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View Full Version : Leica CL & Elmarit to be announced on 11/21/17


danielsterno
11-19-2017, 14:21
https://leicarumors.com/2017/11/19/leica-cl-mirrorless-camera-and-elmarit-tl-18mm-f2-8-asph-lens-to-be-announced-on-november-21st.aspx/

Dan Daniel
11-19-2017, 14:41
Oh great, they took a cue from Olympus and brought back the exact name of a 40-50 year old model so now web and forum searches will be a mess, and conversations will be always subject to miscommunication over whether the topic is analog or digital. Can't they let their little Minolta love child rest in peace???

css9450
11-19-2017, 15:59
I suppose I'll have to be more specific when I post pics from my CL... And the CL is in my signature too. No, its not the digital mirrorless version.

Didn't Zeiss create similar confusion when they made the Zeiss Ikon? The "new" Zeiss Ikon, not the numerous vintage ones available all over Ebay.

aizan
11-19-2017, 15:59
they couldn’t come up with a less bumpy top plate? 80% hate, 20% love.

DrMcCoy
11-19-2017, 16:06
aps-c

whyyyyyyyyyyy

BillBingham2
11-19-2017, 17:28
While the CL/CLE has a cult following, rightly so IMHO, if what's picture in the link is accurate..........meh

Fuji XE-3 Shōsha (勝者) (Winner)

B2 (;->

Corran
11-19-2017, 17:35
$4,000? Where's the market for this?

Reminds me of the Nikon Coolpix A ($1000 when released).

jsrockit
11-19-2017, 17:59
$4,000? Where's the market for this?


In their boutique shops... and it will sell.

Robert Lai
11-19-2017, 18:16
The name is going to create a lot of confusion.
Just like the M-P and the MP (film camera).

I wonder when they're going to call the next boring digital camera the Leica "M3"?

zuiko85
11-19-2017, 18:50
I was excited by the thread title, "great, they are reintroducing the classic compact film Leica". Then, as soon as I saw what the new 'CL' was, I lost all interest.

farlymac
11-19-2017, 19:15
Maybe they should have called it the 3L, because it does have a somewhat Barnack looking body.

PF

x-ray
11-19-2017, 19:45
Not after the terrible customer service and pathetic repair service I experienced with the M9 I owned. If I wanted a mirror less in apsc I'd buy a Fuji and lenses or FF a Sony and lenses.

Never will buy another Leica digital product or new analog item.

Corran
11-19-2017, 19:50
In their boutique shops... and it will sell.

Of course it will because "Red Dot."

Nikon's Coolpix A did not sell.

bayernfan
11-19-2017, 20:04
looks remarkably similar to my 1f. where is CL coming from??

DanskDynamit
11-20-2017, 00:34
at least they didn't call it "Pajero"
(some will understand)

santino
11-20-2017, 00:56
another camera the world doesn't need.

B-9
11-20-2017, 03:00
Looks like a X2 with its flash stuck open.

Why Leica! Why!

I agree should have been a 3L or TL3

jsrockit
11-20-2017, 05:09
another camera the world doesn't need.

Ok, but that is all cameras then...

santino
11-20-2017, 07:17
Yeah, you still can paint...

PatrickT
11-20-2017, 07:56
What is the real differentiation between this new camera and the existing TL? I realize the TL doesn't have a built-in viewfinder (although an add on EVF is available) and is quite modern in its look and control scheme. Just seems weird to me to produce the same product with a few different "features".

I'll be honest, when I read digital CL, I was thinking about (and hoping for) a cheaper full-frame Leica M :(

jsrockit
11-20-2017, 08:15
What is the real differentiation between this new camera and the existing TL? I realize the TL doesn't have a built-in viewfinder (although an add on EVF is available) and is quite modern in its look and control scheme. Just seems weird to me to produce the same product with a few different "features".

Not much but enough to make it seem a little more traditional.

I'll be honest, when I read digital CL, I was thinking about (and hoping for) a cheaper full-frame Leica M :(

Yeah this continues to be everyone's dream... but it is never happening. Cheap and Leica M are not synonymous.

x-ray
11-20-2017, 09:04
Your experience is the first thing I thought of when I saw this.

Or just buy something else.

Precisely what I did. It amazes me that people will buy from a company with that abuses customers like Leica does. Not my problem.

Ko.Fe.
11-20-2017, 09:23
Every new rumor or actual product from Leica Camera AG generates exactly same reaction.
Which is "Leica is bad in quality and awful in service, but expensive".

How it is different from many other expressive and nice objects? Landrover comes to my mind. Same prestige, same pleasure, same "quality", same "service". But people keep on buying it, for prestige, pleasure and few for actual hard use. Just like with Leica. :)

Cheap Leica means MiC. For labor and parts. As of now it means working fine, service is in quick shoveling of parts and it could be made in millions. Do you really need this Leica? Why? Want to buy from Amazon or even Walmart?

Emile de Leon
11-20-2017, 09:35
They could have at least gold plated it...***...were they thinkin..? No ones gonna buy it...w/o gold plating..

brennanphotoguy
11-20-2017, 09:38
Every new rumor or actual product from Leica Camera AG generates exactly same reaction.
Which is "Leica is bad in quality and awful in service, but expensive".

How it is different from many other expressive and nice objects? Landrover comes to my mind. Same prestige, same pleasure, same "quality", same "service". But people keep on buying it, for prestige, pleasure and few for actual hard use. Just like with Leica. :)

Cheap Leica means MiC. For labor and parts. As of now it means working fine, service is in quick shoveling of parts and it could be made in millions. Do you really need this Leica? Why? Want to buy from Amazon or even Walmart?

Because people usually don't complain much when there is a warranty attached to it. Also, there are many very expensive things out there that do perform and hold up will over time. The 911 isn't a cheap car in any spec but they are very reliable. Toyota trucks and SUVs from 10 years ago are still over $20k with over 100k miles because they are reliable. The problem with Leica is they make a product that is extremely similar to others on the market with well below average customer support with well above average prices.

x-ray
11-20-2017, 09:52
Because people usually don't complain much when there is a warranty attached to it. Also, there are many very expensive things out there that do perform and hold up will over time. The 911 isn't a cheap car in any spec but they are very reliable. Toyota trucks and SUVs from 10 years ago are still over $20k with over 100k miles because they are reliable. The problem with Leica is they make a product that is extremely similar to others on the market with well below average customer support with well above average prices.

Porsche had it problems too. Remember the class action lawsuit over the intermediate shaft bearing failure. Porsche did an engine redesign and put a copy machine bearing in supporting the intermediate shaft. Failure of the bearing resulted in total destruction of the engine. This problem occurred in engines generally having less than 40,000 miles. It took a class action lawsuit to get Porsche to make good on replacing engines that had been trashed.

I'm an ex Porsche owner that was very lucky with no issues in over 125,000 miles but I backed out of buying another new one last year because of the way they treated customers. If I'm spending $150,000 for something I expect the company to stand behind it without a fight. Same goes for Leica.

benlees
11-20-2017, 10:22
And Toyota has had lots of engine sludge problems over the years. Besides the point, though. Except for a discussion on perceived ideas and the marketplace...

What does this new Leica bring to the table of 24MP interchangeable lens aps-c cameras? Just a red dot. That might be enough!

danielsterno
11-20-2017, 14:47
to me its Leica's lack of competitive ingenuity in 2017, they need a Steve Jobs type who understands their products and brand AND who understands who their customer is, what that customer wants and how to beat the Sony/Fuji competition for that very same market niche! And at a realistic price.....

Huss
11-20-2017, 15:11
Your experience is the first thing I thought of when I saw this.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to book a sensor replacement at the time of purchase, so you will be 'in the queue' when it breaks, and have a chance of getting the camera back within nine months?

Or just buy something else.


Hey, only 1% will have sensor failure! Just like what someone claimed that's what Leica told them about the M9!

x-ray
11-20-2017, 15:36
Hey, only 1% will have sensor failure! Just like what someone claimed that's what Leica told them about the M9!

Wouldn't you love to know the true numbers.

With my M9 the sensor failed causing magenta splotches in the image. It wasn't corrosion as most were. My problem started about three months or so after buying it new. Then I started having RF problems that required severAl trips back and a problem with my 90 Apo that worked perfectly on my film bodies but wouldn't work with my M9. It doesn't make sense because it's just a mechanical linkage and you'd think if it worked on 3 M film bodies it'd work on the M9. All other lenses worked on both film and digital except the 90. I forced Leica to replace it and it worked perfectly on the M9 after that. ???

