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View Full Version : Hold off on the M10, Konost coming end of 2017


Huss
02-13-2017, 11:30
Hopefully...

http://konost.com/2016/12/24/2016-what-a-year-and-the-future-of-konost/

"...Despite all this, we actually have a very exciting future ahead. Weve switched to a custom sensor, one that has been designed and manufactured specifically for the Konost cameras. This allows our business model to be more cost effective, increase our margins, and provide competitively priced full-frame digital cameras.

We have also been able to work out key strategic alliances, partners, and funding, which will help us bring our products to the market. Additionally, our team has grown significantly in experience, talent, and headcount.

This will push production versions of the Konost rangefinders to Q3-Q4 of 2017. Were still working on releasing limited edition beta versions of the rangefinder in the first half of 2017. Despite the delay in launching, weve actually been able to cross major hurdles in order to move forward in creating amazing cameras.

We thank everyone whos written to us and supported us along the way. Please subscribe to our newsletter to stay up to date with our progress as 2017 will be a very big year."

Jamie Pillers
02-13-2017, 11:34
DEFINITELY hopeful!

Hopefully...

http://konost.com/2016/12/24/2016-what-a-year-and-the-future-of-konost/

"...Despite all this, we actually have a very exciting future ahead. Weve switched to a custom sensor, one that has been designed and manufactured specifically for the Konost cameras. This allows our business model to be more cost effective, increase our margins, and provide competitively priced full-frame digital cameras.

We have also been able to work out key strategic alliances, partners, and funding, which will help us bring our products to the market. Additionally, our team has grown significantly in experience, talent, and headcount.

This will push production versions of the Konost rangefinders to Q3-Q4 of 2017. Were still working on releasing limited edition beta versions of the rangefinder in the first half of 2017. Despite the delay in launching, weve actually been able to cross major hurdles in order to move forward in creating amazing cameras.

We thank everyone whos written to us and supported us along the way. Please subscribe to our newsletter to stay up to date with our progress as 2017 will be a very big year."

Emile de Leon
02-13-2017, 12:20
Uh...sure...yup..they are going to go head to head w/Leica..
I'm going to feed my unicorn now..lol..

jsrockit
02-13-2017, 12:29
Uh...sure...yup..they are going to go head to head w/Leica..
I'm going to feed my unicorn now..lol..

Wow, you have a unicorn? :eek:

(The company never said it was going head to head with anyone)

uhoh7
02-13-2017, 17:51
Uh...sure...yup..they are going to go head to head w/Leica..
I'm going to feed my unicorn now..lol..

How much does that M shooting A7 eat? :D

6600 leaves plenty of room for a nice small M body. Splash of M10 does not hurt one bit. :)

Huss
02-13-2017, 18:02
Uh...sure...yup..they are going to go head to head w/Leica..
I'm going to feed my unicorn now..lol..

do not feed it tuna.

raid
02-13-2017, 18:35
What will be the cost?
Is there a chance to try one out to report about it?

michaelwj
02-13-2017, 18:46
Uh...sure...yup..they are going to go head to head w/Leica..
I'm going to feed my unicorn now..lol..

Can you collect it's farts (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/244040-please-correct-me-if-im-wrong-about-75mm-apo-summilux-m-asph-f14/?p=2803560) so we can make some more Noctilux's?

:D

michaelwj
02-13-2017, 18:50
Fart jokes aside, It will need to be no more expensive that the A7 to any real impact, unless it works as good as the M10 with wides, in which case they still need to get it in under the price of a used M240 (and ideally under the price of a used M9).

I'd buy a used M9 that I know I can send to be repaired in a few years if need be, over an unknown product from an unknown company with unknown repairability or resale. It's an uphill battle.

raid
02-13-2017, 18:58
A used M9 sells these days for $2500.

damonsong
02-13-2017, 19:05
Might not be bad to have some competition, or can push leica to be more innovative.

I personally still hopeful to see M5 style of viewfinder and shutter speed dial... that to me offers the best RF shooting experience.

ruby.monkey
02-13-2017, 19:37
Who is going to produce a 'custom sensor' (full-frame, no less) in the tiny numbers this camera will require?

raid
02-13-2017, 19:46
Home Depot?

Keith
02-13-2017, 20:04
Home Depot?


That's best laugh I've had today Raid! :D

Stephen G
02-13-2017, 20:25
Who is going to produce a 'custom sensor' (full-frame, no less) in the tiny numbers this camera will require?

I will.
I sent them a link to my kickstarter.
I need $500,000 to setup my production line to start shipping sensors @ $500/piece.
Don't worry I have all the kinks worked out in my POC, and lots of experience.
I'm totally gonna be shipping by November.
Also check out all the cool rewards I give to people that contribute more than $500.
For $10,000 you get a cool hat.
For $100,000 I will invite you to come visit me and have coffee.

Did I mention I'm totally going to be shipping this year?
Just get me that $500k.

mjc
02-13-2017, 20:31
How long has this extended product launch been now? :-)

Their current FAQ is a gem:

"Is the design finalized?
No, we’re still iterating the aesthetics, UI, and overall product design based on testing and feedbacks. If you have any suggestions, or even want to help with the design process, please contact us."

larmarv916
02-13-2017, 20:35
I will.
I sent them a link to my kickstarter.
I need $500,000 to setup my production line to start shipping sensors @ $500/piece.
Don't worry I have all the kinks worked out in my POC, and lots of experience.
I'm totally gonna be shipping by November.
Also check out all the cool rewards I give to people that contribute more than $500.
For $10,000 you get a cool hat.
For $100,000 I will invite you to come visit me and have coffee.

Did I mention I'm totally going to be shipping this year?
Just get me that $500k.

Hey...its a shame you didnt mention this before. Lets hope it happens.

quejai
02-13-2017, 20:53
Would be nice if they released a bit more specific info / pics now and then. I'd like to stick one of their sensors in the backdoor of a bessa, that would be easier and more lucrative than building a whole new camera. If they do get that sensor made, that would be a huge achievement. Have to admit, designing high-end equipment without financial lubricant is difficult, especially in a dying market with a huge team.

hap
02-13-2017, 20:57
Well, if they pull it off.....we shall see the actual premium being charged for the real Leica.

