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taemo
12-07-2015, 09:39
Back in September, after a 2 week vacation in Europe I decided to drop my M240 and 35mm summicron at The Camera Store to be serviced by Leica NJ.
My M240 and lens was splashed by salt water while in Italy and the sensor was pretty dirty.
I like dealing with The Camera Store directly as their fee is a flat $30 to start the process and mail my camera to any service centers.

6 weeks later, I still haven't heard back from The Camera Store so I started calling them for an update.
A few days later, they got back to me with the following quote from Leica.

Body - $320
adjust r/f, check complete meter system, clean sensor, upgrade current standard noc, check/clean/adjust all functions to specification

Lens - $520
repair focusing mount, repair diaphragm aperture ring, clean optics, install focus grip, repair and adjust focus operation, general check/clean/adjust

The lens was actually working perfectly for me so I asked them to send it back and work on the body only.

Last friday I get a call from The Camera Store saying that my camera and lens are back so I quickly stopped by the store during my lunch time, excited to see my camera and lens after over 2 months of separation.
I see the lens was mounted on the body so I borrowed a battery to test them out, started looking through the viewfinder while reaching the lens to focus but I couldn't feel the focusing tab on the lens.
Quickly did a visual inspection on the lens and yup, the focusing tab was missing.
So I left the lens at The Camera Store again which means I will not have my lens again for another 6 weeks. Fortunately I'm not much a 35mm shooter anymore, preferring 28/50 so not a big loss.

I dealt with Canon for a lens in the past and Fuji for my GSW690III with no problem, so I was expecting equal or better service from Leica.

taemo
10-18-2016, 10:54
Update on this as Leica NJ support seems to be abysmal.

I didn't see the Summicron 35mm lens until March (over 3 months waiting from Leica NJ). Once I had it in my hand, it sat on the shelf for most of the time as I've rarely used this lens.
To my disappointment, when I started using it again I noticed that the hood was a little crooked, quick inspection and I realized that the aperture line was off and that the front lens was loose and can be unscrewed.
Called Leica NJ mid September, someone answered and emailed me asking for my contact information so that they can mail me a UPS return label. After providing the info I never heard back from the tech, either via email or voicemail.
So after a week I called again, another tech and answered and same deal, they emailed me, I provided my info then another week of ignoring emails and calls.
Called again today and was able to talk to another lady, they said they will send me a return label today or tomorrow and will confirm me once it's on its way.

Never expected such an inefficient service from a company that caters to the luxurious.

Talus
10-18-2016, 18:24
Sent my M9-P in on September 29th for the sensor issue. Was told ten days to log the camera and reply to me with any update. So far nothing. I called every day last week and every day this week thus far without talking to anyone besides the receptionist. Left voicemails, and still nothing. Very disappointed as well.

MikeMGB
10-18-2016, 18:41
From everything I have heard about Leica NJ, f you got a luke-warm result you did very well. A lot f people seem to do better sending their cameras to Wetzlar.

Huss
10-19-2016, 00:58
The reason luxury brands are luxury brands and charge what they do is because of how they take care of their customers before, during and after the sale.
It seems that Leica in the USA is only a luxury brand before and during the sale. They become a discount store brand after the sale.

sanmich
10-19-2016, 03:12
My M7 is with Leica NJ as we speak.
Never again.:bang:

rybolt
10-19-2016, 03:48
I emailed Customer Service last Saturday morning at 10am EST with a question concerning the M9 that they have in house. I had a reply at 2:30 pm EST on Saturday. They seem to reply to emails much better than calls.

sanmich
10-19-2016, 03:54
I emailed Customer Service last Saturday morning at 10am EST with a question concerning the M9 that they have in house. I had a reply at 2:30 pm EST on Saturday. They seem to reply to emails much better than calls.
I got excellent email answers until I sent the camera.
After my current experience there, I'd rather try to learn German to ship to Wetzlar than ship again to NJ.

Jan Pedersen
10-19-2016, 05:39
I have used Leica NJ once, the first and the last.
Very poor customer service, almost impossible to reach anyone that can give a status update on a repair.

taemo
10-19-2016, 06:39
Very disappointing to hear that I'm not the only one having terrible services from Leica NJ.

The lady that I called yesterday was finally able to send me a UPS label via email... how hard was this to do that 2 previous tech couldn't do it?
But now the scary part is sending the lens to them and wait.

Huss
10-19-2016, 08:21
My M7 is with Leica NJ as we speak.
Never again.:bang:

I think with the M7 that's the only choice in the USA

SolaresLarrave
10-19-2016, 09:09
Wow... that's really bad news.