Emile de Leon
11-20-2017, 16:19
Huss..you got that backwards...
Its a 99% failure rate..
And a 1%..well...you know...

jsrockit
11-20-2017, 16:36
to me its Leica's lack of competitive ingenuity in 2017, they need a Steve Jobs type who understands their products and brand AND who understands who their customer is, what that customer wants and how to beat the Sony/Fuji competition for that very same market niche! And at a realistic price.....

Uhmmm, I think they know their customers very well and that's why they opened boutique stores. If you've ever experienced a Leica boutique store, you'd know this product is perfect for them. I think many of us think Leica caters to us... that we are their target customer. However, many of us are not... and Sony and Fuji are not its competition. Luxury brands are its competition. Sure, we love the M. We love the Leica of old. But Leica is never going to compete on price with mass produced products.

JamesFromSydney
11-20-2017, 16:54
I wonder how it will compare to the x70, at 5x the cost.

Rob-F
11-20-2017, 17:11
No thanks, I'm good. I'm happy with my Fuji X20 and my D-Lux 6.

aizan
11-20-2017, 17:39
But Leica is never going to compete on price with mass produced products.

leicas are mass produced, and who knows, maybe someday its strategy will change and it will return to being a non-luxury brand.

Godfrey
11-20-2017, 18:37
The rumored camera looks nice, a TL model with built in viewfinder and a more 'standard' control setup. Looks like it will be a nice camera, particularly if it can use all the existing TL lenses.

Of course it's expensive ... did you really think they'd sell it for Fuji prices? Who cares? If you can only afford the Fuji, buy the Fuji.

G

Corran
11-20-2017, 20:03
If you can only afford the Fuji, buy the Fuji.

Yeah, screw the plebs who can't afford the Red Dot, right?

Who cares what the camera brings to the table in terms of capabilities or quality of output - if you've got the money, obviously you buy the Leica. A Fuji is just so pedestrian.

FWIW I wouldn't buy either.

jazzwave
11-20-2017, 21:03
It's called Leica IIIdi ...:D


~ron~

Monochrom_User
11-20-2017, 21:07
leicas are mass produced, and who knows, maybe someday its strategy will change and it will return to being a non-luxury brand.

seeing as how the Leica is only producing M10 bodies at a rate of 40-150/week, I wouldn't say they are mass producing the good stuff.

Archlich
11-20-2017, 22:49
The top LCD looks neat. Hope we could see it on the X-Pro 3.

cnphoto
11-21-2017, 02:02
I wonder if it's part manufactured / designed by Panasonic? Lens finish & style looks very Panasonic-ish... seeing as, stylistically, the Pana versions are always more ugly I wonder how bad that will look :D

David Hughes
11-21-2017, 02:04
In their boutique shops... and it will sell.


And (or but) just think of the bids proper CL's will get if put up for sale at the right moment...


Regards, David

Godfrey
11-21-2017, 04:44
Yeah, screw the plebs who can't afford the Red Dot, right?

Who cares what the camera brings to the table in terms of capabilities or quality of output - if you've got the money, obviously you buy the Leica. A Fuji is just so pedestrian.

FWIW I wouldn't buy either.

Yes, screw all the people who desperately want a Leica at a Fuji price. Who cares about them? All they do is complain anyway.

I've had the luxury of buying almost any camera I wanted over the past fifty years. I buy Leicas because they work very well, they keep working well, they hold their value well, and I've had very few to no problems with them. When I have had problems, Leica has taken care of them efficiently for me. I don't really care much whether Leica innovates all the time ... I don't buy a camera to show off to other photographers what new features it has. I buy a camera to make photographs with, and my needs for doing that haven't changed in many many years.

mpaniagua
11-21-2017, 07:27
Official links

https://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-APS-C/Leica-CL

https://leicarumors.com/2017/11/21/leica-cl-camera-and-elmarit-tl-18mm-f2-8-asph-lens-officially-announced.aspx/

ptpdprinter
11-21-2017, 07:29
Yes, screw all the people who desperately want a Leica at a Fuji price. Who cares about them? All they do is complain anyway.

I've had the luxury of buying almost any camera I wanted over the past fifty years. I buy Leicas because they work very well, they keep working well, they hold their value well, and I've had very few to no problems with them. When I have had problems, Leica has taken care of them efficiently for me. I don't really care much whether Leica innovates all the time ... I don't buy a camera to show off to other photographers what new features it has. I buy a camera to make photographs with, and my needs for doing that haven't changed in many many years.

Like Godfrey, I buy a camera to make photographs with. And I'll point out a camera that is silly expensive for what it does. Doesn't mean I desperately want a Leica at a Fuji price. Leica makes wonderful rangefinder cameras. It's other offerings are flotsom and jetsam.

Huss
11-21-2017, 08:00
When I have had problems, Leica has taken care of them efficiently for me.

So I assume you never had a sensor failure ?

Corran
11-21-2017, 08:05
Like Godfrey, I buy a camera to make photographs with. And I'll point out a camera that is silly expensive for what it does. Doesn't mean I desperately want a Leica at a Fuji price. Leica makes a wonderful rangefinder cameras. It's other offerings are flotsom and jetsam.

Yes, that's what I was getting at.

Since this camera is not a rangefinder, my question is always "what does this bring to the table that other cameras do not?"

As for this statement:

I buy Leicas because they work very well, they keep working well, they hold their value well, and I've had very few to no problems with them.

Well I think it's demonstrably false to say that Leica cameras "keep working well" in the digital age. While maybe you've been lucky (or upgraded fast enough to avoid issues) the M8/M9 have proven to not exactly be long-lasting tools. Yes they do hold their value, primarily due to the cache of the brand, not the quality. The long-term viability of any digital camera has not been proven - we'll see.

I bought an M9 because it's a digital RF. Otherwise there is not much of an argument to own one IMO.

Huss
11-21-2017, 08:22
I don't think it's ugly at all, I think it looks nice and stylish. If this is ugly, point out a Japanese digi cam that is good looking. It's not as nice looking as an M, but what is?
:)

This bit sells it for me as I would use it with mf Leica lenses:


"I made some detailed comparisons between the Fuji X-T2, the Leica M10, SL and the CL using the new version of the 28 M Summicron Asph and the 50 M Summilux Asph. Images from the CL did very well with both lenses with minimum vignetting and no visible smearing. Very comparable to those from the Leica SL and nearly as good as those from the Leica M10. In comparison, the Fuji images were poor, even on the 50 ‘lux; the centre was sharp, but smearing was very evident away from the centre of the image. Leica have obviously worked hard to make the camera do well with M lenses.

I have had a long discussion with Sean Reid at ReidReviews about this and he agrees with me. He feels that the issue is largely to do with the thickness of the cover glass (the CL does not have an AA filter). Of course, Fujifilm have other priorities, and you wouldn’t expect them to spend a lot of time and money compromising their sensor design for other manufacturers to sell more lenses!"

The price of $2800 puts it close to the used price of the M240. But this thing is smaller, is new, has a higher max shutter speed of 1/8000 sec for all those daylight wide open shooting junkies, and has a warranty.


One thing, Slack mentions "It has a built in EVF (not the same as the Visoflex) ", yet Leica's specs show it has the same resolution as the Visoflex, which is 2.4-ish mp which is about half of the SL. I find it hard to believe it is not the same as offered with the M10. It is also much less than the 3.7mp offered in the Q. The Leica Q is much more expensive (but that price includes the 28mm lens and is a FF camera), but it still is disappointing that this all new Leica camera gets some seriously old tech inside it. And this is not some innocuous that most wouldn't 'see', this is the viewfinder.
And herein lies the rub that I have with new digital Leica cameras. They are always way behind the curve with the latest tech. They have it (see the vf in the Q and the SL), but choose to introduce new models with tech that is 5 years old. No Japanese mfg would ever do that. They wouldn't survive. But Leica does that because, unfortunately, people buy them - let's be honest here - because of the badge.

I was 'this close' to considering this CL due to its size and lens compatibility with my M glass. But seeing that EVF in it. What a disappointment.

Corran
11-21-2017, 09:36
CL "preview" video. The first 30 seconds in this, ha!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-oNfEnIMYs

Ko.Fe.
11-21-2017, 10:09
... I don't buy a camera to show off to other photographers what new features it has. I buy a camera to make photographs with, and my needs for doing that haven't changed in many many years...

I respect you for buying several Leica cameras since I'm on this forum. You gave great examples from them and some of them have great reviews from you here. I was just re-reading your X review here recently.

