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View Full Version : Leica and Zenit: A marriage made in Heaven or Hell?


CameraQuest
09-18-2017, 22:59
Truth stranger than fiction? Indeed.

Sometimes real news knocks the fake news right off the front page.

What are the chances that Leica, a firm famous for quality and precision, would team up in any way with the Russian Zenit, famous for not so great quality?

Apparently, 100%
See https://leicarumors.com/2017/09/16/rumors-zenit-to-work-together-with-leica-on-their-upcoming-full-frame-mirrorless-digital-camera-did-leica-purchased-zenit.aspx/

Will Zenit give Leica a path to much lower priced quality products?

Or a path to do serious damage to Leica's reputation?

Time will tell.

johnf04
09-18-2017, 23:46
Back when I worked for a computer company, one of the directors used to talk about software products that would be available "real soon now"........this would appear to be the camera equivalent.

David Hughes
09-19-2017, 00:50
Well, it's a rumour and this is the internet... Best to wait and see.

Regards, David

jaapv
09-19-2017, 01:28
Truth stranger than fiction? Indeed.

Sometimes real news knocks the fake news right off the front page.

What are the chances that Leica, a firm famous for quality and precision, would team up in any way with the Russian Zenit, famous for not so great quality?

Apparently, 100%
See https://leicarumors.com/2017/09/16/rumors-zenit-to-work-together-with-leica-on-their-upcoming-full-frame-mirrorless-digital-camera-did-leica-purchased-zenit.aspx/

Will Zenit give Leica a path to much lower priced quality products?

Or a path to do serious damage to Leica's reputation?

Time will tell.
Leicarumors? 100%?

jaapv
09-19-2017, 01:30
Maybe some form of cooperation, why not? But if Zenith were to issue a rebranded Leica camera, it is hard to see how it could be cheaper. After all, Zenith would have to pay Leica prices for the parts and name...

nukecoke
09-19-2017, 02:17
Maybe some form of cooperation, why not? But if Zenith were to issue a rebranded Leica camera, it is hard to see how it could be cheaper. After all, Zenith would have to pay Leica prices for the parts and name...

It wouldn't be the case if Zenit(not very likely)or some underground Chinese factories(very likely) are the real makers of the cameras.

Leica-branded Panasonic cameras are much more expensive than the Panasonic counterparts.

Keith
09-19-2017, 03:14
Is it April already?

PKR
09-19-2017, 03:24
It's all about the brand and branding. Leica is more a brand than a camera NOW. Slap a Red Dot on a Zeint and it's a Leica, for the market Leica has created over recent years. Has Leica produced any watches yet? Golf clubs may be coming soon..


"In a sense, they are a luxury company with a history of producing functional tool-like devices, versus lifestyle or status items. This is extremely similar to the nature of many contemporary watch brands with similar histories. Together, Leica and Valbray have produced the limited edition EL1 Chronograph watch.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/arieladams/2014/05/22/leica-camera-maker-teams-up-with-valbray-timepieces-for-100th-annniversary-watch/

Leica small leather goods
"On the following pages, brand followers will find everything their hearts could possibly desire."
https://us.leica-camera.com/World-of-Leica/Brand-Accessories

jaapv
09-19-2017, 04:07
Yes, Leica has produced (labelled) quite a few watches in the past, from the M6 Swatch to Walkman watches with a Leica design.

Rayt
09-19-2017, 04:42
Well back some 15 years ago who had heard of Voigtlander? How many defunct brands no one have ever heard of can be resurrected? Seems if the quality is good and with good marketing then people will buy.

CameraQuest
09-19-2017, 06:40
Maybe some form of cooperation, why not? But if Zenith were to issue a rebranded Leica camera, it is hard to see how it could be cheaper. After all, Zenith would have to pay Leica prices for the parts and name...

Leica Rebranded to Zenit? That would make no sense to me. I am guessing there will be new cameras and lens designs made by Zenit in cooperation with Leica.

The real questions is what quality level Zenit capable of, and under name plate will the new products be marketed?

Imagine going to a Leica store and seeing a "Made in Russia" inscription. That should go over well.

I wish Leica well in going outside the box to produce lower retail prices. Time will tell.

valdas
09-19-2017, 07:12
Imagine going to a Leica store and seeing a "Made in Russia" inscription. That should go over well.


excuse me? will there be a nice logo with an inscription "i see what you see"?

translation of the inscription below: "i read your mind"...

https://rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=106535&stc=1&d=1505830312

jaapv
09-19-2017, 07:26
Leica Rebranded to Zenit? That would make no sense to me. I am guessing there will be new cameras and lens designs made by Zenit in cooperation with Leica.

The real questions is what quality level Zenit capable of, and under name plate will the new products be marketed?

Imagine going to a Leica store and seeing a "Made in Russia" inscription. That should go over well.

I wish Leica well in going outside the box to produce lower retail prices. Time will tell.

