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Timmyjoe
12-04-2017, 11:01
Just got an email from Leica, which started off with the following statement:

"Some people say that if Oskar Barnack were to build a camera today, it would have the APS-C format."

What People? Instead of trying to justify their decision to go with an APS-C sensor as opposed to a Full Frame sensor (which in essence is what Oscar originally designed), they pull this crap with the whole "Some people are saying . . ." BS.

I hope this is not the future of marketing, and I certainly expected more from Leica.

Best,
-Tim

JoeLopez
12-04-2017, 11:09
Way to make irrelevance political.

ruby.monkey
12-04-2017, 11:12
Anyway, everyone knows he would have chosen micro-4/3.

CameraQuest
12-04-2017, 11:25
"Some people say that if Oskar Barnack were to build a camera today, he would work for fuji."

ptpdprinter
12-04-2017, 11:33
I hope this is not the future of marketing, and I certainly expected more from Leica.
Why? Leica advertising has always been full of that sort of nonsense. What do you expect them to say?

"Some people say that if Oskar Barnack were to build a camera today, it would not have a red dot on the front of it."

benlees
12-04-2017, 11:35
Standard marketing: it suggests a conversation with you, important person; cognoscenti, if you will, that directs you to discover something so obvious that you could only agree with them. "Aha, I see it too". It's important for brands to have new histories. They reinterpret the past to give the future you want. Fun, right?

So crass, isn't it?

css9450
12-04-2017, 11:36
Way to make irrelevance political.

Agreed. Completely unnecessary here. Reminds me of the comment section on Youtube.

Ko.Fe.
12-04-2017, 11:55
It took me two minutes to find out why he made 135 film camera. It was very personal reason behind of it. Based on this, he would lead the mobile phone photography, IMO.

I'm not finding this Leica statement annoying. It seems thier main profit is not with MiC phone, but made in Germany cameras. And making small cameras is not German LeicA camera AG thing after Barnack left. Minox was not invented in Germany. So, for current Leica the mentioned format is small. GoPro isn't German, if I'm not mistaken, either.

Timmyjoe
12-04-2017, 11:56
I stand by my original post. The annoyance I'm referring to is the dishonesty in such statements.

I find it cowardly and annoying when employed in an advertising campaign.

If there really is a knowledgeable someone, or someones, saying this, list them by name and give us their quotes. Don't hide behind the "Some people are saying . . ." BS.

Best,
-Tim

peterm1
12-04-2017, 12:06
"I hope this is not the future of marketing, and I certainly expected more from Leica."

I fear it already is the future of marketing. And as someone once said the future is not what it used to be. Marketers are people who are paid to put nice sounding "spin" on subjects so people will part with their money. They are not historians (or brain surgeons) they are word merchants and constantly come up with rubbish.

nukecoke
12-04-2017, 12:07
Anyway, everyone knows he would have chosen micro-4/3.

I think so too. M4/3 is the new 135.

splitimageview
12-04-2017, 12:18
No.

What’s annoying is the political tie-in. :)

I’ve been saying for years that “APS-C is the new full frame” (alternatively, “APS-C is the new miniature format”) and that is born out with sales figures.

It’s neither dishonest or inaccurate.

benlees
12-04-2017, 12:37
It’s neither dishonest or inaccurate.

It is actually. False by omission. Even true statements are not enough for accurate assessment if other true statements are omitted.

Of course, in this instance it is presented as hearsay/opinion to avoid any confusion.:rolleyes:

Timmyjoe
12-04-2017, 12:43
If you read the article I linked to, you would see that "Some people are saying . . ." is a way of spreading falsehoods, lies, and innuendo, without taking responsibility for spreading those falsehoods, lies, and innuendo.

I couldn't care less whether the new Leica camera is better or worse than anything else on the market. I have a problem with Leica using the "Some people are saying . . ." marketing ploy to justify their decision to go APS-C sensor instead of Full Frame. Why can't they be up front in explaining their reasoning, reasoning I don't know enough about to agree with or not. What I find annoying is couching it in the "Some people say . . ." language.