Leica makes cameras which are different or slightly, but enough different from another brands. To me for sure. And I think, here is nothing to hide among us. Most of us here doing the same thing. Buying and trying how it is for making photographs with.

But " I buy a camera to make photographs with" doesn't need to be performed and reported every or other year, if it is strictly to make photographs. IMO. I get M-E one year ago and it still growing on me. :)

danielsterno
11-21-2017, 10:52
huff review https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_oxt24fT84

Ken Ford
11-21-2017, 12:36
The venom constantly thrown at Leica on this forum is astonishing. Can’t people not care for things without denigrating them?

IMO this is what the TL should have been from day one, but I doubt the readily available EVF tech was this refined at that point. I’m not going to buy one (quite happy with my Fuji gear, thank you) but I wouldn’t mind a CL and lenses if the budget were available.

Emile de Leon
11-21-2017, 12:56
It actually looks like a nifty camera...
If they put better video in there..and a tilty screen...I might consider it...as it is good w/M lenses...
Leica is always giving us what seems to be..transition cameras..never 100% likeable..always something missing..always something lacking...
as in....too fat...too heavy..video not up to par...failed parts..failed service..the list goes on..

Godfrey
11-21-2017, 13:41
So I assume you never had a sensor failure ?

Yes, I had a sensor failure with my M9 after one and a half years using it. I sent it in, they told me it needed replacement and offered me an excellent trade-in for the M-P 240. I did that and had my new camera shortly thereafter. Total time: 4 weeks from end to end. I was uninterested in repairing the M9. It was about my least favorite Leica of all the Leica cameras I've owned.

It should be noted that the M9 sensor problem never stopped my using the camera, and the M9 family sensors were/are the only sensor failures in Leica's digital camera history. None of the other digital Leica models have ever had sensor failures of any kind that I'm aware of. It was/is the first full frame Leica M digital camera ... Prior to it, the notion of building a full frame digital M was largely considered nearly impossible. I guess it was pretty hard at that. :D

I went through an M9, M-P and M-D 262. I'm content and happy with the M-D.
I also went through an X2 and an X typ 111 ... both good, the latter better than the former, but ultimately fixed lens point and shoots don't do it for me is what I decided. I bought the SL one month after the Nikon D750 ... the Nikon never got used again.

My X2 had a four way controller problem, Leica fixed that in three-four weeks. The M9 had the sensor corrosion problem, I traded it for the M-P. That took four weeks as well. Just normal problems and normal resolution. My film Leicas have required a CLA, my older lenses have needed CLA too. Again, just normal stuff.

I've sold all my other digital cameras and have just the M-D and SL now. I have absolutely zero interest in buying anything else at this point. These two cameras complement each other and just work and work and work. I still have my favorite Leicaflex SL and M4-2 as well. All totally reliable...

If I weren't so satisfied with what I have now, the CL would be a natural for me. If the T/TL had been this when it came out, I'd have sold the M9 and gone this way then. But I am satisfied and don't need anything beyond what I have. I don't need any newer tech than what i already have, I have all the lenses I need/want. There's no reason for me to want anything else.

G

DougFord
11-21-2017, 14:05
Reckon they have the fully digital M surrounded now. Maybe another couple of years.
I'm digging the design of this camera. Not a customer though. I'm up here in the bleacher seats.
Once the thing is out in the wild for a piece I guess we'll get a better understanding of its abilities as compared to the competition.

danielsterno
11-21-2017, 14:31
I can make the CL work, I like the pancake 18mm, despite preferring 35 & 50mm, rented a leica Q and by the end of the week I enjoyed the 28mm and loved the Q but not the price thus purchased the 100f

ptpdprinter
11-21-2017, 14:40
None of the other digital Leica models have ever had sensor failures of any kind that I'm aware of.The M8 sensor didn't fail; it was defective from the outset, and you had to use special filters over the lenses to get acceptable color. The M9 and MM sensors corrode, and you have to wait a long time to get them repaired, particularly for the MM. Not a problem if you want to trade up ($2500-$3500) or you have already bought newer bodies ($5500-$6500) so you have backups. In those cases, having money is clearly an advantage, and can ease the pain. Not everyone does. I believe the sensors beginning with the 240 have been problem free.

David Hughes
11-21-2017, 15:15
I guess I'll sit on the fence for a while. Firstly, about Leica and almost identical cameras with different badges; I had the Panasonic LX2 and the Leica D-Lux 3 for a while and used them to compare output and couldn't see any difference in terms of use, prints and on screen pictures. The Leica's case was superior and that decided things for me.

Secondly, problems; well I had this Digilux 2 and the sensor failed dramatically but was replaced after a few weeks (and I still have the camera and still like it). And the sensor in my M9 was replaced too...

I still like their digital and film cameras but I'm not going to run out and buy anything just because it's new. Perhaps when I need one and nothing else will do...

Regards, David

B-9
11-21-2017, 15:26
Kai (former DigitalRev frontman) already has a 10 minute CL review on YouTube posted today.

It looks thrown together from a spare parts bin.

The EVF looks like a hot glue job with a Visoflex.

Overall it really appears to be a cobbled mess of a Leica.

Just my opinion!

Huss
11-21-2017, 15:46
Yes, I had a sensor failure with my M9 after one and a half years using it. I sent it in, they told me it needed replacement and offered me an excellent trade-in for the M-P 240. I did that and had my new camera shortly thereafter. Total time: 4 weeks from end to end. I was uninterested in repairing the M9. It was about my least favorite Leica of all the Leica cameras I've owned.

You know you're living in LaLa Leica Land when good service is a 4 week delay, then a $3000 payment to move to a different camera!

(full disclosure - I too live there...)

aizan
11-21-2017, 16:31
bear with me as i come to grips with what the hell they were thinking when they designed the top plate.

first, we have to admit that rangefinder-style cameras with built-in evfs like the fuji x-e3 and sony a6500 are a little awkward conceptually because they are affectations. they imitate the form factor of rangefinders even though they don’t have a reverse Galilean viewfinder in the corner. they are better for keeping nose grease off the screen and are less intimidating to your subjects, but still.

although the screwmount bodies are much less streamlined than the m-mount bodies, they did have a functional aesthetic. in the context of imitative designs, the more honest, manly man’s approach is to start with a plain block and plop the extra pieces (evf, flash shoe, dials) on top.

hence, this is the new cl’s way of distinguishing itself from similar cameras. it is a mirrorless camera with a built-in evf in the corner that is resolutely not rangefinder-style. it’s simultaneously more primitive and modern than its competitors that have a flat top plate.

Al Patterson
11-21-2017, 16:47
Now if I can use my 40mm Summicron-C with it....

And I hit the lottery.

Godfrey
11-21-2017, 16:47
The M8 sensor didn't fail; it was defective from the outset, and you had to use special filters over the lenses to get acceptable color. The M9 and MM sensors corrode, and you have to wait a long time to get them repaired, particularly for the MM. Not a problem if you want to trade up ($2500-$3500) or you have already bought newer bodies ($5500-$6500) so you have backups. In those cases, having money is clearly an advantage, and can ease the pain. Not everyone does. I believe the sensors beginning with the 240 have been problem free.

Color issues are not the same as a sensor failure—MANY cameras have had problematic color problems, I wouldnt single out Leica on that score. M9 family (including the MM) are the only sensor failure problems in Leica's digital camera history. (I seem to recall early M9s sometimes had sensor cracking as well as the corrosion problem that showed up some years later.)

What's remarkable is that Leica is offering a sensor replacement at all. If it were Nikon or Canon, they'd offer a discounted upgrade to the next model only, I believe. This makes more sense to me: Why support already obsolete technology with more obsolete technology? Remember that the M9 was already obsoleted by the typ 240 for over a year before the sensor corrosion issues even surfaced. It probably would be better if they'd done that rather than offer replacements, the grousing wouldn't be any less but more of the audience would have been moved to more current technology by now.

I have no real love for the M9 at all, and I don't really care what it costs. It was simply the first full frame M ... not the greatest. Analogously, not every Porsche is a timeless classic: there are some solid pieces of junk even in other high-end product lines. Do we lambaste Porsche every time they introduce a new car because of it? Well, maybe the Porsche aficionado purists do, who who cares about them either?

For some reason, all'y'all seem to want a Leica regardless, and yet you choose to whine and moan about the price, the service, the design, ad nauseam ... continuously. Why? If you really don't care and you consider them archaic, obsolete items of non-interest, why don't you just chuckle when you see a product announcement and then go on to the latest camera du jour that you like?

