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View Full Version : Anyone else lost w/Leica digital M cameras names??


Timmyjoe
04-29-2016, 12:05
Leica M cameras used to be easy to follow, M3, M2, M4, M5, M4-P, M6, M6TTL, M7, MP. Even when they first went digital, M8, M8.2, M9, M9-P, ME, Monochrom.

Then came the digital Leica "M", then the "M-P" (not to be confused with the MP) (Typ 240), then the Monochrom (Typ 246)(not to be confused with the Monochrom), then the (Typ 240) Leica 60, then the (Typ 262) and now the (Typ 262) M-D.

I'm like "Whaaaaaaa . . . ???"

Could Leica possibly throw more variations out on the market and make this more confusing?

Best,
-Tim

Mackinaw
04-29-2016, 12:10
I kind of like the new naming system. When I tell fellow Leica users I have an M240, they know exactly what I mean.

Jim B.

Timmyjoe
04-29-2016, 12:13
What is an M240? Is that the original Leica "M" that came out a few years ago, or is that the newer, no front logo Leica "M"?

Mackinaw
04-29-2016, 12:17
Sorry, not going to bite. You want to argue for the sake of arguing. I’m not going down that road.

Jim B.

DwF
04-29-2016, 12:22
I've felt since the announcement of the 240 that the M camera ended with M9. It was the last one to retain the simplicity that was the hallmark of Leica M in the camera world. It has a bright viewfinder and a real rangefinder. While size and weight grew from M6 (this began with TTL model), I found it still manageable with the M8 as my first jump from M2/M6. When the M6TTL was introduced many felt that the size difference coupled with the shutter dial traveling in the opposite direction was startling to say the least.

On the 240, with the addition of live view, a microphone and video capability this camera is IMHO something different. I have nothing against live view and use it in other cameras I own, but for me that is not what an M camera is about.

So the three digit numbers are fine as far as I am concerned.

David

CameraQuest
04-29-2016, 12:26
As I have said before, I really believe the new Leica naming system is a marketing effort
to intentionally confuse Leica fans
in order to encourage them to visit their nearest Leica Store for clarification.

Of course the no questions asked Leica super faithful think my theory is silly.
Maybe they are too busy visiting their local Leica store to think about it.

jsrockit
04-29-2016, 12:29
On the 240, with the addition of live view, a microphone and video capability this camera is IMHO something different. I have nothing against live view and use it in other cameras I own, but for me that is not what an M camera is about.

So the three digit numbers are fine as far as I am concerned.


And I guess all of these cameras were in the works, so M10 just wouldn't work anymore.

Ko.Fe.
04-29-2016, 12:29
It is common question which I have seen as the thread couple of times. One was here for sure.
I'm completely lost. But from practical point of view it is very simple. The only model I have to know is M8. This is the only one from digital Leicas I want and might be able to afford. The knowing of the rest is as practical as navigation by stars. Same reaching distance and same situation with difficult to remember names.

DwF
04-29-2016, 12:52
And I guess all of these cameras were in the works, so M10 just wouldn't work anymore.

To say nothing of M10.1 or is that ME.1? :)

pepeguitarra
04-29-2016, 13:00
Leica M cameras used to be easy to follow, M3, M2, M4, M5, M4-P, M6, M6TTL, M7, MP. Even when they first went digital, M8, M8.2, M9, M9-P, ME, Monochrom.

Then came the digital Leica "M", then the "M-P" (not to be confused with the MP) (Typ 240), then the Monochrom (Typ 246)(not to be confused with the Monochrom), then the (Typ 240) Leica 60, then the (Typ 262) and now the (Typ 262) M-D.

I'm like "Whaaaaaaa . . . ???"

Could Leica possibly throw more variations out on the market and make this more confusing?

Best,
-Tim

Imagine the lack of sales if they all were labeled in an increasing number? This way, it is hard to anyone to know if they have the latest one. I have a catalog for the M1, it does not come with rangefinder, but it could became an M2 if you add one, that is what the catalog says.

css9450
04-29-2016, 13:03
Makes as much sense as Canon or Nikon DSLR nomenclature.

Timmyjoe
04-29-2016, 13:06
It sort of seems like Leica is now creating niche product sub-groups for their overall niche product line.

