262 3200 is getting a bit dicey. If this mono is like the rest usable 60,000 ISO files in true B&W rangefinder sounds interesting to me.
Do you really shoot at ISO 20,000? From looking at your images, I would not have thought it would be necessary. And ISO 60,000? That's 7-8 stops faster than Tri-X.

airfrogusmc
08-20-2018, 13:00
I do for some corporate events that I shoot and I if the room has the right quality of light I will shoot 20,000 and I have shot at 12,600 for some annual report work with the M 10.

A real benefit, even if you don't need higher ISO than 3200, is just how much more responsive the M 10 is. No lag like there can be with the 240/262.

For my street work I usually shoot at 1600 and 3200. Sometimes at 6400 but that is usually with my MM. Would be nice to have a bit more for those evening and night shots. To be able to still shoot at 1/000 at f/8 and f/11 would be great.

aizan
08-20-2018, 14:12
they went with the giant adjustment screw. bummer. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Ko.Fe.
08-20-2018, 14:48
Soooo, $700 more for no red dot and claimed 'silent shutter'.
Seeing I can't tell the difference between the much much quieter shutter on the current M10 vs original M10, I kinda doubt that.

Obviously I'm not in the market, I was for the M240 replacing my M-E, because I could actually see and use the differences between the cameras. I don't see any difference at all in image making capabilities of the current M10 vs M240, so have no interest.
For $8K Leica needs to have a better sensor than what is available in a $1700 Nikon D750 (now available used for $1000).
Let alone a 47mp $3300 Nikon D850.

Canon 5D MKII used is available for M10-P to M10 difftence in price and its sensor is as good as M240. I have no plans to leave M-E, but might add 5D MKII naturally once our daughter will decide to sell it.

Richard G
08-20-2018, 14:53
they went with the giant adjustment screw. bummer. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Love your ‘emoticon’. I agree they have a problem choosing what to do with the front of the camera. That is my difficulty with the rangefinder Leicas since they dropped the now unnecessary frame line illumination window. All that bare real estate on the face of the top cover: the cameras look like a kid with a cranial deformity however they decorate it. Bold to go big with that screw, and possibly the best solution.

Gregm61
08-20-2018, 15:01
Think I'll be sticking with the MP240 for a good while. May venture into the market the next few months for a used M246, especially if they announce a B&W version of the M10 and those users start trading in bodies.

maggieo
08-20-2018, 17:02
Dammit. Now I will have to sell ALL my other camera gear.

Except my M9-P. Which I love. But I'd have to sell it too, to get an M10-P.

I wonder how much an engraving job would be on a used silver M10. I know the duct tape for the dot is gonna be cheap...

raid
08-20-2018, 17:05
From a practical point of view, buying an M240 makes much more sense that buying an M10 or M10P for most Leica users. Of course, if you want an M10, then get one.

Huss
08-20-2018, 17:10
Huss if low light is needed then there is a noticeable diff between the 240 and the M 10. Also the m 10 is so much more responsive than the 240/262. In my opinion 24mps is plenty. I probably going to pick up another M 10 before the end of the year but it wont be an M10P

Looking forward to seeing what the M10 Mono will be like. I can get very usable files at 20,000 ISO. My 262 3200 is getting a bit dicey. If this mono is like the rest usable 60,000 ISO files in true B&W rangefinder sounds interesting to me.

I get that it may work with how you use your camera, but I like to control my lighting for my projects (I'm not a big street shooter), and in low light use a tripod. I shoot digital the way I shoot film, which is why I shoot film much more! And I don't shoot over 10K ISO (or even over 6K) because quite frankly while one can, it does not look good unless converted to mono.

For my use, I don't notice any difference in responsiveness but I just shoot one shot at a time. I even do that with my D850.
I dunno man, it just seems like for $8K it has nothing to offer to me, at all, that I can get image wise, with a used $2500 M240 let alone any Japanese camera. At regular ISOs there is no difference between the M240 and M10.

And if we are playing the high ISO game/excuse, then we are going to lose heavily to any of the other mainstream mfgs.

kshapero
08-20-2018, 18:15
https://leicarumors.com/

Read the website. It's a rumor.

nickthetasmaniac
08-20-2018, 18:35
https://leicarumors.com/

Did you actually read the link? 'The RUMOURED specifications/upgrades from the current M10...'

airfrogusmc
08-20-2018, 18:37
From a practical point of view, buying an M240 makes much more sense that buying an M10 or M10P for most Leica users. Of course, if you want an M10, then get one.