I like the CL ... If I didn't already have everything I needed or wanted, I'd buy one. I don't need to buy everything I like, I don't want everything I like. If I did, I'd need to rent another house to hold all the stuff I'd have acquired and would still have to work because I couldn't afford it all if I didn't.

G

Godfrey
11-21-2017, 16:51
You know you're living in LaLa Leica Land when good service is a 4 week delay, then a $3000 payment to move to a different camera!

(full disclosure - I too live there...)

All my other cameras that have needed manufacturer service took 4 weeks anyway, Huss. I chose to move to a different camera ... it wasn't required. You, like me, have more than enough cameras normally that if a camera is off waiting for parts for a few months, it's not a problem.

Note that the camera worked fine still, though, and I could have had them ship it back to me while waiting for the replacement sensor to come in, while still using it. It would have required some more cleanup processing, that's all. Big Ffing deal. :)

G

Godfrey
11-21-2017, 16:56
Now if I can use my 40mm Summicron-C with it....

And I hit the lottery.

You can certainly use the 40mm Summicron with it as long as the reduced (60mm equivalent) FoV isn't a problem for you. To get the same FoV on a 1.5x crop sensor, you'll need a 25-27mm lens.

Regards hitting the lottery ... putting ten dollars a week into a piggy bank will probably net you the required money faster than spending a couple of dollars a week on the lottery. The odds of winning the lottery are so low it's more likely you'll be able to walk to the Moon than hit a $5000 jackpot. :D

ptpdprinter
11-21-2017, 17:10
Regards hitting the lottery ... putting ten dollars a week into a piggy bank will probably net you the required money faster than spending a couple of dollars a week on the lottery. The odds of winning the lottery are so low it's more likely you'll be able to walk to the Moon than hit a $5000 jackpot. :D
Buy all means put $10 a week aside and in 7-8 years you'll be able to buy the CL and 18mm lens. Still, it will be quicker than the lottery.

Huss
11-21-2017, 17:22
Buy all means put $10 a week aside and in 7-8 years you'll be able to buy the CL and 18mm lens. Still, it will be quicker than the lottery.

More like 2-3 years on the used market.
:D

Rob-F
11-21-2017, 19:26
seeing as how the Leica is only producing M10 bodies at a rate of 40-150/week, I wouldn't say they are mass producing the good stuff.

40 to 150 a week. Any info on how many hours a day, and how many days per week? It would be interesting to know the rate of M10s per hour, and how many people work on the production line.

Ko.Fe.
11-21-2017, 19:41
The M8 sensor didn't fail; it was defective from the outset, and you had to use special filters over the lenses to get acceptable color. The M9 and MM sensors corrode, and you have to wait a long time to get them repaired, particularly for the MM. Not a problem if you want to trade up ($2500-$3500) or you have already bought newer bodies ($5500-$6500) so you have backups. In those cases, having money is clearly an advantage, and can ease the pain. Not everyone does. I believe the sensors beginning with the 240 have been problem free.

S has cracked sensors.

michaelwj
11-21-2017, 19:42
Anyway, back the CL...

I think it looks pretty neat. I like the dials and the LCD between them. With the 18/2.8 it's a nice small package. I'd get one if I was after a digital mirrorless camera, and had the $ to blow on one. But our AC just broke so it'll need replacing before Xmas for nearly the cost of a CL :(

taemo
11-21-2017, 19:57
I dont know why people are dissing the CL, I actually really like it.
Looks like the Fuji X-E3 but cleaner.

Was so impressed that I was almost tempted on getting one until I saw the price.

If money was not an option and happy with APS-C, I would go for this over Fuji X series

B-9
11-21-2017, 19:59
40 to 150 a week. Any info on how many hours a day, and how many days per week? It would be interesting to know the rate of M10s per hour, and how many people work on the production line.

+1

Curious

Archiver
11-21-2017, 22:28
Looks pretty darn fun to me. Pricewise, not so fun, but it may be a good replacement for the Ricoh GXR when it goes the way of all flesh. In a year or two there will be some good secondhand units for sale, which would be the most cost-effective way for me to get one.

As for the EVF hump - the Zeiss Ikon has a viewfinder hump, and no one complains about that. It was necessary to accommodate the larger VF in both cases. And doesn't the Olympus Pen-F have an EVF bump as well?

jaapv
11-22-2017, 05:48
Olympus= Micro 4/3rds ---> more space in the body.

jaapv
11-22-2017, 05:52
Color issues are not the same as a sensor failure—MANY cameras have had problematic color problems, I wouldnt single out Leica on that score. M9 family (including the MM) are the only sensor failure problems in Leica's digital camera history. (I seem to recall early M9s sometimes had sensor cracking as well as the corrosion problem that showed up some years later.)

What's remarkable is that Leica is offering a sensor replacement at all. If it were Nikon or Canon, they'd offer a discounted upgrade to the next model only, I believe. This makes more sense to me: Why support already obsolete technology with more obsolete technology? Remember that the M9 was already obsoleted by the typ 240 for over a year before the sensor corrosion issues even surfaced. It probably would be better if they'd done that rather than offer replacements, the grousing wouldn't be any less but more of the audience would have been moved to more current technology by now.

I have no real love for the M9 at all, and I don't really care what it costs. It was simply the first full frame M ... not the greatest. Analogously, not every Porsche is a timeless classic: there are some solid pieces of junk even in other high-end product lines. Do we lambaste Porsche every time they introduce a new car because of it? Well, maybe the Porsche aficionado purists do, who who cares about them either?

For some reason, all'y'all seem to want a Leica regardless, and yet you choose to whine and moan about the price, the service, the design, ad nauseam ... continuously. Why? If you really don't care and you consider them archaic, obsolete items of non-interest, why don't you just chuckle when you see a product announcement and then go on to the latest camera du jour that you like?

I like the CL ... If I didn't already have everything I needed or wanted, I'd buy one. I don't need to buy everything I like, I don't want everything I like. If I did, I'd need to rent another house to hold all the stuff I'd have acquired and would still have to work because I couldn't afford it all if I didn't.

G
ALL Digilux2 sensors failed - the sensors were by Sony, the cameras built by Panasonic. Leica replaced them for free for twelve years...

jaapv
11-22-2017, 05:55
Kai (former DigitalRev frontman) already has a 10 minute CL review on YouTube posted today.

It looks thrown together from a spare parts bin.

The EVF looks like a hot glue job with a Visoflex.

Overall it really appears to be a cobbled mess of a Leica.

Just my opinion!

And a rather unusual opinion. The camera has been received better by reviewers, bloggers and Internet fora than the last six releases by Leica.

jaapv
11-22-2017, 05:58
I wonder if it's part manufactured / designed by Panasonic? Lens finish & style looks very Panasonic-ish... seeing as, stylistically, the Pana versions are always more ugly I wonder how bad that will look :D

There will be no Panasonic version, it is purely by Leica. However, Panasonic and Leica cooperate strongly on technical matters. The 15 mm lens does look a lot like the 14 mm by Panasonic, but it cannot be the same, as it is for a different sensor format. However, Panasonic, in turn, cooperated with Leica to design their lens.

Landberg
11-22-2017, 06:00
The new Leica CL is the Leica i have been waiting for. BUT, its to late. I think that a lot of people have already gone for Fuji or micro 4/3 and are happy. I would never trade my X-pro2 for the Leica CL. I bought a brand new Leica M digital 2 years ago and that was not worth the money. I may have bought the CL (if it would have been around) instead 2 years ago, MAYBE. but now? No way, it's to late. It has nothing to offer that my fuji and film Leica cant handle.

jaapv
11-22-2017, 06:01
I don't think it's ugly at all, I think it looks nice and stylish. If this is ugly, point out a Japanese digi cam that is good looking. It's not as nice looking as an M, but what is?
:)

This bit sells it for me as I would use it with mf Leica lenses:


"I made some detailed comparisons between the Fuji X-T2, the Leica M10, SL and the CL using the new version of the 28 M Summicron Asph and the 50 M Summilux Asph. Images from the CL did very well with both lenses with minimum vignetting and no visible smearing. Very comparable to those from the Leica SL and nearly as good as those from the Leica M10. In comparison, the Fuji images were poor, even on the 50 ‘lux; the centre was sharp, but smearing was very evident away from the centre of the image. Leica have obviously worked hard to make the camera do well with M lenses.

