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bayernfan
11-24-2016, 09:51
I know this is a bit early, however, I am quite eager to see the price impact of a totally redesigned M body on the previous generation digital M bodies. Fingers crossed it will drive the prices down on the M8 and M9 significantly more than the M240 did. If the M9 gets pushed down to current M8 prices, I might finally pull the trigger. :cool:

Might be something to think about for those putting holiday cash towards the purchase of an M8/9/240.

Chubberino
11-24-2016, 10:05
Not gonna happen with the M8. The M8 has seen its bottom, too many people would rather keep it than sell it as evidenced by the second-hand market and the drought of M8's. I'd expect the M9 may see a slight drop but that has a devoted CCD full frame following as well.

Ko.Fe.
11-24-2016, 10:23
IMO. Even if M10 is true and coming (which I haven't seen as official, yet) it is most likely going to cost higher comparing to already pricey M240. And M240 was totally new sensor, LV, Video and else significant for common digital camera users while living M8/9 CCD and other outdates in technological dust. M10 is just going to be more proportional and this is most likely it. Same technology in new look, but more money.
In this case the M8/M9 aren't going to be adjusted by the market as significantly as you wish.
But time and age is the factor for all of them. If you can't buy Leica you want now, take your time!

BLKRCAT
11-24-2016, 10:27
Selling my M8 now. Prices haven't changed much since I bought it about a year ago. I cant see them going any lower.

Also M9 prices seem to have stabilized, if not gone up. Trying to cover the upgrade means spending more than double the average price of an M8 these days.

Also asked about an M8.2 and the buyer wanted about $1000 over what Im selling my M8 for. Even had a classified response complaining over my "greed" for pricing alongside what an M8 would cost to buy from the US and have imported. Being its the only M8 FS in Toronto ATM I can price as I see fit.

Leica prices are a little all more all over the place these days than they normally are.

Chubberino
11-24-2016, 10:33
Selling my M8 now. Prices haven't changed much since I bought it about a year ago. I cant see them going any lower.

Also M9 prices seem to have stabilized, if not gone up. Trying to cover the upgrade means spending more than double the average price of an M8 these days.

Also asked about an M8.2 and the buyer wanted about $1000 over what Im selling my M8 for. Even had a classified response complaining over my "greed" for pricing alongside what an M8 would cost to buy from the US and have imported. Being its the only M8 FS in Toronto ATM I can price as I see fit.

Leica prices are a little all more all over the place these days than they normally are.

Yeah, I bought an M8 in the UK a few months ago but that was after 4 months of the market having not many options and prices being a bit beyond my range. But those ones were still selling. Got a good deal on a used one for 760. Took awhile, but that one was discounted because it was a reskinned with brown leather and had a high shutter count, ~20,000. I still occasionally look and the prices are still very high.

Huss
11-24-2016, 10:45
I think the M8 prices are stable, and the M9/M-E have actually gone up after people became aware of the new sensor. The M9 CCD look is very desirable and that is reflected in their now stable prices. It's the M240 that's taking the hit, and those prices will be deflated by the next M, not the M9 or M8.

BLKRCAT
11-24-2016, 10:48
It's the M240 that's taking the hit, and those prices will be deflated by the next M, not the M9 or M8.

Agreed.

10 characters

Ko.Fe.
11-24-2016, 10:59
...Even had a classified response complaining over my "greed" for pricing alongside what an M8 would cost to buy from the US and have imported. Being its the only M8 FS in Toronto ATM I can price as I see fit.


Before receiving M-E as BD gift in this September I was hoping to get M8 locally at the fair price. Yours is in this category for sure. Ignore lowballers!
It might take a while to sell it here. I often sell it on ebay first and local offers are suddenly coming after, closer to expiry date on Kijiji.

user237428934
11-24-2016, 11:01
I think the M8 prices are stable, and the M9/M-E have actually gone up after people became aware of the new sensor. The M9 CCD look is very desirable and that is reflected in their now stable prices. It's the M240 that's taking the hit, and those prices will be deflated by the next M, not the M9 or M8.

Yes...........

fenixv8
11-29-2016, 11:25
I think it will affect the prices of the M240 but not the M8 or M9. M8 and M9 with sensor change are probably going to be pretty stable in pricing because you either want a CCD or dont. The M10 will just be a better version of the M240 so that will lower the price of the m240. I plan on selling my M240 for the M10. But I will keep my M8. The only thing I would replace my M8 with is a M9 with upgraded sensor.

jsrockit
11-29-2016, 11:37
I would think we will see the M8/M9 go down significantly in the next few years. The M240 will go down and these both will be effected by this. Most people are not buying a M8/M9 because it is CCD. Many would consider CCD to be a con (i.e. only a few consider it a pro or we'd have a lot more high end CCD cameras made). I think these bodies continue to have great used prices because the M240 is still $4000 used. That makes the M8/M9 the cheapest way to get a digital Leica.

jaapv
11-30-2016, 09:14
As long as we don't know what the hypothetical M10 is going to cost and what the concept/market positioning of the camera may be, speculations like these are surely futile.

Huss
11-30-2016, 10:04
One thing I am sure of is that the pricing will not follow the financial model that Sony/Fuji and Olympus have recently adopted, where the new model costs about 40% more than the one it is replacing.

Chubberino
11-30-2016, 10:06
As long as we don't know what the hypothetical M10 is going to cost and what the concept/market positioning of the camera may be, speculations like these are surely futile.

Nope, this is a forum for discussion. Futility in discussion doesn't fit this medium.

ellisson
11-30-2016, 10:55
As of now, there is no date for appearance of the new M. Even when announced, availability to most buyers will probably lag for many months. If a new M is announced early in 2017 and the price and upgrades are attractive, I would not expect prices to change on the earlier M cameras, including the M240, until late 2017 at the earliest.