Ha ha when has any of this been practical. I buy what best works with the way I see and work. I guess finding equipment that does that in the end is practical. I like how simple the menu is on the M 10. 3 buttons on the back and again how responsive it is. I will be getting another M 10 by end of year.

airfrogusmc
08-20-2018, 18:46
I get that it may work with how you use your camera, but I like to control my lighting for my projects (I'm not a big street shooter), and in low light use a tripod. I shoot digital the way I shoot film, which is why I shoot film much more! And I don't shoot over 10K ISO (or even over 6K) because quite frankly while one can, it does not look good unless converted to mono.

For my use, I don't notice any difference in responsiveness but I just shoot one shot at a time. I even do that with my D850.
I dunno man, it just seems like for $8K it has nothing to offer to me, at all, that I can get image wise, with a used $2500 M240 let alone any Japanese camera. At regular ISOs there is no difference between the M240 and M10.

And if we are playing the high ISO game/excuse, then we are going to lose heavily to any of the other mainstream mfgs.

I like to see the light and if I can't get what I need with available or natural then and only then I will supplement or create it.

Usually it's the other guys saying that Leica doesn't have great ISO performance. The M 10 does have very good ISO performance. Wait 3 weeks and some company will have a camera with better ISO performance than them all. At some point like MPs you have to say when is it all perfectly fine. I think finally with Leica digital it is there with the M 10. At least for me.

kshapero
08-21-2018, 06:07
Ok now it is real.
https://www.leicastoresf.com/399212

Godfrey
08-21-2018, 06:35
According to Jono Slack, there is more to the M10-P update than just cosmetic frippery:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-news/2018/08/leica-m10-p-jono/

I trust Jono's reviews much more than anyone else's. Not that I have any particular need or interest in buying an M10-P at the present time ... I'm quite pleased with the performance of my M-D typ 262 and continue to enjoy using it.

All the caterwauling about stratospheric ISO sensitivity and other geegaws is lost on me: I simply don't care once my equipment does what I want and performs to my satisfaction. Both the Leica M-D and the Leica CL are doing what I want and perform to my satisfaction. I'd much rather invest time and energy into doing photography than whining about the lack of the mythical perfect camera, from Leica or any other manufacturer.

G

"Equipment is transient, photographs endure."

KM-25
08-21-2018, 07:20
From a purely philosophical standpoint I have always had a hard time paying more than $5,000 for a digital camera so I had to really think hard about dropping even $6,500 on my M10 which I can honestly say it has been worth it.

But $8K for a Leica M digital body? Are they out of their freaking minds?

ptpdprinter
08-21-2018, 07:24
I am interested in comments on the new, more silent shutter, once people have experienced it.

willie_901
08-21-2018, 07:27
Do you really shoot at ISO 20,000? From looking at your images, I would not have thought it would be necessary. And ISO 60,000? That's 7-8 stops faster than Tri-X.

The point is not being able to use shutter times and, or apertures that produce a useful rendered image brightness at ISO 20,000.

The point is shadow region rendering will be superior at base ISO (and above). There's no difference between 8 stops of lower exposure for shadow regions in bright scenes and a very dark room where 8 stops of post-acquisition image brightening is required due to shutter time and, or DOF considerations. Under exposure levels are similar and S/N ratios are similar from about ISO 300 through 20,000.

Improvements in a sensor assembly S/N can be useful at every camera ISO setting. The M10's useful analog dynamic range is about 10 1/2 stops (engineering DR would be about 2 stops higher). Shadow regions with 7-8 stops less exposure are not rare.

Darthfeeble
08-21-2018, 08:11
My pet peeve: Still no sensor cleaning. Ridiculous.

Emile de Leon
08-21-2018, 08:39
Lets see...added extra cotton on the shutter...put a Home Depot lookin screw on front..and a Home Depot level too..oh yeah..!
Leica is genius at milking a concept...and shearin..the sheep..! lol..

airfrogusmc
08-21-2018, 09:07
Lets see...added extra cotton on the shutter...put a Home Depot lookin screw on front..and a Home Depot level too..oh yeah..!
Leica is genius at milking a concept...and shearin..the sheep..! lol..