I have had a long discussion with Sean Reid at ReidReviews about this and he agrees with me. He feels that the issue is largely to do with the thickness of the cover glass (the CL does not have an AA filter). Of course, Fujifilm have other priorities, and you wouldn’t expect them to spend a lot of time and money compromising their sensor design for other manufacturers to sell more lenses!"

The price of $2800 puts it close to the used price of the M240. But this thing is smaller, is new, has a higher max shutter speed of 1/8000 sec for all those daylight wide open shooting junkies, and has a warranty.


One thing, Slack mentions "It has a built in EVF (not the same as the Visoflex) ", yet Leica's specs show it has the same resolution as the Visoflex, which is 2.4-ish mp which is about half of the SL. I find it hard to believe it is not the same as offered with the M10. It is also much less than the 3.7mp offered in the Q. The Leica Q is much more expensive (but that price includes the 28mm lens and is a FF camera), but it still is disappointing that this all new Leica camera gets some seriously old tech inside it. And this is not some innocuous that most wouldn't 'see', this is the viewfinder.
And herein lies the rub that I have with new digital Leica cameras. They are always way behind the curve with the latest tech. They have it (see the vf in the Q and the SL), but choose to introduce new models with tech that is 5 years old. No Japanese mfg would ever do that. They wouldn't survive. But Leica does that because, unfortunately, people buy them - let's be honest here - because of the badge.

I was 'this close' to considering this CL due to its size and lens compatibility with my M glass. But seeing that EVF in it. What a disappointment.
Have you looked THROUGH the EVF instead of at it? Numbers do not make an image. I guess the EVF is by Panasonic and close to the GX8 one, which is pretty darn good.

Godfrey
11-22-2017, 06:24
ALL Digilux2 sensors failed - the sensors were by Sony, the cameras built by Panasonic. Leica replaced them for free for twelve years...

That was a pan-Sony problem, really. I had two or three Sony sensor cameras that needed sensor replacement, from Sony and others. I wouldn't blame that one on Leica. As I recall, the cut-off happened when Sony cancelled the production and stopped funding the replacement procedure. :)

G

taemo
11-22-2017, 06:41
The viewfinder on this new CL is what I'm mostly interested on, it looks to be nice and big with 0.74x magnification
I was disappointed to see that the X-E3 VF remained small as I was hoping it would have the nice big X-T2 finder.

David Hughes
11-22-2017, 07:15
That was a pan-Sony problem, really. I had two or three Sony sensor cameras that needed sensor replacement, from Sony and others. I wouldn't blame that one on Leica. As I recall, the cut-off happened when Sony cancelled the production and stopped funding the replacement procedure. :)

G

Hmmm, well, um, it had the red Leica logo and the name "Leica" on the front and "Leica Camera Germany" on the back and, having read the catalogue I expected it to behave like a Leica and I expect Leicas to be thoroughly and individually tested...

Having said that I'll add that Leica behave responsibly and I'll risk saying that it's behaved itself ever since I got it back at least a decade ago; I hope the M9 will do the same. (But it's not the oldest digital camera I have and use; the oldest s from 2000.)

Regards, David

Jdi
11-22-2017, 08:47
The 911 isn't a cheap car in any spec but they are very reliable.

Some ownership experience on your part please. Having owned 2 911's, "very reliable" doesn't quite mesh with my experience. Porsche have always had component design issues. That, typical for all German manufacturers, don't get fixed. The margins are adequate to handle the warranty expense and a redesign would be an admission of flawed engineering. German engineers don't make mistakes, ask them.

My experience, rear main seal bearings, intermediate shafts, poor adhesion between rubber boots and copper oil feed lines.

What makes this acceptable is the service. 1 day to air ship an engine from Germany, another day to install it. Same with the second engine. The oil line was a bit of an issue as so many were failing they had no stock. An immediate jury rigged repair with sewing thread by the service shop lasted until new parts were available. On warranty, service is superb. Off warranty -- it took a class action law suit and years to get Porsche to replace/compensate owners for intermediate shaft failures.

Porsche's are not "very reliable". You are quite correct when you say they're not cheap. Thus rule #1, do not own one off warranty.

Huss
11-22-2017, 08:51
I've now viewed a bunch of different video reviews on this camera.

And

I really like it. Once it comes out I'll check it out to see if I can use the EVF (on most cameras they make me nauseous/give me motion sickness).

It's a great size, it looks very responsive, I can use my M lenses with it and it takes sweet pics. I came round, you will too..

;)

Emile de Leon
11-22-2017, 09:00
I'm actually thinkin about getting it...would be nice with my WATE...and 35 f1.4..pre and asph..maybe perfect...
Are they discounting yet...?...lol..

jaapv
11-22-2017, 09:02
That was a pan-Sony problem, really. I had two or three Sony sensor cameras that needed sensor replacement, from Sony and others. I wouldn't blame that one on Leica. As I recall, the cut-off happened when Sony cancelled the production and stopped funding the replacement procedure. :)

G

But, the X-series and probably the CL and TL have Sony sensors....

aizan
11-22-2017, 10:44
at first i was disappointed that leica missed another opportunity to make a lustworthy camera, but the thinking behind the bumpy top plate is winning me over.

Huss
11-22-2017, 10:55
Think of it this way... List all the Leica interchangeable mount cameras that have a built in VF.

Leica CL - 24mp - $2800
Leica M 262 - 24mp - $5600
Leica M 240 - 24mp - $6600 (incredible they are still selling this at this price)
Leica M 10 - 24 mp - $6900

Yeah the CL is APS-C but APS-C cameras still are capable of incredible pics. This is why we have the Nikon D500, Sony A6500 etc as well as their FF equivalents.
What we have here is an interchangeable lens (and M mount compatible) Leica camera for half the price of the next cheapest Leica. And think about this, it is the only one that has the AF option. Not bad...

I'm saying history is going to repeat itself. The original CL bludgeoned the sales of the M5, even though the M5 was - and still is - the best film Leica ever made.
This CL has the chance to do the same thing with the current M5 - the M10...

jsrockit
11-22-2017, 14:22
I actually like the camera ... but I just can't pay twice as much as a used X-Pro2 and a lens and three times as much as a used (or even new) X100F. It's nice though. I hope they make a smaller 35mm one day.

jsrockit
11-22-2017, 14:25
The venom constantly thrown at Leica on this forum is astonishing. Can’t people not care for things without denigrating them?


People are always going to do this until Leica makes a digital M that everyone can afford. The reccurring dream of RFF.

Archlich
11-22-2017, 14:58
I'm sure the camera's gonna be good, but oh the usual thing, price is high. Native lenses even higher, the lineup leaves me wanting, and gosh look at the size of that 35mm lens. Still I don't know why we could even argue about this after so many years, it's just Leica being normal...

Those who can shed out $4k for a kit would unlikely to be disappointed, but I'm glad we live in a time where choices are plenty and solid.

Now if only the X-Pro3 and X-T3 could utilize that top LCD display like what they already put into the GFX!

finguanzo
11-22-2017, 15:00
I like it, I would not buy it, but like it. Although, would be great if there was some type of hybrid viewfinder like the Xpro...

kshapero
11-22-2017, 15:01
Have you looked THROUGH the EVF instead of at it? Numbers do not make an image. I guess the EVF is by Panasonic and close to the GX8 one, which is pretty darn good.I had the GX8. I wear glasses and this EVF is no different outside on sunny days. It sucked. Buyer beware. It's OVF for me.

aizan
11-22-2017, 15:02
the internet would be boring if nobody argued.

speaking of the internet, did you hear about the fcc chairman's proposal to screw it up (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/21/technology/fcc-net-neutrality.html)?

ptpdprinter
11-22-2017, 15:11
This bit sells it for me as I would use it with mf Leica lenses:

"I made some detailed comparisons between the Fuji X-T2, the Leica M10, SL and the CL using the new version of the 28 M Summicron Asph and the 50 M Summilux Asph. Images from the CL did very well with both lenses with minimum vignetting ...Leica have obviously worked hard to make the camera do well with M lenses."
Minimum vignetting? One would hope there is no vignetting. The 28 Summicron and 50 Summilux are both designed to cover full frame, which is considerably larger than the APS-C sensor. Only the center of the image circle is being used. Classic BS review.

Al Patterson
11-22-2017, 15:18
You can certainly use the 40mm Summicron with it as long as the reduced (60mm equivalent) FoV isn't a problem for you. To get the same FoV on a 1.5x crop sensor, you'll need a 25-27mm lens.

