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Doug
12-18-2015, 15:46
I would love to own an M246! (Side note about reluctance to walk around with gear worth as much as a car: I might still not own an M246 even if it were *easily* affordable)...I use the quote above only as an introduction to the topic, and intend my question as directed toward RFF members in general, not specifically to the one quoted. :)

Do you feel nervous about carrying expensive gear? This issue is mentioned from time to time, so it appears there are a number of us who share this concern.

What is your feeling about this? Are you inhibited from buying expensive yet affordable gear because of a sense of vulnerability or risk?

MarkoKovacevic
12-18-2015, 16:16
Some may collect cameras, but the cameras I use are meant to be tools. I buy the best gear that's still reasonably priced and superbly built. Whats the point of having a camera if you're not going to push its limits? Still, you need to be smart about it.

JP Owens
12-18-2015, 16:24
Cameras should be used up in the process of shooting photos, not become shopworn by constantly changing hands. I park a $30,000 dollar car in a crowded supermarket shopping lot. Why should I be concerned about carrying around a $7,000 camera?

ww2photog
12-18-2015, 16:32
My years of lusting after the latest greatest anything are long gone. I want something well built that suits my needs, if it's got some brassing, wear marks etc, it just adds to the mojo. I only use vintage equipment and I don't baby anything.

xenohip
12-18-2015, 16:41
You didn't ask me (the one quoted) so I'll refrain from saying too much :~)

But I will say the comment had more to do about feelings regarding the creative process, and less to do about security/risk or financial analyses...

Doug
12-18-2015, 17:38
You didn't ask me (the one quoted) so I'll refrain from saying too much :~)

But I will say the comment had more to do about feelings regarding the creative process, and less to do about security/risk or financial analyses...
Thanks for the quote, and the clarification... I thought it expressed pretty well what others have said along the same lines. Don't feel inhibited to respond, I just didn't want it to look like I was targeting you in this new thread. :)

daveleo
12-18-2015, 17:55
I bought a Leica Digilux-2 when it first came out (2004 I think). Paid about $2000 for it which was by far the most expensive camera I owned up to that point.
Shortly after I got it, it fell off my shoulder onto a concrete sidewalk while we were on vacation.
While I sat on the bench waiting for my heart to settle down, I came up with a slogan I've repeated many times .....
"Never buy a toy you can't afford to throw away". :p

I live by that rule when I'm buying new stuff.

Doug
12-18-2015, 17:55
Sorry to hear that, Dave; there are so many ways to lose gear. I think about dropping it in deep water, for example... it's just gone. Would that risk cause expensive gear to be left in the cupboard?

In addition to anxiety about theft or loss...

Any embarrassment about being seen with expensive gear that some might think marks a dilettante?

CK Dexter Haven
12-18-2015, 18:39
Cameras should be used up in the process of shooting photos, not become shopworn by constantly changing hands. I park a $30,000 dollar car in a crowded supermarket shopping lot. Why should I be concerned about carrying around a $7,000 camera?

That's funny. Never thought about it that way. But, maybe because I'm new to car ownership after 25 years in NYC.

I've always had different feelings about gear value, depending on he specific component. I wasn't comfortable carrying a nikon F6, because the rear screen seemed vulnerable, but it didn't bother me to carry a Canon 5D2 which cost me twice as much. I think the F6 just seemed like more of a risk in comparison to he F100 I had owned just prior. Didn't bother me to carry Leica M7s with a 35 Lux-asph, but it did concern me to carry a canon 85L. Maybe because of the size/weight, and the huge front glass element. I don't think it's really the cost. It's the way it's made and or how cumbersome it is to use. A Hasselblad or my Mamiya Rz, even though they cost less than other cameras I have, I'd be more protective of. But, I'm really careful with gear. I baby my stuff. Or, rather I'm gentle with it. Probably because I respect what went into making it, but more practically because I don't buy any of it 'for life,' and I like being able to resell without losing any money.

Richard G
12-18-2015, 19:48
Cameras should be used up in the process of shooting photos, not become shopworn by constantly changing hands. I park a $30,000 dollar car in a crowded supermarket shopping lot. Why should I be concerned about carrying around a $7,000 camera?