It seems , however, improbably and implausible. I guess that's why we are pulling for Konost.

michaelwj
02-13-2017, 22:00
I will.
I sent them a link to my kickstarter.
I need $500,000 to setup my production line to start shipping sensors @ $500/piece.
Don't worry I have all the kinks worked out in my POC, and lots of experience.
I'm totally gonna be shipping by November.
Also check out all the cool rewards I give to people that contribute more than $500.
For $10,000 you get a cool hat.
For $100,000 I will invite you to come visit me and have coffee.

Did I mention I'm totally going to be shipping this year?
Just get me that $500k.

I assume the setup costs need to be paid every 100 sensors? Sounds like a good deal!
For $10,000 do I still get to buy the coffee?
Amazing deal!
:D

Stephen G
02-14-2017, 04:46
I assume the setup costs need to be paid every 100 sensors? Sounds like a good deal!
For $10,000 do I still get to buy the coffee?
Amazing deal!
:D

Yes, but for $20,000 I buy the coffee!

raid
02-14-2017, 05:08
That's best laugh I've had today Raid! :D

Home Depot seems to sell "everything", so ... :D
Loewe is catching up!

expwmbat
02-14-2017, 06:20
A used M9 sells these days for $2500.

And for that you can get two used A7IIs. Sure, the wides might not be what the M9 offers for M glass, but IBIS and high ISO more than make up for it...

willie_901
02-14-2017, 06:21
...I'd like to stick one of their sensors in the backdoor of a bessa, that would be easier and more lucrative than building a whole new camera. If they do get that sensor made, that would be a huge achievement.
...


It would not be easier.

The physical restrictions of a body designed for film would be a handicap compared to designing a body with dimensions optimized for the sensor assembly's optics

The mechanical stuff is relatively easy. Just copy existing finder designs and outsourcing the production is relatively simple. Surely RF mechanism patents have expired. Shutters are nothing special either (especially if one is not tied to a certain body dimensions). Who knows maybe Cosina would sell them Bessa components?

The challenge is building a computer system from scratch. The task of assembly language development and testing is significant. Who designs the user interface? Who develops the processing engine? Using DNG raw as the imaging engine output would be smart since creating yet another proprietary raw file format is unnecessary.

Another huge task is sourcing a color-filter array and micro lens assemblies as well as cover glass/IR filter components from someone such as Fujifilm Electronic Materials (http://www.fujifilmusa.com/products/semiconductor_materials/image-sensor-color-mosaic/index.html). Perhaps whoever is supplying the sensor photo-diode array chip for Konost is also integrating the components into a complete sensor assembly. I would hope so.

I completely agree that building a digital imaging data stream from scratch would be a "huge achievement".

raid
02-14-2017, 06:30
And for that you can get two used A7IIs. Sure, the wides might not be what the M9 offers for M glass, but IBIS and high ISO more than make up for it...

I never said otherwise. Someone mentioned the Leica, so I posted its current used market value.

nightfly
02-14-2017, 06:31
By the time the Konost actually ships, I should be able to afford a used M10.

Ko.Fe.
02-14-2017, 06:32
It is all ferrania to me.

brennanphotoguy
02-14-2017, 06:34
I still say this is all vaporware.

Huss
02-14-2017, 08:18
And for that you can get two used A7IIs. Sure, the wides might not be what the M9 offers for M glass, but IBIS and high ISO more than make up for it...

How does IBIS and high ISO make up for smeary pictures due to M lens/sensor glass incompatibility?

Huss
02-14-2017, 08:19
By the time the Konost actually ships, I should be able to afford a used M11.

Corrected...

DanskDynamit
02-14-2017, 08:37
I'm going to feed my unicorn now..lol..

don't feed it after midnight.:eek:

Archlich
02-14-2017, 11:39
Still the same model, just another rendering...woosh.

kbg32
02-14-2017, 12:11
You'd think they would have had a working prototype to show by now. All I see is the same similar rendering. I'll believe this when I see an actual working model.

jsrockit
02-14-2017, 12:16
Jeez, so many think it takes one year to design and manufacture a camera from scratch. Why do so many seem offended by this?

Corran
02-14-2017, 12:28
It is all ferrania to me.

???

(10char)

Corran
02-14-2017, 12:46
Yes I know who Ferrania is, I backed their KS. Context????

nightfly
02-14-2017, 12:49
I don't think it's that people underestimate the task that Konost have taken on for themselves. More that they continually over promise and under deliver to the point where you can't really take them seriously.

They should probably shut up till they have something closer to production rather than piss people off by posting unrealistic time frames and then going silent for year at a time.

brennanphotoguy
02-14-2017, 12:53
Under deliver isn't the right term. That implies they have something physical or meaningful to deliver. Does anyone here have any reason to suspect that they are working on anything at all? They have done nothing but float the same or slightly altered 3D renderings around for a long time.

nasmformyzombie
02-14-2017, 13:10
The negativity in the thread is astounding. Why not wish these guys the best? I for one would like to see a viable, less expensive alternative to the grossly overpriced offerings from the bling specialists, Leica.

raid
02-14-2017, 13:14
I wish them the best. We are just joking about it. No negativity is implied.

Alfonso B
02-14-2017, 13:16
They should probably shut up till they have something closer to production rather than piss people off by posting unrealistic time frames and then going silent for year at a time.

They shut up for years. Maybe to focus on actual development? I'm not pissed off as they didn't promise me anything. A startup company can not completely "shut up" and hide away as they need investors and partners. Calling it vapourware is by todays standards rather ignorant as they have not asked for any customer money nor have they promised a market product..

rbrooks
02-14-2017, 13:21
Why is everyone reacting negatively? Surely this can only be taken as good or neutral news? Has anyone lost money or energy/time on these guys yet? If not, then take it as a long shot that they can deliver -- but if they do then we have an interesting alternative/option in the market.

CameraQuest
02-14-2017, 14:13
It would be wonderful to see another new production digital rangefinder choice besides Leica.

Let's see what they can do.

Keith
02-14-2017, 14:27
I don't think the time frame is an issue. Each new camera that hits the shelves has usually had several years of development behind it. Leica spent a lot of time developing their M8 and still managed to release it into the market with some flaws.

I really hope Konost do come up with something ... but the longer this process goes on the less likely the camera is to be a success in my opinion because every month that passes another handful of used M9s and 240s etc hits the streets.

user237428934
02-14-2017, 14:32
The negativity in the thread is astounding. Why not wish these guys the best? I for one would like to see a viable, less expensive alternative to the grossly overpriced offerings from the bling specialists, Leica.