Well, there is nothing sensational in Leica cooperating with other camera makers, just think of Minolta, Kyocera or Panasonic. Nor has Leica ever been shy of using lenses from other makers, be it Sigma, Schneider, Agenieux or others. So nothing new under the sun; however, there was nothing cheaper under the sun either...:rolleyes:

It is not as if Leica has an excessively high profit margin, some things cannot even be undercut by other manufacturers, like their digital rangefinders.
The stuff is simply expensive, but unfortunately for the customers, not overpriced.

Ko.Fe.
09-19-2017, 09:54
Where is Shvabe which owns Zenit a.k.a. KMZ.
http://www.shvabe.com/en/about/company/krasnogorskiy-zavod-im-s-a-zvereva/o-kompanii-kmz/
And where is no news from them about Leica. So, 100% is not true. It is 100% only if it is confirmed by both sides. Not by one rumor spreader. Who has nothing to do with both companies.

If they did it with KMZ once (Leica, Zorki) why not do it again. They are doing it in aero industry. Plane bodies are made in Russia, electronics are imported. Even for military ones.
Now it is more politically motivated. Russia has self-applied sanctions on import and state policy for import replacement. They already did it with one Russian mobile phone, where all components were from China. They did Russian made robot once, from LEGO parts.

Zenit, Zorki are still popular brands, lots of Back to the USSR nostalgia recently.
Leica cooperated with Panasonic for cheap, yet, best I ever used P&S. Why not with Shvabe? Leica project management and practical knowledge, made it China components, and Zenit label on it. Promised already by Russian side to sell it at the price of the iPhone. Which is 1K$. Sony FF is already available under 900USD, new, with warranty. So, it is possible.

Too bad it is Zenit, not Zorki...

stompyq
09-19-2017, 10:15
Well personally I hope they do it. Bc I would buy one!

ptpdprinter
09-19-2017, 10:17
If you make a cheap body, you need cheap lenses to go with it. Who will be manufacturing the lenses for Zenit (Leicit? Zenica?).

BillBingham2
09-19-2017, 10:23
........Sony FF is already available under 900USD, new, with warranty. So, it is possible.

.....

Only after the engineering and manufacturing has been fully paid off. They did not start out that cheap remember.

B2 (;->

Out to Lunch
09-19-2017, 10:24
The Leica Rumors page on a Leica/Zenit deal is as clear as mud.

Huss
09-19-2017, 10:46
If you make a cheap body, you need cheap lenses to go with it. Who will be manufacturing the lenses for the Zenit.

Keep it as an M mount. Or M42 mount.

ptpdprinter
09-19-2017, 10:52
Keep it as an M mount. Or M42 mount.
The Leica SL body uses the L mount, though there is an M to L mount adapter, as well as lots of other L mount adapters.

PKR
09-19-2017, 11:19
Eh, I disagree. To me, every digi body but the M-246 and M10 have been overpriced. The performance of a DSLR or the Fuji RF-like models outweighs the price/preference ratio I have for Leicas.


I end up spending so much less with a used film body (as long as I scan and not print) and I don't find the fatty design of the m8->240 to be pleasant. Maybe if I shot color instead of B&W I'd feel different but I dunno.

I have to agree with the Dr. I'm still using my 30+ year old F3s for film use. Most digital cameras, if kept current, need to be replaced/updated in 18-24 months. Not taking into to account the lack of professional service/support that other high end camera makers provide, Leica for many, is a niche product. I'm not saying they don't produce good cameras, but I think like most digital gear as opposed to M film cameras, the lifespan and value (because of support and maybe unavailable replacement electronics) is quite limited when compared to any of their film cameras. I honestly think of a digital camera's working life as similar to a laptop. Sell before they're too old to use.
Add to this, that many nonpro (plastic) cameras made by Nikon and Canon, perform very well when mated with quality lenses. These cameras can be purchased at a smaller investment and recycled while still useable, in order to upgrade and stay current.

And then there's Fuji. Smart, and reacting positively to customer wants and needs. I'm sure the other companies are watching, but maybe to ingrained in their ways to follow the trend.

jaapv
09-19-2017, 12:37
Eh, I disagree. To me, every digi body but the M-246 and M10 have been overpriced. The performance of a DSLR or the Fuji RF-like models outweighs the price/preference ratio I have for Leicas.


I end up spending so much less with a used film body (as long as I scan and not print) and I don't find the fatty design of the m8->240 to be pleasant. Maybe if I shot color instead of B&W I'd feel different but I dunno.

Ah - but these Fuji etc. bodies are much cheaper to build...

Huss
09-19-2017, 12:39
What is interesting about this though, is :
1/ Zenit is not being resurrected. They are still making stuff.
b/ Normally bringing back a nameplate occurs because it was a high end product for marketing reasons. Think Maybach or Bugatti. Not Trabant. Zenit was as low as you could go (I have a NOS 12sd and TTL. The 12SD arrived w/ pinholes in the shutter - that I fixed. The TTL with wildly off shutter timing and light leaks).
iii/ Cool if they brought back that lens that has only two aperture blades resulting in a square aperture shape.

jaapv
09-19-2017, 12:42
Well back some 15 years ago who had heard of Voigtlander? How many defunct brands no one have ever heard of can be resurrected? Seems if the quality is good and with good marketing then people will buy.