Best,
-Tim

css9450
12-04-2017, 12:50
If you read the article I linked to, you would see that "Some people are saying . . ." is a way of spreading falsehoods, lies, and innuendo, without taking responsibility for spreading those falsehoods, lies, and innuendo.



Silly me, I thought this was a thread about cameras.

goamules
12-04-2017, 12:51
Wait, are you annoyed by the Leica advertising (using a common sales technique going back 100 years), or was this just a way to talk about the political things that annoy you?

css9450
12-04-2017, 12:52
...or was this just a way to talk about the political things that annoy you?

Seems that would be against the forum rules. Oh, wait.... It is.

Timmyjoe
12-04-2017, 13:01
I have to say, I'm a bit baffled. If you read thru every post I made on this thread, I've very clearly stated that I am annoyed that Leica, (a company that has sold me many products over the years) is copying a technique made famous in the last two years by a notoriously dishonest politician when he is trying to spread falsehoods and conspiracy theories.

This is not a discussion about that politician, even though it seems like some of you would like it to be. It is an attempt at having a discussion about a camera company, that many of us do business with, using the "Some people say . . ." advertising technique to market their new camera.

Best,
-Tim

PS: And the article I linked to, is an analysis of how the "Some people say . . ." technique is used to spread falsehoods without having to provide facts to back up what you are claiming. Which ties directly into my original post, which is why would a camera company that wants to be taken seriously, use this technique?

ptpdprinter
12-04-2017, 13:10
Of course, "some people say" does not bolster veracity, or else "some people say Sasquatch exists", "some people say they were abducted by aliens", and "some people say the earth is flat" would support the truth of the matter stated therein. So what makes "some people say that if Oskar Barnack were to build a camera today, it would have the APS-C format" believable? Was it meant to be believable? Where they just using it as a ham-handed way to invoke their heritage? Honestly, I think someone probably said it in a board meeting and everyone thought is sounded good so they went with it without thinking. I sure hope the boys in Wetzlar are not wasting their time on American politics.

davidnewtonguitars
12-04-2017, 13:17
Just because your gal or guy lost the election, you don't have to drag it into a discussion about what a lot of people say is the best camera company ever.

back alley
12-04-2017, 13:22
"Some people say that if Oskar Barnack were to build a camera today"...drives me crazy too!

farlymac
12-04-2017, 13:22
It may sound like marketing BS, but when you consider the advancements in sensor technology, you no longer need a full frame sensor to get good quality images. So why wouldn't OB design an APS-C camera, if keeping with the "smaller is better" mantra is to be followed? It takes more space for the electronics to house a 35mm frame sensor. Even the "medium format" sensors offered today don't come close to being "full frame", yet ooze gobs of resolution to rival the old TLRs and other 6xwhatever cameras of yesteryear.

Still, it doesn't mean I'd drink of the Leica Kool Ade.

PF

BillBingham2
12-04-2017, 13:45
Some people say that if Oskar Barnack were to eat carrots, he would eat them with his eyes closed.........

Just a thought for a mONDAY!

B2 (;->

Timmyjoe
12-04-2017, 13:48
Not arguing whether APS-C or Full Frame is better. Just pointing out the advertising campaign, and annoyed that they would lead off with "Some people say . . ." instead of stating a fact like, "With an APS-C sensor you can get the same resolution as scanning a 35mm negative at 2000 dpi." Or "At Leica, we have found the dynamic range of our APS-C sensor camera is comparable to the 35mm film Oscar used in the 1920's." Or any number of statements that give us some facts and details about their camera.

Being that back in the day Leica made a big deal about the M9 having a full frame sensor, when compared to the M8 and most of the other digital cameras available at that time, if they now want to show why an APS-C sensor is the better way to go on their new camera, give us some actual information, not some hype about "Some people say (that someone who died years ago) would do this . . .".

Best,
-Tim

David Hughes
12-04-2017, 14:05
Hi,

I'm just pleased that some of us people agree with you...

Regards, David

splitimageview
12-04-2017, 15:50
Much ado about nada.

:)

Keith
12-04-2017, 15:58
If Otto Daimler was to build a horseless carriage today ... it would probably have fuel injection! lol :D

kshapero
12-04-2017, 16:01
I stand by my original post. The annoyance I'm referring to is the dishonesty in such statements.