The negativity in your post towards Leica is astounding. Especially because you criticize the negativity of other people here.

jsrockit
02-14-2017, 14:34
Under deliver isn't the right term. That implies they have something physical or meaningful to deliver. Does anyone here have any reason to suspect that they are working on anything at all? They have done nothing but float the same or slightly altered 3D renderings around for a long time.

Conversely, does anyone here have any reason to suspect they are lying? What would they gain from just trolling? I mean, they didn't do a Kickstarter and take people's money. They haven't come out and said it was just a project for a class. If it doesn't come out, who cares? It doesn't change my life. Does anyone here have any reason to suspect they are lying or is it just easy to be cynical on the internet?

Huss
02-14-2017, 14:55
I would love to see this happen. Some people don't want to buy a used camera and cannot afford or see the value in a new Leica. This would be the alternative.

uhoh7
02-14-2017, 14:57
I don't think it's that people underestimate the task that Konost have taken on for themselves. More that they continually over promise and under deliver to the point where you can't really take them seriously.

They should probably shut up till they have something closer to production rather than piss people off by posting unrealistic time frames and then going silent for year at a time.

Can you quote some of their promises, which have you so disappointed? You wonder why people have negative impressions of photographers, read this thread. Rude, ignorant and demanding. I guess that's because anyone can pick up a camera, but using one alot takes insensitivity. ;) So probably there is an actual filter for rudeness in photographers.

However, there are also lots of nice photographers, so if you are one, please disregard that comment. :)

One thing I've noticed is pre-production whining has no impact whatever on sales. In the lead up to the release of the A7, it was incredible the negative input from so many members in several forums I frequented at the time. What really amazed me is how many harsh critics just suddenly bought one, as soon as they had the chance. One guy went from attacking Sony point by point on their A7 manual, which he downloaded, to just buying one. His diatribe ceased in a day.

Hopefully if any poor soul at this little startup is reading this thread, they know that.

People think it takes some miracle to make a FF sensor that will shoot M glass as well as a M9 or M240. You have to have all sorts of special traits and design it from scratch, right?

Leica has never done anything except pick off the shelf items, which already existed. The biggest single factor is the glass on the sensor. Sony has 2.6mm in total. M9 has .8mm. Shoot a light ray towards the edge at sharp angle which will alter it's course less?

In fact, the Sony sensor is very likely just as good as any Leica sensor, given a similar glass thickness. While such changes have been made to many DSLR sensors in the past, pulling coverglass and filter stacks is nothing new, only a few have done it "all the way" to a A7, or in this case the A7rii:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2304/32492342360_ac254041a1_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/RveKnj)
Testshot (https://flic.kr/p/RveKnj) by Charlie Webster (https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/), ZM 21/4.5 Test by Sam Lee @ f/5.6

The normal Kolari mod, understandably, does not touch the glued base .7mm clear coverglass, so it's thin-filter goes on above that, and reduces total glass thickness over the sensor from 2.6 to 1.5mm and that really helps alot, but the still thinner M240 is still better with many wides, though not the SEM 18 or 28 Lux.. Above NK in Taiwan has pulled off the base coverglass and sealed the sensor against a .7mm IR cut. No other glass. Thinner than Leica. No lens profile or corner fix applied. This is one of the first Sony cameras in the world to have this done, and now it's known that other IR cut options make a more natural WB, at .85mm.

What this shows is Konost is not chasing unicorns. ZM 21/4.5 is famous for huge red edge on the M240. This Sony is looking actually better, and at 42 mp with the steepest ray angles of any ZM lens. You can see the full on flickr, and it seems to be focused at infinity, so the edge to observe is on the left. My jaw dropped at the visible details. No crop. My own limited edit from Sam's RAW file. I seriously question if any current Leica could do better before the profile. If one lens lover and his tech can hit these notes starting with an off the shelf A7rii, you think Konost can't find a sensor to shoot M?

Konost knows full well they cannot charge too much money, and that was never the plan anyway. I'd guess it's the sourcing to keep pricing low which is what they are up to. Leica had to do the same thing, since they don't make any of the fundamentals themselves, but assemble. Check me there if somebody knows better.

A small Barnack style M body is doable, and inevitable. Alot more people would be interested in that than a new film camera. This same little Konost could take all sorts of other lenses as well. Look at how many adapters were suddenly made for the Nex-5. The majority of this market is not in the west at all. :)

Many they will not pull it off. It's nice they try, and others will too. In today's very tight market, a niche is not nothing. And this particular niche is occupied by a core of RF lens zealots who will not settle for small sensors or a few native prime options. :)

nasmformyzombie
02-14-2017, 15:30
The negativity in your post towards Leica is astounding. Especially because you criticize the negativity of other people here.

Leica doesn't need my encouragement. Leica has already mastered separating people from their money using off the shelf digital components that other cameras makers incorporate and introduce sooner and at far less cost to the consumer---and not to mention in a manner that is likely far better executed. At one time Leica pioneered the development of 35mm photography and was the camera of choice for professionals. Today Leica seems more interested in limited edition bling. Perhaps this is the only business model for them that works. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

I am rooting for Konost. In the meantime I will enjoy using my M3. Now that's a camera from Leica's long past glory days. ;)

If I buy another Leica it will be an M7 to pair with the M3.

giganova
02-14-2017, 16:21
Can you quote some of their promises, which have you so disappointed?
How about "Ready for preorder in early 2016"? :rolleyes: Fast forward a year later, and there are only really bad renderings on their website.

I'll buy the Hermes special edition when it's out. :D

Leica has never done anything except pick off the shelf items, which already existed.
Haha, good one!

Emile de Leon
02-14-2017, 17:00
I'm a goin..to a ride..my Unicorn now..
He is all juiced up and ready to go..
Unlike Konost..
But we are just having a bit of fun here..foolin &..joking around..
What else to do..lol..
But..
I've seen a lot of vaporware in the photo industry from LF on down..
It would be nice to see this succeed..!
But I wouldn't count on it..
Hi ho Silver awaaaaaay.....

michaelwj
02-14-2017, 17:07
I'm a goin..to a ride..my Unicorn now..
He is all juiced up and ready to go..
Unlike Konost..
But we are just having a bit of fun here..foolin &..joking around..
What else to do..lol..
But..
I've seen a lot of vaporware in the photo industry from LF on down..
It would be nice to see this succeed..!
But I wouldn't count on it..
Hi ho Silver awaaaaaay.....