Nikon and Canon aren't doing the same thing? They saturate the market before they upgrade with a camera that is probably a concept that is over a year old so they can get ever nickel out of their current model. At least Leica M are cameras that are not like anything the big two are making. I won't be buying an M10P and I'm not defending the price but I do really like my M 10 (I also paid about what KM25 paid) and a camera like the MM or M-D will probably only be made by Leica.

Godfrey
08-21-2018, 09:36
No manufacturer is ever going to satisfy the bulk of you no matter what they do, so reading all your pent-up angst over a camera's details and/or price is purely for the amusement value; there's no information value in it at all.

Sadly, there's little joy in it either.

G

Out to Lunch
08-21-2018, 10:04
I am interested in comments on the new, more silent shutter, once people have experienced it.


When interested in silent shutters, have a look at the Fuji X-H1. You can almost get 5 of these for the price of one Leica M10-P.

ptpdprinter
08-21-2018, 10:09
When interested in silent shutters, have a look at the Fuji X-H1. You can almost get 5 of these for the price of one Leica M10-P.
I am interested from a curiosity sense, not a purchasing sense. I use an XE2/XT2.

raid
08-21-2018, 10:14
My pet peeve: Still no sensor cleaning. Ridiculous.

I wish they had by now an effective sensor cleaner built in.

Calzone
08-21-2018, 10:18
$8K for a Leica is not news to me.

I believe six years ago I paid $8K for my Monochrom. Some of the best money I ever spent. I still own and love this camera. Kinda primitive and basic, and very much like a film camera (no video). The charm of the original Monochrom is its crudeness.

When is a M10M coming out?

Cal

Fjäll
08-21-2018, 10:26
$8K for a Leica is not news to me.

I believe six years ago I paid $8K for my Monochrom. Some of the best money I ever spent. I still own and love this camera. Kinda primitive and basic, and very much like a film camera (no video). The charm of the original Monochrom is its crudeness.

When is a M10M coming out?

Cal

Would you consider upgrading to an M10 Monochrom?

Calzone
08-21-2018, 10:58
Would you consider upgrading to an M10 Monochrom?

F,

I would have remorse if I didn't keep my Monochrom. It is an important camera for me. I know and realize the M-246 crushes it in so many ways as far as being more advanced, faster, better high ISO...

I do happen to love the CCD rendering which I think is novel, and again I think that one day many others will appreciate and embrace the basic simplicity and primitive nature.

It already is kind of a cult camera that people either love or hate. I love mine warts and all. It is still a great camera and its six years old (sensor replaced in just 12 weeks along with the "free" overhaul and recovering). My original covering was worn smooth is some areas from my fingertips and use of a grip. The anodize is silvery from heavy use especially along the edges.

My hope is that Leica continues to follow the trend and like from the M-240 developed a M-246, except this time goes from M10 to M10P to M10M. I certainly would buy one.

Understand that for color I shoot a SL, and if Leica created a Monochrom SL I certainly would have to buy one. A SLM is not so likely, but a M10M...

So in the end I would buy a new monochome Leica as an addition.

Also know that I still shoot and own my film Leicas.

Cal

Huss
08-21-2018, 11:11
From a purely philosophical standpoint I have always had a hard time paying more than $5,000 for a digital camera so I had to really think hard about dropping even $6,500 on my M10 which I can honestly say it has been worth it.

But $8K for a Leica M digital body? Are they out of their freaking minds?

I think there is a large, albeit silent contingent of Leica owners (not users..) who like the price hike, because it helps reinforce financial class boundaries.
Only $8000? Well at least that is over twice the price of a proletariat Nikon D850, but let's hope for some special edition models that push the asking price over $10,000.

This is why Leica spends money of glitzy showrooms, but only has one service tech for the entire USA. You're not really meant to take pics with them, but use them as a demonstration of wealth. Taking photos? We hire people to do that for us!

Huss
08-21-2018, 11:20
Huh, missed this bit:
"The camera has a body the same thickness as an M7 and has abandoned video (nobody seemed to notice) and much more controversially the level gauge of the M240."

I use that a lot in my M100 (M240 anniversary edition). I had no idea they took content like that OUT of the M10. That makes the M10 a complete deal killer for me. So now I have to pay $8000 to get what I already had in my $3500 M240?
The cynic on me would say that was a deliberate de-contenting move so that Leica can then release an updated model with that put back in as if that was now an advancement. Of course for much more money.