Timmyjoe
04-29-2016, 13:09
Sorry, not going to bite. You want to argue for the sake of arguing. I’m not going down that road.

Jim B.

Actually I'm not Jim. I thought the original Leica "M" was the 240, but then I see 240 associated with the Leica "M-P".

What was the numbering of the original Leica "M" digital, the first one with the CMOS sensor?

JOCO34
04-29-2016, 15:51
I think that the original name of the Leica M240 is really Leica M Model 240. So other Leica M's with different features would have different model names ie 262, M-P, etc. Still sort of confusing.

dave lackey
04-29-2016, 16:13
Tim,

I posted a rant months ago..., totally confused.

A hell of a way to do marketing IMO. Leica does some pretty stu... uh, strange things. I wish them well but even if I had the money, I would not what to spend it on. It makes me wonder if they have a clue about the future products when they couldn't even come up with an M10 or R10. :eek:Now they are in an alphabet soup with type classifications. What's up with that?

dave lackey
04-29-2016, 16:17
Ha! I love what the Head Bartender said...:-))

Trouble is, there is no Leica store within a hard day's drive of Atlanta!!

nikon_sam
04-29-2016, 18:32
Non-Leica owner here but someone with a question...
Do the numbers 240, 246 or 262 stand for anything...???
Is the 240 the same as the Monochrom...???

Timmyjoe
04-29-2016, 18:45
So is it Leica "M" 240, and Leica "M-P" 240? Are they both "240's" and they're distinguished by one being "M" 240 and one being "M-P" 240? Or was the original CMOS censored Leica "M" called some other number?

peterm1
04-29-2016, 19:10
Yes. (In a word). I was only thinking this last night when looking at this site and thinking "I am lost - oh for the good old days of Leica Ms and Leica Rs and that's it."

http://www.reddotforum.com/content/category/news-and-announcements/

JOCO34
04-29-2016, 19:17
At first I thought that the number 240 referred to the mpixels of the sensor, ie 24 and the body was an M. But then does the 262 have 26.2 megs? Nope. Back to the drawing board from hell.

JOCO34
04-29-2016, 19:25
At first I thought that the number 240 may refere to the number of mpixels of the sensor, ie 24 and the body was an M. But then does the 262 have 26.2 mpixels? Nope. Back to the drawing board from hell. I really think that Leica missed out by not namimg the "M" the M10 and therefore showing the continuing tradtion of classic rangefinder cameras into the Digital age. Afterall the "M" is not revolutionary but just an improvement on the M9. If anything the differences from the M8 to the M9/M240 was a much greater improvement with the full size sensor though I am sure some would say not so much with the use of a CMOS over the older more film like CCD. If Leica stays to form the next iteration of the Rangefinder Digital will be named the M10 similar to the M3-M2-M4.

nasmformyzombie
04-29-2016, 19:38
There sure isn't any conspiracy theory to 'confuse' buyers. Utter nonsense.

Or maybe there is something to it. Was the M film body naming convention all that consistent and easy to understand either?

First M: M3. Named for three frame lines, 50-90-135.
Next: M2. Does this mean second M body, if so why was the first one named M3 and not M1? Does M2 mean only two frame lines? No.
Next: MP, released concurrently with the M2. Why a letter now after the 'M' and not a number? What does 'P' represent?
Next: M1. Why 1? In this case, no rangefinder. Why not call it an M0?
Next: MD. Back to letters; what does the 'D' represent? Apparently, no rangefinder, no viewfinder.
Next: MD-a. Why a small letter 'a'? Why the introduction of a dash after the 'D'?
Next: M4. Four frame lines, 35-50-90-135. Now we're back in business, picking where the M3 left off. But why so much confusion after M3?
Next: M5. Five frame lines? No, four. But the first M with an in camera meter. Why not call it an MM? Or MM5? Or MM1?
Next: M4-2. Canadian version of M4. Why a dash between the '4' and the '2'? Why not use a small letter 'a' after M4 as with the MD-a? OK, M4-2, second version of the M4.
Next: MD-2. Second version of MD. Now consistent with convention of M4 and M4-2. But again what does 'D' represent? Dummy?
Next: M4-P. Back to the inclusion of the mysterious letter 'P'. But the 'P' doesn't directly follow the 'M' any longer.
Next: M6. Follows the M5. OK.
Next: M6TTL: M6 with through-the-lens metering. Starting to make sense again. However, in addition to new metering, the shutter speed selector now turns in the opposite direction of its predecessors. With these changes it's not really an updated M6. Why not call it an M7?
Next: M7. Follows the M6. Leica is starting to get it right, except this camera should have been M8 as the M6TTL should have been M7.
Next: MP. Oh wait, Leica used this over 40 years ago. Reintroduction? No. Apparently 'MP' stands for 'mechanical perfection'. But what about the 1950's MP? Perfection by definition is unsurpassed. But Leica apparently surpassed its first perfection with the new MP.

