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willie_901
07-21-2017, 08:07
Here's (https://en.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-TL/Leica-TL2) Leica's newest APS-C offering.

There seems to be a hiccup (https://en.leica-camera.com/World-of-Leica/Leica-News/Global/2017/Important-Information-from-Leica-Camera-AG).

Archlich
07-21-2017, 08:14
I find it's no longer relevant...nothing unique, except the price tag. And the turnaround time to fix that hiccup, maybe.

Dogman
07-21-2017, 09:11
I don't get the TL series at all. It's goofy looking, lacks a viewfinder and, now, comes with an optional defective accessory EVF. I get that Leica is breaking into the AF interchangeable lens APS-C market--a Very Good Thing, IMO--but they should have done a better job.

The only people who would like this camera are the people who would like anything badged "Leica" just because it's a Leica. (And I'm a big fan of Leicas...just not these.)

dourbalistar
07-21-2017, 10:13
You'd think even the most basic product testing would have revealed that issue. What the heck is with Leica's quality effort?

John

Leica engineers took "machined from a single brick" too literally. ;)

jkcampbell
07-21-2017, 10:39
I don't get the TL series at all. It's goofy looking, lacks a viewfinder and, now, comes with an optional defective accessory EVF. I get that Leica is breaking into the AF interchangeable lens APS-C market--a Very Good Thing, IMO--but they should have done a better job.

The only people who would like this camera are the people who would like anything badged "Leica" just because it's a Leica. (And I'm a big fan of Leicas...just not these.)

So since you don't get the concept then it's invalid and anyone who buys into the TL concept is only doing so to show off the brand?

The TL isn't for everyone the same way a rangerfinder or mirrorless or a DSLR isn't perfect for everyone.

Ken Ford
07-21-2017, 10:41
Tough crowd. If I had $3k lying around I'd grab a TL2 with a 23 and EVF, no question. I like the design, I just wouldn't want it to be my only camera.

Leica doesn't have a monopoly on deployment hiccups. At least they jumped right on it and are testing a fix already, Canikony would still be trying to schedule internal meetings on how to spin things.

splitimageview
07-21-2017, 10:46
Leica doesn't have a monopoly on deployment hiccups.

They appear to be the market leader in this segment however.

Huss
07-21-2017, 10:54
Leica doesn't have a monopoly on deployment hiccups. At least they jumped right on it and are testing a fix already, Canikony would still be trying to schedule internal meetings on how to spin things.

Spin? Leica originally told customers that they only recommend them to shoot wide open so that they would not see sensor issues....

Just got a recall notice for my D750. Even though mine shows no issue, Nikon is providing a complete shutter replacement. In a one week turnaround, UPS mailer provided for free.
Makes Leica's 24-48 week turnaround on the M9 sensor issue look kinda weak, no?

Ken Ford
07-21-2017, 12:58
Spin? Leica originally told customers that they only recommend them to shoot wide open so that they would not see sensor issues....

Just got a recall notice for my D750. Even though mine shows no issue, Nikon is providing a complete shutter replacement. In a one week turnaround, UPS mailer provided for free.
Makes Leica's 24-48 week turnaround on the M9 sensor issue look kinda weak, no?

IIRC Nikon took quite some time to even acknowledge the D750 shutter issues, and that was on the heels of the D600 fiasco. Nikon has since stepped up to the plate, but in each case it took (again, IIRC) months.

Here Leica acknowledged the issue and fielded a fix for testing in less than a week.

Why is everyone beating up Leica for doing the right thing?

jsrockit
07-21-2017, 13:44
The T series seems to be Leica's answer to those who want a Leica, want it to be "affordable" and want AF. I would imagine it does better the Leica Boutique stores than in camera stores.

splitimageview
07-21-2017, 15:15
Why is everyone beating up Leica for doing the right thing?

Not beating them up for doing what they must do, rather, just stating that they have a relatively poor track record over the past few years:

Starting with the M8 magenta problem, along the way there were loose strap lugs, deteriorating sensors, coffee stain LCD, running out of spare parts, SD card incompatibility, banding, streaking, rainbows, green ghosts, transistors, recalls, M10 ISO problem, and now an EVF that doesn't work. This isn't a complete list, either.

Every manufacturer of digital devices has issues of one sort or another, but they seem to be the norm with Leica which isn't what should be associated with a premium brand. And their service department is another story, that's covered elsewhere...

Archlich
07-21-2017, 20:26
Let us (or me) face it: the T/TL is not an unique offering like the Q and M - for which Leica could ask for whatever they want and have people queuing up for months, since those lack direct competitors.

The TL (and perhaps the SL, especially now Sony has the "professional" a9 out) is another story. It came late into a saturated market, with powerful, established rivals that sell for less than half Leica asks for. Fuji offers 23 (soon to be 25) lenses while Leica has 6 (plus the 3 ultra expensive and gigantic SL lenses - try see a TL with the 90-280 bazooka attached for a jaw-dropping experience), and who could say the TL could provide something that is amiss in the similarly priced X-Pro 2 , except the subjective "Leica signature"? - buy into that and you'd be buying the Leica brand, which at least to me is hard to justify.