Yeah. No.

ptpdprinter
08-21-2018, 11:21
From a purely philosophical standpoint I have always had a hard time paying more than $5,000 for a digital camera so I had to really think hard about dropping even $6,500 on my M10 which I can honestly say it has been worth it. But $8K for a Leica M digital body? Are they out of their freaking minds?
Leica raised the price of the M10 from $6500 to $7300 earlier this year, so the price of the M10-P represents only a 10% premium.

Calzone
08-21-2018, 11:45
I think there is a large, albeit silent contingent of Leica owners (not users..) who like the price hike, because it helps reinforce financial class boundaries.
Only $8000? Well at least that is over twice the price of a proletariat Nikon D850, but let's hope for some special edition models that push the asking price over $10,000.

This is why Leica spends money of glitzy showrooms, but only has one service tech for the entire USA. You're not really meant to take pics with them, but use them as a demonstration of wealth. Taking photos? We hire people to do that for us!

Huss,

Certainly Leica as a brand is a status symbol, but comparing a DSLR with a rangefinder is a bit of a jump for me. Pretty much not the same.

The other half who owns and uses lots of legacy glass is certainly paying the premium for other reasons.

My experience with Leica service has not been so bad as your experiences. My Monochrom sensor replacement took 12 weeks when I was told 10 weeks, but I sent in my camera in a December and as we all know Leica has a holiday shutdown. I even got a shipping label with insurance so pretty much the cost to me was zero.

Also about two years ago I asked to borrow an autofocus lens for my SL. The 50 Lux I had pre-ordered, and I need an AF lens to cover NYC Fashion Week. It cost nothing to ask, but Leica suprised and lent me a AF 24-90 SL lens for nearly three weeks. Again zero cost to me.

When I go to the Leica Store in SoHo the level of support I get is amazing.

Leica gets a bit of a bad rap for all those that waited till the last minute. The crazy long waits for a sensor replacement towards the end of the program is partially due to those who waited till the very end. Procrastinators need to take some responsibility here. I for one took advantage of this free repair and overhaul, but also know that I too did not respond upon the initial offer, and responded about a year later. If I had gotten caught up with the log-jam at the end would not this be my fault?

When I sent my Rollie 3.5F Whiteface to Harry Fleenor and the camera took 12 weeks to get overhauled I didn't mind. When I send a camera to Sherry and it takes two months it is no big deal. Untill I sent my Monochrom in for sensor replacement I had no issues other than the complaint that using continuous would lock up the camera. The obvious workaround is don't shoot with the camera in continuous mode.

The point I made about my Monochrom costing $8K is now, six years later, it is still a great camera, no buyer's remorse for me, and again it was some of the best money I ever spent.

Cal

ptpdprinter
08-21-2018, 12:05
Leica gets a bit of a bad rap for all those that waited till the last minute. The crazy long waits for a sensor replacement towards the end of the program is partially due to those who waited till the very end. Procrastinators need to take some responsibility here. I for one took advantage of this free repair and overhaul, but also know that I too did not respond upon the initial offer, and responded about a year later. If I had gotten caught up with the log-jam at the end would not this be my fault?l
Leica owners did not wait until the last minute or procrastinate! It's not their fault that Leica abruptly terminated its guarantee and every owner had 120 days to submit their camera for evaluation/repair so they wouldn't be left holding the bag.

Calzone
08-21-2018, 12:31
Leica owners did not wait until the last minute or procrastinate! It's not their fault that Leica abruptly terminated its guarantee and every owner had 120 days to submit their camera for evaluation/repair so they wouldn't be left holding the bag.

PTP,

You are correct in that Leica could of made better of their "Good Will" and contributed and exacerbated the log-jam that resulted at the end of their Sensor Replacement Program.

I even take ownership that I waited at least a year or longer before sending my Monochrom in for Sensor Replacement.

The point I was trying to make is that there was an envelope that was a lot longer than a year prior to those 120 days final notice, and many people procrastinated-myself included, but I was lucky not have been impacted by the termination of this extension of "Good Will."

Some will argue that this program should of been more open ended or perhaps should have been indefinite, but is that good business or is that being naive? Did owners protect their own best interests, or are they expecting Leica to do that?

How much time would be correct? I stand firm people procrastinated, myself included. It is human nature.