The more things change the more they stay the same.

Darthfeeble
04-29-2016, 19:47
I would think a knowledge of German would be handy in figuring out the letter meanings. My thought is that it keeps people talking about their camera. Like Stephen said, it's a marketing tool.

Timmyjoe
04-29-2016, 20:14
The final straw for me was an email I got from Leica today. Pushing the new M-D (Typ 262). And I'm thinking, 262, I thought that camera had been out for a while. Then I saw the ISO dial on the back instead of an LCD, and I thought, no, that's that limited edition 60 thing. So I went to the B&H web site to see what this new camera was selling for, and I couldn't find it in the twelve Leica digital cameras they had listed. But there were an awful lot of M bodied digitals, all with these weird "Typ" numbers, and I was like, "How does anyone keep this straight?"

Keith
04-29-2016, 20:28
The only one that matters is the one you have! :D

benmacphoto
04-29-2016, 21:14
I don't think it's hard to understand.
The Typ number is similar to a "class" of features.

You have the M 240, the digital M with a CMOS sensor.
And the M-P 240, which is the "P" version of the M 240.

Then the M 262, stripped down M with no live view or video.
And the new M-D 262, which is a stripped down M with no live view, no video and no LCD.

The M Monochrom 246, monochrome sensor.

These M's all use the same sensor and processor, which is why they are still known first as an M.
But have different features and designs, which is where they get the Typ number.

Archlich
04-29-2016, 21:33
Always remind me of my JOBO system and Gardena equipments. Maybe being counter-intuitive is a German engineering tradition?

Leica All Day
04-29-2016, 21:40
I sometimes joke with my friends when they have "problems" with their SL.... I joke with them and tell them what SL stands for....lol

user237428934
04-29-2016, 23:59
If I have a problem in understanding something I typically try to find some information on the internet. What company are you talking about? LEICA? Let's have a look.....Oh this company has a homepage.

https://en.leica-camera.com

Two clicks and I found this

https://en.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/See-the-bigger-picture

On the bottom you find a nice overview of the products you are discussing. Long live the internet.

:)

David Hughes
04-30-2016, 00:15
Hi,

It's best not to ask about Leica's too much.

I can make sense of M3 (3 frame lines) but why not M3P instead of MP? Then M2 doesn't mean 2 frame lines and so on.

And someone thought it should have been M3P because the M4-P came along...

I've also often wondered why the IIIc wasn't called the IV as it was a new design with a wider body and die cast as well but there you are...

Regards, David

David Hughes
04-30-2016, 00:20
If I have a problem in understanding something I typically try to find some information on the internet. What company are you talking about? LEICA? Let's have a look.....Oh this company has a homepage.

https://en.leica-camera.com

Two clicks and I found this

https://en.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/See-the-bigger-picture

On the bottom you find a nice overview of the products you are discussing. Long live the internet.

:)

Hmmm, it starts like this

"M – as in ‘Messsuchersystem’
‘Messsucher’, the German term for a combined rangefinder and viewfinder, found in every Leica M..."

and then I thought of the M1, MD and MDa...

Regards, David

Brian Atherton
04-30-2016, 00:22
In answer to Tim's question; yes, me!

No doubt it's a marketing tool, but it has failed on me... but then, probably, I'm not Leica's intended target, having been around the block a few times.

