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jsrockit
06-16-2016, 06:57
Hmmm....

http://photorumors.com/2016/06/16/rumors-new-m-mount-camera-with-ccd-sensor-to-be-announced-soon/

fenixv8
06-16-2016, 07:01
This would be super cool!!!

FrozenInTime
06-16-2016, 07:06
The source is here https://prosophos.com/2016/06/15/ccd-announcement-coming-soon/

I wonder if 'Unique Shape' refers to the sensor rather than the body - square or panoramic ( SWC like or Xpan like ? )

Calzone
06-16-2016, 07:21
For me I'm hoping that perhaps the unique shape is a taller M-body to shoot the square with a 36x36 mm sensor. More than 24 MP by 33% equals almost 32 MP.

So what if the corners might not be perfect wide open. Hoping that stopping down to F5.6 makes for a great landscape camera though.

Also know I love the CCD rendering (mucho midrange) and I seldom shoot over 800 ISO.

Cal

lynnb
06-16-2016, 07:25
Good news if it eventuates. I hope they get the handling and the colour right - I wonder also who'd be supplying the CCD, and what architecture (full frame or interline transfer)? There wouldn't be many suppliers of this sort of chip. One is onsemi.com (http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/parametrics.do) - does anyone know of other contenders?

Edit: maybe Dalsa (https://www.teledynedalsa.com/imaging/products/sensors/area-scan/FTF6040C/)..

jsrockit
06-16-2016, 07:41
I was thinking http://konost.com/ at first, but it's not supposed to have a CCD.

mervynyan
06-16-2016, 07:44
probably voigtlander more than zeiss

Ko.Fe.
06-16-2016, 08:00
I'll be happy if it is going to be Cosina-Epson reincarnation with not so old sensor and reasonable (not Leica) price.

brennanphotoguy
06-16-2016, 08:03
I'm hoping it turns out to be some sort of Epson. That would be amazing. And my PayPal credit would be in danger. My first thought though was that Konost camera or the weird Contax renderings that were circling social media for a while but those would all have to be CMOS.

Out to Lunch
06-16-2016, 09:11
Same here. I still love to shoot with the Epson R-D1. Great if a reincarnation of this camera would hit the market. As the Head Bartender has said, the Epson R-D1 series went under after Cosina/Epson failed to create a world-wide after-service network so let's hope that they'll get it right this time around.

rscheffler
06-16-2016, 09:12
Full frame, or not?

ON Semi has a ~28MP "35mm" CCD (http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=KAI-29050) in its catalog, left over from the Kodak/TrueSense days.

They also have APS-H options, though none greater than 24MP are CCD.

Would this new camera interest me? It will depend greatly on the feature set. For me, ergonomics, usability, responsiveness are as relevant to my needs as overall image quality, particularly minute CCD vs. CMOS differences, if any. Yeah, I'm in the camp that doesn't believe the differences are substantial and therefore am not on the CCD revival bandwagon.

jsrockit
06-16-2016, 09:22
I highly doubt it'll be Voigtlander or Epson... we would have heard something else by now I would think. Plus, the unique shape thing wouldn't make sense for them.

Ken Ford
06-16-2016, 09:30
M mount Sigma sdQ? (Ducks)

nukecoke
06-16-2016, 09:38
Digital Zenit. :D

raid
06-16-2016, 09:41
Secret Leica camera?

Calzone
06-16-2016, 09:57
Secret Leica camera?

Raid,

See my post above. A digital M-body but slightly taller to shoot the square.

Cal

Godfrey
06-16-2016, 10:20
I'll be interested to see what if anything appears out of this rumor. All of which is rooted, at present, in Peter "Prosophos" website and nowhere else. Peter is an avowed acolyte of the "CCD is the only true wonderful sensor" universe.

It's good to have a hobby, I guess. I'd rather make photographs. ;-)

G

jsrockit
06-16-2016, 10:23
Peter is an avowed acolyte of the "CCD is the only true wonderful sensor" universe.

Thanks for the info... diminishes the rumor a bit.

Calzone
06-16-2016, 10:24
I'll be interested to see what if anything appears out of this rumor. All of which is rooted, at present, in Peter "Prosophos" website and nowhere else. Peter is an avowed acolyte of the "CCD is the only true wonderful sensor" universe.

It's good to have a hobby, I guess. I'd rather make photographs. ;-)

G

Godfrey,

It is funny how rumors, even crazy ones, become true. Can't think of one rumor on this forum that didn't eventually become true. LOL.

I remember about 4 years ago when the rumor started that Leica was going to produce a monochrome camera. LOL. One poster stated that it was "stupid." LOL.

