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Huss
11-15-2017, 11:39
On a recent travel shoot I took an M3DS w. a Summaron 35 3.5 goggled (and this lens has severe cleaning marks), a Fuji TX-2 w/ 45mm lens, and my Nikon F6 w/ Zeiss ZF.2 35mm f2.

I got pin sharp results from the Leica and Fuji, but about 1/2 of my Nikon shots were just a wee bit unsharp when looked at closely. It wasn't a focus issue, as in these cases there was nothing in the scene that was pin sharp. No, it was camera shake even though the shutter speeds were quite a bit over the 35mm = 1/30 sec threshhold.

I blame myself for getting sloppy with my technique using an SLR (even one as advanced as an F6), as I just find it so effortless getting sharp results w/ an RF camera. Still, I was disappointed w/ myself.

Lesson learned. Unfortunately not cheaply as I was using Provia!
:o

fenixv8
11-15-2017, 11:43
Huss can you explain further for ignorant fellow here.

SLR require a bit more steadiness than RF at same shutter speed?

Thanks,

Chris

ptpdprinter
11-15-2017, 11:49
Lesson learned.
Which lesson? Use a faster shutter speed? Carefully brace yourself. Use a rangefinder? Other?

Huss
11-15-2017, 12:04
Huss can you explain further for ignorant fellow here.

SLR require a bit more steadiness than RF at same shutter speed?

Thanks,

Chris

Yep. The RF cameras do not have a mirror slapping up and down.

Huss
11-15-2017, 12:06
Which lesson? Use a faster shutter speed? Carefully brace yourself. Use a rangefinder? Other?

Carefully bracing myself. My mistake completely. In the past I have had no issues when I did that.

BLKRCAT
11-15-2017, 12:07
I agree with huss. If you are a rangefinder user you will get into habits that would lead to critically unsharp images with a film slr. Things like shooting 1/30th, shooting wide open. Shooting wide open still yields good results with a rangefinder because the lens is so much closer to the film plane. The amount of optical compensation to get the lens out past the mirror box on an SLR degrades the image more so than with an RF.

Been there, experienced that. SLR's aren't the way to go for me for 35mm but my P67...

css9450
11-15-2017, 12:07
Yep. The RF cameras do not have a mirror slapping up and down.

But in the first post, you blamed yourself for a sloppy technique. Which is it?

Huss
11-15-2017, 12:11
But in the first post, you blamed yourself for a sloppy technique. Which is it?


Sloppy technique that had me not brace myself correctly allowed the extra vibrations inherent in an SLR to result in less than satisfactory results.

ptpdprinter
11-15-2017, 12:13
And I thought Leica users believe sharpness is a bourgeois concept.

Huss
11-15-2017, 12:15
And I thought Leica users believe sharpness was a bourgeois concept.

It is until you try to sell prints!

css9450
11-15-2017, 12:15
I think if I was using sloppy technique, I'd be noticing camera shake (SLR or RF) long before any kind of mirror slap would enter the equation.

rfaspen
11-15-2017, 12:19
Well, I'm guilty.

A recent weekend shoot with both RF and SLR cameras resulted in a bunch of blurry photos from both systems. The RF blurry photos were expected -- late day in the concrete jungle with heavy overcast skies. I bumped the Leica up to ISO 1600, but still only managed 1/15 or so at f/5.6. So, no surprises.

But a good 40% of the images from the D700 all shot during the bright overcast midday were blurry. Some with shutter speeds over 1/125 with a 20mm lens. I had a lot of coffee that day and was noticeably "shaky", but I think it was sloppy technique that gave me the blurs. I use DSLR about 10% of the time nowadays (used to be a lot more) and I just figured short FL and SS above 125 should have freed me from having to worry about camera movement. Ummm. No.

Had little to do with mirror slap. Only the "default" technique I tend to use with RF versus the brain blank I suffered while using the D700. I was in constant motion and just oblivious.....

ptpdprinter
11-15-2017, 12:24
I bumped the Leica up to ISO 1600, but still only managed 1/15 or so at f/5.6.
I probably would have chosen 1/60th at f/2.0. Camera shake makes everything less sharp, including the extra DOF you get by stopping down.

Chris101
11-15-2017, 12:34
... The amount of optical compensation to get the lens out past the mirror box on an SLR degrades the image more so ...