Ummm... Voigtländer dates back to 1756 and was a respected and well-known camera company since 1840...:rolleyes: Bessas have been built until past the end of the last century, culminating in the RD cameras.

Ko.Fe.
09-19-2017, 13:11
Only after the engineering and manufacturing has been fully paid off. They did not start out that cheap remember.

B2 (;->

Marketing and sales (this is where Leica/Zenit rumor belongs) is different from "how_many _cameras_sold profit against of RD_and_make costs" accounting calculations for audit.
But...
Leica is positioned as high end, one of the most expensive cameras. Where are some waiting lists for M10, but I recall bartender writing how some other Leica models are not selling well. Leica can't drop the price on those models. It will hurt the glory. Leica must be expensive. One of the reason people are buying it. People are often buying if it is expensive. Rules of society.
Then what to do to avoid lost of recovery of RD and manufacturing costs for Leica not selling well cameras? .... Right! Sell it as Russian cameras for the price of the iPhone. It is absolutely possible to sell more for less, recover costs and also blame Russians for all technical issues.
Win-Win, Wink-Wink.

David Hughes
09-19-2017, 13:19
Hi,

There's another link; the Leica II was cloned to become the FED and then made by KMZ as the FED factory had been destroyed. The KMZ made FED (called "Zorki" ) was then fitted with a mirror box and lost the RF to become the Zenit.

So perhaps we are talking about a family reunion? ;-) Or a sort of FitzLeica...

Regards, David

johannielscom
09-19-2017, 13:25
Over a decade ago I saw several Leica mount lenses online that were obviously prototypes. Copies of The Summicron 40mm and 90mm. They were Kaleinar-branded.

Not sure if KMZ or Zenit were involved with that, but the interest in Leica has been around for a while in the former USSR

PKR
09-19-2017, 13:59
Ah - but these Fuji etc. bodies are much cheaper to build...

They last at least 24+ months, and with no serious hardware issues so far. No sensor repair/fixes necessary. Being cheaper, if I drop a body while traveling, I can call B&H (or probably Stephen) and get a replacement Fed-Xed quickly without having to worry about the limit on my CC. They hold their value well enough for decent trade in credit when up grading. That's good for an electronic gadget with a limited use/lifespan.

I can own two pro bodies for under $3500 rather than $14k. The digital camera movement has changed a lot about photography. Many of us think of digital cameras as disposable in relation to the film cameras we held on to for years.

Assuming pro support from Leica, similar to Nikon and Canon, and now maybe Fuji, which is a pipe dream.. I wouldn't have a problem with the price, if I could use the camera for ten years. But, being current with sensor and AF advancements (AF digital M?) with a ten year old camera is asking a lot today. In ten years, that's five upgrades at the rate of hardware evolution. Not counting inflation in USD and price increase/decrease that's $35,000 for Fuji and $140,000 for Leica less trade in value. If improvements in sensor technology came to a screeching halt, maybe things would be different. But, things are still very fluid in the electronics world.

That's $100k (minus trade in value 40-60%?) in ten years I can spend on film and D76.

jaapv
09-19-2017, 14:40
Precisely?
Build one hundred times as many, divide R&D per camera by 100, beat parts suppliers down in price, etc....

Baby of Macon
09-19-2017, 17:15
This is the equivalent of someone announcing that there will be a recycled Ferrari coming from Polski Fiat. It makes no sense on any level - unless Leica has totally written off the SL and wants to dump it in eastern europe. Which would pretty much make it a Polski Fiat equivalent. Or perhaps Moskvitch...

xayraa33
09-19-2017, 17:29
This is the equivalent of someone announcing that there will be a recycled Ferrari coming from Polski Fiat. It makes no sense on any level - unless Leica has totally written off the SL and wants to dump it in eastern europe. Which would pretty much make it a Polski Fiat equivalent. Or perhaps Moskvitch...

These guys are saying this Zenit will be a re-badged Leica SL

https://petapixel.com/2017/09/16/zenits-full-frame-mirrorless-camera-rebranded-leica-sl-rumor-says/

I can't see it being anything but vapour-ware.

A Sony A7 pretending to be a Leica turned into a Zenit, with that legendary Zenit non reliability and lousy quality of years gone by.

jsrockit
09-19-2017, 17:41
A Sony A7 pretending to be a Leica turned into a Zenit, with that legendary Zenit non reliability and lousy quality of years gone by.

The SL is nothing like a A7... but I have no idea what Zenit is thinking in trying to be a luxury brand.

PKR
09-19-2017, 17:55
Build one hundred times as many, divide R&D per camera by 100, beat parts suppliers down in price, etc....