You have a Silver Unicorn! Even better!

I'm holding out for the Gold "Oscar Barnack" version :D

Emile de Leon
02-14-2017, 17:15
You have a Silver Unicorn! Even better!
The black version...w/gold uni-horn..
Is on...backorder..

Huss
02-14-2017, 18:11
The black version...w/gold uni-horn..
Is on...backorder..

Is that black paint or black chrome? I don't like patina showing on my unicorns.

froyd
02-14-2017, 18:16
I have a horse. Is that the same as the pre-worn Lenny Kravitz version of the unicorn?

johnf04
02-14-2017, 20:32
For a quadruped that covers all the bases..........you need a camel.

Huss
02-14-2017, 21:02
For a quadruped that covers all the bases..........you need a camel.

One lump or two?

nasmformyzombie
02-14-2017, 21:20
Here's something to chew on. Laugh at Konost if you will, but in two years, Konost will have a better chance of surviving than Nikon. And it's certainly possible neither one will be around.

Spanik
02-14-2017, 23:30
Here's something to chew on. Laugh at Konost if you will, but in two years, Konost will have a better chance of surviving than Nikon. And it's certainly possible neither one will be around.

I hope you mean Nikon Photo because if they stop making steppers we're going to miss a lot.

brennanphotoguy
02-15-2017, 04:53
Conversely, does anyone here have any reason to suspect they are lying? What would they gain from just trolling? I mean, they didn't do a Kickstarter and take people's money. They haven't come out and said it was just a project for a class. If it doesn't come out, who cares? It doesn't change my life. Does anyone here have any reason to suspect they are lying or is it just easy to be cynical on the internet?

They have promised over and over again to open preorders and/or have a demo model "at the end of the year." They have done nothing except post renderings that circulate the internet periodically. For all we know, it's that prosophos person coming up with random ideas in his basement.

jsrockit
02-15-2017, 06:01
They have promised over and over again to open preorders and/or have a demo model "at the end of the year." They have done nothing except post renderings that circulate the internet periodically. For all we know, it's that prosophos person coming up with random ideas in his basement.

And for all we know it is a company that is working on a serious project that has a lot more on its plate than giving updates to forum geeks (myself included). Over and over again... that's a bit of a exaggeration. I guess my point is that they haven't updated their site until so many people asked them to provide an update. There is nothing wrong with that.

jsrockit
02-15-2017, 06:04
Leica doesn't need my encouragement. Leica has already mastered separating people from their money using off the shelf digital components that other cameras makers incorporate and introduce sooner and at far less cost to the consumer---and not to mention in a manner that is likely far better executed.

So, really... you can't see any uniqueness in Leica's current product line?

fireblade
02-15-2017, 06:34
Uh...sure...yup..they are going to go head to head w/Leica..
I'm going to feed my unicorn now..lol..

I went out with a girl who use to ride unicorns.......i was in a constant drug induced state in those days.

dmr
02-15-2017, 06:41
I still say this is all vaporware.

Seriously, I really wish the guy luck! It actually sounds like something I might be interested in.

willie_901
02-15-2017, 06:50
People make it sound so simple to throw a well-engineered digital camera together from scratch. Well, it's nothing at all like going on line and and buying a bunch of PC components and assembling a cost effective computer system.

I do not think Leica's:
firmware, including the image processing engine, is off the shelf
color-filter array assembly is off the shelf
micro-lens assembly is off the shelf
integrated design optimized for M/LTM optics is off the shelf Leica did have a significant challenge others does not.

Most importantly Leica's customer service is not off the shelf. A new player would have to create an effective Customer Support/Service infrastructure from scratch.

Skiff
02-15-2017, 07:05
Honestly, to discuss the Konost at this time is just a waste of time.
Let's just see
- whether there really will be a camera
- when there will be a camera
- if there finally is a real camera, let's test them
- let's then see how the results are
- let's finally see whether the newcomer company can stand the brutal competition and the declining market and can survive (survival is needed for the customers).

jszokoli
02-15-2017, 07:13
I think many people are in for a surprise. With Nikon struggling, just look at the recent strings, I think that the reality that a pro level camera can be had for a reasonable price will be shattered.

As much as people think that Leica is gouging, I think that their $6500-8000 (SL, M, M10) prices actually reflect what it cost to produce these cameras. Currently Leica lenses also stand alone as far as price goes, but as the consumer market vanishes the price pressures will substantially increase the price of lenses from other makers.

It revolves around economies of scale. Remember that even the Cosina rangefinders were supported by the other models that were being made under subcontract for other makers.

So, hold on to your hats, I feel that Leica alone actually is on a sustainable path while other makers may not be. However I am hopeful that Nikon will survive by making substantial changes to the way they do business in their camera division.

As for Konost, I find it laughable that a MBA who likes cameras can really leverage that to compete in the market. Leica has been operating in this market for, what, 100 years and understands the reality of it. It is by all appearances a get rich quick scheme to bilk some venture capital guys out of a boat-load of money. Remember you don't need a product, just a pitch...


Joe

jsrockit
02-15-2017, 07:20
[FONT=Arial]As much as people think that Leica is gouging, I think that their $6500-8000 (SL, M, M10) prices actually reflect what it cost to produce these cameras.

Leica is a luxury brand and there's no doubt these are expensive to make... I wouldn't call them gouging, but it has to be marking its cameras up significantly just based on the fact that they don't mass produce (in comparison to other consumer brands).

Brooklynguy
02-15-2017, 07:27
People make it sound so simple to throw a well-engineered digital camera together from scratch...A new player would have to create an effective Customer Support/Service infrastructure from scratch.

Don't you just buy camera sensors from cheapsonysensors and exotic optical glass at cokebottles.com, put together with a bit of screws and duct tape? And make 10,000 identical pieces. What could be so difficult? :rolleyes:

Reminds me of the first gen Fuji X-100 and XPro1 -- euphemistically called "quirky" but in reality felt like beta firmware driving the cameras. And this from a multibillion dollar company with comparatively vast resources at its disposal and previous experience. I imagine the multiple challenges are exponentially greater for Konost.