Cal

Godfrey
06-16-2016, 10:46
It is funny how rumors, even crazy ones, become true. Can't think of one rumor on this forum that didn't eventually become true. LOL.

I remember about 4 years ago when the rumor started that Leica was going to produce a monochrome camera. LOL. One poster stated that it was "stupid." LOL.

As I said, "I'll be interested to see what if anything appears out of this rumor. ..."

Peter's been singing the praises of CCD sensors and condemning CMOS sensors for years. He started a petition to get Leica owners signed up and demanding a CCD sensor from Leica since the day the M typ 240 was announced. As far as I can tell from doing searches around the internet, all subsequent reports of this rumor stem from the single posting on his "Prosophos" blog site.

So ... I have no issue with a new CCD camera that can take Leica M lenses. I look forward to seeing what comes out of the rumor, if anything. But I won't hold my breath while waiting.

In 1960, no one thought we could land a man on the Moon either. It did happen, but it took a bit of work and some hairy politics to get there, if you recall. :)

G

stompyq
06-16-2016, 10:59
If this is true, why is it a CCD sensor? No live view, high power consumption and poor high ISO. I'am not even touching on the lack of video. How will they market something like that to the mainstream?

aizan
06-16-2016, 11:14
the way they phrased it, it looks like they're talking about the form factor being a unique shape, not the sensor's aspect ratio.

what could it be...

i hope it's a thin rectangular block for the sensor, evf, and a tilting lcd, with a rotating control grip with battery stuck onto the side like the rolleiflex hy6. that would be excellent.

Calzone
06-16-2016, 11:17
If this is true, why is it a CCD sensor? No live view, high power consumption and poor high ISO. I'am not even touching on the lack of video. How will they market something like that to the mainstream?

Pro-Mone,

All you say is true and valid. CCD is kinda specialized and old, meaning romantic at this point. This is coming from someone who loves his Monochrom.

Cal

Calzone
06-16-2016, 11:26
As I said, "I'll be interested to see what if anything appears out of this rumor. ..."

Peter's been singing the praises of CCD sensors and condemning CMOS sensors for years. He started a petition to get Leica owners signed up and demanding a CCD sensor from Leica since the day the M typ 240 was announced. As far as I can tell from doing searches around the internet, all subsequent reports of this rumor stem from the single posting on his "Prosophos" blog site.

So ... I have no issue with a new CCD camera that can take Leica M lenses. I look forward to seeing what comes out of the rumor, if anything. But I won't hold my breath while waiting.

In 1960, no one thought we could land a man on the Moon either. It did happen, but it took a bit of work and some hairy politics to get there, if you recall. :)

G

Godfrey,

This thread has a lot of entertainment value. LOL. Please do not hold back any smut. LOL.

BTW I probably am the person responsible for suggesting a 36x36 sensor on a slightly taller M-body. Anyway Peter might not be the only dreamer, and perhaps he is not alone on being delusional. LOL.

Funny thing is that the Monochrom was and is my dream camera.

Delusion number two is a monochrome version of the Leica SL. How delusional am I. LOL. Anyways at least my delusional suggestions borrow a lot of the tooling and development costs, and to me it is kinda like selling the Brooklyn Bridge twice. Although perhaps delusional my hopes do make some business sense.

Cal

raid
06-16-2016, 11:39
Raid,

See my post above. A digital M-body but slightly taller to shoot the square.

Cal

I have seen all posts, Cal. Can't you take a joke!

Calzone
06-16-2016, 11:42
I have seen all posts, Cal. Can't you take a joke!

Raid,

Sorry for any offense.

I did not read your post in a joking manner.

Much respect.

Cal

Huss
06-16-2016, 11:50
I'll be interested to see what if anything appears out of this rumor. All of which is rooted, at present, in Peter "Prosophos" website and nowhere else. Peter is an avowed acolyte of the "CCD is the only true wonderful sensor" universe.

It's good to have a hobby, I guess. I'd rather make photographs. ;-)

G


Peter takes very nice photos!

:)

To be honest, the Leica M-D is now the perfect Leica for me so a digital Zeiss Ikon like that i.e. 1/2 to 1/3 of the price!, would be perfect.

jsrockit
06-16-2016, 11:50
If this is true, why is it a CCD sensor? No live view, high power consumption and poor high ISO. I'am not even touching on the lack of video. How will they market something like that to the mainstream?

