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View Full Version : Irrational urge to edit other people's classified ads.


Huss
11-10-2016, 10:36
Yes, I readily admit that this is completely irrational. But when I see an ad in the classifieds on RFF that is inaccurate and/or misleading, I have this urge - that I mostly resist - to comment on it. As if I am looking out for others.

There is a current ad in RFF for an M9, that quite frankly is beat up. Yet the seller claims it is near mint, and all reputable dealers would agree with him.
It even has the LCD panel covered with tape for some reason.

I guess by starting this thread I have succumbed to commenting on his sale, but at least not in his ad! But I am not worried that he would see it as he has zero posts, and obviously is only here to sell his gear and move on.

I've bought and sold a bunch of stuff on RFF and have enjoyed my experience, and would like it to remain a great resource for buyers and sellers. So is my behaviour protective of our site, or just something I need to talk to a shrink about and butt out?
:o

kxl
11-10-2016, 10:41
No offense, but starting a thread to talk about it seems passive-aggressive to me. If it bothers you that much, you should comment on the ad. If that's against RFF protocol, PM a mod.

No shrink necessary. ;)

Good luck!



Yes, I readily admit that this is completely irrational. But when I see an ad in the classifieds on RFF that is inaccurate and/or misleading, I have this urge - that I mostly resist - to comment on it. As if I am looking out for others.

There is a current ad in RFF for an M9, that quite frankly is beat up. Yet the seller claims it is near mint, and all reputable dealers would agree with him.
It even has the LCD panel covered with tape for some reason.

I guess by starting this thread I have succumbed to commenting on his sale, but at least not in his ad! But I am not worried that he would see it as he has zero posts, and obviously is only here to sell his gear and move on.

I've bought and sold a bunch of stuff on RFF and have enjoyed my experience, and would like it to remain a great resource for buyers and sellers. So is my behaviour protective of our site, or just something I need to talk to a shrink about and butt out?
:o

winzenbourg
11-10-2016, 10:52
I believe someone already tried to make mention of the fact that his camera is closer to BGN condition -- that comment and his response were both deleted. I do find it a bit odd to insist that a beat to hell camera is "NearMint or NEW," but eh, there are far more disconcerting things to be worrying about in our world than an inaccurate camera description.

Yes, I readily admit that this is completely irrational. But when I see an ad in the classifieds on RFF that is inaccurate and/or misleading, I have this urge - that I mostly resist - to comment on it. As if I am looking out for others.

There is a current ad in RFF for an M9, that quite frankly is beat up. Yet the seller claims it is near mint, and all reputable dealers would agree with him.
It even has the LCD panel covered with tape for some reason.

I guess by starting this thread I have succumbed to commenting on his sale, but at least not in his ad! But I am not worried that he would see it as he has zero posts, and obviously is only here to sell his gear and move on.

I've bought and sold a bunch of stuff on RFF and have enjoyed my experience, and would like it to remain a great resource for buyers and sellers. So is my behaviour protective of our site, or just something I need to talk to a shrink about and butt out?
:o

unixrevolution
11-10-2016, 11:10
At least he has pictures so you can see that it's beat up.

Do the mods have guidelines for condition? Someone should call him out on it.

Makes me wonder about other problems, like, for example, what if there were a mechanical issue the pictures don't show?

back alley
11-10-2016, 11:18
policy is that there is no discussion allowed in the ad itself. if you have concerns either don't buy it or p.m. the seller.

Godfrey
11-10-2016, 11:20
... and "Caveat emptor!" always applies ...

G

Huss
11-10-2016, 11:25
No offense, but starting a thread to talk about it seems passive-aggressive to me. ..

No shrink necessary. ;)



It totally is! I admit to this irrational behaviour...

BLKRCAT
11-10-2016, 11:58
Where's the ad?

edit: nvm found it

Editedit: Well the user is super new to the forum. 0 posts. Perhaps a mistake has been made. The description looks pretty cut and paste.

I especially like his avatar. I had a good chuckle at it.

Huss
11-10-2016, 13:26
http://bfy.tw/8gqd

:D

I have an appointment with Dr. Dunckley first thing in the morning.
:D

Steve M.
11-10-2016, 13:56
It's anything but irrational, it's rational. I've learned the hard way that it's better to let people make their own mistakes, which is different than sending a PM to a seller to ask if they knew there was an error in their ad. Obviously if someone reads a description that says near mint and they look at a non mint photograph of the camera and still buy it, that's on them.

sepiareverb
11-10-2016, 14:05
policy is that there is no discussion allowed in the ad itself. if you have concerns either don't buy it or p.m. the seller.