There is healthy skepticism and some light-hearted fun in this thread, all of which keeps things grounded. And yes, I'd like Konost to amaze us all. Now, where did I park my unicorn?

giganova
02-15-2017, 07:31
To be fair, there are (few) examples of how entrepreneurs successfully entered the camera business.

Examples are Red One Digital Cinema Cameras or Phase One (who bought a share of Mamiya Digital Imaging). However, the efforts of Red One and Phase One were clearly better financed - they had a long-term strategy by visionaries, and a more professional approach and better communication with their future customer base to back them up and excite them. Red One is the amazing success story of Jim Jannard, the guy who previously founded Oakley. The way he pulled this off is nothing short of amazing and he truly revolutionized digital cinematography.

I honesty wish Komost all the best, but I can't see how they will succeed with all the false starts, nothing but promises, and a rather amateurish (or nave) approach.

user237428934
02-15-2017, 07:34
Reminds me of the first gen Fuji X-100 and XPro1 -- euphemistically called "quirky" but in reality felt like beta firmware driving the cameras. And this from a multibillion dollar company with comparatively vast resources at its disposal and previous experience. I imagine the multiple challenges are exponentially greater for Konost.



Fuji improved these cameras in tiny steps with new software from an almost defunct product to a somewhat usable product in a period of 12-18 months when I remember right. The amazing thing is, that marketing sold people a new approach of giving people valuable features after they bought the product...and people bought this idea.

jszokoli
02-15-2017, 07:42
Leica is a luxury brand and there's no doubt these are expensive to make... I wouldn't call them gouging, but it has to be marking its cameras up significantly just based on the fact that they don't mass produce (in comparison to other consumer brands).

John,

I think that Leica is a niche brand that has luxury buyers as part of their market. I have no interest in luxury products, but I am attracted to Leica products, both new and used. You do need the resources to afford Leica but simply because they cost more does not mean that you are purchasing simply for the status of ownership. There are brands that are simply based on luxury and I accept that, but I don't think it's that simple with Leica. Their core is not rebranded cheap products, but products that cost a bunch to create, make, and support.

Joe

Brooklynguy
02-15-2017, 07:46
Fuji improved these cameras in tiny steps with new software from an almost defunct product to a somewhat usable product in a period of 12-18 months when I remember right. The amazing thing is, that marketing sold people a new approach of giving people valuable features after they bought the product...and people bought this idea.

Right you are--and the point being that the challenges are much greater for a presumably resource strapped Konost.

nightfly
02-15-2017, 08:04
I hope they succeed, I'm just not holding my breath that it will actually happen.

It's a tough environment even for established players as the market for standalone cameras has collapsed and Nikon just cancelled their mirrorless range.

Would love to see a new full frame digital for the price of a used Leica or less. I've never purchased a new Leica, film or digital, but I'm very happy to pick up their products once the new car smell has worn off. If someone else can make a tool with similar functionality and zero bells and whistles I'm very supportive, I just don't have any faith in their timeframes.

Emile de Leon
02-15-2017, 08:19
As much as I hate to say it...being a businessman myself..and digging the entrepreneurial spirit..
This Konost has about .0001% chance of succeeding...
1. Cost
2. Demand
3. Repairs
4. Actual usability
5. Longevity
I dont see this working at all..
Just a few people with a dream..that hit the skids...when reality set in and the rubber hit the road..
Time to buy an M10..
My donkey..uhhh...my Unicorn..is hungry again..time to feed it...some sushi..

mpaniagua
02-15-2017, 08:33
Leica is a luxury brand and there's no doubt these are expensive to make... I wouldn't call them gouging, but it has to be marking its cameras up significantly just based on the fact that they don't mass produce (in comparison to other consumer brands).

I think that's the key issue here. We are talking about a niche market, so there are fewer customer. Design, marketing, logistics, customer support, etc. have to be paid by tens of thousands of products made and sold, instead of hundreds thousands (or millions) products made and sold by mass produced products.

In regards to Konost, is not like everything they need is to produce a camera to be a hit. I really wish them luck but they have it tough. Shrinking market, strong and stablized competitors, and don't forget people that buy Leicas do so because they like what Leica offers. Taking on a niche market isn't an small challenge. Remember VC Bessas. I don't think they were a huge success for Cosina (they are great cameras, got 2 of them) otherwise they would still be on the market.

Remember also that M10 will create an input of M9 on the used market. Really wish luck to Konost.

Regards.

mpaniagua
02-15-2017, 08:37
I hope they succeed, I'm just not holding my breath that it will actually happen.

It's a tough environment even for established players as the market for standalone cameras has collapsed and Nikon just cancelled their mirrorless range.

Would love to see a new full frame digital for the price of a used Leica or less. I've never purchased a new Leica, film or digital, but I'm very happy to pick up their products once the new car smell has worn off. If someone else can make a tool with similar functionality and zero bells and whistles I'm very supportive, I just don't have any faith in their timeframes.

I thought Leica's M were zero bells and whistles?

Regards.

nightfly
02-15-2017, 08:39
Yes. That's why I like them. I don't buy them new, but I do buy them.

I thought Leica's M were zero bells and whistles ?

Regards.

jsrockit
02-15-2017, 08:46
John,

I think that Leica is a niche brand that has luxury buyers as part of their market. I have no interest in luxury products, but I am attracted to Leica products, both new and used. You do need the resources to afford Leica but simply because they cost more does not mean that you are purchasing simply for the status of ownership. There are brands that are based on simply luxury and I accept that, but I don't think its that simple with Leica. Their core is not rebranded cheap product, but products that cost a bunch to create, make, and support.

Joe

Joe, I understand. I wasn't trying to imply they are only a status object. There are better items to buy if you are only into that. I've used them myself and I'm not into luxury either. They offer a unique product and sometimes uniqueness costs extra. However, I believe it has positioned itself as a luxury brand (smartly).

traveler_101
02-15-2017, 08:49
The negativity in the thread is astounding. Why not wish these guys the best? I for one would like to see a viable, less expensive alternative to the grossly overpriced offerings from the bling specialists, Leica.

Finally a sensible and encouraging post! Thank you.

mpaniagua
02-15-2017, 09:01
Finally a sensible and encouraging post! Thank you.

I dont think they are negative. They are making a point about the huge challenge they are facing and making educated guess about their probably future.