It won't be a mainstream camera... M mount cameras generally aren't.

j.scooter
06-16-2016, 11:57
M mount Sigma sdQ? (Ducks)

That's my guess too.
Sigma is the king of "unique shapes" :)

YYV_146
06-16-2016, 12:25
That's my guess too.
Sigma is the king of "unique shapes" :)

If this is indeed Sigma, how would the focusing work with a CCD body? I really can't see them jumping in the digital rangefinder game. Most likely this is still Leica, perhaps in complement to an M240 successor proper.

That said, a wider format CCD m body would still be pretty cool. People here mention 1:1 (36x36 is too large for the imaging circle, I imagine something like 32:32 or 30:30), but I would really like to see 16:9 or even 2:1.

Ken Ford
06-16-2016, 12:45
If this is indeed Sigma, how would the focusing work with a CCD body? I really can't see them jumping in the digital rangefinder game. Most likely this is still Leica, perhaps in complement to an M240 successor proper.

That said, a wider format CCD m body would still be pretty cool. People here mention 1:1 (36x36 is too large for the imaging circle, I imagine something like 32:32 or 30:30), but I would really like to see 16:9 or even 2:1.

With a built-in laser rangefinder? Not recommended for use in war zones, of course...

Godfrey
06-16-2016, 13:39
Peter takes very nice photos!

:)

To be honest, the Leica M-D is now the perfect Leica for me so a digital Zeiss Ikon like that i.e. 1/2 to 1/3 of the price!, would be perfect.

He does, I agree. That doesn't mean he isn't a bit obsessive about CCD vs CMOS.

I'm happy with my M-P, and will be even happier if I acquire an M-D. It's a "nice to have", not a "must have" like the SL.

G

bobby_novatron
06-16-2016, 15:34
No one has said it yet, so I'll be the first: digital Zorki for the win!

flavio81
06-16-2016, 16:04
Most of my digital cameras were CCD cameras: Nikon D1X, Olympus E500, Kodak Pro DCS SLR/N, but I thought those CCD times were over. Yes, i liked the colors those cameras gave me, but I guess you can get just as good results with CMOS sensors... What is the technical basis for claiming a CCD sensor would be better? I would like to know.

If i had it my way, i would have a medium format digital camera where the sensor is a big Image Orthicon tube... Someone has to build this someday ;)

raid
06-16-2016, 16:04
No problem, Cal.

Raid

Raid,

Sorry for any offense.

I did not read your post in a joking manner.

Much respect.

Cal

Fotobot
06-16-2016, 19:39
Whatever it is, it will be exquisitely beautiful. And I won't be able to afford it.

lynnb
06-16-2016, 21:50
Holga discontinued their film cameras.. now it makes sense, they saw the light - a digital Holga is forthcoming!

YouAreHere
06-16-2016, 22:02
Presumably any new camera these days has wifi so won't there be a registration entry on Taiwan's NCC site?

Keith
06-16-2016, 22:05
I'm fascinated why anyone would do this ... it doesn't seem that logical to me. Leica has the market tied up like it or not and companies like Zeiss and Cosina have shown little interest in what would only ever be a limited customer base.

I do hope they prove me wrong though! :)

YYV_146
06-16-2016, 22:47
I'm fascinated why anyone would do this ... it doesn't seem that logical to me. Leica has the market tied up like it or not and companies like Zeiss and Cosina have shown little interest in what would only ever be a limited customer base.

I do hope they prove me wrong though! :)

Not necessarily. Zeiss probably still has some skin in the game (35mm F1.4 ZM) and one would think that the collaboration with Sony has at least conferred some know-how about digital bodies.

Given that this rumor is true, however, the only company I can see making this move is Leica itself. Here are the reasons:

- The only companies that might dabble in M-mount as of 2016 are Leica, Voigtlander, Zeiss and Ricoh. Sigma is unlikely since they've never made M lenses or accessories.
- Zeiss could make a digital Ikon but I very much doubt they would go with a special-order sensor on the first go. Wouldn't it be much saner to go with a tried-and-test solution (older Sony sensor with custom cover glass)?
- CV can't be ruled out but it seems that they're generally less quiet and go with the prototype-to-gauge market approach. People might point to the RD1 but it has been eleven years since that. Their main focus seems to be on E-mount these days.
- Ricoh is probably the second most likely. It would be weird though, since the original GXR was by no means a financial success. But if any of the big players were to do something quirky and cool, it would be Ricoh/Pentax. They also have access to current-gen Sony sensors - and it would be a lot cheaper to just shoehorn one of those into an RF-style camera. Speaking of which, I would love a 36MP digital M...
- Finally, Leica. Can charge enough for boutique chips and sell enough bodies for 10,000-unit batches. Has functional RF solution and on its third major iteration. Current platform close to EOL (meaning new sales slow since there are so many used copies out there). And just recently proved that it can still do really weird things and make money out of it (M-D). A 1:1/wide format M? Why not?