Could this be clarified? There is currently a lot of hubub over at LFF over the For Sale section, I would really hate to see this place end up with the same eviscerated classifieds.

I'm guessing this just falls under the "no negative comments" provisio?

seany65
11-10-2016, 15:11
I must confess that I sometimes send messages to sellers on ebay if I see them making a clear mistake, such as someone who knows nothing about cameras and lenses saying a lens is a "52mm skyilght" lens, (Yup, this really happened), I feel I have to contact them just in case they end up with a buyer who kicks up a fuss.

Fjäll
11-10-2016, 16:25
I must confess that I sometimes send messages to sellers on ebay if I see them making a clear mistake, such as someone who knows nothing about cameras and lenses saying a lens is a "52mm skyilght" lens, (Yup, this really happened), I feel I have to contact them just in case they end up with a buyer who kicks up a fuss.

I do too at times, but mostly when the seller might be unsure of what he is selling.

If the seller claims an item to be in a better condition that what it actually appears to be in, I think the responsibility lies in the buyer hands. The expression "pig in the poke" is from the middle ages after all.

kshapero
11-10-2016, 19:20
There will never be an end to stupidity. I should know I've messed up a few times on ads.

nobbylon
11-10-2016, 23:47
I've seen some peoples ad's ruined by nosey, interfering and quite frankly 'know it all' individuals in the past. If it's not your ad then unless you are actually buying it has nothing to do with you. Yes, there's many a time that I've thought 'good luck with that price' etc but if someone has paid money to advertise then behave and mind your own business.

grouchos_tash
11-11-2016, 00:17
I find it frustrating that people mislead or lie in online ads.

I had a camera delivered yesterday that was described as 'excellent working condition' that was completely dead with a snapped (something on the inside) winder. This is from eBay however. I'm adding it to a long list of eBay purchases that have been described as working and in excellent condition that needed repairing (and were returned)...

Leica R3
Canon AE-1
Fed 2
Ultron 35mm
Minolta X700
Ricoh GR
Contax T2

Keith
11-11-2016, 00:29
Over the last few years from the classifieds here and another forum I've bought:

A 'perfect' Nikon rangefinder that had a broken shutter brake spring.

A 'perfect' 50mm f1.8 Canon screwmount RF lens that has an internal element so trashed I haven't bothered to use it.

A 'perfect' Olympus OM that has an issue with the exposure compensation dial.

... and several more gems that I'd prefer not to think about!

David Hughes
11-11-2016, 01:00
Hi,

Not here but elsewhere the misspelt and confused makers' names throw up a lot of bargains. Especially the FED and Zorki variations and Fugi and so on...

Regards, David

jaapv
11-11-2016, 03:04
There is a fine line between (perhaps inadvertently) misleading and attempted fraud. The forum moderation should be alert for the latter. Just report an ad you mistrust.

Pherdinand
11-11-2016, 05:57
policy is that there is no discussion allowed in the ad itself. if you have concerns either don't buy it or p.m. the seller.

that is, excuse me, a dumb policy then.

jonmanjiro
11-11-2016, 06:18
that is, excuse me, a dumb policy then.

Reading the Classifieds Guidelines (link (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost-classifieds/index.php?cat=1) here, scroll down the page to the guidelines), the only guideline I can see that concerns comments is:

13) DO NOT place negative comments about ads or auctions. Sellers are free to place their ads. Buyers are free to buy, or not buy. There is no need for animosity.

Grafixer
11-11-2016, 09:13
Hello to all. Your reception of a new member is very lively. Here is my input: a Leica is a tool and not a museum piece. An other similarity between a Leica and a piece of artwork is, the value being in the eyes of the beholder. I might be biased towards this camera, but given its low actuation it is in excellent shape. I did mentioned the cosmetic scuffing on the surface, and had no intention of hiding them. The pictures could be cleaned up in Photoshop in less than 10 minutes. And THAT would be fraud. BTW, the protective film, and not a piece of tape, on the back screen, is what the Leica service put on the last time they serviced it. So much is for observing accurately the facts or projecting one's opinion.
I am sorry to waste the time for all bargain hunters and speculators, but I listed honestly and offered additional pictures or more detailed description for interested parties. Having a discussion behind someone's back sounds to me more like an attempt for public lynching rather than constructive criticism. As far for the chuckle of BLKCAT after seeing my avatar, I am glad to bring some smile in your day. As a photographer, hiding behind some generic graphic design is sounds more pathetic or at least laughable.
My only advice is what others already expressed: buyer beware. Ask any question and I would be happy to disclose it. I am sure there are many offers out there for better equipment and many more for junk. I think this is an honest deal. Not a steel, and not some over hyped deal. Thank you again for your comments.