SaveKodak
11-30-2016, 11:24
M8s are around $1500-1800 for a user, M9s $2500ish, M240s $3500.

There is a pattern here. Prices are stable for the moment because there hasn't been any serious offering from Leica recently that would un-seat the M240 for people buying new. I bought my M from a friend who didn't feel like he was being robbed at $2900.00 Once M240s are regularly $3000ish dollars, I would not expect a world of CCD die-hards to keep M9s so near their current price, and in turn, the M8. I would imagine once the M10 has been regularly available for a year or so that the M8 will see the $1300+/- price range. We're talking about a digital Leica that isn't full frame, with a screen that can't be repaired. IMO they're too expensive right now.

Emile de Leon
11-30-2016, 11:38
Of course Leica prices will drop..eventually that is..esp if the new M is priced right and is a significant upgrade to the 240..which I'm sure L has already thought about..hence the delay..
I would think the 240 will take a good hit on this..and as the M8 gets older..and older...well..

brennanphotoguy
12-01-2016, 11:03
You're crazy if you think prices won't be affected. Like SaveKodak said, within a year of the M10 being released everything will drop by $500 or so. People said the 5Dc would never drop below $1000 and now they're sold in retail stores for $450. And that's a better camera than an M8.

analoged
12-01-2016, 12:45
I was really considering an M8 as my first digital RF maybe a year ago. Prices were good, sometimes cheaper than the R-D1. It does seem that the M8 has gained back some of its price within the last year.

Chubberino
12-01-2016, 12:59
Yup, the M8 has a very strong resale value right now and the market is limited so the price won't go down. Simple supply and demand.

brennanphotoguy
12-01-2016, 13:12
The supply won't be limited when M9 users start dumping their M9 for affordable M240s. It's a downward trickle, not upwards.

Chubberino
12-01-2016, 13:19
Nah, the prices will stay stable and supply won't expand considerably.

brennanphotoguy
12-01-2016, 13:26
My experience of working in a photo retail environment tells me otherwise.

analoged
12-01-2016, 13:37
I'd be so happy with an up to date R-D1 styled digital RF priced around $1600-1800, too much to ask?

jsrockit
12-01-2016, 13:41
I'd be so happy with an up to date R-D1 styled digital RF priced around $1600-1800, too much to ask?

Yes, most likely.

willie_901
12-02-2016, 08:25
The supply won't be limited when M9 users start dumping their M9 for affordable M240s. It's a downward trickle, not upwards.

What about the sensor replacement issue? We have no idea what fraction of the M9s out there have the second generation sensor. The originals will need replacement sooner or later and are less desirable. Knowledgeable buyers of units with the original sensor will factor future inconvenience into how much they are willing to pay.

I don't think M9 cameras will be dumped in significant numbers until the sensor replacement cycle is further along.

brennanphotoguy
12-02-2016, 08:31
Lol, the M8 is a relic and full of more problems than a sensor that Leica is fixing for free and can provide serials of M9s that have been serviced.

jaapv
12-03-2016, 00:05
What about the sensor replacement issue? We have no idea what fraction of the M9s out there have the second generation sensor. The originals will need replacement sooner or later and are less desirable. Knowledgeable buyers of units with the original sensor will factor future inconvenience into how much they are willing to pay.

I don't think M9 cameras will be dumped in significant numbers until the sensor replacement cycle is further along.
I am not at liberty to disclose numbers, but the percentage of cameras that are affected is far smaller than is usually supposed in the Forums. The supposition that in the end all M9 sensors will need to be replaced is incorrect.

Lss
12-03-2016, 05:00
Lol, the M8 is a relic and full of more problems
It's a problem-free camera in my experience.

brennanphotoguy
12-04-2016, 06:58
I guess that having to use IR filters and a screen you can't replace aren't problems.

Lss
12-04-2016, 08:05
I guess that having to use IR filters and a screen you can't replace aren't problems.
Good guess, they are not problems.

The screen, if it dies completely, may become a problem. A working screen is not a problem.

Chubberino
12-04-2016, 08:12
IR filters, lol.

jaapv
12-04-2016, 16:23
I guess that having to use IR filters and a screen you can't replace aren't problems.Well, you have a choice: use a camera with an effective IR filter in front of the sensor or one that has one in front of the lens. Which of the two gives the best image quality and the most versatility? One guess... Disclosure: I use IR filters on all my digital cameras since 2001 for best colours. It is not as if only Leica has inadequate IR filtering...
As for LCD screens: AFAIK the M8 screen is still replaceable. It is the one on the M8.2 that is the problem. Simple solution: don't hit it so hard that it breaks...;)

k__43
12-05-2016, 01:28
If you wait for the price to meet your set budget you miss out on a digital Leica while waiting.

Vobluda
12-05-2016, 01:58
My opinion and experience is different. I have seen or handled more M9 type of cameras with sensor issue then without.
I dare to say that sooner or later all M9 type of camera will require sensor replacement.
Perhaps a good place to list major Leica digital failures:

M8
IR filters
no replace rear screens just few years after start of production

M9/M9-P/Monochrom Mk I/ME
corroding sensor that took Leica well over year to officially acknowledge..

M240
strap lug falling out on the first batch of cameras

Leica M-D
new out of the box cameras with non working rear ISO dial

And those are only major ones..

I am not at liberty to disclose numbers, but the percentage of cameras that are affected is far smaller than is usually supposed in the Forums. The supposition that in the end all M9 sensors will need to be replaced is incorrect.

jsrockit
12-05-2016, 06:11
As for LCD screens: AFAIK the M8 screen is still replaceable. It is the one on the M8.2 that is the problem. Simple solution: don't hit it so hard that it breaks...;)

It has nothing to do with that... it's the "coffee stain" issue and it is no longer being replaced by Leica.