FrozenInTime
06-16-2016, 23:46
Outside chance - Hasselblad, having seen the error of their ways, commission a Xpan Digital.

sevo
06-17-2016, 00:28
- The only companies that might dabble in M-mount as of 2016 are Leica, Voigtlander, Zeiss and Ricoh. Sigma is unlikely since they've never made M lenses or accessories.

I agree.


- Zeiss could make a digital Ikon (...)
- CV can't be ruled out (...)


If Zeiss are in the game it would be by way of CV - Zeiss haven't been dabbling in small format by themselves since the early seventies, and CV have been their most recent partner/licensee for film only gear. But given that Zeiss are affiliated with Sony where digital is concerned, they will have other fish to fry...


- Ricoh is probably the second most likely.


Well, they just released a FF K mount. Would they segment their own market at that moment?



- Finally, Leica. (...) Why not?

Well, Leica will know best that their lenses won't fill much beyond 24x36 on a high-resolution sensor. And they will hardly introduce a new series of "wide coverage M mount lenses" - Leica are too smart to overload that old mount that way, when they did not re-use the M mount for any of their other recent systems either (where it would not even have broken the coverage).

My guess is that those guys with that never progressing CAD study for a M-mount "digital rangefinder" have determined that they need some extra feature like a custom format to gain some fresh visibility among potential investors.

YYV_146
06-17-2016, 01:19
I agree.



If Zeiss are in the game it would be by way of CV - Zeiss haven't been dabbling in small format by themselves since the early seventies, and CV have been their most recent partner/licensee for film only gear. But given that Zeiss are affiliated with Sony where digital is concerned, they will have other fish to fry...



Well, they just released a FF K mount. Would they segment their own market at that moment?




Well, Leica will know best that their lenses won't fill much beyond 24x36 on a high-resolution sensor. And they will hardly introduce a new series of "wide coverage M mount lenses" - Leica are too smart to overload that old mount that way, when they did not re-use the M mount for any of their other recent systems either (where it would not even have broken the coverage).

My guess is that those guys with that never progressing CAD study for a M-mount "digital rangefinder" have determined that they need some extra feature like a custom format to gain some fresh visibility among potential investors.

Ricoh doesn't have a market there since it's been ~20 years since they released an M lens. But maybe they'd care to dust off the GXR designs and released another, more expensive body. Leica users being able to tolerate higher prices for the M experience is a well-known fact...

As for Leica, the original S (the one that had to be tethered at all times) had a 36x36 CCD that took R lenses. A 30x30 sensor with, say, 32 or 28mp won't significantly tax older designs, while maintaining that wow factor that drives buyers. They could also use a wider sensor, say 40x20, but that sounds less plausible the more I think about it.

I say Leica because *if* this is actual hardware, then they will have to go with a custom solution - short of medium format, there isn't a non 3:2 CCD for photography out there. That pretty much means starting at 5,000 or 10,000 units in a single shipment.

brennanphotoguy
06-17-2016, 05:44
Wasn't Hasselblad supposed to release some special new camera? I wonder if it's them/Fuji?

Larry Cloetta
06-17-2016, 05:53
Contax! That's what I am going with. Zeiss had leased the exclusive rights to the Contax name to Kyocera decades ago, and it was in limbo after Kyocera stopped making cameras. But the lease ran out in 2010, giving Zeiss the rights to the name again, so they can either use it themselves on a camera, or lease it out again.
So, I'm going with the forward thinking people at Cosina, who can obviously make camera bodies, and have those production capabilities lying fallow, and who have a history of being unafraid of making niche products (new lenses for Contax rf mount!) leasing the name from Zeiss this time around and resurrecting the Contax as an upscale, niche brand with a CCD sensor (which some people actually prefer). Which is why Cosina stopped making film bodies recently. Why would anyone buy this body, other than the CCD sensor? If they put a Contax Yashica mount on it, there would be a ready made market of everyone who already has a stock of those lenses. I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

That's the idle conjecture on my part.
Very idle.
Makes sense to me, or at least as much sense as anything else.

jsrockit
06-17-2016, 06:21
Holga discontinued their film cameras.. now it makes sense, they saw the light - a digital Holga is forthcoming!

http://www.holgadigital.com/#next-holga-digital

jsrockit
06-17-2016, 06:25
If they put a Contax Yashica mount on it, there would be a ready made market of everyone who already has a stock of those lenses. I'd buy one in a heartbeat.


I can't imagine that's a great way to go for a new camera.

Godfrey
06-17-2016, 06:36
As long as we're talking fantasies ...