I used their services a few times, back around 2006-2008, when I had an issue with one of my M6TTL bodies. Their turnaround was about a month, and if you needed to speak with a technician on the phone it could be done. Their service supervisor was very good at replying to e-mails and even sold me (for an arm and a leg, but worth it) a lens hood with opening for my Elmarit 28mm (third version). Given that recently I was pondering about sending my M6TTL again to them, I think I won't...

Sincerely, best of luck with your repairs... It's a pity their service has gone this bad...

jky
10-19-2016, 09:31
Earl
Quite unfortunate & understandably frustrating. Hope it all turns around to your satisfaction. I've dealt with Leica NJ three times and have had the oppostie experience as yours with each encounter - prompt replies to queries, requests/estimates... granted this was over 3 years ago. With the 3 dealings (which spanned over 2 years), I dealt with pretty much the same staff/technician/rep. New personnel perhaps?
Anyway, wish you the best of luck.

AZPhotog
10-19-2016, 09:44
Seems to me that the more the bad service reports are disseminated at this site (and potentially others), the more likely it is that folks who "were" interested in Leica may now have reservations about a new or future purchase of the Leica brand. Especially considering the very high prices.

Granted, this may not translate to a large volume of sales, but still, bad reports do eventually get around. The Leica company should sit up and take note of this and correct the service issues at whatever office is troublesome to avoid cutting their own throats long-term.

Would I ever buy any modern Leica equipment? NOPE! I have read about just too many quality and service issues for me to give consideration.

Just my two cents for what it is worth.

rybolt
10-19-2016, 09:44
If you are an LHSA member be sure to mention it. It can help. Not always, though.

Talus
10-22-2016, 18:26
I spoke with a big used gear vendor today at the PhotoPlus expo in NYC. He said that he's had people tell him of internal thefts over there at Leica NJ. One of his customers got a brand new 240 body and lens in replacement for a "lost" M9. I went over to the leica booth and after fondling a Noctilux for a brief few I gave the rep some words about having my M9 for a month without word. He took my card and promised to make it right. So hopefully this will be a new chapter with my Leica NJ experience.

Emile de Leon
10-22-2016, 18:42
I still remember giving my 35mm f2 ver 4 German to the Leica guy at the booth at Photoplus nyc for a "free" examination and element "cleaning"..
I handed them a good clean lens in mint cond..and got back 5 min later..a lens with grease on the rear element and dirt sticking there too..
Then they tried to clean it a 2nd and 3rd time..and guess what..polishing marks..all over both elements..
I'll never forget that..or make that mistake again..

Talus
10-22-2016, 19:53
I still remember giving my 35mm f2 ver 4 German to the Leica guy at the booth at Photoplus nyc for a "free" examination and element "cleaning"..
I handed them a good clean lens in mint cond..and got back 5 min later..a lens with grease on the rear element and dirt sticking there too..
Then they tried to clean it a 2nd and 3rd time..and guess what..polishing marks..all over both elements..
I'll never forget that..or make that mistake again..



Oh man. Did they fix it in the end?

Blitz11
12-12-2016, 11:12
I sent a Leica 35mm R lens for service to their New Jersey facility in June 2016. My FedEx tracking told me that the lens arrived there after a three day shipping period. I got a receipt from Leica in late July informing me that they had received my lens. After another month I received a call from a technician, that the part needed was being shipped from Germany (Solms) and that I would receive my lens back in about 6 weeks. I do not have the lens back yet and it is December!
What kind of responsible (and GERMAN) company takes over a month to notify receipt of an item this expensive? And then 5 more weeks of trouble shooting the problem? I have been on the phone for at least two hours listening to some music while waiting for someone to answer the telephone for info about my lens. When I did speak to a real person, they had no idea of what I was talking about (these persons should not be allowed to answer phones - they do not know how!)

To get this sort of treatment from a company as revered as LEICA is just not right. Their reputation has always been on par with the BEST products available anywhere. Their service is a not so funny joke.

Totally frustrated Leica customer

Calzone
12-12-2016, 12:00
I contacted Leica N.J. back in July to get on a waiting list for Sensor replacement on my Monochrom. I was told I would be contacted after 4 months and then the turnaround would be 6-8 weeks.

So November passed and I called again. I got sent a shipping label last week and my camera is with Leica N.J. right now. I was also updated that the turnaround time now will be 8-10 weeks, but I can understand that this is during the holidays and is somewhat expected.

So far I have not been disappointed. I know someone else who sent in their Monochrom and waited the full six months to have his sensor replaced. The delay/long wait I was told is due to 4-5 month backlog on sensors by Roxana the Customer Service Rep.