KM-25
11-11-2016, 10:25
It is really rare for a thread to be started about a piece of gear for sale in the RFF classifieds that seeks to address this angle, so one only has to ask what caused it.

In this case, we have "An Unbelievable Offer" in that we have a Leica M9 and Summarit 50 for sale that is at least $,1500 higher than even the average price on eBay which like it or not, is *the* barometer for what things are selling for.

To add a few more strokes of the hand on the head to scratch one's noggin, the camera is described as "“near mint” or 9 by most reputable experts or dealers." No...not only is not not mint, as far as cosmetics go, this camera would be listed by a dealer like KEH as "bargain" condition. And 16,500 clicks on a low FPS rangefinder is not low, it is average. Also, even if Leica put it on, why would you *leave* the rather unwholesome and ugly tape on the screen if you are trying to show the camera in it's best light? And for that matter, there is not even a mention of the condition of the screen.

There are 50 Summarits in mint or new condition that can be had for under $1,000. There are truly clean grey M9's with fewer than 8K in clicks that are to be had for $2,600.

No one is trying to pull a fast one on you, we just know what things go for and also know that calling this camera mint makes you look bad and expecting over 5K for this kit is a pipe dream. It is not going to sell for that on here. It is also not going to sell for that on any other forum, craigslist or ebay.

Bottom line is that this user grade camera called mint and it's accompanying kit is not going to sell for 5K. Also, people generally are not looking for a kit, they want to make their own so you are far better off selling these items independently. You can take offense to that all the live long day but the facts are the facts.

Good luck with your sale....

Spavinaw
11-11-2016, 12:10
Yes, over the years I've seen lots of "misteaks" in auction listings. I think the most common one is the single focal length zoom lens.
In all my years I have only written to "correct" one item. As I recall it was a skylight or UV filter by Canon. On the rim it said "For Scoopic Only" (a movie camera). The seller had stated this in the listing, but I'm sure he and most other folks would not know why it was there. I did, because I also had one of these filters. You see the glass is deep set into the metal rim so that when screwed in, the filter glass is one or two millimeters closer to the front element of the lens than a normal filter. Knowing the disaster that could occur if filter and lens met, I wrote the seller. He thanked me, and noted the situation in his auction listing. Potential disaster averted.

giulio stucchi
11-11-2016, 12:27
I kind of laugh when I first saw the ad and the description and simply ignored it.
My only suggestion to the head bartender is to allow sales through RFF only for active users with a minimum number of post.

Giulio

mpaniagua
11-11-2016, 13:47
Hello to all. Your reception of a new member is very lively. Here is my input: a Leica is a tool and not a museum piece. An other similarity between a Leica and a piece of artwork is, the value being in the eyes of the beholder. I might be biased towards this camera, but given its low actuation it is in excellent shape. I did mentioned the cosmetic scuffing on the surface, and had no intention of hiding them. The pictures could be cleaned up in Photoshop in less than 10 minutes. And THAT would be fraud. BTW, the protective film, and not a piece of tape, on the back screen, is what the Leica service put on the last time they serviced it. So much is for observing accurately the facts or projecting one's opinion.
I am sorry to waste the time for all bargain hunters and speculators, but I listed honestly and offered additional pictures or more detailed description for interested parties. Having a discussion behind someone's back sounds to me more like an attempt for public lynching rather than constructive criticism. As far for the chuckle of BLKCAT after seeing my avatar, I am glad to bring some smile in your day. As a photographer, hiding behind some generic graphic design is sounds more pathetic or at least laughable.
My only advice is what others already expressed: buyer beware. Ask any question and I would be happy to disclose it. I am sure there are many offers out there for better equipment and many more for junk. I think this is an honest deal. Not a steel, and not some over hyped deal. Thank you again for your comments.