A 36x36 mm sensor with 36 Mpixel resolution in a fixed lens body with a top notch 25mm lens along with Live View and a 4.1 Mpixel EVF would be a superb piece of equipment.

Of course, it completely rules out CCD sensors. :rolleyes:

G

Larry Cloetta
06-17-2016, 06:37
I can't imagine that's a great way to go for a new camera.

Okay. There are a lot of people who can't imagine that any new camera with a CCD is a great way to go. And some who think exactly the opposite.

brennanphotoguy
06-17-2016, 06:40
I can't imagine that's a great way to go for a new camera.

I agree. M mount makes more sense because it's a mount that's currently in production. And most people that have C/Y mount lenses would rather adapt them to what they already own than buy into an entirely new system.

brennanphotoguy
06-17-2016, 06:57
Maybe I could be right...

http://photorumors.com/2016/06/17/hasselblad-rumored-to-announce-a-new-camera-next-week/

jsrockit
06-17-2016, 06:58
Okay. There are a lot of people who can't imagine that any new camera with a CCD is a great way to go. And some who think exactly the opposite.

True, I didn't mean to offend.

jsrockit
06-17-2016, 07:00
Maybe I could be right...

http://photorumors.com/2016/06/17/hasselblad-rumored-to-announce-a-new-camera-next-week/

Wow, this would be wonderful... except that I won't be able to feel good about buying it. That said, Hasselblad uses CMOS in its medium format cameras.

willie_901
06-17-2016, 07:01
...

Also know I love the CCD rendering (mucho midrange) and I seldom shoot over 800 ISO.

Cal

Photon counting devices (a.k.a. sensors) can't have a 'mid range'.

A photon is either counted (its energy is converted to electrical charge) or it isn't. When the shutter is open the data collection process is precisely linear.

By contrast, camera data streams (everything that happens to the DC voltage signals emitted by the sensor after the shutter closes) can be non-linear.

In fact different brands, and even different models with in a brand, will have different non-linear responses.

CCD sensor technologies may or may not generate the aesthetically pleasing midrange rendering enjoyed by M9 owners.

brennanphotoguy
06-17-2016, 07:02
They could be coming up with a lower cost option for a different price bracket. Or it's not medium format. Or it's gonna be high end and Fuji will release a "budget" version. Or they could just be collaborating. Who knows.

brennanphotoguy
06-17-2016, 07:28
Scratch that, medium format according to Hasselblad. These two could be unrelated.

YYV_146
06-17-2016, 07:33
Maybe I could be right...

http://photorumors.com/2016/06/17/hasselblad-rumored-to-announce-a-new-camera-next-week/

Wow...this might actually be a digital Xpan in M mount. I would be completely sold on a number of levels :eek:

...and it won't be. Oh well :(

splitimageview
06-17-2016, 07:42
I thought Hasselblad only rebadged Sony cams, marking them up 10x

http://static.bhphoto.com/images/images500x500/1429722350000_1134591.jpg

brennanphotoguy
06-17-2016, 07:49
The have since fired the guy who pushed for that stuff.

Godfrey
06-17-2016, 07:53
As long as we're talking fantasies ...

A 36x36 mm sensor with 36 Mpixel resolution in a fixed lens body with a top notch 25mm lens along with Live View and a 4.1 Mpixel EVF would be a superb piece of equipment.


Maybe I could be right...

http://photorumors.com/2016/06/17/hasselblad-rumored-to-announce-a-new-camera-next-week/

While I have little interest in 24x65 mm format, a 36x36 format fixed lens, wide camera as above would be a natural - a digital Hasselblad SWC. :-)

G

Calzone
06-17-2016, 07:54
Photon counting devices (a.k.a. sensors) can't have a 'mid range'.

A photon is either counted (its energy is converted to electrical charge) or it isn't. When the shutter is open the data collection process is precisely linear.

By contrast, camera data streams (everything that happens to the DC voltage signals emitted by the sensor after the shutter closes) can be non-linear.

In fact different brands, and even different models with in a brand, will have different non-linear responses.

CCD sensor technologies may or may not generate the aesthetically pleasing midrange rendering enjoyed by M9 owners.

Willie,

Thanks for this post. The midrange that I get on my Monochrom is not generic. Thanks for the understanding.

Cal

ferider
06-17-2016, 08:55
Photon counting devices (a.k.a. sensors) can't have a 'mid range'.

A photon is either counted (its energy is converted to electrical charge) or it isn't. When the shutter is open the data collection process is precisely linear.

By contrast, camera data streams (everything that happens to the DC voltage signals emitted by the sensor after the shutter closes) can be non-linear.