I was taught that in most products, production cost is 25% of the consumer retail. This allows for profit by the maker, 100% mark up, distributor, and retailer. So, in theory, a one hundred dollar item cost twenty five dollars to produce.

With robotics pick and place, and off shore labor, these values may be incorrect. So, does the M10 cost $1750 USD to get out of the factory door? Assuming $7000 retail (I'm unsure of the current retail price?).

I owned (sold) a very expensive piece of electronic hardware. The maker (Japanese) ,knowing that the chipsets for this unit would not be made after their production runs, warehoused sets of replacement circuit boards for repair of this unit. The warehouse, located near salt water, was flooded in a storm and all the replacement parts were lost. When hearing of this, the value of the unit on the used market dropped. Many were quickly sold. This is the nature of unique chipsets with limited production runs.

xayraa33
09-19-2017, 18:01
The SL is nothing like a A7... but I have no idea what Zenit is thinking in trying to be a luxury brand.

The A7 was the first of that SL type camera, so yes technically the A7 and the SL are not the same but the Sony A7 was the first FF mirrorless with interchangeable lenses so it pre dates the SL in that type of camera.

Since we are not spoiled with a whole slew of these types of FF mirrorless cameras from a variety of manufacturers then the evolution progression started with the Sony A7

If the Zenit is not vapour-ware then as Ko Fe said, it has to sell for less than a grand US when a new Sony A7 is selling for 900 usd body only.

Rayt
09-19-2017, 18:13
Ummm... Voigtländer dates back to 1756 and was a respected and well-known camera company since 1840...:rolleyes: Bessas have been built until past the end of the last century, culminating in the RD cameras.

I guess it depends on your target demographics. Do young people these days know what is a Contax for example.

jsrockit
09-19-2017, 18:42
The A7 was the first of that SL type camera, so yes technically the A7 and the SL are not the same but the Sony A7 was the first FF mirrorless with interchangeable lenses so it pre dates the SL in that type of camera.

Since we are not spoiled with a whole slew of these types of FF mirrorless cameras from a variety of manufacturers then the evolution progression started with the Sony A7

Ok, I can see that... I figured you were stating that it is a A7 clone, like many others here do. Sorry.

If the Zenit is not vapour-ware then as Ko Fe said, it has to sell for less than a grand US when a new Sony A7 is selling for 900 usd body only.

Yeah, there is no way this is going to happen with Leica involved... and no way Zenit is competing in the same stores or with the same volume as Sony. They will have a different strategy no doubt.

FrozenInTime
09-19-2017, 18:44
Maybe the story is back to front :
Zenit KMZ flush with defense contract Rubles prepares to buy Blackstone's 45% share in Leica ;-)

farlymac
09-19-2017, 20:03
This is a story that needs time to gel. I wouldn't expect anything concrete for at least a few more months, and even that will be leaked out from the factory by a disgruntled, under paid employee.

It makes no sense for everyone to think Leica will be involved in Zenit's latest endeavor when their stated goal is to produce a premium product. The last thing Leica needs is competition in their market niche, especially a lower cost option.

Whatever Zenit comes out with though will be lauded by some, and trashed by others, but hopefully will be a viable product for the enjoyment of photography. And that it looks good sitting on the shelf with all my dead FEDs and Zorkis.:D

PF

xayraa33
09-19-2017, 20:20
Maybe who ever owns the Zenit brand name can get rights to the now long in the tooth Sony A7 and have the electronic internals made in China or Indonesia, do some cursory assembly in Russia and stick an M mount on it and supply it with the Jupiter 3+ and sell it for 1500 USD at the Lomography stores.

jaapv
09-20-2017, 01:58
I was taught that in most products, production cost is 25% of the consumer retail. This allows for profit by the maker, 100% mark up, distributor, and retailer. So, in theory, a one hundred dollar item cost twenty five dollars to produce.

With robotics pick and place, and off shore labor, these values may be incorrect. So, does the M10 cost $1750 USD to get out of the factory door? Assuming $7000 retail (I'm unsure of the current retail price?).

I owned (sold) a very expensive piece of electronic hardware. The maker (Japanese) ,knowing that the chipsets for this unit would not be made after their production runs, warehoused sets of replacement circuit boards for repair of this unit. The warehouse, located near salt water, was flooded in a storm and all the replacement parts were lost. When hearing of this, the value of the unit on the used market dropped. Many were quickly sold. This is the nature of unique chipsets with limited production runs.
Leica has to pay 1800 Euro for the sensor alone, as it is specific for their cameras and small-run production, let alone the rest. What to think of brass milled (in Germany) parts, the M rangefinder @ 800 Euro, the cast-and-milled in Germany bodyshells, limited-run knobs and wheels, etc.

PKR
09-20-2017, 02:52
Leica has to pay 1800 Euro for the sensor alone, as it is specific for their cameras and small-run production, let alone the rest. What to think of brass milled (in Germany) parts, the rangefinder @ 800 Euro, the cast-and-milled in Germany bodyshells, limited-run knobs and wheels, etc.