I find it cowardly and annoying when employed in an advertising campaign.

If there really is a knowledgeable someone, or someones, saying this, list them by name and give us their quotes. Don't hide behind the "Some people are saying . . ." BS.

Best,
-TimPlease keep our forum friendly. Politics not wanted. Chill dude.

zuiko85
12-04-2017, 16:02
I've got, (somewhere around the house) a brochure by Leica from the early 90's advertising the M system. It's full of the same type of hype. 'Nothing new under the sun' seems to be as true in advertising as in many other aspects of our lives.

Probably the most appealing advertising of the last century was when DDB took on the Volkswagen account for the US market about 1959. Especially when they ran a full page in Life magazine in June of 1961 that was blank where the photo normally was. The ad copy read;

"No point showing the 62' Volkswagen, it still looks the same"

The company was horrified, paying for a full blank page in a national magazine. But that ad had the largest response of any they had ran up to that time.

splitimageview
12-04-2017, 16:05
If Otto Daimler was to build a horseless carriage today ... it would probably have fuel injection! lol :D

As long as that isn’t prefaced by “some people say,” it’s all good.

:)

CMur12
12-04-2017, 16:28
It certainly makes sense for Leica to ponder what Oskar Barnack would do with today's technology. Considering the image quality possible with 35mm film at OB's time, I think KoFe might be closer to the truth: Oskar Barnack would probably love smart phone cameras.

Leica's wording here doesn't really bother me, but I have my own triggers, so I'll empathize with Tim on that level.

- Murray

Lux Optima
12-04-2017, 16:28
If Oskar Barnack were to build a camera today it would again be a glorious camera. What else is worth any discussion? Period.

Doug
12-04-2017, 18:29
Some editing has been done in this thread to remove partisan political content, and a bit of film "religion". :eek: RFF is a non-partisan forum, so whatever politics or religion you're "for or agin" is off-topic...

kshapero
12-04-2017, 19:12
Some editing has been done in this thread to remove partisan political content, and a bit of film "religion". :eek: RFF is a non-partisan forum, so whatever politics or religion you're "for or agin" is off-topic...Thanks, appreciate it. Now back to our regularly scheduled shows. :cool:

Dirk
12-04-2017, 19:50
I stand by my original post. The annoyance I'm referring to is the dishonesty in such statements.

I find it cowardly and annoying when employed in an advertising campaign.

If there really is a knowledgeable someone, or someones, saying this, list them by name and give us their quotes. Don't hide behind the "Some people are saying . . ." BS.

Best,
-Tim

Where in the advertising industry is this NOT happening? That's how they roll. You're only now noticing?

Pioneer
12-04-2017, 19:56
I say that Oskar wouldn't bother building a camera today. He wouldn't have to.

jbharrill1
12-04-2017, 20:08
https://preview.ibb.co/e4xVhw/more_popcorn.gif (https://imgbb.com/)

fireblade
12-04-2017, 20:12
Just got an email from Leica, which started off with the following statement:

"Some people say that if Oskar Barnack were to build a camera today, it would have the APS-C format."

What People? Instead of trying to justify their decision to go with an APS-C sensor as opposed to a Full Frame sensor (which in essence is what Oscar originally designed), they pull this crap with the whole "Some people are saying . . ." BS.

I hope this is not the future of marketing, and I certainly expected more from Leica.

Best,
-Tim

You should email Leica and tell them that a long long time ago, Pinnochio and Raggedy Ann got married.

rfaspen
12-04-2017, 21:25
Some people say the ghost of Oscar is channeling through the folks at "Team Konost".

A ghost camera for sure.

Actually, I have been annoyed at Leica marketing gimmicks of late. They have gotten pretty sappy at times.

And not interested in APS-C. No longer have APS-H either (but that happened to be a darn good camera). Its all full frame and m4/3 nowadays.....too bad Oscar can't help with that. Or did he? :rolleyes:

Contarama
12-04-2017, 22:38
If Otto Daimler was to build a horseless carriage today ... it would probably have fuel injection! lol :D

Some people say it would be driverless too! :D

Godfrey
12-04-2017, 22:48
Eh? It's marketing nonsense. Just ignore and relax.