Vobluda
12-05-2016, 06:24
From my and my friends experience coffee stain issue occurs when camera is not used regularly and is gone once when you start using the camera more often.
Even when it is there it has no impact on usage of the screen.

It has nothing to do with that... it's the "coffee stain" issue and it is no longer being replaced by Leica.

jsrockit
12-05-2016, 07:00
From my and my friends experience coffee stain issue occurs when camera is not used regularly and is gone once when you start using the camera more often.
Even when it is there it has no impact on usage of the screen.

Sorry, but you are wrong... it is permanent and eventually fails completely and Leica will not repair it. Whatever you and your friends had was not this issue.

jaapv
12-05-2016, 09:44
Sorry JS, this is incorrect. There are many instances of the coffee stain healing itself and I have not seen any example of an LCD dying of it. I would be interested to learn of any cases.
The coffee stain is only found on later examples of the M8, as Leica had switched suppliers by then. AFAIK there are still spares for the earlier LCD available.
I find the idea about frequency of use an interesting one. Even if it is new to me, it is not impossible.

jsrockit
12-05-2016, 09:48
Ok, I'll concede...

jaapv
12-05-2016, 09:55
Not a contest, just a matter of getting things right :) ;)

jsrockit
12-05-2016, 09:58
Not a contest, just a matter of getting things right :) ;)

Understood. I think you know Leica better than I do, so I will just stop giving misinformation.

Lss
12-05-2016, 10:03
AFAIK there are still spares for the earlier LCD available.
I gather someone has had theirs recently fixed then?

CameraQuest
12-05-2016, 11:17
I know this is a bit early, however, I am quite eager to see the price impact of a totally redesigned M body on the previous generation digital M bodies. Fingers crossed it will drive the prices down on the M8 and M9 significantly more than the M240 did. If the M9 gets pushed down to current M8 prices, I might finally pull the trigger. :cool:

Might be something to think about for those putting holiday cash towards the purchase of an M8/9/240.

A lot will depend upon the M10.

If the M10 is a major improvement over the M240, expect lots of trade ins and significantly lower prices on all older digital M bodies.

If the M10 is turns out to be a not so big improvement, less trade ins and less impact on previous digital M resale value.

I am guessing a big improvement - otherwise, why bother?

Stephen

DougFord
12-05-2016, 13:18
Presumably, the M10 will have a greater percentage of Panasonic content/involvement then of any M camera to date. Along with its refined body design, the M10 could be a substantial upgrade from the digital M's of the not so distant past.

user237428934
12-05-2016, 14:37
Presumably, the M10 will have a greater percentage of Panasonic content/involvement then of any M camera to date. Along with its refined body design, the M10 could be a substantial upgrade from the digital M's of the not so distant past.

Isn't the Panasonic involvement a rumour of the post-factual times we live in? Has anyone ever seen a confirmation of this "fact"?

jaapv
12-05-2016, 16:09
Nobody knows -yet- but the Q and the SL have a high Panasonic content.

fti
01-04-2017, 06:07
I know this is a bit early, however, I am quite eager to see the price impact of a totally redesigned M body on the previous generation digital M bodies. Fingers crossed it will drive the prices down on the M8 and M9 significantly more than the M240 did. If the M9 gets pushed down to current M8 prices, I might finally pull the trigger. :cool:

Might be something to think about for those putting holiday cash towards the purchase of an M8/9/240.

Lol... I asked the same question 4.5 years ago when we thought an M10 would come. It ended up being the ME. I bought a second hand M9 which was about 7 months old for 3500EUR. I still have the M9 which I use 90% of the time even if I can get my hands on the latest dslrs.

The only regret I have is that I waited too long to buy the M9. Sometimes it's just better to bite the bullet and spend some more if it has you go out and shoot photos rather than spending time and effort wondering about if's and but's.

Even if the prices for the M9 would drop, my personal feeling is that it would be a slow transition.... unless the M10 comes with a CCD!

Dante_Stella
01-04-2017, 07:12
Presumably, the M10 will have a greater percentage of Panasonic content/involvement then of any M camera to date. Along with its refined body design, the M10 could be a substantial upgrade from the digital M's of the not so distant past.

I haven't ever seen anything to support either of these statements.

1. There has been no involvement with Panasonic in the past on Ms, and involving Panasonic would not have any effect, least of all lowering the price, since this is still a tiny volume item.

2. Don't count on this being a "substantial" improvement unless your sine qua non was a thin body or a faster EVF. We are in an incremental phase in digital camera development.

Dante

nanthor
01-04-2017, 07:40
hmm, well the industry might be in an incremental development stage . There are many things that Leica could implement on an M10 such as EVF, switchable auto focus for manual lenses, just to name a couple. Bob

jaapv
01-04-2017, 07:58
Umm.. Don't hold your breath...

mjc
01-04-2017, 08:33
Do we know yet the expected announcement date? And, typically, do shipments start relatively soon thereafter?

ian_watts
01-04-2017, 08:55
18th January.

jaapv
01-04-2017, 13:17
18th January.
Yes, but nobody knows exactly what will be announced.

DougFord
01-04-2017, 14:45
I haven't ever seen anything to support either of these statements.

1. There has been no involvement with Panasonic in the past on Ms, and involving Panasonic would not have any effect, least of all lowering the price, since this is still a tiny volume item.

2. Don't count on this being a "substantial" improvement unless your sine qua non was a thin body or a faster EVF. We are in an incremental phase in digital camera development.

Dante


My opinion is as follows with regards to the next M camera.
The M10 will be the first 'Panasonic M' model introduced to date.
I'm also assuming that Panasonic 'had a hand in' designing the internal electronics lay out which in turn allowed for a slightly narrower body design.
As different as the Q and SL are to all other digital Leica cameras ever produced, the Panasonic M will follow suit and its pedigree will not be found among any digital M camera produced thus far. (RF contraption not withstanding)
I would define these as 'substantial' differences.

jaapv
01-04-2017, 15:48
The rumoured absence of video argues against significant Panasonic involvement; Video-stills integration is a major part of Panasonic's technological strategy.

willie_901
01-05-2017, 06:29
A thinner body made possible by a longer mount flange will be appreciated by some of Leica's M customer base.