Seems as it has little to do with the quality of the files, it's just "stuff" that appeals to the Leica buyer. I don't like the plastic Nikon bodies, but in some instances they provide better protection than metal.

When I first used Leicas I had two M4s and 4 lenses. I did a lot of work with those cameras but, they were in the shop a lot for rangefinder adjustments. Still, they were fine cameras. But, things are different today. There are many options in good digital cameras. Among my pro friends, most use canon. I own Nikon and Fuji gear currently. I don't know any pro who uses Leica gear. The last was Jim Marshall, and he's passed on. Jim got special treatment from Leica because of his high profile. None of the Leica users I knew back then, could get repairs done as quickly as Jim did.

Brass bodies are great if you're into that with a digital camera. I prefer light weight equipment these days. We all pack batteries and chargers and sensor cleaning products.. along with backup devices and computers. But, I honestly think it wasn't the weight of a brass body that turned many pros away from Leica. It was the cost of owning two or three bodies that were very difficult to get repaired in a reasonable time along with a plethora of great alternatives. I was surprised to see Bill Allard and David Harvey, both formally Leica only users (for most all their stuff) moving to Nikon in Bill's case and Fuji in Harvey's.

For me and many others, cameras are a tool. Today, with the constant improvements in sensor design, it's a tool that isn't owned for years like a film camera. I think we will see some changes in the camera world over the next years. It will be interesting to see who survives the process. I'm sure the Leica brand will be around.

johannielscom
09-20-2017, 05:05
Seems as it has little to do with the quality of the files, it's just "stuff" that appeals to the Leica buyer. I don't like the plastic Nikon bodies, but in some instances they provide better protection than metal.

When I first used Leicas I had two M4s and 4 lenses. I did a lot of work with those cameras but, they were in the shop a lot for rangefinder adjustments. Still, they were fine cameras. But, things are different today. There are many options in good digital cameras. Among my pro friends, most use canon. I own Nikon and Fuji gear currently. I don't know any pro who uses Leica gear. The last was Jim Marshall, and he's passed on. Jim got special treatment from Leica because of his high profile. None of the Leica users I knew back then, could get repairs done as quickly as Jim did.

Brass bodies are great if you're into that with a digital camera. I prefer light weight equipment these days. We all pack batteries and chargers and sensor cleaning products.. along with backup devices and computers. But, I honestly think it wasn't the weight of a brass body that turned many pros away from Leica. It was the cost of owning two or three bodies that were very difficult to get repaired in a reasonable time along with a plethora of great alternatives. I was surprised to see Bill Allard and David Harvey, both formally Leica only users (for most all their stuff) moving to Nikon in Bill's case and Fuji in Harvey's.

For me and many others, cameras are a tool. Today, with the constant improvements in sensor design, it's a tool that isn't owned for years like a film camera. I think we will see some changes in the camera world over the next years. It will be interesting to see who survives the process. I'm sure the Leica brand will be around.

A very proficient take on the current situation of both Leica and other camera manufacturers.

Me, I decided to invest in Canon FD glass and shoot a Sony A7 (original) with it until I decide I need some other body. Light, cheap, expendable and sufficient quality to make the bride cry with joy when I deliver the images. :D:D

Michael Markey
09-20-2017, 07:36
Well summed up PKR.
I have three film M bodies .... great fun and lovely to use but for digital have sold my Canon body and moved to a Sony A7s .

Not a huge outlay ... takes all my lenses ,Leica ,Canon,Pentax.
The requirements for a modern digital body are a different ball game from the film bodies of old.

PKR
09-20-2017, 13:15
Well summed up PKR.
I have three film M bodies .... great fun and lovely to use but for digital have sold my Canon body and moved to a Sony A7s .

Not a huge outlay ... takes all my lenses ,Leica ,Canon,Pentax.
The requirements for a modern digital body are a different ball game from the film bodies of old.

It's interesting that in my day to day work I've been using APS-C sensor cameras for most of it. I'm slowly (mostly thinking and not acting) moving away from FF sensors. I can do this in some comfort as I can rent most anything up to a phase one locally. In looking at my past work I find I need a fairly wide lens on occasion (20mm in 35 equivalent), a micro, which I use for still life and some portraits, and a wide to mid range zoom. I look forward to reducing my equipment package by several pounds and two zooms that will finish most of their retirement in the cabinet. The FF gear will get sold or be given to my assistant.

I'll bet that none of my clients notice the change .. if and when it happens.

I've also begun using speed lights for some work when I would have packed up the small studio flash in the past. Lot of changes in my photo world. All good, so far.

The less equipment I pack, the more work I get done.

Michael Markey
09-20-2017, 13:40
I like the Sony FF sensors for my FF lenses otherwise sensor size isn`t an issue for me.