That doesn't seem right. I don't know if the distance the light travels has anything to do with it. Individual lens formula may lead to more or less aberration, but it's independent of distance.

f16sunshine
11-15-2017, 12:37
I’m using a Canon eos RT with a pelical mirror.
Makes a slr nearly as smooth as a rangefinder.
But yes, XA and TLR even more so..made me more “sloppy with Handholding.
It’s seems so much Easier with lead shutter cameras. The xa and rolleiflex

Highway 61
11-15-2017, 12:43
The amount of optical compensation to get the lens out past the mirror box on an SLR degrades the image more so than with an SLR.

Quite unclear and sounding like fake news of some sort, although I understand that the last words of this sentence should have been "...than with a RF." without any typo.

You may have been a bit too far away from your keyboard while typing this. :p

nobbylon
11-15-2017, 13:02
Must admit Huss, this smells a bit! I can hand hold my F6 easily at the same speeds as my M4 and get better exposures with the same accuracy of focus.
M3 vs F6? no contest. M3 has no meter, can’t use it in water or major dust scenarios and there’s always the risk of curtain or viewfinder problems with such an old camera.
F6, sure it may get low on batteries but spares are easy to carry..
Don’t get me wrong, I’ve always liked my rf’s but they also have limitations.
I agree with you completely, you were sloppy ;)
I’ve said it in the past and I’ll repeat it now, if I was doing a once in a lifetime shoot or trip, I wouldn’t be using a 50 year old camera, cla’d or not. I’d be taking my F6 with a bag load of batteries.

nobbylon
11-15-2017, 13:09
I agree with huss. If you are a rangefinder user you will get into habits that would lead to critically unsharp images with a film slr. Things like shooting 1/30th, shooting wide open. Shooting wide open still yields good results with a rangefinder because the lens is so much closer to the film plane. The amount of optical compensation to get the lens out past the mirror box on an SLR degrades the image more so than with an SLR.

Been there, experienced that. SLR's aren't the way to go for me for 35mm but my P67...

Depends what lenses you are using. My Nikon lenses are equally as sharp if not sharper wide open than my leica lenses.
I shot my 28 Ais, 50 1.4 and 85 1.4 today and after 3 years shooting my M9 marvelled at how sharp and nice the images looked.

Ko.Fe.
11-15-2017, 13:12
1/15, 40mm taken by my daughter with M-E.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4583/38349872146_f29e348e76_o.jpg

1/8 35mm on M-E taken by me.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4423/36523201111_1981deebc4_o.jpg

With film Leica it is 1/8 I would not hesitate with 50mm lens.

I was recently trying FG-20 with 50E and didn't find it as good as with RF. Due to mirror slap.

Keith
11-15-2017, 13:17
Considering how well damped the shutter in my F6 appears to be that surprises me. Nikon went to a lot of trouble with that camera by isolastically mounting the whole shutter assembly.

Huss
11-15-2017, 13:18
Must admit Huss, this smells a bit! I can hand hold my F6 easily at the same speeds as my M4 and get better exposures with the same accuracy of focus.

Nothing wrong with my F6. All the fault is on me for being lackadaisical with the handling of it.

:):o

p.giannakis
11-15-2017, 13:20
Yep. The RF cameras do not have a mirror slapping up and down.

The F6 (and also the F4 and the F5) have a mirror balancer - when the mirror flips up the balancer creates a vibration of equal strength towards the opposite direction to counteract the mirror slap.

I don't have a F6 but it works well on my F4s and F5. The increased weight helps too.

I am not a RF person so i cannot comment further.

nobbylon
11-15-2017, 13:27
Nothing wrong with my F6. All the fault is on me for being lackadaisical with the handling of it.

:):o

Sadly my rangefinder days are done. My eyesight is no longer good enough to manually focus so Iím selling off my Leica gear. Back to Nikon and happy I kept the F6. Itís by far the most capable 35mm film camera Iíve used or owned. I seem to use my iphone instead of a carry round these days anyway.
Iíll miss the smaller lenses on the r/fís.

sepiareverb
11-15-2017, 17:52
Could it be the lenses?

Tompas
11-16-2017, 00:53
SLR require a bit more steadiness than RF at same shutter speed?

I doubt that.

Anyway, I wonder what extraordinarily steady hands many of you have. I never use anything below 1/250s when shooting without a tripod. With my 50-135mm APS-C telezoom I use 1/500s as a minimum, with my 8/500mm tele at least 1/1000s.

Tompas with the shaky hands? :)

valdas
11-16-2017, 01:21
I doubt that.

Anyway, I wonder what extraordinaryly steady hands many of you have. I never use anything below 1/250s when shooting without a tripod. With my 50-135mm APS-C telezoom I use 1/500s as a minimum, with my 8/500mm tele at least 1/1000s.