Now there's something for everyone... no LCD screen or monochrome or a body thickness more loyal to the film Ms.

I will speculate an incremental improvement in the data stream technologies (improved read noise and, or increased full-well capacity). A more powerful in-camera CPU would significantly improve EVF performance.

fenixv8
01-23-2017, 13:17
I was wrong when I said it wouldnt affect the M8 and M9. Leica slashing the price of a new M240 is going to have a trickle down effect on the other used digital M.

uhoh7
01-23-2017, 13:56
So far, and I have looked, there is no impact.

M9 is up from its low, and steady from November, M240 also.

I would expect to see some pressure on the M240s, so I'd bet you could find a nice one for about 3k in June or maybe even sooner. For now it's well above that.

M9 I don't know. It has been as low as 2200 but now 2700 is more the mean. You would think it will come back down, but who knows?

Many won't sell their previous Ms till they have the new one, so I think it's two months before the real deals are common.

Sony a7rii is dropping now. 2300 for a LN used is not unusual. New price is also down.

brennanphotoguy
01-23-2017, 13:58
M10s aren't readily available yet either. The only people who are dumping stuff now are the early adopters. You won't see a big price impact until the M10 becomes a regularly stocked item or at least until there are larger batches hitting the market. Give it 6-8 months.

coelacanth
01-23-2017, 13:59
I see two M240s at Leica Miami just added. One is $3495 and another is $3395. Maybe not too long till you see 3k even from private party.

CVickery
01-23-2017, 14:16
There will be some pressure on M240 and M9 prices as early upgraders dump their bodies, but my sense so far is that this isn't a compelling upgrade for M240 users so many users may just continue to use their M240s for now. For M9 users the M10 offers much more and seems to address some issues.

I expect that the real price declines will happen later, when used M10s start hitting the market.

Emile de Leon
01-23-2017, 16:37
Prices for M240 are going to take a big hit..I mentioned this a few days ago..and most people here disagreed..
The reason for the price dive...
The M10 is the most perfect digital Leica rangefinder ever.. and not by a small margin either..people are going to get rid of their bloated fatties...lol...as fast as they can dump em...most don't need video..
Old guys that is..are a goin to dump em as fast as they can..as they wont be able to stomach having the fat bodies..
And what does that mean to me..
This old guy here..is a going to be looking for a mint used M240 at a discount price ..probably a cash deal locally..and that will be that...I cant wait..
and yes..$3500-..will be way to high in a few months..
Dealers will be offering peanuts for them in trade..and the 240 will go the way of the M5..the one that was the mis-step..
And that goes for the M262 and variations...their prices will dive too..
Leica had the M10 right around the corner in development when they released the MD and 262...and if I may..in an unconscionable manner..they released them anyway just to make more bux...firstly off the new ver soon to be superceded....and then..with a potential double sale..all the upcoming newer versions with the thinner bodies...a good 2-fer....for...Leica..
Hey...
You don't want that fat body you just bought do ya...nope you dont..get this new slim one here..
We at Leica..are always moving forward..! ..Developin ..new..stuff..for our customers..oh yeah..
Lol...

splitimageview
01-23-2017, 16:53
I agree. The 240 will fall precipitously.

BTW it's not unconscionable for a manufacturer to release products to make money. That is, in fact, why they exist. :)

gdi
01-23-2017, 17:06
That M10 is the only Leica to grab my interest since I sold off my M9 (and never looked back). Finally a digital M that will handle as well as an M3, or a R-D1, for that matter. Try as I might, those overstuffed M9/M8 etc bodies are a real turn off, especially if you have been using a film M for a while.

Now I am hoping that it has a top quality sensor that can compete with the much lower priced competition. If so, I'm likely in.

gdi
01-23-2017, 17:06
I agree. The 240 will fall precipitously.

BTW it's not unconscionable for a manufacturer to release products to make money. That is, in fact, why they exist. :)

Oh yeah, those prices will drop...

splitimageview
01-23-2017, 17:30
The improved viewfinder is the thing people are overlooking.

Sensor is great. All sensors are, pretty much, these days.

Huss
01-23-2017, 18:06
and the 240 will go the way of the M5..the one that was the mis-step...

The M240 will never be seen years from now as the greatest digital Leica ever made. But the M5 is widely considered the finest film Leica ever made by photographers. Not bauble collectors.
:D

Emile de Leon
01-23-2017, 19:14
I hated the M5..its a truck..lol..

Huss
01-23-2017, 20:35
I hated the M5..its a truck..lol..

The BMW M5 is anything but a truck. Personally my favourite edition was the E39 edition.

f16sunshine
01-23-2017, 20:52
E28 for me. :D

Huss
01-23-2017, 21:59
E28 for me. :D

You can't go wrong until you get to the V10 models...

E28 - s'awright..
E35 - :cool:

willie_901
01-24-2017, 06:11
A stock, well-sorted 2.5 liter E30 M is shockingly quick around a road-racing course. One equipped with the stickiest legal street tires is amazing.

Ko.Fe.
01-24-2017, 06:46
Finally a digital M that will handle as well as an M3, or a R-D1, for that matter. Try as I might, those overstuffed M9/M8 etc bodies are a real turn off, especially if you have been using a film M for a while.


:rolleyes:
To me it is very misleading statement above.