The outfit is still smaller than a Canon DSLR and makes a fair job of the sports stuff even using manual focus.


Otherwise I use two Sigma Merrills with their crop sensors for the more static stuff .
Their relatively large mp sensors allow me to crop so the outfit becomes much more flexible in terms of achievable reach without the need to carry longer lenses .

The overall direction though is as small a package as does the job.
If the Merrills were more responsive I`d use them for the sports shots instead if the Sony and the Canon 70-200/2.8

The limits that I could crop without loosing resolution would probably be sufficient for my needs.


I sometimes think of picking up a digital Leica for my Leica lenses but its difficult to see the advantage that would bring.
Certainly not image quality and I find focusing peaking more accurate / flexible and quicker than an RF.

Its like you say ... its the other stuff and I have that in my film bodies which are more reliable.

David Hughes
09-20-2017, 13:56
Maybe the story is back to front... Snip! ... ;-)

Yes, I wondered that as a lot of KMZ's and FED's cameras have been re-badged as Leicas and so...

Regards, David

PKR
09-20-2017, 13:58
I like the Sony FF sensors for my FF lenses otherwise sensor size isn`t an issue for me.

The outfit is still smaller than a Canon DSLR and makes a fair job of the sports stuff even using manual focus.


Otherwise I use two Sigma Merrills with their crop sensors for the more static stuff .
Their relatively large mp sensors allow me to crop so the outfit becomes much more flexible in terms of achievable reach without the need to carry longer lenses .

The overall direction though is as small a package as does the job.
If the Merrills were more responsive I`d use them for the sports shots instead if the Sony and the Canon 70-200/2.8

The limits that I could crop without loosing resolution would probably be sufficient for my needs.


I sometimes think of picking up a digital Leica for my Leica lenses but its difficult to see the advantage that would bring.
Certainly not image quality and I find focusing peaking more accurate / flexible and quicker than an RF.

Its like you say ... its the other stuff and I have that in my film bodies which are more reliable.

The thing that seems a constant is, wait a few months and you will have more options. In my work, lighting is the thing (hardware + knowledge) that separates the pros from most others. There are so many new small speed lights on the market that I'm not sure I've see all the variations. A while back I began building modifiers to use with my small speed lights (Nikon SB) and begin using them in the studio rather than the studio flash to see what I could do. After a few months of this, I became quite confident in their use. I have a 4x6 Ft soft light rig all lit with speed lights. Not good for my 100 ISO Neopan but, great with the digital cameras. It packs up small and fits in a bag.. less light stands and poles.

It's a wonderful portrait light.. all batteries, no wires, except the flash trigger when using it for portraits. Nikon CLS has an unwanted delay.

Michael, just a thought: I began picking my cameras by sensor rather than model (most have the same basic features). There are three sensor manufacturers I watch: Sony, Toshiba (they may be in $ trouble) and Nikon. Nikon doesn't make many, just a few for their top end cameras. Sony, by far, seems the current leader. But, some have claimed Nikon got better results with some Sony sensors than Sony has. This is camera specific. I'm not a pixel peeper, but want an overall look. The old Fuji S5 has a great, small pixel site count, sensor. I've kept my old S5 for some portrait work. X-Trans sensors are great for black and white. All this is up for grabs and changing constantly. I think it's worth watching.

David Hughes
09-20-2017, 13:59
And as for Zenit having a poor reputation, I seem to remember a lot of people raving about the new Jupiter 3+ lens not so long ago. So perhaps things have changed or perhaps their reputation is better than we see on the www. Not that you can believe much you read there...

Regards, David

Michael Markey
09-20-2017, 14:40
Michael, just a thought: I began picking my cameras by sensor rather than model (most have the same basic features). There are three sensor manufacturers I watch: Sony, Toshiba (they may be in $ trouble) and Nikon. Nikon doesn't make many, just a few for their top end cameras. Sony, by far, seems the current leader. But, some have claimed Nikon got better results with some Sony sensors than Sony has. This is camera specific. I'm not a pixel peeper, but want an overall look. The old Fuji S5 has a great, small pixel site count, sensor. I've kept my old S5 for some portrait work. X-Trans sensors are great for black and white. All this is up for grabs and changing constantly. I think it's worth watching.

Lights are something that I know nothing about :)

Its the overall look for me too.
Never used Nikon but I like what they seem to do with the Sony sensors.
I can`t for the life of me see what this rumored collaboration with Zenit is going to bring to an already over crowded party.

PKR
09-20-2017, 14:50
Lights are something that I know nothing about :)

Its the overall look for me too.
Never used Nikon but I like what they seem to do with the Sony sensors.
I can`t for the life of me see what this rumored collaboration with Zenit is going to bring to an already over crowded party.

It could just be a red dot branding of a new Zeint, or a collaborative effort for a new camera.. or just hot air.

Lots of crazy stuff on the interweb. Wait and see??

ptpdprinter
09-20-2017, 15:00
I can`t for the life of me see what this rumored collaboration with Zenit is going to bring to an already over crowded party.
A cheap body for your Summilux SL 50mm?