G

pepeguitarra
12-04-2017, 22:59
Nothing beats Medium Format. 6x6. or 6x7, even 6x4.5

DanskDynamit
12-05-2017, 00:16
I certainly expected more from Leica.


that is your problem.
"no expectations no disappointments"

David Hughes
12-05-2017, 01:23
If Otto Daimler was to build a horseless carriage today ... it would probably have fuel injection! lol :D

Oh dear! I thought it did have fuel injection as they followed steam practice. Carb's were invented later on as fuel injection was so unreliable then...

Sorry getting a bit pedantic.

Regards, David

David Hughes
12-05-2017, 01:30
If the usual BS in adverts annoys, then it helps to admire it as an art form, which it is. After all's said and done, it's difficult to write BS you can't be sued over and yet that gives a positive message.

Take "Some people etc... " and wonder who the people are; there only have to be a couple of them and one of them was probably someone overheard in a pub or on a forum...

My favourite entry in the BS Contest was "chocolate flavoured coating over a vanilla flavoured centre" and that left me wondering what it was that people would be eating.

Regards, David

Rob-F
12-05-2017, 03:03
My philosopher wife tells me that this type of statement is called a "counterfactual conditional (since Barnack isn't alive today);" and that by the rules of logic any conclusion drawn from a CFC is true. She doesn't actually believe that, and neither do I; it is something logicians claim. So by that logic (if it is logic), "If Oskar Barnack were alive today, he would build an APS-C" has to be true, right along with, "If Oskar Barnack were alive today, he would drive a Chevrolet" or, . . . "he would be living in Chicago" (etc.)

But I think Barnack invented the Leica when he did, because it was time for the Leica to be invented, and Barnack was of that time. Just as, telephone was invented when it was, because it was the right time for it to be invented. Was Alex Bell the only person who could have invented it? No, Elisha Gray actually beat Bell to the patent office by 24 hours. Bell got the patent because he had documented his developmental work in his lab notebook, while Gray's documentation was not good enough. If Bell hadn't come along we would still have telephones and the phone company would be "Gray telephone" instead of Bell Telephone. Think that's not true? I remember there was a "Gray System" phone company in some places when I was a kid. I remember seeing their ad in a magazine.

So here's my point: things come along when they are ready to. If not Bell, then Gray; If not Barnack, then Zeiss, or someone, who knows; but someone would have come up with a 35mm still camera, probably within three months of Barnack's.

Oh, and if Oskar Barnack were alive today, he would be a financial analyst.

jsrockit
12-05-2017, 03:33
Just got an email from Leica, which started off with the following statement:

"Some people say that if Oskar Barnack were to build a camera today, it would have the APS-C format."

What People? Instead of trying to justify their decision to go with an APS-C sensor as opposed to a Full Frame sensor (which in essence is what Oscar originally designed), they pull this crap with the whole "Some people are saying . . ." BS.

As a fan of the APSC format, I don't think it is BS. The format is the best compromise (in digital) between lens size, body size, and image quality today IMO. FF is great, especially when you need to use legacy lenses. However, modern APSC is very, very good. Fuji has proven this best and now Leica is doing the same. Look at the Ricoh GR... it's a bit long in the tooth now, but it is tiny and delivered great quality... that is the modern barnack. If Ricoh updates that with a modern sensor... wow.

sebastel
12-05-2017, 05:51
who is Otto Daimler?

Larry Cloetta
12-05-2017, 06:20
Just ....annoyed that they would lead off with "Some people say . . ." instead of ... "With an APS-C sensor you can get the same resolution as scanning a 35mm negative at 2000 dpi."

Yeah, that's certainly a more catchy lead in, sure to jump start the flagging interest of the camera buying public (which is the purpose of advertising).
I have no idea why Leica didn't use that to grab people's attention.

mdarnton
12-05-2017, 06:39
I find people who originate posts to complain about unimportant things annoying.

css9450
12-05-2017, 06:45
"They said a minivan couldn't be fun to drive..."

Same technique, no?

