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View Full Version : Have Leica bokeh workshops jumped the shark?


Huss
05-15-2018, 09:22
When Leica offers workshops on it?

http://us.leica-camera.com/Stores-Dealers/Point-of-Experience/Point-of-Experience?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Po-EK_Bokeh

Ko.Fe.
05-15-2018, 09:56
Well, what else they could offer? Sports, macro, product and any other photography is taken.
Only few are using Leica for paid photography.
What is left? Rich hobbiests market. Every time I read something at Leica site it is very obvious. Every Leica product page has full of pathetic BS including their cinema products.
It is written in butique, cuture, Vegas steakhouse language.

But as totally unbiased person :), I would like to say, those fast 50 with Leica n word in the name are true bokeh makers. Even at f8.

sepiareverb
05-15-2018, 11:53
Not at all. Bokeh is a tangible dream.

Out to Lunch
05-15-2018, 12:19
Not at all. It's just a logical sequence to the Lenny Kravitz new limited edition “Correspondent” version of the Leica M-P digital rangefinder ... "with a styling for the camera that offers a luxury product in an artificially aged package".

Keith
05-15-2018, 14:41
I'll wait for the cat workshop! :D

dourbalistar
05-15-2018, 14:59
Wait, I thought Leica lenses had bokeh built in? Or was that glow....?

peterm1
05-15-2018, 15:22
There are some historical overtones. Before WW2 (and to some extent, after the war) Leica used to promote its camera and lens wares by having workshops in various cities where people could come to be convinced that indeed a small camera could make big pictures. Walter Benser was the key employee who traveled the world putting on a dog and pony show for photo enthusiasts everywhere. He eventually wrote an autobiographical account "My life with the Leica" ( https://www.amazon.com/My-Life-Leica-Walther-Benser/dp/0906447585 ). Seems to me there are some similarities. Though of course there was no Web back then and it all depended on a hands on, face to face approach. And I doubt they had heard of bokeh.

MCTuomey
05-15-2018, 15:22
i thought leica's marketing jumped it long ago, but maybe they're caught in the tow rope

Saul
05-15-2018, 16:58
Leica is simply now chum.

robert blu
05-16-2018, 02:30
Oppps, I just bought an F 5.6 lens ... :)
robert

Benjamin Marks
05-16-2018, 02:40
Dang. I really wish I was a rich hobbyist. I had a grandfather who was land-rich and cash poor. I am Leica rich and cash poor. To clear this up: Would all the rich hobbyists please identify themselves?

airfrogusmc
05-16-2018, 07:19
Dang. I really wish I was a rich hobbyist. I had a grandfather who was land-rich and cash poor. I am Leica rich and cash poor. To clear this up: Would all the rich hobbyists please identify themselves?

Ha ha. Now that sounds familiar.

Ko, I didn't realize that I was rare but I am a full time pro that shoots Leica M and I am far from rich. I think that everything that Leica does to keep the cash flow coming in so they can afford to make cameras like the MM, M-D and the M 10 more power to them. They are a true alternative to all the other one size fits all options out there already. Rock on Leica with your special editions and workshops that I will probably never buy or attend but as I said if it helps the bottom line and keeps them making great cameras like the I previously mentioned that no one else will make that is a good thing in my opinion.

MCTuomey
05-16-2018, 07:24
Ha ha. Now that sounds familiar.

Ko, I didn't realize that I was rare but I am a full time pro that shoots Leica M and I am far from rich. I think that everything that Leica does to keep the cash flow coming in so they can afford to make cameras like the MM, M-D and the M 10 more power to them. They are a true alternative to all the other one size fits all options out there already. Rock on Leica with your special editions and workshops that I will probably never buy or attend but as I said if it helps the bottom line and keeps them making great cameras like the I previously mentioned that no one else will make that is a good thing in my opinion.

Good point - I appreciate the reminder.

Godfrey
05-16-2018, 07:34
...Rock on Leica with your special editions and workshops that I will probably never buy or attend but as I said if it helps the bottom line and keeps them making great cameras like the I previously mentioned that no one else will make that is a good thing in my opinion.

Right on point.

Why make fun of what other people enjoy and what generates income for their business, Huss? If it's not to your taste, well, no one has put a gun to your head to force you...

G

jsrockit
05-16-2018, 07:35
When Leica offers workshops on it?

http://us.leica-camera.com/Stores-Dealers/Point-of-Experience/Point-of-Experience?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Po-EK_Bokeh

Jeez, a new low...