Regards hitting the lottery ... putting ten dollars a week into a piggy bank will probably net you the required money faster than spending a couple of dollars a week on the lottery. The odds of winning the lottery are so low it's more likely you'll be able to walk to the Moon than hit a $5000 jackpot. :D

Well, to be honest, a brokerage account I inherited from my mother pays enough in dividends to by roughly 2 CLs a year, but I put the money in a Roth IRA.

I might just check out a used one in a few years, I just picked up a 10 megapixel DSLR from www.keh.com for about $300 with the money I had left ...

ptpdprinter
11-22-2017, 16:21
That was a pan-Sony problem, really.
Except that the sensor was in a Leica camera, which kind of made it a Leica problem. Invoking the Hans Solo defense is a little disingenuous.

mod2001
11-22-2017, 21:31
Think of it this way... List all the Leica interchangeable mount cameras that have a built in VF.

Leica CL - 24mp - $2800
Leica M 262 - 24mp - $5600
Leica M 240 - 24mp - $6600 (incredible they are still selling this at this price)
Leica M 10 - 24 mp - $6900



Price comparison with the M models are somehow useless, the M is unique and actual the only digital rangefinder in the market, they could ask 10K for an M10 and people would buy it, me too if I had the money (and better eyes). The CL is a admittedly nice but never the less a run-of-the-mill APS-C camera and has quite a few competitors, and with this price tag not only in the APS-C market. Don't get me wrong, I normally don't blame Leica for their prices knowing that they can't (and don't) have to be on the same level like a Fuji or a Sony, no arguing here, their products are special and this is what you or me pay for, but serious, $3,8k for a technically average APS-C camera with an average 28mm (equiv.)? Thats even in Leica terms insane and imho no longer justifiable.

Just my 2 cents
Jürgen

Huss
11-22-2017, 21:43
CL is not a run of the mill APS-C camera, as it is the only one that works really well with M mount lenses.
If you don't care about that, then yeah, a cheaper one makes more sense.
It's a new $2800 24mp M body to me, as I already have a tub full o' M lenses.

Huss
11-22-2017, 21:44
Have you looked THROUGH the EVF instead of at it? Numbers do not make an image. I guess the EVF is by Panasonic and close to the GX8 one, which is pretty darn good.

I will on Friday. Leica Store says they will have their demo in then. I'll take along an SD card and perhaps some M lenses to use on it.

Emile de Leon
11-22-2017, 22:20
Huss...definitely interested in your findings there..

Emile de Leon
11-22-2017, 22:20
Nice to see some pics too..!

mod2001
11-22-2017, 23:36
CL is not a run of the mill APS-C camera, as it is the only one that works really well with M mount lenses.
Let see if this is really the case, besides, the Fujis as well as the Sony A7x have only a problems with some lenses, mostly WA. My 35 Cron and 50 Lux work flawlessly on both platforms, similar to most of the other M-lenses, just don't like to focus via EVF, that why I would never consider them or the CL as alternative to a M.

It's a new $2800 24mp M body to me, as I already have a tub full o' M lenses.

Well, but it's still no M. Or would you pay 100K for a Toyota Corolla because you can put in a Porsche engine? ;)

Don't you have an M body? Because for a few bucks more you get a used M240 these days, 24MP, FF and a real Rangefinder, plus EVF if you need it.

Be it as it may, Leica should imho put more effort in their Q- (especially Firmware updates, just saying) and M-series instead of wasting time with merciless overpriced APS-C cameras or in some parts SLs. The competition in this segment is simply too strong with mostly near equal quality and form factor for a third of the price. An M is even w/o CCD special and unique, a Q somehow too, that's what people pay for and this is the only reason Leica still exists.

Jürgen

Bille
11-23-2017, 02:20
Might be a nice backup for M users who absolutely refuse to use a Sony a7 / a6000.

Lucadomi
11-23-2017, 05:11
I like it, but it is out of my price range.
I have no experience with Leica digital, other than the M8 for a short time. Actually, a redesigned M8 with a silent shutter and better ISO would have been great.
Anyway, I will have to stick with my Nex 7 for now (I do have a nice Summaron on it)

Ken Ford
11-23-2017, 06:51
IMO what would really make this take off is a Leica quality focal length converting M adapter.

Godfrey
11-23-2017, 06:58
But, the X-series and probably the CL and TL have Sony sensors....

And so what? I don't know whether they do or not.
No problems with them anyway, far as I'm aware.

What point are you trying to make?

Godfrey
11-23-2017, 07:00
Hmmm, well, um, it had the red Leica logo and the name "Leica" on the front and "Leica Camera Germany" on the back and, having read the catalogue I expected it to behave like a Leica and I expect Leicas to be thoroughly and individually tested...

Having said that I'll add that Leica behave responsibly and I'll risk saying that it's behaved itself ever since I got it back at least a decade ago; I hope the M9 will do the same. (But it's not the oldest digital camera I have and use; the oldest s from 2000.)

Regards, David

"Thorough and individual testing" mean nothing when a problem endemic to the manufacture of a component requires a few YEARs to become evident, which is what happened with the M9 sensor family. Do you want Leica to build a camera and use it for a decade before they release it for sale?? That's not going to make the "want the latest, bleeding edge innovation NOW" crowd. :D

Godfrey
11-23-2017, 07:06
Except that the sensor was in a Leica camera, which kind of made it a Leica problem. Invoking the Hans Solo defense is a little disingenuous.

I don't think it is when the same sensor used in Leica, Pentax, Olympus, and Sony has problems, and is made by Sony; when all fail in the same way and require replacement by Sony through the individual manufacturers. And when Sony funded both the manufacture of the replacements and the different manufacturers' repair programs to solve the issue.

That's not a Leica, Pentax, or Olympus camera problem ... it's a Sony component problem.

G

Luke_Miller
11-23-2017, 07:07
CL is not a run of the mill APS-C camera, as it is the only one that works really well with M mount lenses.

Sean Reid on his subscription site has a CL review and tested it with a couple of wide M lenses. His findings are the edges and corners are soft on the CL. I was hopeful of the CL being an APS-C EVF M alternative, but I'm not (yet) seeing it.

ptpdprinter
11-23-2017, 07:12
Sean Reid on his subscription site has a CL review and tested it with a couple of wide M lenses. His findings are the edges and corners are soft on the CL. I was hopeful of the CL being an APS-C EVF M alternative, but I'm not (yet) seeing it.
I think the SL is the EVF M alternative. Using an APS-C camera with FF lenses is a problem FOV wise on the normal and wide end.

ptpdprinter
11-23-2017, 07:34
FWIW, Dpreview reports that the 18mm CL lens is manufactured in Japan. Fortunately, if it turns out not to be an excellent lens, according to Godfrey, it won’t be a Leica problem.

Ko.Fe.
11-23-2017, 07:40
...
Don't you have an M body? ...

It has nothing to do with it. All what is matter is Made in Germany. Not only made, but designed in Germany and by the German.

You could put in Corolla entire Tesla hot rod, but it is still going to looks like Toyota. Lexus never going to be Mercedes. People with big money are paying not for guts inside, but for how it looks and feels.

And of course it is going to cost twice if it is made in Germany for obvious reasons. The price includes Leica labor, which doesn't work every other Friday, have billiards, vending machines with beer at work, which makes them slow and slightly sloppy every afternoon and taxes for Leica to pay which goes to support not only Germany and German people.

David Hughes
11-23-2017, 09:33
"Thorough and individual testing" mean nothing when a problem endemic to the manufacture of a component requires a few YEARs to become evident, which is what happened with the M9 sensor family. Do you want Leica to build a camera and use it for a decade before they release it for sale?? That's not going to make the "want the latest, bleeding edge innovation NOW" crowd. :D

Hmm, well, I don't know if all of them failed or just a batch or what so I can't answer that.

As for the bleeding etc crowd; I'm glad I'm in the tried and tested and lasts forever mob. I thought we all were, as Leica users.

Regards, David

Emile de Leon
11-23-2017, 10:07
Leica is like this guy...when they have a problem...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmzsWxPLIOo

Huss
11-23-2017, 10:20
Hmm, well, I don't know if all of them failed or just a batch or what so I can't answer that.

It was the batch made between 2009 to 2014.

ptpdprinter
11-23-2017, 10:24
People are always going to do this until Leica makes a digital M that everyone can afford. The reccurring dream of RFF.
If the CL were marketed as a Lumix at this price, I think there would be the same amount of derision, which begs the question, what does it being a Leica bring to the table.

jsrockit
11-23-2017, 10:28
Sean Reid on his subscription site has a CL review and tested it with a couple of wide M lenses. His findings are the edges and corners are soft on the CL.