Regards

Marcelo

giganova
02-15-2017, 10:04
Just a few people with a dream..
Kids with a dream, actually. Did you see the pictures of them on their web site?

user237428934
02-15-2017, 10:13
Kids with a dream, actually. Did you see the pictures of them on their web site?

A kid with a dream who goes by the name of Mark Zuckerberg is on his way to rule the world. Maybe we should leave age out of this. :cool:

dmr
02-15-2017, 10:26
Just a few people with a dream..

But if you never have dreams they can never come true! :)

jsrockit
02-15-2017, 10:43
A kid with a dream who goes by the name of Mark Zuckerberg is on his way to rule the world.

I'm not so sure that story started with a dream... ;)

user237428934
02-15-2017, 10:49
I'm not so sure that story started with a dream... ;)

I really wanted to repeat the first words of the post I responded to. :rolleyes:

jsrockit
02-15-2017, 11:23
I really wanted to repeat the first words of the post I responded to. :rolleyes:

Got ya... :o

Corran
02-15-2017, 11:37
It's a pun!


Okay, I guess. I was assuming he was calling it "Ferrania" because of the aforementioned Kickstarter. Some on this forum insist on saying Ferrania is never going to manufacture film because it's been delayed a while (despite them literally having a new [old] film about to go on sale, with the slide film from the KS coming soon now). Similarly, many are saying this Konost will not be manufactured due to [xyz]. That's what I thought the comparison was and wanted clarification, but perhaps I was wrong.

Spanik
02-15-2017, 12:16
Examples are Red One Digital Cinema Cameras or Phase One (who bought a share of Mamiya Digital Imaging).

Phase One entered into partnership with Mamiya, then gradually took over the whole lot. As now Mamiya is finished as a camera producer, all is transferred to Phase One. But you are right, they succeed because they have a vision AND deliver.

uhoh7
02-16-2017, 00:40
How about "Ready for preorder in early 2016"? :rolleyes: Fast forward a year later, and there are only really bad renderings on their website.

I'll buy the Hermes special edition when it's out. :D


Haha, good one!

You think Leica has ever invented anything to do with their sensors? I would love to hear what it is, seriously.

"We had originally planned to begin pre-order end of 2016 with the first deliveries around Q2 of 2017. However, in order to deliver the highest-performing image quality at a price range we felt comfortable with, we decided to switch to a custom sensor in all our cameras. This will push production versions of the Konost rangefinders to Q3-Q4 of 2017. We’re still working on releasing limited edition beta versions of the rangefinder in the first half of 2017."

I don't remember "ready for pre-order" as a promise but maybe I missed that.

They had oringally planned delivery in Q2 of 2017, and now it's back to Q3-4. Yeah that kind of delay is unheard of. I can see why you are so bitter.

I will be surprised and delighted if they come to production. :) Even more so as it would show so many sarcastic, mean-spirted comments for what they are :)

There are unicorns, and there is tripe. ;)

happy
03-11-2017, 13:22
They should not be sharing such poor quality renders of their product. As much as I would like them to succeed... everything about this seems like they are in over their heads.

The design/renders look like a 2nd year industrial design student made them. If they are further along, they should absolutely be updating the images because they instill no confidence.

CameraQuest
03-11-2017, 13:54
Has anyone here ever received a reply email from Konost?

Ko.Fe.
03-11-2017, 13:56
It's a pun!

Ferrania is a toponym, like Greece, the country of the Greek speaking, or The Netherlands, the country of the Dutch speaking.
What Ko.Fe. is saying, is: It's all Greek to me, or It's all double Dutch to me.

I don't know what toponym is. :o
Ferrania as the current "development" takes hundred of pages on APUG, years of no real product and "finally" some terribly scratched not color, but bw film which looks suspicions to some film manufacturers as known film.
In comparison, where is single guy in Moscow who was able to make film in less time and it is available for sale and people are using it in Russia and Ukraine.

So, Konost is Ferrania to me.

Rob-F
03-11-2017, 15:30
Well, I dunno . . . seems to me if someone wants a budget digital camera, they can get a really good Nikon off of eBay.

Ko.Fe.
03-12-2017, 08:54
"Arrested Development" is the "place" for Ferrania and Konost :)
One making short movies about film which not exists and writing about hard job at hundreds of APUG pages thread.
Another place is showing nothing but computer rendered images and talking about switching to better sensor.
It is all described in free on-line tutorials for new product developing, like IoT. The mistake is to trying to make it perfect, instead of releasing prototype and testing with market. But I'm not sure if both "places" are really into the "making" at all.

nikonhswebmaster
03-12-2017, 09:04
You can buy Snapchat on monday for $5 and make a fortune next week.

brennanphotoguy
03-12-2017, 12:31
"Arrested Development" is the "place" for Ferrania and Konost :)
One making short movies about film which not exists and writing about hard job at hundreds of APUG pages thread.
Another place is showing nothing but computer rendered images and talking about switching to better sensor.
It is all described in free on-line tutorials for new product developing, like IoT. The mistake is to trying to make it perfect, instead of releasing prototype and testing with market. But I'm not sure if both "places" are really into the "making" at all.

Which is what Ferrania did with this b/w emulsion. They are testing the market and you criticized them in your previous post. They have had constant updates with results and keep everyone up to date. Konost literally has nothing.

Edit: Their shop is opening in 21 hours. http://www.filmferrania.it/shop/

uhoh7
03-12-2017, 12:55
Konost literally has nothing.


How would you know? Because of a website and how they respond to email?

If you are a small operation in development, those may not be high priorities. If a camera appears, there will be plenty of attention.

If not, big surprise. How many new businesses fail? 80%? Higher?

I would rather they spend their time making it happen than cajoling the suspicious.

jaapv
03-12-2017, 16:49
You think Leica has ever invented anything to do with their sensors? I would love to hear what it is, seriously.

"We had originally planned to begin pre-order end of 2016 with the first deliveries around Q2 of 2017. However, in order to deliver the highest-performing image quality at a price range we felt comfortable with, we decided to switch to a custom sensor in all our cameras. This will push production versions of the Konost rangefinders to Q3-Q4 of 2017. We’re still working on releasing limited edition beta versions of the rangefinder in the first half of 2017."

I don't remember "ready for pre-order" as a promise but maybe I missed that.