Cal

ptpdprinter
08-21-2018, 12:39
The point I was trying to make is that there was an envelope that was a lot longer than a year prior to those 120 days final notice, and many people procrastinated-myself included, but I was lucky not have been impacted by the termination of this extension of "Good Will."

Some will argue that this program should of been more open ended or perhaps should have been indefinite, but is that good business or is that being naive? Did owners protect their own best interests, or are they expcting Leica to do that?
There were a lot of owners (majority?) who didn't know if they had sensor corrosion or not. Did you expect them to periodically send in their cameras for evaluation to see if they did? It wasn't until Leica terminated its guarantee that people decided they'd better send in their cameras so if their camera was affected they would lose out on what Leica had promised them.

Calzone
08-21-2018, 13:21
There were a lot of owners (majority?) who didn't know if they had sensor corrosion or not. Did you expect them to periodically send in their cameras for evaluation to see if they did? It wasn't until Leica terminated its guarantee that people decided they'd better send in their cameras so if their camera was affected they would lose out on what Leica had promised them.

PTP,

I know that determining if one has sensor corrosion is not obvious to many. I only suspected corrosion on my MM because of artifacts seen on my larger prints and only on some of them. My 27 inch EIZO did not make these artifacts evident.

I did not know I truely had sensor corrosion until Leica informed me. If I had none I assume that Leica would of simply returned my camera, but that was not the case.

I have a friend who had his MM sensor replaced. He freaked out because he thought he had sensor corrosion again on the replaced sensor. This was after the modded/upgraded/corrected sensor. It ended up being as I suspected. Oil and grease migration from the free rebuild/overhaul that was performed with the sensor replacement. He got a free sensor cleaning by Leica, problem solved.

The sensor corrosion problem is widely known, and I say any owner had to be aware of the possibility. This was not a surprise or any mystery to add drama. The tension, drama, and sense of mystery created being added is being naive and not sending in your camera to be inspected and taking appropriate action.

All this was compounded by procrastination and human nature as well as some bad handling and abrupt notice by Leica.

I for one sent my camera in to find out. You are asking me if it is appropriate for others who could not determine for sure like me to do the same. My friend I mentioned above did twice.

It was posted in a thread I started and mentioned by many, "just send in your camera for evaluation," when people could not determine if they had sensor corrosion for sure.

BTW I did not make a poll, but the responses in the thread I started suggests that in most cases corrosion was found and sensors were replaced. I don't recall many that were simply returned and if there were many more had the sensors replaced.

Again this is about an owner of an expensive camera taking responsibility. If you called like I did, a shipping label would be supplied and the only cost would have been the time without the camera.

Cal

ptpdprinter
08-21-2018, 13:42
Are you planning on returning your SL for evaluation anytime soon just to make sure it doesn't have any defects you don't know about? I don't understanding your attempt to blame the victims.

ellisson
08-21-2018, 13:49
Not the thread topic, but sensor corrosion was a good bet on most MM cameras - always just a matter of time and actually, infrequent use!

In retrospect, Leica could have sent a recall notice to all owners who registered their cameras and to the websites/forums, such as this one, frequented by Leica MM users.

A recall of these cameras for sensor replacement would have been the best policy. For owners that wished to check their sensors, the process is not difficult - it just needed to be communicated earlier to the owners! If you can photograph a wall, you can check a sensor for corrosion. Eventually the instructions were available on-line, but it took a trade-in/upgrade program (for another Leica!) to make this happen.

It could have been handled better IMO.

Calzone
08-22-2018, 05:44
Are you planning on returning your SL for evaluation anytime soon just to make sure it doesn't have any defects you don't know about? I don't understanding your attempt to blame the victims.

PTP,

Are there problems with the SL I should know about? I have owned mine for about 3 years with no problems. Did a few firmware updates. Had to clean my sensor myself once. I think you are being mighty creative here and way off base.

Meanwhile I think few people were unaware of the sensor corrosion problem. Certainly I'm not blaming the victims here having been one who had and experience both sensor corrosion and having it repaired. I certainly know first hand.

I think Ellisson makes few good points: no doubt Leica could of handled things differently and in a better manner; also the sensor defect was widely known.

What I'm saying is in a similar manner some Leica camera owners did the same as Leica and could have done things in a better manner. My waiting 12 weeks for my camera to be repaired was comparable to the wait for Harry Fleenor to overhaul my Rollie 3.5F and was not unreasonable. Cost me nothing.