Huss
05-16-2018, 07:37
Right on point.

Why make fun of what other people enjoy and what generates income for their business, Huss? If it's not to your taste, well, no one has put a gun to your head to force you...

G


I put out a rhetorical question to spur some fun chatter..

Or I could have started a w/nw cat photo thread, where everyone posts a pic but no-one comments on any of them.

:D

kuuan
05-16-2018, 07:51
I'd wish for a bit different, may say also better samples ( though I don't doubt they know what they are doing )

airfrogusmc
05-16-2018, 08:11
Jeez, a new low...

The real low would be Leica not being in business anymore. I don't worry what others do in regards to photography. Whatever floats their boat. If they only buy a Leica to put it on a shelf and they don't put the family into bankruptcy, it don't hurt no body so why should I care. To have the unique choices that Leica M offers then as I already said rock on Leica. A cat shot with a 13K lens that has "great bokeh" (whatever that term really means. It is so subjective) then why should I care. I have enough to worry about with my own work and the work I produce for my clients. To find a camera that fits so well with the way I see and work as Leica M digital has been, that is worth all the cat photos with great bokeh that can be produced if it keeps such a companies bottom line where it needs to be and keeps them making M 10s, MM and hopefully an M 10 version of the M-D.

jsrockit
05-16-2018, 08:24
The real low would be Leica not being in business anymore.

True...

I don't worry what others do in regards to photography. Whatever floats their boat. If they only buy a Leica to put it on a shelf and they don't put the family into bankruptcy, it don't hurt no body so why should I care.

I understand your point, but to me it disrespects photography when you concentrate on lens properties of the background of the image instead of framing and content (which Leica has a rich history of supporting).

To have the unique choices that Leica M offers then as I already said rock on Leica. A cat shot with a 13K lens that has "great bokeh" (whatever that term really means. It is so subjective) then why should I care.

To me, Leica is better than this...

I have enough to worry about with my own work and the work I produce for my clients. To find a camera that fits so well with the way I see and work as Leica M digital has been, that is worth all the cat photos with great bokeh that can be produced if it keeps such a companies bottom line where it needs to be and keeps them making M 10s, MM and hopefully an M 10 version of the M-D.

Yes, this is the typical stance but sometimes you have to question the corporate philosophy of a company to see if it still gels with your personal philosophy. Leica isn't killing anyone, but this type of stuff doesn't gel with me. You are a better person than me if you can look past it.

PKR
05-16-2018, 08:31
Jeez, a new low...

Leica, Shmika..

Ernst Haas


Bokeh, Shmooka ..

Me

robert blu
05-16-2018, 08:33
...Rock on Leica with your special editions and workshops that I will probably never buy or attend but as I said if it helps the bottom line and keeps them making great cameras like the I previously mentioned that no one else will make that is a good thing in my opinion.

Yes, at the end what is important is that Leica stay in business. It's true.

robert

airfrogusmc
05-16-2018, 08:48
The way I look at it there are so many so-called gurus out on the workshop tours, many claiming to have all kinds of secrets, and for a little $$ they will reveal those secrets when we all know all parts of photography really have no secrets. The secret is just knowledge. The ability to truly see is no secret. It is a journey and in many cases a very long journey. There really are no shortcuts as we all know.

Funny, when I was in college and we had a guest speaker come to our school suddenly everyone had become many me's of that person. Why shouldn't Leica try and get their piece of the pie? If they go under being better, is that really better? There are some that post here who probably think that. Lotsa Leica bashing from usually the same folks. There are plenty of cameras out there that don't work that well for me but I'm sure there are some out there who those cameras work well with. ROCK ON....Whatever gets someone making photographs. Even cat photographs with great bokeh ha ha though I personally tend to be more in line with Evans on this, though not as narrow.
"Photography is not cute cats, nor nudes, motherhood or arrangements of manufactured products. Under no circumstances it is anything ever anywhere near a beach." - Walker Evans

So which other camera companies are in line with your or my philosophy when it comes to photography? Kinda hard to tell most of the others that are on the gadget go-round apart. Well Leica M certainly comes the closest by what they produce as a product to the way I see and work.

My father said to me when I was young "always listen to what people say but really pay attention to what they do. It is their actions that always speak the truth." Leica's cameras like the MM, M-D, M10 M7, etc in my opinion is their truth.