I've been using film Leicas for some time now. For all year, every day photography. Shooting with M-E (came after M9) is the same experience.
I'm happy with M-E because it is very close to my film M cameras.
M10 is closer by its size to film M, but M-E is close to film M as well.
M10 is much more "overstuffed" and much more distant from film M, comparing to classic M8/M9.
M10 has LED instead of real frame lines, huge ISO range which leaves film ISO range compromised and different from film M OVF. M10 is supporting EVF and LV with magnified focus peaking. This is "overstuffed" comparing M8/M9, which are free of those non-RF gimmicks.

brennanphotoguy
01-24-2017, 07:04
Overstuff compated to the "classic M8/M9?" LOL. It's called an evolution of the product line. The M8 wasn't very good to begin with, the M9 generation is fine but it's laggy and has it's own set of drawbacks. The M10 is a big step forward from a company that looks like it's finally getting back to what it's M line of cameras should be. And, his one point was that it's closer in size to a film M. You read into his comment way too much when he said "overstuffed."

splitimageview
01-24-2017, 07:07
The M10 doesn't have an EVF 'gimmick' unless one chooses to add one. The M9 couldn't do live view in any case, due to using a CCD. And who would want to do live view with an LCD screen from a 2004 point-and-shoot?

The M10 viewfinder is superior to any film M viewfinder, and ISO range is superior to film, like any modern sensor.

The M10 will seriously depress the value of previous digital Ms.

fenixv8
01-24-2017, 07:18
Not too hard to find a M10, I picked up mine yesterday. I sold my M240 privately because the dealer I took it to wouldnt take it because he had bought 5 from sellers that day alone.

Also I imagine Leica slash of new M240 prices will affect used values?

Ko.Fe.
01-24-2017, 07:39
Wow, five M240 users in Toronto?

It will affect, but nothing like "slashing" will happen. BH price of M10 and M240 is the same. Entire digital M market is small and Leica is the only digital RF manufacturer. As long as digital M is supported by Leica it is desirable. Even M8 which has partial only support from Leica is still one of most expensive digital camera among used ones.

Personally, I going to keep M-E and will try to get another used digital M. Who knows, by the time I'll have enough money, M10 might be trashed by M11 followers :)
At 6500$ for new M10 vs 3500$ for used M240 it is win-win situation for those like me, who would prefer to have two cameras instead of one.

jsrockit
01-24-2017, 07:54
Even M8 which has partial only support from Leica is still one of most expensive digital camera among used ones.

Exactly... compare the M8 to the Nikon D200 (or similar spec'd camera) and the price difference is huge.

splitimageview
01-24-2017, 08:10
Well the M8 was a $5500 retail when it came out ten years ago. A D200 wasn't anywhere near that. Plus there are far more D200s in the market than M8s.

It's all supply/demand, and the demand for the 240 will plummet; so will the price.

jsrockit
01-24-2017, 09:11
Well the M8 was a $5500 retail when it came out ten years ago. A D200 wasn't anywhere near that. Plus there are far more D200s in the market than M8s.

It's all supply/demand, and the demand for the 240 will plummet; so will the price.

Oh course those are factors as well, but what other 10mp camera CCD would people even use daily other than the M8 (other than out of necessity)?

splitimageview
01-24-2017, 09:14
What other 10mp CCD rangefinder is there? :) If it were a DSLR instead, it would be a $100ish item, or less, considering Leica can't always repair them.

Ko.Fe.
01-24-2017, 09:37
Oh course those are factors as well, but what other 10mp camera CCD would people even use daily other than the M8 (other than out of necessity)?

6.1 MP CCD R-D1. Cult camera with alive followers.
Those are also one of the highest priced used digital cameras.
Was GR 10MP CCD with max ISO1600? Still going strong with many users.

I'm using my M-E set to 11mp JPEG1. Absolutely no problems with editing and 8.5x11 prints.

I know it is going to hit me by the time Leica will open Gallery in Toronto and they will find out what they can't print mine by one meter long on short side. I'm OK with it. Will come to see what M10 24 MP Torontonians did.

jsrockit
01-24-2017, 10:23
6.1 MP CCD R-D1. Cult camera with alive followers.
Those are also one of the highest priced used digital cameras.
Was GR 10MP CCD with max ISO1600? Still going strong with many users.


True, but I think I meant cameras that aren't special. There aren't any cheap rangefinders so people still use these older models for that reason. The original 8mp GR people swear by, but it is cheap. I should have said, what 10mp DSLR do people use because they prefer it over newer cameras (as opposed to not being able to / or wanting to upgrade)?

jsrockit
01-24-2017, 10:24
What other 10mp CCD rangefinder is there? :) If it were a DSLR instead, it would be a $100ish item, or less, considering Leica can't always repair them.

That's my point.

uhoh7
01-24-2017, 10:43
Well the M8 was a $5500 retail when it came out ten years ago. A D200 wasn't anywhere near that. Plus there are far more D200s in the market than M8s.

It's all supply/demand, and the demand for the 240 will plummet; so will the price.

OK make your prediction:

easy to find for 2500 by this summer? :)

CameraQuest
01-24-2017, 11:11
OK make your prediction:

easy to find for 2500 by this summer? :)

doubtful but we shall see.

I would guess $3000 now for a mint boxed M240 with all the factory goodies from private sellers.

Dealers will likely need a higher price.

the big advantage of the used M240 is you don't have to worry about corroded sensors, dead LCDs or coffee stains.

Time to break your piggy banks.
Its a good time to upgrade to whatever digital M tickles your fancy.

Emile de Leon
01-24-2017, 11:20
M240...
$2750..if not lower...for cash deal..local...in a few months...if not sooner..
And put $2500 in front of them at point of sale..and trust me..they will take it..no questions asked..

ChrisLivsey
01-24-2017, 11:34
Well the M8 was a $5500 retail when it came out ten years ago. A D200 wasn't anywhere near that.