Hello and welcome to the forum Grafixer. I think most comments could be avoided with a more correct description of the item. I've been handling cameras for about 30 years and, IMHO, a near mint camera doesn't show brassing or scratches, just minor scuffs on the paint surface. Camera is in great shape but, like it's been said, not near mint. You are entitled to name your price, I don't see fault in that. If potential buyer doesn't agree with your price, then he/she should move on and keep looking.

Check on KEH grading:

https://www.keh.com/shop/grading-system

This is the first link I thought about but give you a general idea.

Again, welcome to the forum and good luck on the sale.

Marcelo

jarski
11-11-2016, 14:09
My only suggestion to the head bartender is to allow sales through RFF only for active users with a minimum number of post.

Am bit skeptical would this lead to anything else than new sellers posting useless comments to meet required quota?

Am not using classifieds here because most items are in another continent, behind customs etc. But isn't there way for members to flag misleading ads and help mods to spot them and notify seller?

summar
11-11-2016, 14:13
I occasionally send a message to a seller if s/he mentions uncertainty about some detail of the equipment and I know the equiment through experience. So far they've always expressed appreciation for my clarification.

rfaspen
11-11-2016, 14:26
Its unfortunate that the new member joined the forum through the process of placing an ad. If he meant to genuinely join our group and be a participating member, he should understand that we see a lot of people who join for the express purpose of unloading gear in the classifieds, and nothing else. Its hard not to take offense to the comments regarding his ad, but they are mostly valid. It would also seem prudent to present the ad in a manner fitting the market. RFF members are quite aware of the market (price), and the rating of condition for gear. The ad seemed like it might have been targeted to a different market, and that too is unfortunate. Clearly, the new member started poking around the forum, perhaps to start getting a feel for our forum, so it could be a matter of his not knowing the level of knowledge among folks here. So if I give the benefit of the doubt; it may be the order of events that is unfortunate here. To Grafixer, if your intent is to join our forum, please try to understand and stick around. Really is a good group (and quite diverse) here. Like all forums, can be contentious at times, but what's new with that? Personally, I warmly welcome new members, and I think that's the general feeling here. So if we're starting on the wrong foot, stick around...

seany65
11-11-2016, 16:22
Hello Grafixer, and welcome to the forum. Well, it seems your membership has started with a bang.

I have in the past also started a membership of a forum off in a similar way, I wasn't selling anything, but things didn't go quite as smoothly as I'd expected.


I've been trying to find Grafix's advert. I can't afford an M9, but I am a nosey little turd. I've found the section of '35mm Full Frame and smaller format' and looked at page one, but when I click on 'page 2' etc. page one just opens again.

Anyone got any idea what's going on? Any help would be much appreciated.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but there is a link to this thread, well sort of.

ChrisPlatt
11-11-2016, 18:00
It would be neat to have the ability to edit others ads. I'd slash prices on all the items I want. :)

Reminds me of bringing a price labeling gun to the supermarket (before there were UPC codes).
Or Roger Thornhill (Cary Grant) bidding down prices in the art auction scene in North By Northwest...

mjc
11-11-2016, 18:20
I kind of laugh when I first saw the ad and the description and simply ignored it.
My only suggestion to the head bartender is to allow sales through RFF only for active users with a minimum number of post.

Giulio

This seems like an interesting / good idea. It imposes some 'costs' on a seller to be a member of the RFF crowd for a while. Perhaps 10 or so posts? Do any other forum have minimum engagement terms before posting classifieds?

CMur12
11-11-2016, 18:47
I belong to another forum (not photography) where one has to have 25 posts before being able to sell something. I always thought that was pretty reasonable.

- Murray

unixrevolution
11-12-2016, 11:27
Hello to all. Your reception of a new member is very lively. Here is my input: a Leica is a tool and not a museum piece. An other similarity between a Leica and a piece of artwork is, the value being in the eyes of the beholder. I might be biased towards this camera, but given its low actuation it is in excellent shape. I did mentioned the cosmetic scuffing on the surface, and had no intention of hiding them. The pictures could be cleaned up in Photoshop in less than 10 minutes. And THAT would be fraud. BTW, the protective film, and not a piece of tape, on the back screen, is what the Leica service put on the last time they serviced it. So much is for observing accurately the facts or projecting one's opinion.
I am sorry to waste the time for all bargain hunters and speculators, but I listed honestly and offered additional pictures or more detailed description for interested parties. Having a discussion behind someone's back sounds to me more like an attempt for public lynching rather than constructive criticism. As far for the chuckle of BLKCAT after seeing my avatar, I am glad to bring some smile in your day. As a photographer, hiding behind some generic graphic design is sounds more pathetic or at least laughable.
My only advice is what others already expressed: buyer beware. Ask any question and I would be happy to disclose it. I am sure there are many offers out there for better equipment and many more for junk. I think this is an honest deal. Not a steel, and not some over hyped deal. Thank you again for your comments.