Good analogy. And if you buy a new car and drive it off the salesman's lot you immediately drop the value of second hand or even a new digital Leica and think nothing of it.

Timmyjoe
12-18-2015, 19:56
I was standing in the pouring rain a couple of months ago while covering a football game, my gear covered in Think Tank Hydraphobia covers and plastic garbage bags. Someone asked why I had everything covered and after I got to thinking about it, I realized I had $17,000 worth of equipment out there in the rain. As long as I don't think about it, it doesn't bother me. When I start to think about it, I quickly change the subject.

farlymac
12-18-2015, 19:59
Most of my gear is worth more than I paid for it, but that doesn't stop me from using what I want to when I want to. I got it to do the job. If someone thinks me a snob for the kind of gear I have, that's their problem. And I know that feeling Dave. My first digicam hit the asphalt two weeks after I bought it, but luckily it kept on working. I made sure to use the wrist strap after that.

PF

Mute-on
12-18-2015, 20:02
Cameras should be used up in the process of shooting photos, not become shopworn by constantly changing hands. I park a $30,000 dollar car in a crowded supermarket shopping lot. Why should I be concerned about carrying around a $7,000 camera?

I used exactly this analogy to help a friend in his decision to buy a very expensive watch.

He bought the watch and enjoys the hell out off wearing it every day. This enjoyment overcomes any sense of fear that it could get lost or damaged,
and any self consciousness he may experience.

I say buy it if you can afford it, and for goodness sake, take off the price tag!! :p

Most of all, just use and enjoy it! Life is too short .....

Cheers

J

BillBingham2
12-18-2015, 20:14
I like to think I don't baby my gear, but I do respect it.

I did change systems Leica to Bessa when my kids were younger so perhaps I did.

In High School I used my Nikkormat in the rain many times, lots of plastic bags and a good rain cover and that was my my most expensive camera for almost a decade.

I never worried about my Leicas on the subway or anywhere in NYC, but that might have been because I was a young DINK.

Interesting question.

B2 (;->

Ko.Fe.
12-18-2015, 20:32
I have boat insurance. But it seems no similar insurance for "recreational" use of camera. Only professional use have insurance programs in Canada, it seems.

Pioneer
12-18-2015, 20:48
It is a good question. Around home it never even crosses my mind.

On the road I take a bit more care and keep things either locked up or in my possession.

But, to be honest, t doesn't seem to matter to me whether I am using my 64 Kiev or something much more expensive.

What does matter are the photos. I worry more about the film or the digital files.

Huss
12-18-2015, 21:14
I have boat insurance. But it seems no similar insurance for "recreational" use of camera. Only professional use have insurance programs in Canada, it seems.

In the US you can get it covered under your homeowner's insurance policy. Maybe something like that is offered in Canada?

I wouldn't say I get gear value anxiety, but awareness. My stuff is insured but there are times when you have to be smart and aware of where you are going.
Getting mugged or worse because someone took a shine to your gear is something that can happen in many areas:

http://petapixel.com/2015/08/05/photographers-in-sf-robbed-of-camera-gear-in-broad-daylight-with-pepper-spray/

Tijmendal
12-19-2015, 00:28
I used to have this a lot more than I do know. It might be because I'm much better off than I was two years ago, but now I don't really have a problem carrying my M6/Cron around everywhere, whereas before I would only take them out on 'special' occasions. Now I always have it with me.

David Hughes
12-19-2015, 01:44
Hmmm, if I started valuing my cameras etc by what they cost me, which I don't because I value them for what they'll do, I'd worry that most of the time the film cost more than the camera.

Then someone kindly pointed me to 'Poundland' where I can get an 'Agfa' film and then the film started to cost as much as the camera.

Edit (an hour latr when I'd found what I was looking for), in the Kiev instruction manual on page 27 it says "The camera should be protected from jerks... " That may be a poor choice of words on behalf of the translator but you never know.

Regards, David

PS, and with digital my main worry is dropping the card with several hundred photo's on it, money doesn't come into that worry, either...

bmattock
12-19-2015, 07:52
One of the nice side effects of being cheap. None of my gear cost that much.