Phil_F_NM
05-16-2018, 10:00
Now they need a "Brick walls, Peeling paint" workshop.
You hear that Leica? If you use that idea, I want a brand new M10 or ME262 or M1 Abrahms or whatever you're calling your cameras and I want the newest Noctilux hung on it. So I can sell it all, pay for the repair of my cracked molar, do some much needed work on my car, fly my folks in for a family reunion and buy a bunch of film to shoot while they're here.
Phil Forrest

Huss
05-16-2018, 10:21
well setting up bokeh workshops is a better investment for the company than spending the money to hire an extra tech to help with customer service issues.
Will Leica lend me a camera for the bokeh class as mine is still waiting to be repaired?

Alberti
05-16-2018, 10:32
Well, it took a long time as far as I can see to start optimising lenses for that specific use.
In the last decade or more everything went to lines per mm and detail/resolving power, and while owners like the 50mm APO, others can't afford them.

The quest for smooth bokeh with a real flat out-of-focus blob, saturated colors and including reinstatement of a really smooth diaphragm - not a crude 5 or six blade one, for me that is a new direction I welcome.
Of course, to show it off there must be some intro event.

I do not of course welcome another series of lenses with Vuitton/Rolls Royce price tags.

roscoetuff
05-16-2018, 10:33
Isn't the "Leica ain't any good bit" out of date and even inaccurate? Don't they own Swiss-made ALPA... which makes some of the really top end stuff? Now THAT stuff is expensive and makes a Leica M-10 or whatever look dirt cheap. Wouldn't you love to shoot one with a Phase One anchromatic back? Sure. But what do they make... 2 or 3 a year? And you can get started on a 2nd home with what they want for those puppies. My priorities and means ain't there perhaps, but I wish them well all the same.

If I weren't having fun with the stuff I have, maybe I'd be more sympathetic to the bile. As it stands.... I say more power to them. More power to their purchasers. Thank you for keeping the gears working, Leica humming, and an iconic company that still sells film cameras around. I hope those who step up and buy this stuff have as much if not more fun with their gear than I'm having. Might be hard though 'cause I'm having a lot of fun! And may those folks who're kind enough to help support an avocation I enjoy will help keep all this infrastructure around another decade or two long enough for me to squeeze out my last shots. May they even make photos that inspire the rest of us mere mortals. Go team!

But maybe it's not Leica that stirs the ire and resentment, but some of the smarmy connoisseurs running around putting on these workshops? Yep... I get it. But hey, the dudes are just trying to make a living. If someone wants to pay someone to attend a workshop on "How to chew gum while shooting a Leica..." more power to them.

roscoetuff
05-16-2018, 10:43
Anyone wanna help host a "Leica Lens Cap Workshop" ;)
I'd say you make a 3-day event.

daveleo
05-16-2018, 10:59
The most entertaining threads always include the word "Leica".
Lots of disagreement but somehow, civil and (I already said this in the previous sentence) entertaining.:)
FWIW, I will not be attending the bokeh seminar - have too many other self-indulgent toys to buy.

EDIT: did they jump the shark? .... long ago.

ptpdprinter
05-16-2018, 11:07
Anyone wanna help host a "Leica Lens Cap Workshop" ;) I'd say you make a 3-day event.
I think those are already given at the LHSA annual meetings.

Huss
05-16-2018, 11:42
Little known fact - Henry Winkler is a Leica ambassador.

f16sunshine
05-16-2018, 12:12
well setting up bokeh workshops is a better investment for the company than spending the money to hire an extra tech to help with customer service issues.
Will Leica lend me a camera for the bokeh class as mine is still waiting to be repaired?


Now you're just making sense.... stop it!

MCTuomey
05-16-2018, 12:36
well setting up bokeh workshops is a better investment for the company than spending the money to hire an extra tech to help with customer service issues.
Will Leica lend me a camera for the bokeh class as mine is still waiting to be repaired?

Probably not. You could move to Canon, get your repaired gear back in 4 days, and not miss the bokeh class.

C'mon, what well-heeled leicaphile has only one body?

ptpdprinter
05-16-2018, 12:49
C'mon, what well-heeled leicaphile has only one body?
This seems to be the real reason Leica owners generally don't get too exercised over nine month repair times.

Huss
05-16-2018, 13:06
Probably not. You could move to Canon, get your repaired gear back in 4 days, and not miss the bokeh class.

C'mon, what well-heeled leicaphile has only one body?