UK Launch price of M8 3,000 now 1,000 lost 2,000 or 67%
UK Launch price of D200 1,300 now 180 lost 1,120 or 86%

You can decide which was the best buy, the camera that lost you 86% of its value or the one that lost you 2,000.

Personally I don't think there is a right answer to that, I still have my M8 and it works, well most of it does excepting the LEDs, my D2H is a paperweight, and a highly efficient one.

jsrockit
01-24-2017, 11:47
I'm using my M-E set to 11mp JPEG1. Absolutely no problems with editing and 8.5x11 prints.

May I ask why?

brennanphotoguy
01-24-2017, 11:53
doubtful but we shall see.

I would guess $3000 now for a mint boxed M240 with all the factory goodies from private sellers.

Dealers will likely need a higher price.

the big advantage of the used M240 is you don't have to worry about corroded sensors, dead LCDs or coffee stains.

Time to break your piggy banks.
Its a good time to upgrade to whatever digital M tickles your fancy.

Leica Miami is already selling used M240s for $3400. I bet within 6 months they'll be down to $3000 from Leica stores and $2500-$2800 from private sellers.

Huss
01-24-2017, 11:58
M240...
$2750..if not lower...for cash deal..local...in a few months...if not sooner..
And put $2500 in front of them at point of sale..and trust me..they will take it..no questions asked..


I always find attitudes like this amusing. I have sold lots of items privately, always cash sale - what else would I accept? The idea that cash in front of the seller makes a difference.. how? That is what the seller accepts.

I just sold an Xpan-1 for $1600. Cash. Guess what my asking price was? $1600. Guess how many people offered me much less for a cash sale? What other kind of sale did they think this would be?!

I kinda agree with Stephen (Cameraquest) but I think that once the initial buying frenzy dies down, the M240 will settle at $3500. Because it is still a fantastic camera and the next step up would cost the buyer $3000 more!

Huss
01-24-2017, 12:01
Leica Miami is already selling used M240s for $3400. I bet within 6 months they'll be down to $3000 from Leica stores and $2500-$2800 from private sellers.

I don't think so. I think the prices right now are driven by the flood of early adopters who just have to have the M10 and will do anything to unload the M240.
Once things calm down, there will be a realization that the M10 costs about double that of a nice used M240. And that will be a reality check for many.

Ko.Fe.
01-24-2017, 12:03
I always find attitudes like this amusing...

Sounds like attitude for stolen gear at pawn shop.

jsrockit
01-24-2017, 12:34
I always find attitudes like this amusing. I have sold lots of items privately, always cash sale - what else would I accept? The idea that cash in front of the seller makes a difference.. how? That is what the seller accepts.

I just sold an Xpan-1 for $1600. Cash. Guess what my asking price was? $1600. Guess how many people offered me much less for a cash sale? What other kind of sale did they think this would be?!


Hahaha, agreed. I think there are people who think if you are selling, you must be desperate for cash. Some people only sell stuff when they need to. I sell stuff that I'm not using and no longer care about and have the luxury of waiting for my price. I have met someone in person, have had them pull the low ball cash thing, and told them no. They banked on the lower price and did not have the cash to pay my asking price. It just wasted both of our time.

As far as the price, I can see $3000 for the M240 and $2000 for the M9 in the next 6 months.

Bill Clark
01-24-2017, 12:38
I can get a fair amount of film scanned for what this camera cost!

fenixv8
01-24-2017, 12:45
Leica in Europe has already adjusted the price of the M240. USA will do it soon.

jsrockit
01-24-2017, 13:13
I can get a fair amount of film scanned for what this camera cost!

But how good will those scans be? and how much did the film cost? and the film camera? Photography, in general, is expensive.

Now, I bought three Fujis with 4 lenses for the cost of this body... but if one wants this Leica, then that info doesn't matter. :)

benlees
01-24-2017, 13:39
An M9 sold in the classifieds, with a replaced sensor, last week for $2450. It sold right away. As luck would have it, there was another M9 in the classifieds that needed sensor replacement. It was the same price. AFAIK, its still available. So, for an M9 in good shape $2450 is a very good price.

I don't think we are going to see $2500 for an M240, or $2000 for the M9, for awhile...

Emile de Leon
01-24-2017, 14:34
Originally Posted by Emile de Leon View Post

M240...
$2750..if not lower...for cash deal..local...in a few months...if not sooner..
And put $2500 in front of them at point of sale..and trust me..they will take it..no questions asked..


I always find attitudes like this amusing.
Same here...that people actually think that other people are..mentally..just like them...in a cash sale..and wont budge on price..
Cash is king..period..most people are aware of this..and..I've been in retail for 23 years now..and know what people buy or dont buy..and for how much..esp when cash is concerned..
People are going to dump their m240s like hot cakes..and even moreso when other "skinny" models are released..
Sorry to tell you this boys..your expensive M240s are going down...no matter how much you may be in denial about it..
..there is a new skinny gal in town..lol..and she aint takin no prisoners..

Ko.Fe.
01-24-2017, 14:45
May I ask why?

Sorry, I missed this question. 11 MP is enough for any possible print I could imagine to be able to print, afford.
JPEG1 is longer story, but in short I know after years and hundred thousands pictures how to take it right.

Huss
01-24-2017, 14:52
Same here...that people actually think that other people are..mentally..just like them...in a cash sale..and wont budge on price..
Cash is king..period..most people are aware of this..and..I've been in retail for 23 years now..and know what people buy or dont buy..and for how much..esp when cash is concerned..


Exactly cash is king. It is the only thing that is accepted in a private sale. So why do you think showing up with cash would make any difference? It is the only thing expected and accepted.

As for the M240 value plummetting - that is natural and happens to all mfgs.
I recently bought a perfect Nikon D750 for $1100 used. This is a current production camera, and I got it for 58% of the new price.
I bought my M100 M240 as a demo for $4200 a few years ago. It originally was $8200 new. See a pattern here?