Vics
12-19-2015, 08:21
Much as I loved my M3, I must admit I was always nervous that I'd drop it or lose it. I've had to give up shooting film, and now use on old, inexpensive and easily replaceable entry-level DSLR. I've stopped worrying about my camera and now concentrate on trying to make better pictures. (sigh of relief)

jsrockit
12-19-2015, 11:01
When I used a brand new M9 and a $2000 lens, I will admit to being a little anxious in certain neighborhoods. However, you're probably better off with that than a Nikon D4 and a 28-70mm zoom with regards to which camera more people will likely recognize as expensive. The worst I've had is have someone yell "how much is that camera worth?"

Huss
12-19-2015, 12:40
Edit (an hour latr when I'd found what I was looking for), in the Kiev instruction manual on page 27 it says "The camera should be protected from jerks... "

It would be great if u could post an image of that!

Glenn2
12-19-2015, 13:43
When I used a brand new M9 and a $2000 lens, I will admit to being a little in certain neighborhoods. However, you're probably better off with that than a Nikon D4 and a 28-70mm zoom with regards to which camera more people will likely recognize as expensive. The worst I've had is have someone yell "how much is that camera worth?"

I know exactly what you mean, one of reasons I started using inexpensive Barnacks was because I enjoyed wandering off the beaten track in third world countries. Assumed I get mugged for my gear at some point and didn't want the worry of losing something too valuable. Spoke with a local photographer a while back who lost an M Leica at knife point in Mexico, so it does happen.

Would you be comfortable walking alone through places like this with 20 grand worth of camera gear? How about at night....?
A little bit of paranoia is healthy! That's why this is shot with an X100, not an M9.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffgallery/gallery/5960/U5960I1421539323.SEQ.3.jpg

rhl-oregon
12-19-2015, 15:10
Gear anxiety grows from the same root as life anxiety. Considering that many regular posters to this forum are descending the far side of the mountain into the valley of the shadow, it's wise to remember that good kit will usually outlive the photographer, so why not use it with gusto and creative joy rather than in gratuitous fear? Nobody gets out alive. Take care your tools but use them--they're tools.

It's ok to be rational. Don't shoot Hasselblads on skateboards. Don't dress like Blingmeister flaunting your Ralph Gibson Nocti kit around [fill in dodgy city/culture here]. Use your wrist, neck, shoulder strap even when getting out of the car in your own driveway.

I like Glenn's thinkng above, except I'd be packing a GR because it disappears in my hand when I don't want it to attract attention.

goamules
12-19-2015, 15:24
First of all, I don't buy exorbitantly expensive gear. Nor do I drive a Ferrari.

Secondly, what am I afraid of? Someone trying to mug me? One of two things will happen, I'll either let them have my possessions, or if my hormones and heritage kick in, I may go down with guns blazing. Either way, I'll feel good about my reaction.

If you are worrying about cost of your equipment choices, that's telling you something is wrong with your choices.

xenohip
12-19-2015, 15:48
Check out Sam Spencer's "enthusiast's perspective" on the Pentax 645Z over at DPReview for some interesting thoughts that might be related to the question posed here...

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0121577106/medium-well-done-two-takes-on-the-pentax-645z

dogberryjr
12-19-2015, 15:53
Yup. Having an M9, plus at least one lens -- and probably two -- each valued (replacement, anyway) over $1,000, around my neck was too stressful. The worry made me hesitant to take it out as often and lessened my enjoyment. I traded on an X Pro 1 kit and felt much more in my comfort zone. I'll go Leica digital again someday. Someday.

Richard G
12-19-2015, 15:54
A lot of good sense here. Inexpensive gear in obviously risky place is just good sense. I carry a digital Leica with me most days and most places in a working week. No bag or half case. One lens. Have I ever dropped a Leica camera in forty years? Just once, an M5 and C Sonnar from the height of the piano stool. Bent the hood, but otherwise no harm done. Someone else dropped my Monochrom and 50 Summicron onto a carpeted floor from table height. No harm done. Relax.