Thank you for coming to explain your perpective, and I find it to be completely valid. I have to admit, I didn't so much as try to find your ad before I left my comments above, which I do believe to be good generic guidelines, but are not necessarily applicable in your case.

I'm sorry if I gave you cause for offense, and hope that you can still enjoy participating in the active, generally positive community here.

Grafixer
11-12-2016, 21:32
Thank you all for your contributions and comments. Some I did find useful and I implemented many suggestions to clarify a few fine points. I do remember the time when I wanted to rekindle my rangefinder experience. While I started out photography with a Russian made Leica copy, but for many decades I became an SRL and later a DSRL user. However about six years ago I bought my M9. Before I did, I was surfing many Leica forum to educate myself. I admit that I am more of a consumer of forums rather than contributor. Nevertheless I bought my first Leica as a kit (it was the M8.2 with a 28mm Summicron.) I sold the camera and kept the lens. I still have it. Leica also sells from time to time kits. So I am convinced there is a market for it. Perhaps not like you Leicaphyle folks, but there are people who would like to pick up a complete kit and start experimenting. This group is my target market.
It is somewhat sad that you people do not make room for these newbies. Many of you sound like some uber elite expert, who cannot tolerate other people with less knowledge than you claim to have. According to you (at least that what sounds like) people who cannot identify any Leica product by it’s serial number, including the color, the year when it was produced and the chief designer, should not share the planet with you. They just sucking the air from the worthy.
However I am a big boy, and as long as things do not get personal, I can take it. If I get bruised I will remember to list myself as BGN and nothing above. Thank you all again for the experience and for taking the time and giving me a good lesson.

John Lawrence
11-13-2016, 00:18
Can't see what all the fuss is about.

If you don't like the price and / or don't think the description is accurate, then don't buy it.

As a general comment, I find that most of the gear I've seen in the classifieds here seems to be more expensive than comparable items elsewhere.

Cheers,

John

nobbylon
11-13-2016, 03:05
Can't see what all the fuss is about.

If you don't like the price and / or don't think the description is accurate, then don't buy it.

As a general comment, I find that most of the gear I've seen in the classifieds here seems to be more expensive than comparable items elsewhere.

Cheers,

John

Exactly, too many advert assasins here.

As for limiting people with x amount of posts to list items for sale, I can't see it as it's revenue for site owner.

I do think that prices are expected to be lower here than anywhere else.

John Lawrence
11-13-2016, 08:21
Still can't see what all the fuss is about.

Why does it matter to so many people what price a seller wants to sell their item at?

I don't feel the need or urge to go round the local used car lots telling the dealers the cars they have for sale are overpriced, not described properly - or give them advice on how best to sell them.

Cheers,

John

splitimageview
11-13-2016, 08:48
Used car dealers generally know what the market will bear. People that don't sell gear every day might appreciate a few tips.

John Lawrence
11-13-2016, 09:25
Used car dealers generally know what the market will bear.

So why do I see so many used cars priced on dealers forecourts far above the price for the same car at other dealers and why do I see so many of them not being sold, and why do I see so many used car dealers going under??

Cheers,

John

John Lawrence
11-13-2016, 09:27
People that don't sell gear every day might appreciate a few tips.

Wouldn't it be more courteous to wait until someone asks for advice / tips before giving it?

Cheers,

John

splitimageview
11-13-2016, 09:43
It appears the seller is appreciative:

Thank you all for your contributions and comments. Some I did find useful and I implemented many suggestions to clarify a few fine points.

splitimageview
11-13-2016, 09:47
So why do I see so many used cars priced on dealers forecourts far above the price for the same car at other dealers and why do I see so many of them not being sold, and why do I see so many used car dealers going under??


Professional sellers that don't figure out how to sell, will likely go under, or they will learn how it's done and avoid it. :)

John Lawrence
11-13-2016, 09:49
It appears the seller is appreciative:

.... worth reading the rest of his post too.