I'm looking forward to your comments 4 years from now when the M11 is released, and you gloat as to how prices of the M10 have plummeted. These things are disposable items, not investment pieces.

Do you also go on car sites and post how someone's 4 year old car is now worth 40% of its new cost?
:D

Huss
01-24-2017, 15:38
Here is what I can pay for scanning, when I care to hsve it done:

http://linhoff.com/film-processing.html


Holy moly $33 for dev/scan for one roll of 120 C41 film?!!!

That's about double the cost of the excellent pro labs I use - northcoastphoto and thefindlab

Talus
01-24-2017, 15:49
An M9 sold in the classifieds, with a replaced sensor, last week for $2450. It sold right away. As luck would have it, there was another M9 in the classifieds that needed sensor replacement. It was the same price. AFAIK, its still available. So, for an M9 in good shape $2450 is a very good price.

I don't think we are going to see $2500 for an M240, or $2000 for the M9, for awhile...

Yeah, prices are dropping a bit. Quite a few digital Ms showing up in the craigslist in the NYC area near me too. I could see M9s in that range. The M240 might take a little longer as people that have been waiting for for their first digital M (or that are unimpressed by the M10) are going to be scooping a lot of these up. I'd say by late Summer/Fall the 240s will be at $2500.

Bill Clark
01-24-2017, 15:53
That's about double the cost of the excellent pro labs I use - northcoastphoto and thefindlab

Maybe I wasn't clear but I was pointing out how many develop and scans could be made compared with the cost of the M-10.

That's great you seem to have a less expensive place.

At any rate, lots of develop and scans can be made compared to the investment required for an M-10.

Thanks.

Huss
01-31-2017, 11:48
Maybe I wasn't clear but I was pointing out how many develop and scans could be made compared with the cost of the M-10.

That's great you seem to have a less expensive place.

At any rate, lots of develop and scans can be made compared to the investment required for an M-10.

Thanks.

Yes but if one compared using your place to 'mine', using yours would be the equivalent to paying $13,000 for an M10.

Ko.Fe.
01-31-2017, 12:14
Maybe I wasn't clear but I was pointing out how many develop and scans could be made compared with the cost of the M-10.

That's great you seem to have a less expensive place.

At any rate, lots of develop and scans can be made compared to the investment required for an M-10.

Thanks.

It depends. Let's say I'm selling all of the film gear and getting 6500$ M10.
My bw film photography is about 2500 frames per year. Which is about seventy 36 frames rolls per year. And this is what I'm getting from four bulks of 30.5m 50$ bw film. 200$ for bw film per year, plus 50$ for chemicals per year and 135 scanner for 400$. 6500-400=6100/200+50=24 years of bw film. If we take CLA for every five years at [email protected] it is 6100-1000=5100, which is still 20 years of bulk bw film developed and scanned at home.
Now, if it is in color and no home processing/scanning, just getting digital image as with M10 . Cheap color film is 3$ now. Processing and scanning is something like 15$. About 20$ per roll of film to get it as files in quality, not just low res JPEG1 scans. 70x20=1400.
6500/1400=4.6. Less than five years. If film equal to digital. M10 gets pictures in color and it is up to you to convert it in bw or use it in color.
But after five years M10 will still cost 3000$ if you want to sell it and be done with it.

http://www.downtowncamera.com/photofinishing-services/colour-film/
I used "Developing and Scan to TIFF – 2048 x 3072 Econo" for price reference.

jsrockit
01-31-2017, 12:15
At any rate, lots of develop and scans can be made compared to the investment required for an M-10.


Not a really good comparison since these scans typically suck... badly. Now, it can get you a lot of development and a decent scanner.

CameraQuest
02-19-2017, 14:12
2/19/17

To date M10 deliveries are way behind the orders.
One dealer had 25+ M10's on order and has only taken delivery of 6 M10s!

So, until M10s are plentiful on dealer shelves (months away)
we will likely not see their full impact on M240 family prices.

Stephen

Huss
02-19-2017, 15:17
LeicaStore LA told me their waiting list is 200 deep. With zero in stock.

Chubberino
04-10-2017, 17:22
Still waiting, lol.

jsrockit
04-10-2017, 17:45
It's a nice camera, but waits are typical for Leica. Now, where is that 50mm Q? ;)

airfrogusmc
04-11-2017, 05:41
Tamarkin here in Chicago I was told that the waiting list is now 250. Probably well over a year.

Chubberino
04-11-2017, 06:04
It's a nice camera, but waits are typical for Leica. Now, where is that 50mm Q? ;)

Sorry, I was laughing at the expected price drops on M8's and M9's as predicted and it's not happening.

Gregm61
04-11-2017, 07:58
Tamarkin here in Chicago I was told that the waiting list is now 250. Probably well over a year.

That's just about right for me. I'm slowly working my way to be in a position to buy one early next year so when the opportunity presents itself, I can move. Until then, my M262 is doing quite nice. The next few months I do need to consider selling the M9 to M9-P conversion.

airfrogusmc
04-12-2017, 07:20
I'm saving my $$$$ for one and wont be ready until next year. I could sell my M-E but I think I am going to keep it as well as my 262 and add the M 10.

Vobluda
04-12-2017, 08:26
If anyone would start negotiating price with me for whatever I am selling after we meet in person and not in advance via phone or email I am just slamming the door into that person face.