Huss
12-19-2015, 16:08
Just got back from a shoot in the gritty part of San Pedro. Had a Nikon F6, a Leica M and an assortment of Leica and Zeiss glass. No issues.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention I also had Loki with me. A 150lb German Shepard/Huskie mix...
:)

mdarnton
12-19-2015, 16:42
I got my first Leica in 1968. In the intervening years I've had a camera hanging on my shoulder more days than not, all lthat time. I have never had one stolen and only dropped one once. If we let fear win, we would never do anything. Even if something bad happens tomorrow, I would still consider that I'd won, in the long run.

seakayaker1
12-19-2015, 16:49
Like anything else if you are in an area where they will take your camera they are just as likely to want your phone, wallet, backpack, or anything else you are carrying.

Computers, iPhones/smart phones, other electronic gear and backpacks are the items that students and others around the University of Washington, especially in the evenings and nights, have taken by strong arm robbers and during break-ins. Not a bad neighborhood but does get targeted.

Need to be aware at all times of your surroundings, if a particular area or situation does not feel right then avoid it or leave if you don't feel right.

My nervousness with expensive gear is that I may inadvertently damage by dropping it or by falling down. Not so much of a worry when I was younger but time is moving on ........

ktmrider
12-19-2015, 16:59
Bought an M9 about two years ago and took it on a 90 day trip to Europe in 2014. After a 19 mile hike on the West Highland Way, I had a couple beers at the pub in the small isolated hotel we were in and left it at the bar. The next morning I almost had a coronary when I realized it was not in the room. Went down to lost and found and the lady at the desk kinda smiled and said " Kind of expensive camera isn't it?"

Later in the trip I left it on a table in a restaurant and when I came back to the table (my daughter was at the table when I left for the restroom) the camera was gone. Another coronary but she had taken it with her for her restroom call.

Well, the camera is worth less now but I sure prefer traveling with a film M worth about $1000 for the body, not $4500 or more. Of course, the digital M does many things the film M can't. Guess life always comes down to choices.

Glenn2
12-19-2015, 17:41
It wasn't just losing a camera by getting robbed that bothered me. Before retirement my work was in the field of oceanography and I often took a camera to sea. Having seen what moist salty air could do to equipment in a very short time my best gear stayed home. Photography is my hobby not a job, and rust never sleeps!

This photo was shot using my "beater" camera, a 3f with 3.5cm Summaron from the aft deck of NOAA ship Discoverer. On that trip we went from the equator to Alaska along 170E. Not all days were warm and sunny, some I wouldn't even take the "beater" out due to high winds blowing salt spray.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffgallery/gallery/5960/U5960I1450572158.SEQ.2.jpg

Huss
12-19-2015, 18:18
It wasn't just losing a camera by getting robbed that bothered me. Before retirement my work was in the field of oceanography and I often took a camera to sea. Having seen what moist salty air could do to equipment in a very short time my best gear stayed home. Photography is my hobby not a job, and rust never sleeps!

This photo was shot using my "beater" camera, a 3f with 3.5cm Summaron from the aft deck of NOAA ship Discoverer. On that trip we went from the equator to Alaska along 170E. Not all days were warm and sunny, some I wouldn't even take the "beater" out due to high winds blowing salt spray.

Cool shot Glenn! How come u didnt just get a Nikonos camera? I use them and they are excellent.

uhoh7
12-19-2015, 19:36
I did not get an M9 to gather dust.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/706/23167476904_e092bfb318_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/BienJY)
Crossing (https://flic.kr/p/BienJY) by unoh7 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/), on Flickr

The only time I worry is when it's not with me :)

Emile de Leon
12-19-2015, 21:01
That skier..looks like he's gonna ...mug you...!

Fraser
12-20-2015, 03:45
Everyday when I'm working I have 2 canon 1dx, 24mm 1.4, 50mm 1.2, 135mm 2, 300mm 2.8, m9 35mm summicron and INSURANCE!!!!!!!

jsrockit
12-20-2015, 04:59
That skier..looks like he's gonna ...mug you...!

Hahahahaha... :eek:

goamules
12-20-2015, 05:22
The OPs question, "Are you inhibited from buying expensive yet affordable gear because of a sense of vulnerability or risk?" implied risk to his personal security, not environmental.