Ko.Fe.
12-05-2017, 07:14
As a fan of the APSC format, I don't think it is BS. The format is the best compromise (in digital) between lens size, body size, and image quality today IMO. FF is great, especially when you need to use legacy lenses. However, modern APSC is very, very good. Fuji has proven this best and now Leica is doing the same. Look at the Ricoh GR... it's a bit long in the tooth now, but it is tiny and delivered great quality... that is the modern barnack. If Ricoh updates that with a modern sensor... wow.

Exactly and especially about GRII, which is still very capable. Gives a ride to Leica X series in IQ and compactness.

Compactness and less weight this is what was driving O. Barnack. It was exactly as GR. No build-in VF and very small. It grow later on to bigger one with build-in RF and VF. Just like X grown to CL.
Barnack used 135 instead MF format. He didn't went extreme, Minox like, even if it was much more effective for his personal reason.
Same is doing the Leica. No Yashica D, but trusted and very sufficient APSC.

So, would Barnack choose APSC now? Yes. But he would design it like GRII, I guess, not CL....

ptpdprinter
12-05-2017, 07:28
If Barnack would use APS-C, then why didn't they stick with the M8? It would be interesting to look at the M9 advertising.

Ko.Fe.
12-05-2017, 07:46
If Barnack would use APS-C, then why didn't they stick with the M8? It would be interesting to look at the M9 advertising.

M8 was not APS-C.

DrMcCoy
12-05-2017, 07:53
[...] I am annoyed that Leica, (a company that has sold me many products over the years) is copying a technique made famous in the last two thousand five hundred years by every notoriously dishonest politician when they spread falsehoods and conspiracy theories.

Not to promote false equivalencies, but FTFY.

If Barnack were to design a camera today he would simply make the lightest possible interchangeable lens camera with a high quality sensor. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that he'd be most interested in developing sensor and lens technology over producing cameras themselves since that's the main weight/quality limitation of modern photography.

ruby.monkey
12-05-2017, 08:14
Not to promote false equivalencies, but FTFY.

If Barnack were to design a camera today he would simply make the lightest possible interchangeable lens camera with a high quality sensor. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that he'd be most interested in developing sensor and lens technology over producing cameras themselves since that's the main weight/quality limitation of modern photography.

I reckon he'd have added a second control dial to the Olympus E-PM2 and then called it a day.

pepeguitarra
12-05-2017, 08:35
"Before there was Pentax there was Asahiflex. Saburo Matsumoto, the founder of Asahi Kogaku, decided that he wanted to make cameras, but in a market already dominated by Nippon Kogaku (later Nikon) and Canon copies of Leica rangefinders, he decided that the SLR was the future of cameras. With only a couple of examples to draw design ideas from, he and a team of experts culled from pre-Konica Konishiroku came up with the Asahiflex after years of R & D. A breakthrough invention of his own was added in the Asahiflex II – the instant-return mirror, the first ever in an SLR." -- From Matt's Classical Cameras

Godfrey
12-05-2017, 08:45
Remember that the reason Oskar Barnack built a small camera based on cine film was to have a handy-sized strip-film exposure meter for cine work. The cine format was 18x24 mm on the 35mm film and the small camera proved to be an excellent exposure test base, but then he discovered that it proved a great handy camera for a new kind of photography. However, at the time, the 18x24mm format he deemed inadequately large to make good print enlargements up to 8x10, so he doubled the short edge and turned the camera on its side to make the standard 35mm 3:2 format.

If the films had been better at that time, or they were using decent digital capture sensors, he'd probably have stuck with the 18x24mm format for all of its characteristics that meant smaller, lighter, faster lenses.

So maybe what "some people say" is right on the money. Whomever those "people" might be. :D

G

ptpdprinter
12-05-2017, 09:49
M8 was not APS-C.
Certainly close enough for the point being made.

pagpow
12-05-2017, 10:21
My philosopher wife tells me that this type of statement is called a "counterfactual conditional (since Barnack isn't alive today);" and that by the rules of logic any conclusion drawn from a CFC is true."

This would have us conclude that All the following statements are true;

If Barnack were to build a camera today, it would have the APS-C format"
If Barnack were to build a camera today, it would not have the APS-C format"
If Barnack were to build a camera today, it would have any format except the APS-C format"
If Barnack were to build a camera today, it would not be a camera"

I trust your wife's skepticism more than the statement regarding logicians' rules.