1. Canon does not repair Leica gear
b. Only Leica lenses have bokeh.
iii. This why Leica makes them in two different colours - silver and black. Can you get that crummy Nikon D850 in different finishes? No. Anyway, it makes it easy for us Leicaphiles to remember which one is broken.

ptpdprinter
05-16-2018, 13:10
This why Leica makes them in two different colours - silver and black. Can you get that crummy Nikon D850 in different finishes? No. Anyway, it makes it easy for us Leicaphiles to remember which one is broken.
Another rimshot. :)

MCTuomey
05-16-2018, 13:16
1. Canon does not repair Leica gear


True, but I was suggesting tongue-in-cheek that you switch over to Canon gear, then your repair times would improve, and you could still make the class. Of course, you'd be shooting Canon gear which might cause you a few self-conscious moments in said Leica class until you indicated you had no choice due to lack of a working Leica body ...

I had no idea Canon had no bokeh. Which, now that you mention it, perhaps explains why Canon doesn't offer any bokeh classes.

css9450
05-16-2018, 13:19
b. Only Leica lenses have bokeh.

No, you're thinking of Zen. Only Leica lenses have Zen (seriously - I read that here on the forum!).


iii. This why Leica makes them in two different colours - silver and black. Can you get that crummy Nikon D850 in different finishes? No. Anyway, it makes it easy for us Leicaphiles to remember which one is broken.

That's sort of the modern equivalent of a photographer using a brightly-colored strap on his "color" camera body, and a plain black or gray one on his "B&W" body.

css9450
05-16-2018, 13:27
EDIT: did they jump the shark? .... long ago.

Perhaps it was when they discontinued their top-of-the-line camera in favor of a retro, less-featured model. It saved the company, you know.

airfrogusmc
05-16-2018, 13:50
You could get 500 C/Ms in silver and black. I had both. A pro never has just one body and usually more than two. Leave out the sensor recalls and I had a lot more issues with my Canons than I have had with my Leica's same time frame. The one thing I do wish Leica would address and I have heard rumors that they are working on a pro program like CPS is the service. I was a CPS member off and on since the late 1970s and I was really spoiled with Canon having a center near me in Itasca but I still prefer my Ms by a lot over Canon. That's why I dumped all the Canon gear over 2 years ago and never looked back.

zuiko85
05-16-2018, 14:01
I was reading the blurb on that site for Leica Stores and at first misread "...insider-tips," as 'hipster-tips'. Glad I reread the line.

Although I have a very limited Leica M setup I'm certainly not a fan boy of the brand. Even so, I find it oddly comforting that they are still in business. I mean, who else could get away with building the MA, a fully mechanical, all manual rangefinder without a built-in meter in this day and age. I personally cannot afford Leica (a used body, yes, the lenses are out of reach) so I'm not their market for new equipment. But that could be true for what, maybe 90% of this forum's members? But I'm still glad they have survived.

Richard G
05-16-2018, 14:02
Oppps, I just bought an F 5.6 lens ... :)
robert

Me too. The fastest I use lately is f2.8. And f3.5 is the commonest maximum aperture lens Iíve shot on film the last 12 months. Thatís us swimming with the sharks Robert. Letís hear from Raid: heís an expert on sharks.

But Peter M is spot on. Workshops are not new.

Keith
05-16-2018, 14:48
Anyway, it makes it easy for us Leicaphiles to remember which one is broken.


Now that was funny! :p

Huss
05-16-2018, 23:07
.. I mean, who else could get away with building the MA, a fully mechanical, all manual rangefinder without a built-in meter in this day and age....

The M-A is pure genius. The newest film model with fewer features thus less to go wrong. Apparently this camera was brought into production by a suggestion from Larry, the solitary service tech at Leica NJ, who is eyeballs deep in broken Ms.
Rumour mill has it that the next M - the M-T - will build on this and be the first digital M without any electronics. It will have a chalk board where the LCD screen used to be, and come standard with a cartridge containing 36 individual one time use sensors. This is the future my pixel peeping pals.

Richard G
05-16-2018, 23:16
I have the Summaron M on my chrome M9-P. On my M2 it looks even more at home. I actually like the idea of a new MA with the new Summaron M f5.6. There's a brand new classic kit to last another 50 years.

Not sure about an an electronics-free digital camera. Maybe whiteboard instead of chalkboard for the screen....? It could come with a small black marker hanging by a string like the lens cap on the Leica 0. You could look through the viewdinder and then draw what you saw and photograph the whiteboard with your mobile phone. Or better, lay a piece of paper over the camera's whiteboard and have a reversed image of what you drew... OK I'm going to keep working on this idea...

skopar steve
05-17-2018, 08:45
I heard the LCD screen was going to be an Etch A Scketch.