So I add one more rule to live by, to the three I first posted. If you are in an area where you feel at risk, you probably need to move on. A mugger is not going to look at your Nicca III-s and say "Let this one go Rocko, it's not a real Leica!" If a bad person sees a camera, watch, or pair of tennis shoes he's not going to stop because they aren't the top models. Likewise, most random thieves don't know what a good camera is anyway, they just see a target in their domain.

Not that any of this is very likely to happen. But the chances increase when you are in risky areas. People don't get mugged at the Westminster Dog Show. They get mugged late at night, outside of bars, concerts, and places where people drink or are naturally agitated. Or where people are extremely desperate. Yes, those places are photogenic.

Out to Lunch
12-20-2015, 06:24
Do you feel nervous about carrying expensive gear?

Not anymore. Some 25 years ago I lost a beloved 35mm Fuji SLR when I was sitting on the deck of a fishing boat in the Strait of Malacca in the Riau archipelago. We encountered bad weather during the monsoon season with 2 to 3 meter high waves and my camera ended-up on the bottom of the sea.

Since then, I have been in much worse areas of the world, including in some countries at war, and carried more expensive equipment but lost nothing so far. This said, I am also very careful...never leaving my bag unattended.

My weakness is in a different area: many years ago, I bought a new Leica M6 Millennium black paint edition camera and it is such a work of art that I am hesitant to use it. Not because of it's value but because of it's inherent beauty. Stupid of course but there we are.

David Hughes
12-21-2015, 02:29
It would be great if u could post an image of that!

Anything to oblige;

https://idrh.smugmug.com/Other/Oddments/i-DzXJrnL/0/XL/Kiev%20Page-XL.jpg

Regards, David

Richard G
12-21-2015, 02:53
Anything to oblige;
Regards, David

It is surprising that just the ever-ready case is enough to stop condensation on the camera when coming in from the cold. Interesting.

sreed2006
12-21-2015, 04:37
What I struggle with is shooting the last rolls of discontinued film.

It has happened over and over. Some really nice films are gone for good. Kodachrome was the most famous. There are many others. Konica VX-100 Super was my favorite C41, and Efke R100 was my favorite black and white (though I still have a few rolls of that left before the final moment of its unexposed existence vanishes).

I mean, standing there holding a camera loaded with what I know is the last roll I will ever have of a particular kind of film - that brings anxiety, and a bit of melancholy. It is not that a thief or accident will take it away - I am the one to determine its fate. That weighs on me.

Just a small drama in the life of a film photographer.

daveleo
12-21-2015, 05:23
It is surprising that just the ever-ready case is enough to stop condensation on the camera when coming in from the cold. Interesting.

Moisture condenses only on the outer surface. Then evaporates as that surface warms up.

willie_901
12-21-2015, 06:19
Insurance with a reasonable deductible is one way to minimize the angst.

In the US home-owners or renters insurance can be augmented to include photography equipment. Besides paying the premiums you need proof of purchase and you need to itemize the items and their purchase cost. For unique items (collectables or even lenses very few people own) you should photograph them and, or have them appraised.

Huss
12-21-2015, 07:46
Anything to oblige;

https://idrh.smugmug.com/Other/Oddments/i-DzXJrnL/0/XL/Kiev%20Page-XL.jpg

Regards, David

Ha! That kind of jerk! I was thinking the more common garden variety lager lout!

jaapv
12-21-2015, 09:08
Moisture condenses only on the outer surface. Then evaporates as that surface warms up.:confused:Why should moisture know the difference between inside our outside? The problem is that in certain conditions the air inside the camera gets moist and condenses on the electronic parts, causing severe corrosion and short circuits. Such a camera is total loss.
In one case an M8 was kept inside a rucksack inside a tent in Greenland during a spell of rain. After the temperature dropped the camera was killed by internal condensation.