M240...
$2750..if not lower...for cash deal..local...in a few months...if not sooner..
And put $2500 in front of them at point of sale..and trust me..they will take it..no questions asked..

hap
04-12-2017, 11:42
It depends. Let's say I'm selling all of the film gear and getting 6500$ M10.
My bw film photography is about 2500 frames per year. Which is about seventy 36 frames rolls per year. And this is what I'm getting from four bulks of 30.5m 50$ bw film. 200$ for bw film per year, plus 50$ for chemicals per year and 135 scanner for 400$. 6500-400=6100/200+50=24 years of bw film. If we take CLA for every five years at [email protected] it is 6100-1000=5100, which is still 20 years of bulk bw film developed and scanned at home.
Now, if it is in color and no home processing/scanning, just getting digital image as with M10 . Cheap color film is 3$ now. Processing and scanning is something like 15$. About 20$ per roll of film to get it as files in quality, not just low res JPEG1 scans. 70x20=1400.
6500/1400=4.6. Less than five years. If film equal to digital. M10 gets pictures in color and it is up to you to convert it in bw or use it in color.
But after five years M10 will still cost 3000$ if you want to sell it and be done with it.

http://www.downtowncamera.com/photofinishing-services/colour-film/
I used "Developing and Scan to TIFF 2048 x 3072 Econo" for price reference.

First....this downtown photo looks like a scanning winner , especially if you like very high res and TIFF.

Second....I stayed on the fence for as long as I could stand regarding a digital M. The short stsory....I bought a 240 and not an M9. the price delta a bit over 700. Total price including PP and shipping.....approx 3100. Mint example or very close to it.

could I have saved some money looking for a more "used" copy? Perhaps. If it is worth 2600 in six months....will I cry the blues? Hell no. But I kind of doubt the premise. I just want to know that they will fix if broken.

fenixv8
05-15-2017, 11:06
Leica Camera announced today they will end the free CCD sensors replacement for M9/M9-P/M-E/Monochrom cameras that are older than 5 years on August 15th, 2017. After that date, Leica will continue to replace the sensor only in cases where the cameras have been purchased as new products within the last five years. For cameras older than 5 years, the sensor replacement will still be available for 982 euros (around $1000). Here are the details:


Latest information concerning the CCD sensors of the Leica M9 / M9-P / M Monochrom and M-E camera models
Following the successfully implemented and largely completed replacement program for corroded sensors that affected M9, M9-P, M Monochrom and M-E camera models, we would now like to inform you about how this program will be handled in the future.

Until August 15, 2017, we will continue to offer free replacement of sensors for these camera models if they are affected by the corrosion problem. This will also apply after August 16, 2017 for the models listed above, but only in cases where the cameras have been purchased as new products within the last five years.

From August 16, 2017, and until further notice, we will offer our customers the following new program for all camera models mentioned above that were purchased more than five years ago. Here, the customer pays a portion of the replacement costs for the affected CCD sensor amounting to 982 euros (825 euros plus 19% VAT). In addition to this we also offer you a free general overhaul* of your Leica M camera and a one year warranty in line with the same terms as for new products. This offer expresses our commitment to conserving the value of your camera.

We have also revised our upgrade offers with more attractive terms for our customers. Instead of a sensor replacement, we offer our customers the alternative option of sending us their camera affected by sensor corrosion as partial payment for the purchase of selected Leica M camera models of the Typ 240 generation at even more attractive terms. Leica Customer Care will be pleased to inform and advise interested customers about the terms and conditions of the upgrade offer.

With regard to the above, we would like to remind you that the replacement of CCD sensors and the upgrade offers apply only to cameras confirmed to be affected by this problem, and only to the models of the Leica M-System we have listed above. Preventive replacement of sensors is not included in this program.

*The general overhaul of the Leica M-camera includes the following items:

Cleaning and overhaul of the shutter cocking mechanisms
Cleaning and maintenance/repair of the multifunction wheel
Cleaning of the main switch and shutter speed dial
Adjustment of the baseplate locking system
Refurbishing of engravings
Renewal of the protective film on the baseplate
Maintenance/repair of viewfinder displays
Q&A:
HOW CAN I FIND OUT WHETHER MY LEICA M IS MORE THAN FIVE YEARS OLD?
The date on which you purchased your camera as a new product applies. The sales receipt serves as proof of the date of purchase. If you no longer have your sales receipt, the age of the camera will be determined from its serial number. In this case, the date on which it was supplied to the dealer applies.

WHICH POINT IN TIME IS USED FOR DETERMINING WHETHER MY CAMERA IS WITHIN THE PERIOD DESIGNATED FOR THE FULL GOODWILL ARRANGEMENT?
The date on which the defect was reported to Leica Camera AG applies. In each concrete case, a check of the camera by Leica Customer Care is required to prove that the problem is due to the corresponding sensor defect. This check can be made by sending the camera or a suitable test exposure to Leica Customer Care and subsequent checking of the camera by specialist personnel at Leica.

WHAT CAN I EXPECT TO PAY IF I DECIDE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE UPGRADE OPTION INSTEAD OF HAVING MY CAMERA REPAIRED?
Leica Customer Care can provide concrete prices for your upgrade wishes on request.

CAN I ALSO UPGRADE TO A LEICA M10?
Due to the extremely high demand for the new Leica M10, this model is excluded from the upgrade programme. Only the direct successors of the Leica M9 listed below are available as options in the upgrade programme:
• Leica M (Typ 240)
• Leica M-P (Typ 240)
• Leica M Monochrom (Typ 246)

jsrockit
05-15-2017, 13:51
Sorry, I was laughing at the expected price drops on M8's and M9's as predicted and it's not happening.

I knew it wouldn't.

fenixv8
05-16-2017, 06:22
The M9 will now.

Chubberino
05-16-2017, 07:11
The M9 will now.

Not if the sensor has been changed. I expect those versions will stay solid or even go up.

bucs
05-16-2017, 07:23
Not if the sensor has been changed. I expect those versions will stay solid or even go up.


If the sensor will eventually get damaged again i doubt prices will go up.

Chubberino
05-16-2017, 07:34
If the sensor will eventually get damaged again i doubt prices will go up.

I said the ones that have been changed which as far as I'm aware are fixed. Not sure if you missed that part of what I wrote, lol.