Ko.Fe.
05-17-2018, 10:16
Ha ha. Now that sounds familiar.

Ko, I didn't realize that I was rare but I am a full time pro that shoots Leica M and I am far from rich. I think that everything that Leica does to keep the cash flow coming in so they can afford to make cameras like the MM, M-D and the M 10 more power to them. They are a true alternative to all the other one size fits all options out there already. Rock on Leica with your special editions and workshops that I will probably never buy or attend but as I said if it helps the bottom line and keeps them making great cameras like the I previously mentioned that no one else will make that is a good thing in my opinion.

What is the difference between pizza and paid photographer?
We all know, right? I know for sure, because one of our daughter do.
Maybe it is still old business model in USA, but in Canada only very few could support themselves by photography. It is mostly partial income here for families. Couple of years ago public was outraged for liberals paying to photog to get pictures on some small and irrelevant convention. Why, if it is doable by mobile phone - this was the message.
This is how bad it is here. It is really bad, because I have seen my daughter paid portraits and yours. She is really good with her huge Canon, L lens and flash. Her small hand veins are getting big every time she has to use it. I think she will be good with smaller Panasonic or Fuji, but Canon is unbeatable for easy of controls and it is OVF. I guess we share same problem with her on EVFs. And, yes, Canon nearby fixed her main lens within few days and for reasonable money. She doesn't have loads of cameras like you do, so she can't wait for months as you did with Leica.

Any way while I'm not finding anything different in your paid portraits with what my daughter does with Canon, I like what you have done after work with same Leica cameras. And I never looked for bokeh in yours images. They are one of the rare occurrences where bokeh is irrelevant :).
And then here is Aleksei Makishev who lives by taking pictures and who switched to Leica long time ago.
And then Anna Bocharova who does product photography for living with Canon and walks after work for hours with Leica. Her prints are at Russian Museum in St.Peterburg currently.
Some old fortes at Magnum and this is it whom I know with Leica.
It is really next to nothing comparing to how many paid photographers I know with non RF cameras.

At P.O.T.N. you are the only one who is using Leica for paid photography. And I'm afraid you are the one on RFF as well. LUF is just bunch of hobiests as well. With some old pro photogs who used to use Leica at work.

benlees
05-17-2018, 10:36
Little known fact - Henry Winkler is a Leica ambassador.

If he did in the character he plays on Arrested Development I would definitely provide a minute or two of listening to some product promotion.:p

Huss
05-17-2018, 10:41
A pro can use any camera to make money. But does not make that camera a pro camera. What does is the service and support from the mfg to ensure that the photographer can maintain their livelihood. And that makes Leica with its one service tech for the entire USA the most amateur operation out there.

jsrockit
05-17-2018, 12:13
Funny, when I was in college and we had a guest speaker come to our school suddenly everyone had become many me's of that person. Why shouldn't Leica try and get their piece of the pie? If they go under being better, is that really better? There are some that post here who probably think that. Lotsa Leica bashing from usually the same folks.

I've used many Leicas over the years (digital and film). I just no longer do. I still like the M, but I've moved on. I would hate to see Leica stop making them, but I still do not like the bokeh workshop. That's not hate against Leica, it is hate against a played out trend.

So which other camera companies are in line with your or my philosophy when it comes to photography?

For me, Fuji. That said, they are all in the business of making money... and this was also very Leica like of Fuji:

http://home-magnum.com/en/

Kinda hard to tell most of the others that are on the gadget go-round apart. Well Leica M certainly comes the closest by what they produce as a product to the way I see and work.

My father said to me when I was young "always listen to what people say but really pay attention to what they do. It is their actions that always speak the truth." Leica's cameras like the MM, M-D, M10 M7, etc in my opinion is their truth.

Agreed...

jsrockit
05-17-2018, 12:14
Now they need a "Brick walls, Peeling paint" workshop.

Haha, Phil... :eek:

PKR
05-17-2018, 17:13
No, you're thinking of Zen. Only Leica lenses have Zen (seriously - I read that here on the forum!).

Does Zen come with the camera or is it an accessory?

css9450
05-17-2018, 18:31
No, you're thinking of Zen. Only Leica lenses have Zen (seriously - I read that here on the forum!).

Does Zen come with the camera or is it an accessory?

I'll have to find the other thread.... It was actually pretty funny!