Nick R.
12-21-2015, 09:41
The usual problem is that the cold camera brought indoors cools the air around it thereby lowering its dew point and leading to condensation on its cold surface. Fresh, warm air is always available to the uncased camera. When cased, the amount of air available to be cooled is limited, i.e. there is some condensation but not enough to be noticed. The reason you don't see condensation on the case is because it and the air trapped next to the camera form an insulation barrier slowing the transfer of heat to the cold trap (the camera). Now, when an object like a camera is outside at night when the temperature drops, it radiates heat away faster than the surrounding air does causing condensation. That's why you get condensation on cameras and telescopes at night even when they start out at the same temp as the surrounding air.

daveleo
12-21-2015, 17:43
In the event we are talking about, condensation (moisture from warm air condensing to liquid) occurs only on the cold surfaces that are exposed to the warm moist air.
If the warm moist air gets inside the air spaces of the camera, it will also condense on the cold internal surfaces (electronics?).
If the camera has a moisture shield (cover) on the outside (no air exchange), moisture will not condense inside the camera, because there is no warm moist air inside the camera.
In the literature above, they say that the eveready case will (act like a moisture shield and) prevent condensation on the cold camera surfaces (when the camera enters warm,moist air). That is somewhat reasonable, IF the case is kept fully closed until the internal and external surfaces of the camera rise to the ambient air temperature.

In the event that jaapv describes, the moist air was inside the camera, which is why condensation could occur internally. Not the same situation implied by the eveready case literature above.

EDIT: Removing the lens from a cold camera in a warm room, allows warm air inside the camera, and may cause internal condensation. Best to wait until the camera warms up to room temperature.

uhoh7
12-21-2015, 17:45
That skier..looks like he's gonna ...mug you...!
LOL

A city perspective ;) I might be just as paranoid as many who post here if I was exposed to that risk, but here most don't even lock the house or car. When I grew up in California in the 60s it was the same way in our college town, Davis.

But that's not to say there are no risks. My gear takes a serious beating both in the backcountry and since I drag it everywhere. I can forget stuff, drop stuff etc.

But mugging is very unlikely. I laugh at the idea of removing the red dot to protect the camera. Here they all think I'm dragging around some worthless film camera, and it's the last thing they would think of stealing.

Leica? Whats a Leica? Rangerovers and fancy ski gear they know all about :)

However I do note there are many fearless street shooters in the big cities who have their technique down and don't seem to loose stuff very often.

The conversation about condensation is interesting to me as I often bring in my camera in and out of cold weather.

daveleo
12-21-2015, 18:04
:confused:Why should moisture know the difference between inside our outside? The problem is that in certain conditions the air inside the camera gets moist and condenses on the electronic parts, causing severe corrosion and short circuits. Such a camera is total loss.
In one case an M8 was kept inside a rucksack inside a tent in Greenland during a spell of rain. After the temperature dropped the camera was killed by internal condensation.


I was remarking on the specific event mentioned in the photocopied user manual. The cold camera was brought into warm moist air. In that event, the moisture would only condense on the camera's outer (cold) surface. If the case is left on, moisture condenses on the case. Leave it on until the camera warms up; then moisture will not condense on the camera.
Your situation was not the same event.

noisycheese
04-04-2016, 16:57
I used exactly this analogy to help a friend in his decision to buy a very expensive watch.

He bought the watch and enjoys the hell out off wearing it every day. This enjoyment overcomes any sense of fear that it could get lost or damaged,
and any self consciousness he may experience.

I say buy it if you can afford it, and for goodness sake, take off the price tag!! :p

Most of all, just use and enjoy it! Life is too short .....

Cheers

J

That's my approach to it. I have my camera gear insured to the hilt and I use it; I am careful with my gear in terms of not dropping/breaking/losing it. I am cautious about my surroundings and people who are in my vicinity and what they are up to when I am photographing.

In my experience, proper insurance and eternal vigilance are the keys to countering the worries expressed by the OP.

MartinL
04-05-2016, 11:01
I have boat insurance. But it seems no similar insurance for "recreational" use of camera. Only professional use have insurance programs in Canada, it seems.
A few years ago I was hiking. Had m8 in my "waterproof" pack. Big storm comes up, small seam leak in pack which then fills up with water (doesn't drain, of course, because it's waterproof) I had taken out an insurance "rider" specifically for camera gear on top of my conventional policy - - -cost about US 110/year. M8 no longer in production so the "replacement" camera was M9. Insurance company handled all details with US Leica which sent me new M9 and kept the M8 after verifying that it could not be repaired.

As I recall, there were no restrictions stated for recreational use, but some for professional.

So my recommendation is to explore all insurance options.