In fact different brands, and even different models with in a brand, will have different non-linear responses.

CCD sensor technologies may or may not generate the aesthetically pleasing midrange rendering enjoyed by M9 owners.

That's over-simplified. First, the energy of a photon (or charge generated in the sensor) is inverserly proportional to the wavelength (color). Second, the pixel device has non-linear response, similar or different from this (depending on the technology)

(from http://www.fen-net.de/walter.preiss/e/slomoinf.html)

http://www.fen-net.de/walter.preiss/bilder/sensitivity.gif

Third, depending on how the sensor is designed and how large it is, there might be impact from one pixel's charge to the neighboring one, via substrate coupling, power drop, etc.

In any case, I agree with the general conclusion: whether or not a camera has CCD vs. CMOS sensor, matters much less than what happens to the sensor's signal post AD converter. In these CCD/CMOS sensor discussions, I'm always puzzled that nobody ever talks about downstream devices, and the in-camera image processor in particular. And if you doubt that it has an impact, consider the correction that Leicas do to vignetting, colors, and even distortion (Leica Q).

Roland.

Out to Lunch
06-17-2016, 09:34
the energy of a photon (or charge generated in the sensor) is inverserly proportional to the wavelength (color). Second, the pixel device has non-linear response, similar or different from this (depending on the technology)Hmmm...ah yes, of course... (no idea what ferider is talking about).

rbelyell
06-17-2016, 09:49
Most of my digital cameras were CCD cameras: Nikon D1X, Olympus E500, Kodak Pro DCS SLR/N, but I thought those CCD times were over. Yes, i liked the colors those cameras gave me, but I guess you can get just as good results with CMOS sensors... What is the technical basis for claiming a CCD sensor would be better? I would like to know.

If i had it my way, i would have a medium format digital camera where the sensor is a big Image Orthicon tube... Someone has to build this someday ;)

'technical basis' has nothing to do with a subjective activity. its like me demanding you provide a 'technical basis' for the images you like and dont. if it was all 'tecnically based' there would be way fewer cameras, sensors and lenses. photography is not synonymous with dxo scores. its based on how each of us 'feels' with their equipment and 'sees' their results.

rbelyell
06-17-2016, 09:56
CCD sensor technologies may or may not generate the aesthetically pleasing midrange rendering enjoyed by M9 owners.

i think a more accurate statement is that whether ccd generates a more aesthetically pleasing midrange rendering is wholly subjective and therefore is not susceptible of objective conclusion; ie, by definition, aesthetics are in the eye of the beholder.

Chuck Albertson
06-17-2016, 10:05
If this is true, why is it a CCD sensor? No live view, high power consumption and poor high ISO. I'am not even touching on the lack of video. How will they market something like that to the mainstream?

Why would they market it to the mainstream?

BlackXList
06-17-2016, 14:50
I'm waiting to see them try and pass off the RX2R II with a lump on it as "Medium format" because it's 42mp.

flavio81
06-17-2016, 16:03
'technical basis' has nothing to do with a subjective activity. its like me demanding you provide a 'technical basis' for the images you like and dont. if it was all 'tecnically based' there would be way fewer cameras, sensors and lenses. photography is not synonymous with dxo scores. its based on how each of us 'feels' with their equipment and 'sees' their results.

I hate DxO scores.

I ask for technical basis because, as pointed out by the poster above who underlinded the importance of the processing that happens AFTER the linear value captured by the pixel, the subjective differences that could make you prefer "cameras with CCD sensors" might not have anything to do with the sensor being a CCD one, at all...

Keith
06-17-2016, 16:34
I'm going with the Hasselblad rumour ... :)

rbelyell
06-18-2016, 06:10
i dont have a site, but i just read hasselblad is having an 'announcement' of some kind on june 22, that insider ming thien calls 'at least twice as interesting' as hasselblad claims. we shall see...

FrozenInTime
06-18-2016, 06:33
i dont have a sote, but i just read hasselblad is having an 'announcement' of some kind on june 22, that insider ming thien calls 'at least twice as interesting' as hasselblad claims. we shall see...

Two cameras ? ... and a pile of lenses ?

Rob-F
06-18-2016, 07:49
The source is here https://prosophos.com/2016/06/15/ccd-announcement-coming-soon/

I wonder if 'Unique Shape' refers to the sensor rather than the body - square or panoramic ( SWC like or Xpan like ? )

Outside chance - Hasselblad, having seen the error of their ways, commission a Xpan Digital.