Cheers,

John

John Lawrence
11-13-2016, 09:55
Professional sellers that don't figure out how to sell, will likely go under, or they will learn how it's done and avoid it. :)

So the best thing for a novice or inexperienced seller who wants to sell something through the classifieds here is to ask for advice from more experienced / professional sellers here on how to price / grade and market their item? And if they don't ask for advice before placing their advert, be grateful that there are more experienced / professional sellers here who can point out the error of their ways.

Still confused :confused:

Cheers,

John

nobbylon
11-13-2016, 23:00
If you ruin someone's ad by drawing attention or leaving comment that is not asked for then you should have to pay for that ad.
It's the sellers choice and all you do gooders should mind your own business.
Seriously, were you all library monitors or school prefects?
After this I seriously doubt he's got any chance of selling those items here so the OP should refund his ad fee for interfering.
If you are not buying an advertised item then the price or condition is irrelevant and has nothing to do with you.

John Lawrence
11-14-2016, 04:30
Couldn't agree more with nobbylon's post above.

Basically, I just feel that people should be able to place adverts here without having them picked to pieces, or given unsolicited advice and tips from those that profess to have more knowledge of the item they are selling, market etc.

Cheers,

John

Paul T.
11-14-2016, 05:32
Exactly, too many advert assasins here.

As for limiting people with x amount of posts to list items for sale, I can't see it as it's revenue for site owner.

I do think that prices are expected to be lower here than anywhere else.

I respectfully disagree.

Rangefinderforum is, unlike eBay, a community. If I see a dodgy item on eBay, I think caveat emptor. But with rff, if I see a dodgy ad, I do feel more affronted. Doing a passive-aggressive post, rather like that of the OP, is an action I sympathise with!

I have had people post on my ads to say something looks good, and I've done the same with items for sale. I full understand that the converse is not allowed - people pay for their ads. That doesn't stop me wanting to point out when something is dodgy. It's my love of my fellow man.

Pherdinand
11-14-2016, 07:25
Reading the Classifieds Guidelines (link (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost-classifieds/index.php?cat=1) here, scroll down the page to the guidelines), the only guideline I can see that concerns comments is:

13) DO NOT place negative comments about ads or auctions. Sellers are free to place their ads. Buyers are free to buy, or not buy. There is no need for animosity.

indeed. and this doesn't make it a less dump policy.

"Obviously wrong" and "responsibility of the buyer" are only obvious to some people, with the correct experience.
If my mom wants to buy a leica on these classifieds to make me a present, welll she won't be able to spot the differences between photos and description, and shw WILL trust the description better than a few small photos.
Is it OK to fool my mom and conclude it's her fault?

Pherdinand
11-14-2016, 07:45
«Sola scriptura (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura)», so to say? ;)
I'm really mesmerized whether this thread might be supposed to identify very clearly the participants' individual political/religious stances ;)
haha
not sure what my own politica/religious stance is, though, so if you figured it out tell me, pls

GarageBoy
11-14-2016, 08:30
I always read between the lines of sales ads anyways

Why is it so hard to run a camera through a function test. Been burned with wrinkled shutters, Minolta XDs where meters don't work, undisclosed cleaning marks on "mint" glass...

Just be honest

Mint, excited, vg, ugly used to all mean something before online ads and photos

mpaniagua
11-14-2016, 08:58
Still can't see what all the fuss is about.

Why does it matter to so many people what price a seller wants to sell their item at?

I don't feel the need or urge to go round the local used car lots telling the dealers the cars they have for sale are overpriced, not described properly - or give them advice on how best to sell them.

Cheers,

John

Agree. Dont like it, dont buy it. Also, I dont think the ad was made on a misleading way (he put some pretty clear photos, showing the item condition), probably just innacurate, but I think most people could tell that and dont get offense or think the seller was trying to scam them.

Regars

Marcelo

johannielscom
11-14-2016, 10:08
This thread must have been the reason for nobody posting anything in the classifieds last weekend.

It was a boring 72 hrs.

nobbylon
11-14-2016, 12:12
I respectfully disagree.

Rangefinderforum is, unlike eBay, a community. If I see a dodgy item on eBay, I think caveat emptor. But with rff, if I see a dodgy ad, I do feel more affronted. Doing a passive-aggressive post, rather like that of the OP, is an action I sympathise with!