Tompas with the shaky hands? :)

1/30, 1/60 is quite a normal speed when I shoot with RF or TLR (with the normal focal length). 1/15 requires a bit of concentration and practice, but not beyond impossible...

Arbitrarium
11-16-2017, 01:30
Might simply be that the distance from the front of the lens to the film plane (or the distance between your right and left hand) is longer on an SLR (generally) so any shake would be more pronounced, if you see what I mean?

I shoot at 1/8th at night but it's definitely harder the heavier the camera is. I attribute shake more to camera weight than anything else.

Spanik
11-16-2017, 01:34
Sorry don't buy this. No problem handholding something like a Mamiya 645 at 1/8. Something else is going on and you try to blame it on the mirror.

Fraser
11-17-2017, 07:24
The old formula of using a shutter speed greater than the focal length of a the lens is a bit old fashioned and fine if all you do is make 6x4 prints.
I would think nikon would have thought about vibration coming from the mirror by now. Is it not more the case that you shoot a bit more slowly taking more time to press the shutter on the Leica?

zuiko85
11-17-2017, 07:43
Some, but not too much weight, a leaf shutter, good technique, all this combines to help lower camera shake. Would think a 6X6 TLR could be used at 1/15 if need be. I have a Olympus Pen D, with the 32mm f1.9 lens and a 5 blade Copal shutter with timed speeds down to 1/8 sec. and I don't hesitate to use that speed if I can brace myself. The problem with that camera is scale focus, wide open and closer than 10 ft., well you better get it right, there's not much DOF to cover you.

Huss
11-17-2017, 08:06
Sorry don't buy this. No problem handholding something like a Mamiya 645 at 1/8. Something else is going on and you try to blame it on the mirror.


Nothing wrong with my F6. All the fault is on me for being lackadaisical with the handling of it.

................

:)

Huss
11-18-2017, 13:09
Could it be the lenses?

Nah, I used a Zeiss ZF.2 35 f2. That lens is a cracker.

I just shot a test roll taking more care w my technique and will see the results tomorrow. Half with the Zeiss and mf, the other half with a 50 1.8g and af. To compare my mf to af as well as holding the camera steady.

Huss
11-19-2017, 20:48
Got my test roll back, and all the pics are pin sharp.
So yup, camera shake cuz of my sloppiness was to blame.

Thankfully - I didn't want there to be anything up with my F6!

Ronald M
11-19-2017, 21:30
Too many moving parts in SLR. Leica at least had mirror dampers in R6 and later and the early German tanks like sl.

Huss
11-19-2017, 22:00
Too many moving parts in SLR. Leica at least had mirror dampers in R6 and later and the early German tanks like sl.

The F6 has counterweights on the mirror (as does the F5 and I think F4) that balance out vibes much better than any other film SLR.
But that doesn't help if the user has shaky hands like I did!

css9450
11-20-2017, 04:06
But that doesn't help if the user has shaky hands like I did!

I recommend more coffee. Or, if that's not the problem, maybe less coffee.

oftheherd
11-20-2017, 05:29
I agree with huss. If you are a rangefinder user you will get into habits that would lead to critically unsharp images with a film slr. Things like shooting 1/30th, shooting wide open. Shooting wide open still yields good results with a rangefinder because the lens is so much closer to the film plane. The amount of optical compensation to get the lens out past the mirror box on an SLR degrades the image more so than with an RF.

Been there, experienced that. SLR's aren't the way to go for me for 35mm but my P67...

This whole thing seem to me like which is better, film or digital. :p

Huss has plainly shown that he got carless in his technique with his SLR. I don't know how that would happen just because he uses and RF also. To me, one still needs to brace ones body for steadiness, and push the shutter button correctly. Regardless, I am glad to hear he has worked it out for himself to get better photos.

Nor do I know how the rear lens element being closer to the film plane would default to sharper photos. Even if one agrees that more compensations are needed for SLR lenses, there is no compensation possible for the circles of confusion being more oval when the rear element is close to the film plane. I would think the two things, closer to the film plane, or needing more compensation (which might make the distance factor of no consequence) would be very minor compared to each other, and second, would tend to cancel each other's advantages out.

But I am certainly not educated in lens theory or mathematics, so I could be all wet.

willie_901
11-20-2017, 05:52
I appreciate this reminder to switch mental gears when changing cameras.

noisycheese
11-24-2017, 10:21
I appreciate this reminder to switch mental gears when changing cameras.

Good advice there. SLRs and RFs require different techniques and mindset.

I have found that with my M-P 240 it is better to use focal length x 2 or 3 = shutter speed (50mm minimum of 1/125, 90mm minimum of 1/250) for hand held shots. Digital sensors relentlessly reveal camera movement when printing large. If I can brace against something solid, 2x seems to work.