I will also state that it is human nature to process anger outwards to avoid being mad at oneself which can lead to depression. I'm not playing the blame game like you suggest. Some people acted irresponsibly and did little to protect their own self interests. Sorry,but this is not Leica's fault.

Cal

willie_901
08-22-2018, 07:35
My pet peeve: Still no sensor cleaning. Ridiculous.

I don't think there is room for a vibration system. Every millimeter in the digital M design is critical.

If the body is too thick, people will complain about that as well.

Calzone
08-22-2018, 08:03
I don't think there is room for a vibration system. Every millimeter in the digital M design is critical.

If the body is too thick, people will complain about that as well.

Willie,

My SL has built in sensor cleaning.

I still had to practice good camera hygene and had to perform a wet cleaning to remove a spec of pollen from a trip to Spain. Funny thing is that I never removed or changed the lens on that trip.

There are complaints that the SL is too big. The idea of a M is keep it small.

No sensor cleaning on my MM is no big deal. Not sure it is an asset in my case because I maintain and check for dust and oil anyways.

Cal

KEVIN-XU 愛 forever
08-22-2018, 08:22
M10-P is still a black chrome body... I will not consider to upgrade my silver M10.

furcafe
08-22-2018, 09:41
Agreed. If they could fit in a vibration system, they could also have in-body image stabilization (same mechanism).

I don't think there is room for a vibration system. Every millimeter in the digital M design is critical.

If the body is too thick, people will complain about that as well.

furcafe
08-22-2018, 09:51
Understood, but you can save a bunch of $$ by buying from a store in Europe, where the price is 6250 Euros. With typical shipping charges + customs processing fees (no duty on cameras) if those aren't included in your shipping that = approximately $7325 at current exchange rates. If you live in the U.S. & buy online, there is absolutely no reason to buy a Leica from a U.S. store.

From a purely philosophical standpoint I have always had a hard time paying more than $5,000 for a digital camera so I had to really think hard about dropping even $6,500 on my M10 which I can honestly say it has been worth it.

But $8K for a Leica M digital body? Are they out of their freaking minds?

Calzone
08-22-2018, 10:25
Agreed. If they could fit in a vibration system, they could also have in-body image stabilization (same mechanism).

FC,

The image stabilization system on the 24-90 zoom I borrowed from Leica was pretty amazing. From what I understand in-the-lens IS is the most optimized over in-the-body IS.

I was walking around at night in the Bowelry and doing all these "circus shots" of stuff just blasting away. No high ISO pushing at all at 400 ISO.

When I downloaded my jaw dropped. razor sharp images, some at 1/13th second shutter speed. Some zoomed out to 65mm so it was not about going wide for advantage.

This blew my mind.

Cal

Huss
08-24-2018, 09:44
This is interesting, from a pro photog on fredmiranda.com:

"I tested both of the cameras (M10 and M10P) with and without a lens attached and I noticed that the M10P was just about as loud when you removed the lenses. Then when you attached the lens it was MUCH quieter than the M10 w/lens attached. So it got me thinking that maybe the noise of the shutter isn't coming from the lens/lens mount hole (all that glass and steel/brass maybe dampens the sound). But around the body it's quite a thin layer of metal and at the bottom of the cam too so PERHAPS they just added some much needed insulation to muffle the noise??

I know they said it's a new shutter, but I'm hesitant to believe it's nothing more than better insulation to dampen the noise after testing both shutters with no lenses attached."

So yeah, no new shutter. Just insulation. Which may cause overheating issues in heavy use (why wasn't it there before?). Then again it doesn't have video as that was taken out, so unless it is used in LiveView mode a lot I don't think it would be an issue.

CameraQuest
08-24-2018, 10:09
I handled an M10-P
its incredibly quiet, about half as noisy as a M10
plus the traditional Leica top plate engraving
a very nicely done camera

Mcary
08-25-2018, 05:58
The recent release of the M10P has made me start to wonder if somewhere down the road Leica will release an ME/M262 version of the M10, basically thinking an M10 but with an aluminum rather than Brass top plate like the M262 vs the M240...Kind of digital M6.

raid
08-25-2018, 06:12
That would cost $10,000 to match the M "10"?

Huss
08-27-2018, 12:16
Check the specs. Leica M10 w/ battery is 660g
Leica M10p w/ battery is 680g. That extra 20g is insulation.

But in Leica speak, it's an all new shutter... Ignore the man behind the curtain!