To me the current model numbering follows little logical pattern, and has more in common with washing machine designations. :rolleyes:

user237428934
04-30-2016, 00:35
"M – as in ‘Messsuchersystem’
‘Messsucher’, the German term for a combined rangefinder and viewfinder, found in every Leica M..."

and then I thought of the M1, MD and MDa...

Regards, David

If you look back in the M-history, these cameras without rangefinder are sidepaths and accidents that don't define the M. For me the definition of the M is the rangefinder and in this case the marketing fits perfectly to my point of view.

jarski
04-30-2016, 00:47
so, now there are two 262's? :bang:

David Hughes
04-30-2016, 00:58
If you look back in the M-history, these cameras without rangefinder are sidepaths and accidents that don't define the M. For me the definition of the M is the rangefinder and in this case the marketing fits perfectly to my point of view.

Yes, they are for me too but still not logically named. And saying all M are coupled RF's is pointless when some aren't.

In fairness, they are not the only ones to do strange things, there's the Canon 'Kiss' range of cameras, aka 'EOS' and Olympus did the μ-I, μ-II, μ-III and μ-V but no μ-IV. OTOH, they did the OM-1, OM-2, OM-3 and OM-4 which knocks on the head the idea that the figure four is unlucky in Japanese culture. (Or perhaps they thought pro's ignore such things and P&S users are superstitious... )

It's all good fun, isn't it?

Regards, David

user237428934
04-30-2016, 01:05
I'm astonished that people give the the name of the product such an important role.

Once I read a strange argument that the new names make it so hard to find a product on ebay. As if a company chooses a product name with the idea in mind, that it might be easier for people, who can't afford a new product, to find it used on ebay.

user237428934
04-30-2016, 01:21
It's all good fun, isn't it?

Regards, David

It is...........

Pherdinand
04-30-2016, 01:23
It just proves that a company that has great engineers to build stuff uses marketin dumbasses to come up with dumbass names coz that's what they can do...

splitimageview
04-30-2016, 02:20
"What Porsche 911 do you have?"

"I have a 993. What about you?"

"Mine is a 991. One day I plan to pick up and old 964 and restore it, I just love those older 3.6 liter models."

"I have a 997 on order!"

sevo
04-30-2016, 02:34
Back in the days naming was, like in most German companies, engineer driven, what little marketing there was could not root out the internal numbering that had already been in use at all levels (including the management which usually grew out of engineering) for years. Accordingly people have grown to associate products called by type catalogue numbers with good engineering and good value for money (as a consequence of a engineering-over-marketing attitude). But these days every product (and Leica no exception) is utterly marketing driven, with some marketing agents thinking up faux names that sound like the internal development numbers of the past...

user237428934
04-30-2016, 02:35
"What Porsche 911 do you have?"

"I have a 993. What about you?"

"Mine is a 991. One day I plan to pick up and old 964 an restore it, I just love those older 3.6 liter models."

"I have a 997 on order!"

That's a very good example because the numbering scheme of all the 911 models is completely without an order. And you even have product modifications and enhancements within a certain submodel. And even though it is without any logic, all people who are interested in a 911 know exactly what they are talking about. And all the major car selling websites have filter options for the 911 submodels

David Hughes
04-30-2016, 04:15
Hi,

As I see it there's a lot of sense and more sales by being logical. If I have used a model 2 for years then wonder about something more up-to-date I'd look first for a model 4 or 5 (regardless of what we are talking about).

But I might be disappointed and wonder why the 4 is inferior and not think to look for a model 1b which the fool's have named the latest variation...

Having a range of model names for a certain range, then a number for (say) the engine size and letters for the standard of luxury or tuning makes sense for cars and sells them.

Anyway, it's just my 2d worth based on my idea that people ought to encourage sales, fund R&D and Pensions, f'instance.

Regards, David

PS I think Porsche is not a good example as it's a niche market fuelled by enthusiasts and high power salesmen/women.

Ronald M
04-30-2016, 05:04
I am lost. The mix of numbers and alphabet is confusing. Is 240 before or behind MD and by what logic?