Using a monopod is a great help, too. I was able to get sharp shots in a Buddhist temple in Mongolia with my M240 and 50/1.0 combo at 1/45 using a monopod.

bluesun267
11-24-2017, 10:41
I think with SLRs it is just the viewfinder blackout that leads to problems with lower shutter speeds, particularly 1/30th and below, and perhaps even higher speeds, though we are perhaps not as conscious of those. Simply: if I can see where I'm pointing while the shutter is open, I'm less likely to move. If all I can see is black, then...

I love both kinds of cameras though.

noisycheese
12-14-2017, 21:08
Using RF cameras has made me sloppy

Photographing with rangefinder cameras has had the exact opposite effect on me; so much so that I don't own anything other than rangefinder cameras at present.

I do miss my Nikon F3hp though. :(

I think I am going to try to replace it in 2018 if I can find a minty copy that is for sale at a reasonable price.

Huss
12-15-2017, 01:11
Photographing with rangefinder cameras has had the exact opposite effect on me; so much so that I don't own anything other than rangefinder cameras at present.

I do miss my Nikon F3hp though. :(

I think I am going to try to replace it in 2018 if I can find a minty copy that is for sale at a reasonable price.

I figured out why I can hold RFs much steadier than SLRs. When I put my Leica to my face, it fits perfectly in the space between my eye/eyebrow ridge and the side of my nose. It is braced in there solidly w/o me even realizing it. I can't do that with an SLR as the VF is in the middle of the body, and best I can do is squish my honker against the back of the film door.

FYI I may be selling a perfect condition F3 Limited. It is the F3P titanium that has a regular hotshoe and the Limited (edition) script. But these puppies aint cheap! ($700). A regular mint (actually mint, not the fake described as mint that most peeps seem to do) runs about $350.

JP Owens
12-15-2017, 02:55
Just shoot with lenses that have stabilizers built in. Problem solved. :)

One of the advantages of going to mirrorless with the G85 and GX8 is five axis ibis. Thankfully, as I've gotten older and more shaky, technology has come to the rescue! If I'm paying attention, I can get a fair hit rate hand-held at 1 second with the G85.

I don't think mirror slap is a real issue with the f4, f5 or f6, though. When I used the F4s professionally, though, carrying that boat anchor around for very long could certainly make me shaky!

steveyork
12-15-2017, 03:33
Sloppy technique that had me not brace myself correctly allowed the extra vibrations inherent in an SLR to result in less than satisfactory results.

That's why some folks like the Leicaflex SL. Better shutter damping. A braking system that allows a stop or two slower then, for example, a Nikon.

charjohncarter
12-15-2017, 07:45
I agree with you: I am more steady with my RF(s).

nukecoke
12-15-2017, 07:54
Not all my RFs have 1/15s or 1/10s, which I wish they have. All my SLRs have them, which I'm reluctant to use.

Huss
02-23-2018, 23:46
So here's an interesting update... I've been shooting the F6 with a Sigma Art 50 1.4 - and about 50% of the pics were out of focus. But that lens is in focus on my D850, which with its high pixel sensor is far more sensitive to focus issues.
I then replaced that lens with a 50 1.8G on the F6. And again the pics were OOF. I then noticed that in the VF, when the focus confirmation dot lit - whether in MF or using AF, the view in the VF was obviously OOF. So it seems that the focus in my F6 has drifted/been knocked off. So much for this only happening to RF cameras...
I have been extremely careful with my F6, it has never been bumped, does not have a mark on it, looks new. So this is very disappointing indeed, especially since I picked it as my 35mm film camera on a photo trip at the end of last year when I first noticed possible issues (once I got back and saw the results).
At least this camera is a gen-you-whine USA version, so I should not have an issue getting it serviced. Nikon USA does not touch grey market cameras. But this is $till going to hurt..

Huss
02-27-2018, 14:31
Yeeah something broke on my babied never scratched/dropped F6. Nikon is giving it a B2 repair "Replace/repair major parts". Really disappointed in that for a pro F level camera, but it explains my OOF results. Guess it wasn't my technique after all. I just never would have imagined it to be a faulty F6.

RObert Budding
04-21-2018, 05:06
Have you considered using faster film? I, personally, try to avoid handheld shots at slow shutter speeds.

helenhill
04-21-2018, 05:26
Using RF cameras made me HAPPY....

raid
04-21-2018, 05:34
People sometimes make mistakes. People also sometimes don't pay enough attention to small details. This can happen.