Predictable really. M lens belong on a M body... IMO.

jsrockit
11-23-2017, 10:30
If the CL were marketed as a Lumix at this price, I think there would be the same amount of derision, which begs the question, what does it being a Leica bring to the table.

Even more so... but Panasonic does not have the name to charge this price. That is why Leica gets heat. They do have the name to charge this price.

Huss
11-23-2017, 10:30
Sean Reid on his subscription site has a CL review and tested it with a couple of wide M lenses. His findings are the edges and corners are soft on the CL. I was hopeful of the CL being an APS-C EVF M alternative, but I'm not (yet) seeing it.

http://www.slack.co.uk/leica-cl.html
I made some detailed comparisons between the Fuji X-T2, the Leica M10, SL and the CL using the new version of the 28 M Summicron Asph and the 50 M Summilux Asph. Images from the CL did very well with both lenses with minimum vignetting and no visible smearing. Very comparable to those from the Leica SL and nearly as good as those from the Leica M10. In comparison, the Fuji images were poor, even on the 50 ‘lux; the centre was sharp, but smearing was very evident away from the centre of the image. Leica have obviously worked hard to make the camera do well with M lenses.

I have had a long discussion with Sean Reid at ReidReviews about this and he agrees with me. He feels that the issue is largely to do with the thickness of the cover glass (the CL does not have an AA filter). Of course, Fujifilm have other priorities, and you wouldn’t expect them to spend a lot of time and money compromising their sensor design for other manufacturers to sell more lenses!

ptpdprinter
11-23-2017, 10:35
http://www.slack.co.uk/leica-cl.html
I made some detailed comparisons between the Fuji X-T2, the Leica M10, SL and the CL using the new version of the 28 M Summicron Asph and the 50 M Summilux Asph. Images from the CL did very well with both lenses with minimum vignetting and no visible smearing. Very comparable to those from the Leica SL and nearly as good as those from the Leica M10. In comparison, the Fuji images were poor, even on the 50 ‘lux; the centre was sharp, but smearing was very evident away from the centre of the image. Leica have obviously worked hard to make the camera do well with M lenses.
Since you have trotted out this review quote again, I'll trot out my response again as well.
Minimum vignetting? One would hope there is no vignetting. The 28 Summicron and 50 Summilux are both designed to cover full frame, which is considerably larger than the APS-C sensor. Only the center of the image circle is being used. Classic BS review.

ptpdprinter
11-23-2017, 10:39
Even more so... but Panasonic does not have the name to charge this price. That is why Leica gets heat. They do have the name to charge this price.
Ergo, you are paying for the name?

ptpdprinter
11-23-2017, 10:53
I have had a long discussion with Sean Reid at ReidReviews about this and he agrees with me. He feels that the issue is largely to do with the thickness of the cover glass (the CL does not have an AA filter). Of course, Fujifilm have other priorities, and you wouldn’t expect them to spend a lot of time and money compromising their sensor design for other manufacturers to sell more lenses!
Of course, the Fuji doesn't have an AA filter either, so maybe the issue is not with the thickness of the cover glass. Do either of them know the thicknesses of the respective cover glasses? Or are the just BSing? Again, I'm not sure why these two lenses would be unsharp on the edges of a Fuji APS-C sensor given the FF image circle. I don't think it is the angle of the light rays as with the FF bodies, particularly with a non-WA design like the 50 Summicron.

Bille
11-23-2017, 12:05
Leica is like this guy...when they have a problem...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmzsWxPLIOo

I think Leica handles (and handled) the M9 corrosion problem very well. Where else do you get a lifetime warranty repair for a camera sensor?

jsrockit
11-23-2017, 12:18
Ergo, you are paying for the name?

Me no... I don't have any Leicas anymore. In the case of the M or the Q, at least you get something unique. In this case, you do not (outside of build quality / ergonomics). The name on this camera is what allows it to be $2795 vs. the most expensive APSC mirrorless cameras of $1495 or $1699. Then again, Olympus gets $1999 for the EM1 MKII.

jsrockit
11-23-2017, 12:19
I think Leica handles (and handled) the M9 corrosion problem very well. Where else do you get a lifetime warranty repair for a camera sensor?

Not at Leica or anywhere...

Emile de Leon
11-23-2017, 12:27
I think Leica handles (and handled) the M9 corrosion problem very well. Where else do you get a lifetime warranty repair for a camera sensor?
They went back on their word..and cancelled...their..."Lifetime" sensor replacement policy..
And took forever to even acknowledge the problem..
As in.."I know nothing..nothing..." lol..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmzsWxPLIOo
I was going to buy an M9 back in the day...
Sure glad I passed on that one..

BlackXList
11-23-2017, 14:28
There will be no Panasonic version, it is purely by Leica. However, Panasonic and Leica cooperate strongly on technical matters. The 15 mm lens does look a lot like the 14 mm by Panasonic, but it cannot be the same, as it is for a different sensor format. However, Panasonic, in turn, cooperated with Leica to design their lens.

VERY doubtful, since it takes the same Panasonic battery as the V-Lux and the Q and the Pansonic Lumix DMC-G5, DMC-G6, DMC-G7, DMC-GH2, DMC-FZ200, DMC-FZ200GK, and the DMC-FZ1000

ptpdprinter
11-23-2017, 14:46
I think Leica handles (and handled) the M9 corrosion problem very well. Where else do you get a lifetime warranty repair for a camera sensor?
As noted, Leica reneged on their promise. The "lifetime" warranty expired on August 15, 2017. If you missed it, future sensor replacements will run $1000 or so, at least while they are still available. If you have an MM, good luck. Who knows what the wait will be after they work through their backlog of warranty sensor replacements.

maggieo
11-23-2017, 16:00
You know, I think I already have that camera...

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/615/33393085681_0056afb6db_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/SSQhYz)
Olympus Pen-F With Tom Abrahamson Soft Release, March 18, 2017 (https://flic.kr/p/SSQhYz) by Maggie Osterberg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/mediawench/), on Flickr

jsrockit
11-23-2017, 16:15
You know, I think I already have that camera...


Well... with a smaller sensor, worse build quality, worse menus, etc... but yeah, pretty much the template.

Ken Ford
11-23-2017, 18:31
Well... with a smaller sensor, worse build quality, worse menus, etc... but yeah, pretty much the template.

... and that goofy “slow styles” dial on the front. I wanted to like the Pen, but...

jsrockit
11-23-2017, 18:57
I wanted to like it too Ken, but I just couldn't.

maggieo
11-23-2017, 19:39
Well... with a smaller sensor, worse build quality, worse menus, etc... but yeah, pretty much the template.

Gets the job done. At a decent price point.

Huss
11-23-2017, 19:41
I think Leica handles (and handled) the M9 corrosion problem very well. Where else do you get a lifetime warranty repair for a camera sensor?

You actually believe that?
They already re-negged on their sensor replacements.

maggieo
11-23-2017, 19:47
A single datum: I got my M9-P sensor replaced, no hassle, aside from a two-month, three week, wait.

I bought the Pen-F to stand in for the M this Summer. I'm pleasantly surprised at how capable it is.

David Hughes
11-24-2017, 01:34
It was the batch made between 2009 to 2014.


Thanks, that raises a lot of questions but I doubt if I'll have any time to think them all through over the next few days or even weeks.

But there's one question at the top of the heap:- Was something changed for that batch?

Regards, David

PS Thinking about the bumps on the back of the pre-war Contax and then thinking about my R5 I wonder about a lot of things and the R5 appeared 50 years after the Contax so long term problems should have been known about...

Godfrey
11-24-2017, 06:43
A single datum: I got my M9-P sensor replaced, no hassle, aside from a two-month, three week, wait.

I bought the Pen-F to stand in for the M this Summer. I'm pleasantly surprised at how capable it is.

I still have an Olympus E-PL7 that I often forget I own (it's on loan to a friend of mine this past four months and you've just reminded me of it!). It also is a remarkably capable little camera and performs well even with the economy line of Olympus' compact lenses.

I ignore all the amuzing geegaws when I'm using it and use it in much the same way I use the M-D, plus AF. It's small, light, handy, and worth so little I debate whether it's sensible to sell it. It and a two-lens kit, with the EVF-4, can fit in a tiny little padded case and go anywhere; you hardly notice it's there. When I have it, I toss in in my bicycle backpack or motorcycle tank bag without a thought: an easy thing to live with. There's a place in the world for such things.