BlackXList
09-20-2017, 15:08
It makes no sense for everyone to think Leica will be involved in Zenit's latest endeavor when their stated goal is to produce a premium product. The last thing Leica needs is competition in their market niche, especially a lower cost option.

PF

Why not? They already do exactly that with Panasonic, and some people still pay over the odds for the exact same camera with a red dot on it.

PKR
09-20-2017, 15:18
Why not? They already do exactly that with Panasonic, and some people still pay over the odds for the exact same camera with a red dot on it.

A pal's sister is a sales person at a VW Porsche dealership. She told him that she quietly laughs when selling a Porsche branded mini SUV. She told him it's almost identical to the VW model except for leather seats and some interior appointments and the Porsche logo and wheels. I think he said it came in different colors than the VW too. It cost $20k more than the VW model. That's what branding is about.

Huss
09-20-2017, 15:37
And as for Zenit having a poor reputation, I seem to remember a lot of people raving about the new Jupiter 3+ lens not so long ago. So perhaps things have changed or perhaps their reputation is better than we see on the www. Not that you can believe much you read there...

Regards, David

The Zenit/Helios lenses are great. I have many.
The cameras suck. I have two NOS ones (a 12sd and a TTL)
But of course I still enjoy using the cameras!

Huss
09-20-2017, 15:40
A pal's sister is a sales person at a VW Porsche dealership. She told him that she quietly laughs when selling a Porsche branded mini SUV. She told him it's almost identical to the VW model except for leather seats and some interior appointments and the Porsche logo and wheels. I think he said it came in different colors than the VW too. It cost $20k more than the VW model. That's what branding is about.


Naah. Perhaps the base chassis the similar, but the bodies are different, the motors are at a much higher state of tune (and some are different), the steering and suspension set ups are different, the brakes are different, the interior is different.
But apart from that, they are the same.

Now Chevy Suburban/GMC Tahoe/Cadillac Escalade - the first two are the same, the Caddy is a jazzed up version.

jaapv
09-20-2017, 16:33
Seems as it has little to do with the quality of the files, it's just "stuff" that appeals to the Leica buyer. I don't like the plastic Nikon bodies, but in some instances they provide better protection than metal.

When I first used Leicas I had two M4s and 4 lenses. I did a lot of work with those cameras but, they were in the shop a lot for rangefinder adjustments. Still, they were fine cameras. But, things are different today. There are many options in good digital cameras. Among my pro friends, most use canon. I own Nikon and Fuji gear currently. I don't know any pro who uses Leica gear. The last was Jim Marshall, and he's passed on. Jim got special treatment from Leica because of his high profile. None of the Leica users I knew back then, could get repairs done as quickly as Jim did.

Brass bodies are great if you're into that with a digital camera. I prefer light weight equipment these days. We all pack batteries and chargers and sensor cleaning products.. along with backup devices and computers. But, I honestly think it wasn't the weight of a brass body that turned many pros away from Leica. It was the cost of owning two or three bodies that were very difficult to get repaired in a reasonable time along with a plethora of great alternatives. I was surprised to see Bill Allard and David Harvey, both formally Leica only users (for most all their stuff) moving to Nikon in Bill's case and Fuji in Harvey's.

For me and many others, cameras are a tool. Today, with the constant improvements in sensor design, it's a tool that isn't owned for years like a film camera. I think we will see some changes in the camera world over the next years. It will be interesting to see who survives the process. I'm sure the Leica brand will be around.
You are in the wrong forum for pros using Leica, they tend to congregate on LUF and DPI.

PKR
09-20-2017, 16:52
Naah. Perhaps the base chassis the similar, but the bodies are different, the motors are at a much higher state of tune (and some are different), the steering and suspension set ups are different, the brakes are different, the interior is different.
But apart from that, they are the same.

Now Chevy Suburban/GMC Tahoe/Cadillac Escalade - the first two are the same, the Caddy is a jazzed up version.

This was a few years back and I'm not a car buff. So, I know little about either. The one she spoke of had the same engine and chassis I think..

I'm more of an old pickup truck guy. Simple stuff.

Huss
09-20-2017, 16:55
I'm more of an old pickup truck guy. Simple stuff.

I'm w/ you. I'm a Jeep dood. Need a vehicle that can take me, my dogs and my gear wherever the road goes, or ends.

rbiemer
09-20-2017, 17:24
If Leica wanted to sell more product and not compete with themselves, maybe a collaboration like this would let them sell more products while competing with the generations of used Leica film gear?


Rob

farlymac
09-20-2017, 19:22
Why not? They already do exactly that with Panasonic, and some people still pay over the odds for the exact same camera with a red dot on it.

Ah, but that is where Leica takes a known product, and upscales it to their standard. If they are collaborating with Zenit, they are working the opposite angle, creating a less expensive competitor version of one of their established systems. How can that help the bottom line, unless they also have invested in Zenit? KMZ is only making the lenses, and have been very coy about where the camera will be assembled.