I have had people post on my ads to say something looks good, and I've done the same with items for sale. I full understand that the converse is not allowed - people pay for their ads. That doesn't stop me wanting to point out when something is dodgy. It's my love of my fellow man.

feel free to post nice things but if you jeopardise sales from my ads then you should pay for them. I don't mess with your business so don't mess with mine and to be honest Stephen should have stamped on this at first light. If this is the way things are going here it's worse than ebay because it's a bunch of do gooders trying to set prices that they want to pay. Feel free to trade and buy from each other at prices you feel comfortable paying but don't try to manipulate or set prices. The contract is between buyer and seller or vice versa and NOT nosey or interfering 3rd party want to be ad police.

CameraQuest
11-14-2016, 19:18
Reading the Classifieds Guidelines (link (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost-classifieds/index.php?cat=1) here, scroll down the page to the guidelines), the only guideline I can see that concerns comments is:

13) DO NOT place negative comments about ads or auctions. Sellers are free to place their ads. Buyers are free to buy, or not buy. There is no need for animosity.

Exactly. Sellers must have a safe stress free place to sell.

Buy or not, that is your choice if you are reading the ad.

What if that same seller is put off by your comments and you miss the that prize you were looking for
because next time they have sold it elsewhere?

Without sellers, there are no classified ads. Be nice to them.

At the same time, for those who have not bothered to read the RFF classifieds guidelines, please do so.

There are 15 Classified Guidelines below the classified thumbnails.
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost-classifieds/index.php?cat=1

Stephen

jaapv
11-15-2016, 01:41
As I said, if you think an ad is misleading or even fraudulent, notify a moderator.
In general, on fora, there are moderators to handle the problems and running of the forum. It is always a bad idea for members to play police and judge by themselves. There is no need for vigilantes

Paul T.
11-15-2016, 02:12
I don't mess with your business so don't mess with mine and to be honest Stephen should have stamped on this at first light. If this is the way things are going here it's worse than ebay because it's a bunch of do gooders....

Interesting post. At no point did I endorse adding negative comments to people's ads, rather I mentioned that I felt loyalty to the community, and have often posted positive comments on ads.

I'll make sure I don't post positive comments on your classifieds, as requested. :)

enasniearth
11-15-2016, 04:21
Thank you all for your contributions and comments. Some I did find useful and I implemented many suggestions to clarify a few fine points. I do remember the time when I wanted to rekindle my rangefinder experience. While I started out photography with a Russian made Leica copy, but for many decades I became an SRL and later a DSRL user. However about six years ago I bought my M9. Before I did, I was surfing many Leica forum to educate myself. I admit that I am more of a consumer of forums rather than contributor. Nevertheless I bought my first Leica as a kit (it was the M8.2 with a 28mm Summicron.) I sold the camera and kept the lens. I still have it. Leica also sells from time to time kits. So I am convinced there is a market for it. Perhaps not like you Leicaphyle folks, but there are people who would like to pick up a complete kit and start experimenting. This group is my target market.
It is somewhat sad that you people do not make room for these newbies. Many of you sound like some uber elite expert, who cannot tolerate other people with less knowledge than you claim to have. According to you (at least that what sounds like) people who cannot identify any Leica product by it’s serial number, including the color, the year when it was produced and the chief designer, should not share the planet with you. They just sucking the air from the worthy.
However I am a big boy, and as long as things do not get personal, I can take it. If I get bruised I will remember to list myself as BGN and nothing above. Thank you all again for the experience and for taking the time and giving me a good lesson.

I joined here after looking at the forum many times .
Only joined to post an ad for a tower camera , 9 years later still here .
Everyone has that first ad with 0 feedback
Welcome .
The photos in your ad are good enough for potential buyers to make a decision , and the description notes the shutter actuations .
With Leica people I've found the expectations of the description to be very high .

Pherdinand
11-15-2016, 08:49
I suggest: take this test https://www.politicalcompass.org/test/en ;)

just next to gandhi, LOL

nobbylon
11-15-2016, 11:51
Interesting post. At no point did I endorse adding negative comments to people's ads, rather I mentioned that I felt loyalty to the community, and have often posted positive comments on ads.

I'll make sure I don't post positive comments on your classifieds, as requested. :)

No and I didn't say you did but what you did do is sympathise with the OP's passive aggresive destructive posting on someone elses ad!
I'm also all for encouraging other sellers and endorsing other good sellers I know and have had dealings with.
The moderators to my mind should delete ANY post that threatens a sellers ad by way of price or condition critisism. The seller is responsible for those and by paying for an ad is entitled to a fair crack at a sale without having to deal with the 'experts' or price police.