I'm going with the Hasselblad rumour ... :)

I'd like to see a digital XPAN. Since it is supposed to be M-mount, the sensor would have to be of a size M lenses can cover. So I don't think an aspect ratio as extreme as the film XPAN's could work. I do think that a ratio about the same as wide-screen cinema could be accomplished with the present lenses. If we take 70mm Panavision as a model for it, with its 2.21:1 ratio, then a sensor of around 18x40mm (or something close to that) should fit within the image circle of most Leica/Zeiss/Cosina lenses.

I wonder if there would be a sufficient market for such a camera? I'd buy one if it came from a maker like Cosina that could keep the price reasonable.

raid
06-18-2016, 07:50
Maybe, Hasselblad has revamped its ugly duckling of a camera that people did not like?

Out to Lunch
06-18-2016, 08:17
http://petapixel.com/2016/06/17/hasselblad-announce-new-prosumer-camera-next-week-report/

CameraQuest
06-18-2016, 09:58
the Leica S/S2 system was apparently aimed squarely at Hasselblad

Is Hassy now finally returning the favor aiming at the M system?

David Hughes
06-18-2016, 10:04
Hi,

The Leica I'd like to see is a digital version of the mini I, II or 3; or minilux. I can't see it happening somehow. Small P&S's with prime lenses just don't turn up these days but there were several when 2 megapixels was huge and cutting edge.

Regards, David

ramosa
06-18-2016, 10:53
The Leica I'd like to see is a Q 35mm with CCD.

rbelyell
06-18-2016, 12:17
the twin rumors of 'unusual shape' of camera and 'unusual aspect ratio' leads one to believe the 'pano'-wishers amongst us. certainly cant be 3:2 or 4:3, so its either square, which wouldnt require an 'unusual shape' or a pano-cam, which would. however, that leaves me confused about how it could possibly be M mount...

raid
06-18-2016, 13:26
the Leica S/S2 system was apparently aimed squarely at Hasselblad

Is Hassy now finally returning the favor aiming at the M system?

Revenge is sweet! :D

Huss
06-18-2016, 14:39
Two words..
Rollei
Flex

willie_901
06-19-2016, 05:38
Roland,

You are correct, my post was oversimplified.


The basic wavelength - energy dependency is constant for all photo-diodes. So this factor cancels out.
Beyond the unavoidable, constant frequency dependence, the total pinned-diode frequency response depends on may factors but few of these are related to CCD vs CMOS.


But the point remains that image aesthetics of CCD sensors can vary as much as CMOS sensors.

I am not implying the data you shared is inaccurate. I'm only saying each sensor bed (just the pinned-diode bits) has a different response). This is no different than saying the passive color-filter array and IR materials' properties have a profound impact on image aesthetics.

The M monochrome response is not perfectly linear... but Leica considers it to be panchromatic.(link (http://chromasoft.blogspot.com/2012/05/leica-m-monochroms-spectral-sensitivity.html)).

In general, the physical housing of the pinned-diodes does affect frequency response. A lot of research has gone into how to minimize the those variables. Differences in pinned-diode semi-conductor doping chemistry are also relevant.

But in the end both CCDD and CMOS sensor beds just count photons using pinned-diodes. The major differences (ignoring the CFA and IR filter in front of the sensor bed) involves the signal processing after the shutter closes.


More technical informatin is found here (http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/digitalimaging/cmosimagesensors.html) (link) and here (http://ericfossum.com/Publications/Papers/2014%20JEDS%20Review%20of%20the%20PPD.pdf).

lynnb
06-19-2016, 06:55
Please correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't it be possible to produce an M-mount digital XPan that produced 2.40:1 widescreen format using an anamorphic lens, and regular 3:2 with standard M lenses?

All Hasselblad would need to do is
1. produce an anamorphic lens in M mount to give a compressed 2.40:1 image, and
2. provide either in-camera processing or user-installed software to convert the anamorphic image

squirrel$$$bandit
06-19-2016, 07:15
Please correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't it be possible to produce an M-mount digital XPan that produced 2.40:1 widescreen format using an anamorphic lens, and regular 3:2 with standard M lenses?

All Hasselblad would need to do is
1. produce an anamorphic lens in M mount to give a compressed 2.40:1 image, and
2. provide either in-camera processing or user-installed software to convert the anamorphic image

That's a rather compelling and appealing idea!

lynnb
06-19-2016, 07:26
A high megapixel sensor makes this idea feasible without sacrificing image quality!

FrozenInTime
06-19-2016, 08:55
Now Fujifilm are hinting they have something similar in the pipeline:
http://www.fujirumors.com/fujifilm-mirrorless-medium-format-camera-coming/

And Leica are trying to clear stock of the M.240 'In commemoration of 10 years of digital M photography' ( yeah right ! )
http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2016/06/leica-usa-offers-m-camera-trade-up-promotion-with-750-rebate/

ChrisPlatt
06-19-2016, 09:19
Where the hell is Kobayashi-san?