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1312198-REG/leica_20000_m10_digital_rangefinder_camera.html?st s=pi

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1430189-REG/leica_20022_m10_p_digital_rangefinder_camera.html? ap=y&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIo6-d7_aN3QIVE9tkCh2htwX0EAQYASABEgJUUvD_BwE&smp=y

CameraQuest
08-27-2018, 12:24
Check the specs. Leica M10 w/ battery is 660g
Leica M10p w/ battery is 680g. That extra 20g is insulation.

But in Leica speak, it's an all new shutter... Ignore the man behind the curtain!

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1312198-REG/leica_20000_m10_digital_rangefinder_camera.html?st s=pi

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1430189-REG/leica_20022_m10_p_digital_rangefinder_camera.html? ap=y&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIo6-d7_aN3QIVE9tkCh2htwX0EAQYASABEgJUUvD_BwE&smp=y

I don't think so. Leica has no reason to claim a new shutter if there is no new shutter.

Huss
08-27-2018, 12:45
I don't think so. Leica has no reason to claim a new shutter if there is no new shutter.

Of course they do, so people think there is a new silent shutter and so step up to buy.
Leica does not have a good track record of being honest - see change to their lifetime upgrade of defective sensor policy.
How else do u think the camera gained 20gms?

Roger Hicks
08-27-2018, 12:45
I don't think so. Leica has no reason to claim a new shutter if there is no new shutter.
Dear Stephen,

True. But some people (especially those who don't use Leicas) can never resist a baseless attack on Leica, and they have even more trouble in avoiding baseless attacks on Leica users. Besides, what does "new" mean in this context?

Cheers,

R.

Huss
08-27-2018, 12:52
Dear Stephen,

True. But some people (especially those who don't use Leicas) can never resist a baseless attack on Leica, and they have even more trouble in avoiding baseless attacks on Leica users.

Cheers,

R.

What a bummer, eh Roger?

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1855/42500510630_4f1909a44e_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/27KCe7E)

Missing from this image - because there isnt enough room on my table - my M7, M-A, second M3, Md-A, if, M4-2 and of course all the lenses...

Sumarongi
08-27-2018, 13:01
What a bummer, eh Roger?

Missing from this image - because there isnt enough room on my table - my M7, M-A, second M3, Md-A, if, M4-2 and of course all the lenses...

Huss, you've changed the picture, but that looks like a ZENIT(H) behind the R9, eh *not enough room on my table*? :D

Huss
08-27-2018, 13:02
This is what Leica officially has stated:
" the M10-P gains a redesigned shutter that makes it the quietest of all film and digital M cameras."

20 gms of increased weight suggests that the shutter is exactly the same - born out by the fact that it is just as loud as a regular M10 if you take the lens off - and that 20gms is from extra insulation they put in the body.

Or you can just accept at face value everything they tell you, w/o any curiosity into the technical possibilities of what actually changed.

Huss
08-27-2018, 13:03
Huss, you've changed the picture, but that looks like a ZENIT(H) behind the R9, eh *not enough room on my table*? :D

The Zenit TTL is awesome! See how it turns it back on the bourgeois capitalistic German cameras! I also have a 12SD, but while the 12 SD has a brighter screen and 'nicer' finish, the TTL has a smoother shutter release.

p.s in the camera bag on the left is an Olympus OM-EM10 mk11 w/ a couple of lenses.

Sumarongi
08-27-2018, 13:08
The Zenit TTL is awesome! See how it turns it back on the bourgeois capitalistic German cameras! I also have a 12SD, but while the 12 SD has a brighter screen and 'nicer' finish, the TTL has a smoother shutter release.

p.s in the camera bag on the left is an Olympus OM-EM10 mk11 w/ a couple of lenses.

Hm, I'd say the Zenit is some illegitimate cousin, of course s/he turns their back on the legitimate noble family members, especially the weirdly bulbous ones ^^

Huss
08-27-2018, 13:16
Hm, I'd say the Zenit is some illegitimate cousin, of course s/he turns their back on the legitimate noble family members, especially the weirdly bulbous ones ^^

If you are talking about the Hunchbacks of Solms R8 and R9, I felt that way until I used them. They are the best handling, best thought out MF SLRs made. Fer realz .

Anyway back on rant - M10P does not have a new shutter. Just expensive cotton balls stuffed in there. 20gms worth of them...