They had oringally planned delivery in Q2 of 2017, and now it's back to Q3-4. Yeah that kind of delay is unheard of. I can see why you are so bitter.

I will be surprised and delighted if they come to production. :) Even more so as it would show so many sarcastic, mean-spirted comments for what they are :)

There are unicorns, and there is tripe. ;)Shared patent with Kodak for shifted microlenses on M8/M9, special shape microlenses patents for M240 and SL. Corrosion-free coating for the M9 sensor in cooperation with Schott. (admitted, the last one was born out of necessity). The M240, SL, Q and M10 sensors are co-designs by Leica and various sensor design firms. The M8 and M9 sensors were adapted off-the-shelf Kodak sensors.

Now they have scuppered Konost out of the gate by patenting a two-mini camera rangefinder system

jaapv
03-12-2017, 17:03
The negativity in the thread is astounding. Why not wish these guys the best? I for one would like to see a viable, less expensive alternative to the grossly overpriced offerings from the bling specialists, Leica.
I've seen these posts since 2006...:rolleyes: Usually relating to Zeiss Ikon. They only died down after Zeiss admitted that, even with their expertise at rangefinder camera building and Sony's mighty digital R&D behind them, they would not develop an M competitor because they could not compete with Leica on price.
So: Yes, Leica's are horribly expensive, but they are not overpriced.

jaapv
03-12-2017, 17:10
Here's something to chew on. Laugh at Konost if you will, but in two years, Konost will have a better chance of surviving than Nikon. And it's certainly possible neither one will be around.Hmmm..Nikon might well survive just about anything, given that it is owned by the vast industrial conglomerate Mitsubishi...

Huss
03-12-2017, 17:32
Hmmm..Nikon might well survive just about anything, given that it is owned by the vast industrial conglomerate Mitsubishi...

Yes. And no...

http://www.dslrbodies.com/nikon/about-nikon/nikon-faq/is-nikon-a-subsidiary-of.html

"But the basic answer is, no, Nikon is an independent company with its shares publicly traded on the Nikkei."

Publicly traded stock means it is not owned by one entity.

Huss
03-12-2017, 17:35
You can buy Snapchat on monday for $5 and make a fortune next week.

It closed at $22.

jaapv
03-12-2017, 17:59
Yes. And no...

http://www.dslrbodies.com/nikon/about-nikon/nikon-faq/is-nikon-a-subsidiary-of.html

"But the basic answer is, no, Nikon is an independent company with its shares publicly traded on the Nikkei."

Publicly traded stock means it is not owned by one entity.Yes and no again. As it is in the Mitsubishi Keiretsu, with ties going back a hundred years there are connections that cannot be easily unraveled. For instance the Tokyo-Mitsubishi bank, a minor shareholder, is a major financier...

At any rate, it promises more stability than a struggling startup.

nikonhswebmaster
03-13-2017, 14:02
It closed at $22.

$21 Monday. Did you at least get your Konost preorder in?

Roger Hicks
03-13-2017, 14:24
Yes and no again. As it is in the Mitsubishi Keiretsu, with ties going back a hundred years there are connections that cannot be easily unraveled. For instance the Tokyo-Mitsubishi bank, a minor shareholder, is a major financier...

At any rate, it promises more stability than a struggling startup.
Dear Jaap,

You should know by now that merely knowing what you are talking about is no substitute.

Would I back Konost, knowing what I know about camera design and the camera market? No. But if people want to gamble with their own money, well, it's probably better to gamble on the Konost than on the horses. I'd find it more enjoyable, anyway.

Cheers,

R.

steveyork
03-13-2017, 14:39
I've seen these posts since 2006...:rolleyes: Usually relating to Zeiss Ikon. They only died down after Zeiss admitted that, even with their expertise at rangefinder camera building and Sony's mighty digital R&D behind them, they would not develop an M competitor because they could not compete with Leica on price.
So: Yes, Leica's are horribly expensive, but they are not overpriced.

I'm not sure that is accurate. In the film area Zeiss proved they could produce a camera that was in some respects better then a Leica M, for substantially less money, but they still couldn't compete. It all has to do with market, and who has the market share, and who can get it.

jaapv
03-13-2017, 17:08
Dear Jaap,

You should know by now that merely knowing what you are talking about is no substitute.

Would I back Konost, knowing what I know about camera design and the camera market? No. But if people want to gamble with their own money, well, it's probably better to gamble on the Konost than on the horses. I'd find it more enjoyable, anyway.

Cheers,

R.Dear Roger, I quite agree. I would like to see a Konost niche-within-a-niche camera. The chance of it becoming reality is about the same as me winning the lottery unfortunately.

jaapv
03-13-2017, 17:10
I'm not sure that is accurate. In the film area Zeiss proved they could produce a camera that was in some respects better then a Leica M, for substantially less money, but they still couldn't compete. It all has to do with market, and who has the market share, and who can get it.Well, it is what Zeiss said at any rate.

fireblade
03-13-2017, 17:29
Did someone mention tripe? ....cleaned properly and cooked slowly in Italian sauce, delicious :)

Roger Hicks
03-14-2017, 00:31
Well, it is what Zeiss said at any rate.
Dear Jaap,

Yeah, but what do they know, compared with internet experts?

Cheers,

R.

Roger Hicks
03-14-2017, 00:36
I'm not sure that is accurate. In the film area Zeiss proved they could produce a camera that was in some respects better then a Leica M, for substantially less money, but they still couldn't compete. It all has to do with market, and who has the market share, and who can get it.
Dear Steve,

And in some respects worse. But as you imply, making a successful digital version of the same thing is a rather different undertaking. Even if they could make it cheaper, which is deeply unlikely (think of the sensor development costs, and getting around Leica/Kodak/etc. patents), it would need enormous technical investment in order to have even a chance of taking a small part of a small market.

Cheers,

R.

stephen.w
03-14-2017, 01:09
The negativity in the thread is astounding. Why not wish these guys the best? I for one would like to see a viable, less expensive alternative to the grossly overpriced offerings from the bling specialists, Leica.

Competition is good, and I wish them the best, but: the digital Ms are similarly priced to the top-of-the-line Nikons and Canons. I don't understand this strange, almost ideological, antipathy towards the digital Leicas one often comes across on this of all forums.