Chris

sevo
06-19-2016, 10:30
Now Fujifilm are hinting they have something similar in the pipeline:


If Fuji is in the game, it might be something more serious than we could expect from Hasselblad alone - now that the partnership with Sony has fallen through, Fuji is the only serious camera body manufacturer that supplies Hasselblad.

CameraQuest
06-19-2016, 11:13
And Leica are trying to clear stock of the M.240 'In commemoration of 10 years of digital M photography' ( yeah right ! )
http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2016/06/leica-usa-offers-m-camera-trade-up-promotion-with-750-rebate/

aka the M240's replacement is coming to Photokina

_lou_
06-20-2016, 04:36
It looks like it could be a new Hasselblad. I got an email from the Hasselblad retailers annoucing a new product to be detailed in a press conference on June 23rd. Maybe they collaborated with Fuji like in the days of the X-Pan, or with Sony like more recently. In any case, don't expect the price tag to be your friend.

jsrockit
06-20-2016, 06:17
It looks like it could be a new Hasselblad. I got an email from the Hasselblad retailers annoucing a new product to be detailed in a press conference on June 23rd. Maybe they collaborated with Fuji like in the days of the X-Pan, or with Sony like more recently. In any case, don't expect the price tag to be your friend.

No, that's a medium format mirrorless camera with a hassy mount.

aizan
06-20-2016, 09:47
the second teaser image:

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/13434905_1013708028683724_8781242480170180277_n.pn g

along with the first, it looks like the camera might be an slr-style body. camera lust is dead, especially since it doesn't look like the sensor will be a unique aspect ratio (square or panoramic). meh. i'm hoping that the second image is of the grip side of the camera like the first, only taken from the back. it could still be a rangefinder-style body.

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Hassleblad-700x700.jpg

Godfrey
06-20-2016, 10:20
I'll be delighted to see the new Hasselblad, whether game changer or not, since it will be the first all-new camera they've produced since the most recent management change.

It likely won't make any difference to my own equipment cabinet, however, since I have pretty much everything I need and a good bit more than I really want already. Time for the gear sale ...

G

jsrockit
06-21-2016, 06:00
More info:

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/prosophos-teasing-launch-new-m-mount-camera-ccd-sensor-not-leica-camera/

http://photorumors.com/2016/06/21/update-on-the-rumored-m-mount-camera-with-ccd-sensor/

Waus
06-21-2016, 08:53
Here it is...
http://photorumors.com/2016/06/21/the-new-hasselblad-x1d-medium-format-mirrorless-camera-leaked-online/

jsrockit
06-21-2016, 09:04
Here it is...
http://photorumors.com/2016/06/21/the-new-hasselblad-x1d-medium-format-mirrorless-camera-leaked-online/

That's not it...

maggieo
06-21-2016, 09:39
I concur- Zeiss and Ricoh are the leading contenders, with Leica coming in a close third.

jsrockit
06-21-2016, 10:25
I concur- Zeiss and Ricoh are the leading contenders, with Leica coming in a close third.

Ricoh? They have the Pentax mount.

eujin
06-21-2016, 10:38
In his latest post on Prosophos, he confirms that it is NOT Leica that's making this camera.

FrozenInTime
06-21-2016, 23:05
'H' = Hexar ?

Konica brand resurrected by Sony ?

CameraQuest
06-24-2016, 11:27
I would love to see a new CCD M mount camera,

but I'm wondering if the name plate reads Vaporware.

Huss
06-24-2016, 13:10
I would love to see a new CCD M mount camera,

but I'm wondering if the name plate reads Vaporware.

Even the Konost seems vaporware-ish..

rfaspen
06-24-2016, 13:37
Oh yeah....the Konost. Totally forgot about that (sarcasm inserted here).

anselwannab
07-23-2016, 15:11
Where the hell is Kobayashi-san?

Chris

Yep. Almost feels like he is limited by a non-compete or something.

xayraa33
07-23-2016, 16:17
In his latest post on Prosophos, he confirms that it is NOT Leica that's making this camera.

Maybe it will be a digital Zorki with an M lens mount ?

sepiareverb
07-23-2016, 17:58
I've long said Sony would be able to do this, they own the Hexar RF designs, they have the FF sensors, but I have always been told that they'd never do such a thing for such a small market share. (from what I hear only about ten people would buy this kind of thing �� ) I'd love a digital Hexar RF, especially one with a CCD.