Nick R.
04-30-2016, 05:27
..and don't get me started on Leica lens hoods names; you have the FISON and FIZON, and the FIKUS and the FOOKH, the SOOBK and the SOOHN, and the SOOPD and the SOOFM, the IUFOO and the IWKOO, the ITDOO and the HKMOO...and so on and so on.

raid
04-30-2016, 05:31
This is yet another point to ask Oliver Kaltner about when we will be in Wetzlar.
"Why ..."?

Timmyjoe
04-30-2016, 05:47
This is yet another point to ask Oliver Kaltner about when we will be in Wetzlar.
"Why ..."?

Would love to hear what he says.

jarski
04-30-2016, 06:59
Anyway, it's just my 2d worth based on my idea that people ought to encourage sales, fund R&D and Pensions, f'instance.

Worth more than 2d. It's common practice with camera model names to have a letter (D, F)/short name (FM, XPro) and a number. Successing model is usually Mark II ala. Canon, Sony, Pentax, or growing numbers like Nikon, Fuji, Olympus.

Just a name of course, am not having sleepless nights worrying about this, but worth least few raised eyebrows.

View Range
04-30-2016, 07:01
There is a great advantage to the Leitz 5-alpha codes, which date back to Telex communication for orders. Search the Web on OUBIO and you will find exactly what you are looking for. Search on 16466 and you'll have a hopeless mess.

Rob-F
04-30-2016, 07:43
..and don't get me started on Leica lens hoods names; you have the FISON and FIZON, and the FIKUS and the FOOKH, the SOOBK and the SOOHN, and the SOOPD and the SOOFM, the IUFOO and the IWKOO, the ITDOO and the HKMOO...and so on and so on.

You left out my favorite, the IROOA hood! :rolleyes:

splitimageview
04-30-2016, 08:14
PS I think Porsche is not a good example as it's a niche market fuelled by enthusiasts and high power salesmen/women.

And Leica is definitely not a niche market fueled by enthusiasts, very true.

;)

mdarnton
04-30-2016, 14:35
I think it's a mess, and I think they want it to be a mess. I went to something on Leica's site once that claimed it was a "compare" link, and all it went to was more mess. If they wanted to make it clear, they'd make a chart as every other company on the face of the earth seems to be able to do. . . you know, like with columns of features vs models, and check marks. I won't hazard a guess why they don't, but it's such an obvious device in comparison shopping that if they haven't provided it by now, it's either massively incompetent, or intentional. Based on what people have said about them over they years, I vote incompetence, though.

http://www.laptopcomparisonchart.com/acer-laptop-comparison

.

David Hughes
05-02-2016, 01:07
We left out the model 250 which isn't an improvement on the 240 but a pre-war film camera for scientists or reporters.

Now we ought to start a rant or moan about the lens' names as the rumour that the lens' name also gave the aperture size was knocked on the head by the varieties of Elmar (ought to be ƒ/3.5) and the Summar (ought to be ƒ/2) and so on.

Regards, David

Addy101
05-02-2016, 02:29
No, I'm not lost. As somebody else noted, the number is the sensor technology, the letters the kind of camera it is. Easy. If you want to know more, just go to the Leica website for current models.

One thing about comparison websites, somebody gave us a link to a laptop comparison site. Useless. It showed the processors, like i5, but it didn't tell us if it was a 2015 i5-6600k or a 2012 i5-2500....

Cars, processors, cameras, all are the same. It is what it is.

Brian Atherton
05-02-2016, 02:51
Whether Leica’s digital model numbering is intentional or due to marketing incompetence I have no idea.

I just feel discombobulated.

Perhaps with the fast pace of digital rot and new models appearing seemingly overnight, Leica’s illogical numbering simply reflects models which were designated in development to follow each other, some of which were later scrapped and never made it to the public, thereby leaving odd numbering gaps that now bear no progressive relationship to each other.

p.giannakis
05-02-2016, 02:56
I think they should adopt the way Italians name their cars.
"Romeo", "Giulietta", "Fulvia", "Testarossa" etc....

jazzwave
05-02-2016, 05:51
I think Leica has consult to Fengshui expert for new camera name.
Got suggestion from them; Pls avoid M10, M11, M12 , not lucky number.

Then Leica find other number M240 (2+4+0=6)
"THE MOUNTAIN STAR 6 brings lovely harmony luck and is excellent for spreading calm and happiness within the home"


~ron~