G

Ko.Fe.
11-24-2017, 06:49
Thanks, that raises a lot of questions but I doubt if I'll have any time to think them all through over the next few days or even weeks.

But there's one question at the top of the heap:- Was something changed for that batch?

Regards, David
...

You have quoted wrong assumptions about batch. My M-E is 2015. Corroded...

Huss
11-24-2017, 09:06
You have quoted wrong assumptions about batch. My M-E is 2015. Corroded...


It was the batch made between 2009 and 2015..

:D

Timmyjoe
11-24-2017, 09:25
Just another expensive Point & Shoot. Now if they had made it full frame, or at least made the 18mm an f1.4, I would think they might be on to something. But APC, f2.8 lens, what's to get excited about?

Best,
-Tim

ptpdprinter
11-24-2017, 09:34
Just another expensive Point & Shoot. Now if they had made it full frame, or at least made the 18mm an f1.4, I would think they might be on to something. But APC, f2.8 lens, what's to get excited about?
It has a red dot. That will have a lot of people around here running out to get one, or simply extolling its perceived virtues. Just wait a while; they will be for sale used with, invariably, low shutter counts, because they are being bought as objects rather than as tools.

noisycheese
11-24-2017, 09:59
The CL and the Q are in the $4000 USD ball park, less costly than the used M240s on ebay.

It seems like either would serve well as a backup to a full frame M camera or a small, light one camera solution - if people could stop hating Leica...

Archlich
11-24-2017, 10:05
Just another expensive Point & Shoot. Now if they had made it full frame, or at least made the 18mm an f1.4, I would think they might be on to something. But APC, f2.8 lens, what's to get excited about?

Best,
-Tim

You can always buy the $2395 Leica Summilux T 35/1.4 to go with the camera! It does look huge on the TL/CL, but weighs just 15 oz.

At least it's not as jaw-droppingly heavy and expensive as the 2.3 lbs, $5295 Summilux SL 50/1.4...

Archlich
11-24-2017, 10:10
The CL and the Q are in the $4000 USD ball park, less costly than the used M240s on ebay.

It seems like either would serve well as a backup to a full frame M camera or a small, light one camera solution - if people could stop hating Leica...

I wonder which ebay listing you were referring to? The used price of the 240 has dipped below the $3000 mark. Many sold on the 'bay for $2500-$2800.

After all, as we all know it, the M10 has destroyed the used market!

Emile de Leon
11-24-2017, 10:50
CL..$2800...vs. M240...$2800...hmmmm...you decide...

ptpdprinter
11-24-2017, 11:01
CL..$2800...vs. M240...$2800...hmmmm...you decide...
You are expecting rationality perhaps?

Huss
11-24-2017, 12:09
CL..$2800...vs. M240...$2800...hmmmm...you decide...

Hmm, already have an M240, would like an M lens compatible Leica with the same resolution that also has AF, is much smaller, has a much better EVF, higher shutter speeds and warranty...

Huss
11-24-2017, 12:14
There are quite a few on my craigslist now at $2200 - 2800.

John

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

There are a bunch on my craigslist too that are from scammers.
Call up one of those and see for yourself. I have a feeling they are the same people. They keep getting flagged, but reappear a day later.

Emile de Leon
11-24-2017, 14:37
Warrantee...$2800...yup..! It's Leica..yas betta gets a warrantee..

Huss
11-24-2017, 14:53
Warrantee...$2800...yup..! It's Leica..yas betta gets a warrantee..

So y u pushing one w/o a warranty? U selling one (perhaps owned by a tuna?)

(akshully the M240 seems to be extremely reliable. the M10 has already had issues w/ it's fancy iso dial)

:D

Emile de Leon
11-24-2017, 15:44
Huss..I would probably get an M240 for that kinda bread....but I really would like something lighter weight..
Leica will do it someday..but...in the meanwhile..I'll just use the tuna I already have..

Huss
11-24-2017, 18:32
A mint, used $3K Leica M240 is the "affordable" FF digi rangefinder everyone has been asking for!
The reason no-one else has made one is because of the existence of 2nd hand Leicas.

Emile de Leon
11-25-2017, 08:18
3K...affordable...who woulda thunk...3K..lol...affordable...??..like that's nothing...
I can buy a lot of other cool stuff for 3K...that will actually hold or gain value...

Huss
11-25-2017, 09:47
3K...affordable...who woulda thunk...3K..lol...affordable...??..like that's nothing...
I can buy a lot of other cool stuff for 3K...that will actually hold or gain value...
yeah but we are talking about cameras.

there are a lot of cameras out there from other mfgs that cost more. for some reason it's only when it's a Leica that people have issues with the price.
;)

Emile de Leon
11-25-2017, 11:25
Poor Leica..they are soooo...abuuused...lol...

Archlich
11-25-2017, 11:42
yeah but we are talking about cameras.

there are a lot of cameras out there from other mfgs that cost more. for some reason it's only when it's a Leica that people have issues with the price.
;)

I don't think I can get the logic here...

The only models in for example, Sony's current consumer portfolio that cost more than the CL are the $3198 a7R iii, the $3298 RX1R II and the $4498 a9. Fuji makes a $6499.95 GFX 50S, but...

The CL is not quite a comparable model to these cameras, is it?

ptpdprinter
11-25-2017, 11:44
there are a lot of cameras out there from other mfgs that cost more. for some reason it's only when it's a Leica that people have issues with the price.;)
It's not about absolute price. The M cameras are unique in that they are rangefinders; there are no alternatives so they cost what they cost. The other cameras that Leica makes are the real issue. It's about features and image quality for the price. Compare the Sony A6500 with 16-50mm at $1298 or the Fuji XE3 with 18-55mm at $1299 with the Leica CL with 18-56mm at $3995, for example. If you are purchasing a tool to make photographs as opposed to a luxury item, what are you really getting for over three times the cost?

Huss
11-25-2017, 15:18
I don't think I can get the logic here...

The only models in for example, Sony's current consumer portfolio that cost more than the CL are the $3198 a7R iii, the $3298 RX1R II and the $4498 a9. Fuji makes a $6499.95 GFX 50S, but...

The CL is not quite a comparable model to these cameras, is it?

re-read what i wrote. i was talking about used M240s

Huss
11-25-2017, 15:43
... If you are purchasing a tool to make photographs as opposed to a luxury item, what are you really getting for over three times the cost?

A camera that works with M lenses, including coding for them. I just tested this and will post up when I leave my gallery.
A camera that makes you want to pick up an use it. It feels a joy to hold and use, quite unlike a Sony A6xxx. For my use, the only camera I use are the ones that I like to use. I am fortunate enough to have that choice.
The build of the CL is really nice, much nicer than Sonys or Fujis and... much nicer than the original film CL! I've shot w Sonys, Fujis etc and owned the CL.

I have to say after using the CL I am a bit disapointed with the evf. It is the same as those in the much cheaper rivals, despite some claiming I have to use it first. It's fine but seeing what Leica is doing with evfs in the SL and Q, not great.

Huss
11-25-2017, 15:54
FYI i tested it with my Summilux 50 asph and the 7Artisans 50 1.1. Spoiler alert - the 7art lens does not work with it unless u only focus from .7m to about 2 m. The rear of the lens sticks out too far past that and fouls against the inside of the camera mount.

Archlich
11-25-2017, 16:02
re-read what i wrote. i was talking about used M240s

"there are a lot of cameras out there from other mfgs that cost more. for some reason it's only when it's a Leica that people have issues with the price."

When new, the $6995 M240 was sligtly more expensive than other flagship cameras - The D4 was $5999, the 1Dx $6799. No other manufacturers, saves for those who make larger formats and special purpose ones, offered a more expensive digital camera.

Used, I bet there's no other digital camera (again, bar the larger format ones) released back in 2012 that could still sell in the $2500-$3000 range (the poor Nikon D4 can be had now for less than $2000).

I have no problem with the current going price of used M240s, as long as we are not comparing used to new ("from other mfgs")...?

jsrockit
11-25-2017, 19:07
Gets the job done. At a decent price point.

I agree...it's not bad... but let's be honest... you have plenty of cameras that do this too. PLENTY...no?

jsrockit
11-25-2017, 19:09
Just another expensive Point & Shoot. Now if they had made it full frame, or at least made the 18mm an f1.4, I would think they might be on to something. But APC, f2.8 lens, what's to get excited about?


So now FF and fast lenses make a camera not a P&S? This is silly.