Keith
03-14-2017, 01:18
Competition is good, and I wish them the best, but: the digital Ms are similarly priced to the top-of-the-line Nikons and Canons. I don't understand this strange, almost ideological, antipathy towards the digital Leicas one often comes across on this of all forums.


I'm not defending anyone here but I don't think the top of the line Nikon and Canon DSLRs are a good comparison to a digital M. The Nikon DF would be a better comparison for me and I recently saw a brand new DF in a store for just under $2500. My M240 cost me three times that amount new ... I'm not begrudging that cost though because you pays your money and you makes your choice as they say.

And yes ... this place has Leica worship and Leica scorn available in equal amounts at times! :D

Roger Hicks
03-14-2017, 02:19
Competition is good, and I wish them the best, but: the digital Ms are similarly priced to the top-of-the-line Nikons and Canons. I don't understand this strange, almost ideological, antipathy towards the digital Leicas one often comes across on this of all forums.
Dear Stephen,

Same here. But many people seem to see a digi-M as comparable with a mid-range SLR with mass appeal, and think it should be priced accordingly. Odd, really.

Cheers,

R.

Roger Hicks
03-14-2017, 02:21
. . . And yes ... this place has Leica worship and Leica scorn available in equal amounts at times! :D
Dear Keith,

"Worship" and "scorn"? It's just a bloody camera. Either it does what you want, and you can find the money, or it doesn't, and/or you can't find the money.

Cheers,

R.

Gregm61
03-14-2017, 03:47
This is like telling someone to hold off getting a job, they might catch a leprechaun tomorrow, LOL

jaapv
03-14-2017, 08:13
I'm not defending anyone here but I don't think the top of the line Nikon and Canon DSLRs are a good comparison to a digital M. The Nikon DF would be a better comparison for me and I recently saw a brand new DF in a store for just under $2500. My M240 cost me three times that amount new ... I'm not begrudging that cost though because you pays your money and you makes your choice as they say.

And yes ... this place has Leica worship and Leica scorn available in equal amounts at times! :DA 16 MP cropped sensor consumer grade camera? You must be joking... The only Leica camera that I can come up with that is remorely similar is the T.

happy
03-14-2017, 08:16
A 16 MP cropped sensor consumer grade camera? You must be joking...

Nikon df? It's a full frame and has as many Pro features as any Leica.

Roger Hicks
03-14-2017, 08:20
Nikon df? It's a full frame and has more 'pro' features than any Leica.
Really? Which ones? That actual professionals use, that is?

I use an M9 and a Df . They're both great cameras. But to suggest that the "feature"-laden Df is "more professional" suggests that you are using a rather personal definition of "professional".

Cheers,

R.

mpaniagua
03-14-2017, 08:32
I think one should compare one company top of the line product vs another company top of the line product. Whats Nikon-Canon top of the line camera? compare that to Leica top of the line camera. Price, thats the only thing you can compare, because we are talking orages vs apples otherwise. We cant really compare the feature of the 5d vs M10. Probably we could compare the sensors capacity and thats about it.

Really makes me remembers the time I used to argue PC vs Mac until I realized its useless. Like Roger said, either you like that it does and buy it, or doesnt and dont buy it.

Regards.

Marcelo

happy
03-14-2017, 09:08
Really? Which ones? That actual professionals use, that is?

I use an M9 and a Df . They're both great cameras. But to suggest that the "feature"-laden Df is "more professional" suggests that you are using a rather personal definition of "professional".

Cheers,

R.

'Pro' features, and I realize I should put Pro in quotes because Often that term is a marketing gimmick. However, I shoot nikon and Leica myself as well professionally and I can tell you that one product is more geared towards a larger segment of today's professionals. Higher frame rate, larger buffer, advanced autofocus and metering, weather sealing, faster and better service for professionals.

You can't honestly deny that. Sure, Leica works fine if that's what you prefer.

steveyork
03-15-2017, 06:13
Whether people want to admit it or not, the high price of a Leica is also the admission into a small but active social club (largely internet now) of folks who use the cameras and lenses. Get one and you're a member; you can communicate with others on the internet about it, post your pictures and share your angst over whether you should get black or silver, or whether you should purchase a Noctilux or APO Summicron, etc. And this is why a competing rangefinder, from a different company, will not succeed. It's not a Leica.

Scapevision
03-15-2017, 06:26
So, my concerns lie with future product warranty and service. It being a small mom and pop company, even if it's a little bigger, sounds like once you buy you're on your own if anything goes wrong with this camera. Any information on this?

jsrockit
03-15-2017, 06:48
And this is why a competing rangefinder, from a different company, will not succeed. It's not a Leica.

Not everybody uses a Leica for superficial reasons. People use other film rangefinders.

Roger Hicks
03-15-2017, 07:39
'Pro' features, and I realize I should put Pro in quotes because Often that term is a marketing gimmick. However, I shoot nikon and Leica myself as well professionally and I can tell you that one product is more geared towards a larger segment of today's professionals. Higher frame rate, larger buffer, advanced autofocus and metering, weather sealing, faster and better service for professionals.

You can't honestly deny that. Sure, Leica works fine if that's what you prefer.
"Larger segment": sure. But that doesn't make it more "professional".

Also, RF and SLR cameras are so different that it's a bit like comparing motorcycles and motor-cars.

Cheers,

R.

Roger Hicks
03-15-2017, 07:42
Whether people want to admit it or not, the high price of a Leica is also the admission into a small but active social club (largely internet now) of folks who use the cameras and lenses. Get one and you're a member; you can communicate with others on the internet about it, post your pictures and share your angst over whether you should get black or silver, or whether you should purchase a Noctilux or APO Summicron, etc. And this is why a competing rangefinder, from a different company, will not succeed. It's not a Leica.
Dear Steve,

Really? Your "small but active social club" is, in my experience as a Leica user since 1969, a pretty tiny percentage of Leica users. There are after all similar "small but active social clubs" of Nikon users, Zeiss users, film users, LF users...

Cheers,

R.

stompyq
03-15-2017, 07:47
I personally hate this notion.

Whether people want to admit it or not, the high price of a Leica is also the admission into a small but active social club (largely internet now) of folks who use the cameras and lenses. Get one and you're a member; you can communicate with others on the internet about it, post your pictures and share your angst over whether you should get black or silver, or whether you should purchase a Noctilux or APO Summicron, etc. And this is why a competing rangefinder, from a different company, will not succeed. It's not a Leica.