Dunk
07-28-2017, 03:57
Leica's track record is no better and no worse than the other 'big name' camera manufacturers as regards teething problems with new digital camera introductions … but the Leica naysayers make more 'box office' out of Leica'a alleged failings than they do of e.g. Nikon's and Canon's recalls. The TL2 'freeze' problem has now been remedied via a firmware update. My TL2 did not freeze when using the Viso … maybe I was lucky … but now the new firmware is installed I'm using the camera again with both TL lenses and legacy lenses and with the Viso. Leica Camera AG likely has a logistics problem recalling and replacing the TL2 bodies which did 'freeze' but I would not be surprised if TL2 sales resume a.s.a.p. with the much improved camera attracting new buyers.

dunk

infrequent
07-28-2017, 22:45
Enough has been said about the aesthetics and built of these cameras, it certainly looks like the camera of the future. Also worth noting is Leica's attention to detail to the UI and the touchscreen and my fave part: built in storage. The companion app on iOS looks quality compared to Fuji in these regards.

If you are someone like who wants to use a APS-C sized camera with some manual M/LTM lenses (the TL2 finally has focus peaking), this camera and Fuji E-X* line are the only realistic options. Wish I had the money for a TL2 though!

Lss
07-28-2017, 23:19
Let us (or me) face it: the T/TL is not an unique offering like the Q and M - for which Leica could ask for whatever they want and have people queuing up for months, since those lack direct competitors.
The Leica T/TL is a unique offering in terms of the UI implementation. The original announcement was in fact quite exciting to many people for this very reason (of course, most discussions were about 45 minutes of hand polishing). As far as I have followed the market, it still today lacks a direct alternative outside the smartphone segment.

I have never had a chance to try one, and I therefore cannot tell whether the implementation is actually any good.

Lss
07-28-2017, 23:21
If you are someone like who wants to use a APS-C sized camera with some manual M/LTM lenses (the TL2 finally has focus peaking), this camera and Fuji E-X* line are the only realistic options.
The Sony bodies are generally a better fit for M/LTM lenses than the Fuji bodies.

infrequent
07-29-2017, 02:39
The Sony bodies are generally a better fit for M/LTM lenses than the Fuji bodies.

How so? Pretty much any comparison I have seen suggests Fuji as the most hashed out and designed with photographers in mind than Sony. As for EVF (which is ideal for focusing lenses manually) the X-E2s and X-T2 are likely the best in the market currently. Is lens compatibility better on Sony bodies?

Lss
07-29-2017, 05:28
Is lens compatibility better on Sony bodies?
Yes, it is better. There is some variance for the Sonys, while I guess all the Fujis are pretty much equally mediocre/bad.

Ken Ford
07-29-2017, 05:34
Yes, it is better. There is some variance for the Sonys, while I guess all the Fujis are pretty much equally mediocre/bad.

I have to disagree with this based on my personal experience and that of others I've seen. My NEX7 was used mainly with adapted lenses (Zuikos, mostly) and I've tried my X gear with adapted M, Zuiko and Nikon glass. It all worked well, just not my thing anymore for most uses.

Lss
07-29-2017, 05:44
My experience is in favor of Sony over Fuji. But the main point really is that the Leica T/TL and the Fuji cameras are not the only realistic options for using M/LTM glass on APS-C. The Sony bodies are very capable.

Ken Ford
07-29-2017, 07:42
That I will agree with - the NEX7 in particular was a dream with adapted lenses.

robert blu
07-29-2017, 08:32
Back to the TL2 ...
I find it an interesting idea well realized by Leica. High mage quality, small size and native lenses are up to the Leica name. The only criticism IMO is the size of some of the lenses, like the Summilux TL 35 1,4 which is huge...
As companion to my M7 I went on a more traditional way (M10) but still interested in this camera and think nice to see Leica exploring innovative ways.

robert

jaapv
07-29-2017, 17:28
That I will agree with - the NEX7 in particular was a dream with adapted lenses.
Really? I've used it extensively that way and hate the amount of work needed to get a decent colour and good tonal values out of the files. The EVF is ho-hum, focus peaking a disaster. And the "rubber" falls off.
Plus is that it is light and compact and a decent backup for my M240.

willie_901
08-02-2017, 05:42
Kudos to Leica.

Leica just announced the Visoflex issue is resolved via a firmware download (Firmware 1.1).

MCTuomey
08-02-2017, 08:01
TL2 looks attractive to me, although my aps-c gear is Fuji today and my momentum continues to be Fuji.

This crowd IS really tough.

To paraphrase what's said about gear: Some people look hard at camera maker mistakes, while other people look hard at camera maker achievements.