Huss
11-15-2016, 12:24
No and I didn't say you did but what you did do is sympathise with the OP's passive aggresive destructive posting on someone elses ad!
I'm also all for encouraging other sellers and endorsing other good sellers I know and have had dealings with.
The moderators to my mind should delete ANY post that threatens a sellers ad by way of price or condition critisism. The seller is responsible for those and by paying for an ad is entitled to a fair crack at a sale without having to deal with the 'experts' or price police.

So the sense of community disappears in the Classifieds section? Then it is a free for all as long as the seller has paid his fee?

Here's the deal. The seller, previously unknown to us, and who only knew of this thread because he was directed to it by someone else who commented directly on his ad, placed an ad for a beat up camera that was $2000 more than the current going rate. The original text stated that it was in Mint condition, and all knowledgeable experts would agree with him. That text has since been removed, thanks to this thread, which I think is a good thing.
While the 'experts' among us know about correct pricing and condition, we also have newbies who have joined this site, who may not know much about condition and pricing but feel because they are now part of our community that this would be a trusted place to buy (and sell) items.
Because we would take care of them, as we are meant to be a community.

If that's not the case then this is just another place on the web where everyone is just out for themselves. We don't need that here, we have ebay for that!

nobbylon
11-15-2016, 13:16
whichever way you spin it Huss, you interfered with someone else's ad. It's really that simple and even having been told by the site owner to read the rules, you, and others are choosing to try and make your own. I don't care one jot how much others decide to charge for their 'for sale' items. If I'm in the market I do my own homework but you and some others have decided to play expert and educate both buyers and sellers. I personally think you should show some humility, admit you were wrong and refund the ad you ruined.
I don't need favours or education on pricing from you or anyone else. I decide on my items value and also what I wish to pay for something.
Stephen has already told you where to look so what's the difficulty?
You're banging on about community but also trying to tell others how to sell their gear. The point is obviously lost on you and some. I've said my piece and it's now up to the mods to instruct and educate you what the rules of this community are.

splitimageview
11-15-2016, 14:27
It's rather unfortunate this thread has deteriorated.

There is value (from multiple viewpoints) in these sorts of discussions but only if they proceed in a friendly manner.

There are ways to present one's position while remaining civil.

nobbylon
11-15-2016, 14:41
It's rather unfortunate this thread has deteriorated.

There is value (from multiple viewpoints) in these sorts of discussions but only if they proceed in a friendly manner.

There are ways to present one's position while remaining civil.

Indeed and trying to impose ones will against others by virtue of post count or self professed expertise is not one of them.
The rules are quite clear and although it was not done directly in the sellers ad, the defamatory post left no one in any doubt as to which ad was being spoken about.
I believe that this was not nice behaviour and actually goes against the community spirit that is been harped on about by some members.
It deteriorated the minute someones paid ad was torn apart by interference.

giganova
11-15-2016, 14:53
When I posted an ad, it said that the ad is "pending approval". Doesn't this imply that a mod is reading an ad before it is posted? If there are classifieds with misleading item descriptions or otherwise dubious classifieds (I am not implying that this one was), aren't these caught during the approval? The number of classifieds is so low that I this could easily be done.

nobbylon
11-15-2016, 14:56
When I posted an ad, it said that the ad is "pending approval". Doesn't this imply that a mod is reading an ad before it is posted? If there are classifieds with misleading item descriptions or otherwise dubious classifieds (I am not implying that this one was), aren't these caught during the approval? The number of classifieds is so low that I this could easily be done.

I always thought 'pending approval' meant waiting for payment to clear!

CameraQuest
11-15-2016, 15:08
When I posted an ad, it said that the ad is "pending approval". Doesn't this imply that a mod is reading an ad before it is posted? If there are classifieds with misleading item descriptions or otherwise dubious classifieds (I am not implying that this one was), aren't these caught during the approval? The number of classifieds is so low that I this could easily be done.

Pending Approval is the default software terminology for making sure payment has been processed.

Mods do not inspect ads before the ads are posted. The software does not even allow that.

Stephen

CameraQuest
11-15-2016, 17:14
This thread has gone south. It is now closed.

RFF classified guidelines were in place before most of the posters in this thread ever joined RFF.

Those guidelines have worked well over the years with a minimum of problems.

Mods will step in if need be, their judgement. Otherwise its up to the buyers and sellers to buy and sell intelligently.

Thank you all for being concerned about making RFF a better site.
Its inevitable however that not everyone will agree.

Best,
Stephen