I'm just going to wait until something hits the shelves before I make any more judgements about the camera.

PF

asparis
09-20-2017, 20:28
<Snip>
I owned (sold) a very expensive piece of electronic hardware. The maker (Japanese) ,knowing that the chipsets for this unit would not be made after their production runs, warehoused sets of replacement circuit boards for repair of this unit. The warehouse, located near salt water, was flooded in a storm and all the replacement parts were lost. When hearing of this, the value of the unit on the used market dropped. Many were quickly sold. This is the nature of unique chipsets with limited production runs.

The lesson there, which seems obvious in hindsight, is "Don't build your warehouse in a low place by the ocean."
(Or your nuclear reactor either.)

DougFord
09-20-2017, 20:31
If they're going to use common parts among the two companies...
Also, maybe we'll see Putin posing with a gold plated Zenit SL someday.

jaapv
09-21-2017, 01:56
Unlikely. The Russian top dogs are already well stocked up on Leicas.

valdas
09-21-2017, 02:13
Unlikely. The Russian top dogs are already well stocked up on Leicas.

They are never "stocked up" :)

David Hughes
09-21-2017, 03:26
The Zenit/Helios lenses are great. I have many.
The cameras suck. I have two NOS ones (a 12sd and a TTL)
But of course I still enjoy using the cameras!

Hmm, the trouble with new old stock is that they've been sitting on a shelf and that can cause problems that are not really anything to do with the makers. I've seen stuff on display a few inches under spotlights (pointing at other items) and have put my hand up to see / feel if they were getting baked in the heat and they were. So I guess the lubrication will have liquidised well beyond the spec. and run or, worse, dripped elsewhere and so on.

I've even seen bottle of wine and Champagne sitting and simmering on or near spotlights. You'd think they'd know better.

Anyway, spend as much time and money on a FED, Zenit or Zorki as you do on a more precious camera and the results will surprise you. And you don't get those dreadful copper carbonate messes on the old USSR ones, which is more than I can say of others who should know better but ...

Regards, David

Spanik
09-21-2017, 03:51
I don't see why not. Zenith has made slr's and lenses for a long time but they don't have any experience with sensors, processor and the associated colour knowledge. Leica can provide that and as a bonus the prices for common semiconductors can lower because of higher volumes. And as both formfactor and lensmount are different they stay out of each others market. Looks sensible to me.

Michael Markey
09-21-2017, 04:51
A cheap body for your Summilux SL 50mm?


Well there is that :D

David Hughes
09-21-2017, 12:35
Why not? They already do exactly that with Panasonic, and some people still pay over the odds for the exact same camera with a red dot on it.

Hi,

FWIW, some time ago due to a chance comment I managed to get my hands on a digital Leica whilst I still had the Panasonic version.

Please bear in mind that I have no interest in the package of software on the CD and never touched it from either pack. Try as I may - once I'd set the things up as I liked them - I could not see any real difference.

But, just one point, the case with the Leica was a lot better quality than the Panasonic one. OTOH, I've used it once in a long time as the cameras were my slip into the pocket ones like the Olympus µ - V (a 35mm film one).

Regards, David

David Hughes
09-21-2017, 12:39
Over a decade ago I saw several Leica mount lenses online that were obviously prototypes. Copies of The Summicron 40mm and 90mm. They were Kaleinar-branded.

Not sure if KMZ or Zenit were involved with that, but the interest in Leica has been around for a while in the former USSR

Hi,

That is very, very interesting, thanks.

Regards, David

jsrockit
10-02-2017, 05:17
Based on M9?

https://photorumors.com/2017/10/01/rumors-zenit-d1-mirrorless-full-frame-digital-camera-based-on-leica-m9-new-zenitar-lenses-for-leica-m-mount/

Ko.Fe.
10-02-2017, 07:46
They already have Jupiter-3, Minotar-1 and Russar lenses made locally for it.

If they will keep their pricing promise to be in mobile phones pricing, I'll take my number in the waiting line. But Russian bureaucrat who was mentioned it most likely has phone made with gold...

xayraa33
10-02-2017, 08:26
30% less than the price of a new Leica is still much more than a top of the line currently made cell phone. And the M9 is old technology by now in the digital camera world.

vytasn
10-02-2017, 14:05
I think this is the latest ... Zenit D1 will be based on M9.

https://leicarumors.com/2017/10/01/rumors-the-new-zenit-d1-mirrorless-full-frame-digital-camera-could-be-a-limited-edition-based-on-the-leica-m9-new-zenitar-lenses-for-leica-m-mount.aspx/

Huss
10-02-2017, 15:13
"For example, the time of manufacturing the "top cover" is 19 minutes. "

Not 18, not 20, but 19!

As is it a limited run based on the M9, I have a feeling this is a way to clear out old inventory/parts.