I would be more likely to agree with the assertion that "by the rules of logic any conclusion drawn from a CFC is equally true to any other conclusion drawn from a counterfactual conditional." than to agree with the notion that simply preceding any statement with a counterfactual conditional makes it true.

If that were correct, I would have an easier time with excused absences.

jsrockit
12-05-2017, 12:34
M8 was not APS-C.

Ok, APS-H....

fireblade
12-05-2017, 13:19
I just paid a witch to talk to Oskar...he said he loves the Casio QV-2900UX. :D

css9450
12-05-2017, 13:44
Oskar would have overwhelmingly embraced using smartphones for photography.

Chris101
12-05-2017, 15:49
I've got, (somewhere around the house) a brochure by Leica from the early 90's advertising the M system. It's full of the same type of hype. 'Nothing new under the sun' seems to be as true in advertising as in many other aspects of our lives.

Probably the most appealing advertising of the last century was when DDB took on the Volkswagen account for the US market about 1959. Especially when they ran a full page in Life magazine in June of 1961 that was blank where the photo normally was. The ad copy read;

"No point showing the 62' Volkswagen, it still looks the same"

The company was horrified, paying for a full blank page in a national magazine. But that ad had the largest response of any they had ran up to that time.

Actually the 62 had slightly larger tail lights than the 61, and added a "sissy bar" above the glove compartment.

Doncha just HATE IT when they cover up such glaring details.

jaapv
12-29-2017, 06:37
I just paid a witch to talk to Oskar...he said he loves the Casio QV-2900UX. :DDo you mean Steve Huff? He is in contact I understand.

Steve M.
12-29-2017, 08:54
I'm surprised that you're surprised. Marketing (advertising) is basically the business of lying to people to get them to buy a product that doesn't do what they say it does. A good product simply needs to be effectively "out there" in order to succeed, but if all you're selling is sizzle, then things are very different. I worked many years in marketing, including a stint as the Director of Marketing for the San Francisco Ballet, and the product, if it's good, sells itself. Lie to people and they won't buy tickets for next season. We had a good reputation and outstanding dancers, so it was just a matter of not screwing things up in order to have a successful season. If the product is innovative and new, then best to make sure it is working, and market it properly to the right target demographic.

Out to Lunch
12-29-2017, 09:09
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFCMhSzeGuA

George Carlin on advertising and marketing.

fotomeow
12-29-2017, 09:27
If you read the article I linked to, you would see that "Some people are saying . . ." is a way of spreading falsehoods, lies, and innuendo, without taking responsibility for spreading those falsehoods, lies, and innuendo.

I couldn't care less whether the new Leica camera is better or worse than anything else on the market. I have a problem with Leica using the "Some people are saying . . ." marketing ploy to justify their decision to go APS-C sensor instead of Full Frame. Why can't they be up front in explaining their reasoning, reasoning I don't know enough about to agree with or not. What I find annoying is couching it in the "Some people say . . ." language.

Best,
-Tim

Ya Tim, at best they are cowards in my book. They manipulate customers for money while concurrently touting their aristocratic “pedigree” and “legacy”.

The other issue is that all corporations do this in our post-truth world, so it is not specific to Leica. Bc banks and corps rule the world, not people, I’m afraid.

And yes, I own Leica, but I know what I’m getting myself into.
I use what works for me (camera, lenses) but leave the rest in the trash(stupid adverts)

Richard G
12-29-2017, 09:49
If Oskar spent a month here with me he would be fascinated with digital and probably love the Monochrom and my M9-P. But he would most admire the Hasselblad, and when offered to go home with a pick of any of my cameras, he’d take the IIIf in a heartbeat.

noisycheese
01-09-2018, 19:48
Let us cast aside nonsense, speculation and petty bickering and get to the heart of the matter: If Oskar Barnack were to build a camera today, how many angels could dance on the head of a pin holding one? :rolleyes:

Dpingr1
01-09-2018, 20:29
If Oskar Barnack built a camera today, I'd be very surprised.