Also John, the Service Manager, told me if the sensor upon inspection needs replacement, then my camera would get a complete overhaul and come back as if a new camera.

I expect to get my Monochrom back sometime in February, and at that time my Monochrom will be 4 years old (I bought it new). This camera was used rather heavily and along the edges of the top plate the anodize is worn away and what I believe is nickel plating is showing through. The covering is worn smooth from my fingertips on the front of the camera because of my use of a grip.

Anyways my experience thus far has been very good. No problems.

Cal

Calzone
12-12-2016, 12:02
One wonders whether the problem is the volume of repairs (not a good sign) or a lack of personnel (also not a good sign), or both (really not a good sign).

Perhaps a lot of unexpected work due to sensor replacements. Likely a limit on qualified personnel like you stated also.

Cal

brennanphotoguy
12-12-2016, 12:12
Is it true that only Leica works on the M7?

Yeah, none of the well known techs work on them due to the electronics from what I'm told.

taemo
12-12-2016, 12:20
post 2 months update from my last one.

Leica NJ contacted me last week informing that they have my lens (for the 3rd time) and have forwarded me an estimate (450$) to work on the lens.

I quickly replied to them that I shouldn't have to pay anything as I've never opened the lens and noted that they worked on this lens earlier this year when they accidentally forgot to include the focus tab on my lens.

So now they are forwarding the information to their Customer Care Manager for a decision.

Huss
12-12-2016, 12:27
Perhaps a lot of unexpected work due to sensor replacements.

I think that sensor replacement work is very expected.

jsrockit
12-12-2016, 12:31
If I had this mess going on, I would contact (even in by letter) every corporate person I could find that's affiliated with Leica telling them my story in detail. Of course you won't hear back from these people directly, but generally, they have people that handle their mail / e-mails and will take you very seriously.

Maybe starting here:

https://us.leica-camera.com/Company/Corporate-Profile/Corporate-Profile

Calzone
12-12-2016, 12:34
I think that sensor replacement work is very expected.

Huss,

Good point, but as my memory remembers sensors have been being replaced for a little longer than a year, not years.

It took a while for Leica to redesign a new replacement sensor, then there still seems to be the continued bottleneck of supply.

Cal

Huss
12-12-2016, 12:39
Hi Cal, no Leica NJ has been replacing them for years now. It is only 'recently' that they are replacing them with the updated sensors.

brennanphotoguy
12-12-2016, 12:39
If I had this mess going on, I would contact (even in by letter) every corporate person I could find that's affiliated with Leica telling them my story in detail. Of course you won't hear back from these people directly, but generally, they have people that handle their mail / e-mails and will take you very seriously.

Maybe starting here:

https://us.leica-camera.com/Company/Corporate-Profile/Corporate-Profile

My buddy sent them his MP to have it black chromed. First, he waited over 3 months and they accidentally ordered another black paint top but black chrome bits so they asked him if that was ok and if he'd like it like that. He quickly turned it down and then waited 4 more months for the black chrome top to come in from Germany. He was originally quoted 6 weeks. He contacted every one he could get information for and even messaged Andreas K and he read the message and did nothing with it. The only thing that got their attention was the stop payment he did with his card company. He didn't get a single apology or offer to make anything right and something else happened when it came back like a misaligned rangefinder or something else too. Not one reply from anyone from anywhere except which address to have it sent back when it was completed, no one acknowledged his previous emails or calls.

That's ****ty service.

Calzone
12-12-2016, 12:55
Hi Cal, no Leica NJ has been replacing them for years now. It is only 'recently' that they are replacing them with the updated sensors.

Huss,

Thanks. Now I remember the full story. You are right, as well as the other poster. Sensor replacement has been going on for years. Now I remember waiting a long-long time for things to get played out: years.

Anyways I now have skin in this thread, and I waited for the dust to settle on the sensor replacement issue. For me Paying $8K for the Monochrom, shooting it heavily for nearly 4 years, and getting a free sensor replacement and overhaul is a very good deal. I love the camera.

Is my memory correct that the durable sensor replacement has been going on for a little longer than a year?

A funny story is that I went down to the Flat Iron District to drop off a camera at Nippon Photo Clinic after work, and I couldn't find them. I began to panic because in NYC you see all these posters of missing people all the time, and I was wondering if I was one of those people who leave home, get disoriented, and become missing.

So somehow I made it home, and I dig through my records to get a receipt from Nippon. I call the number even though it was after 6:00 PM, and someone answered the phone. I soon learned that their rent went up and they moved uptown. Anyways for a while I was worried that I lost it. LOL.

Cal

bobkatz
12-12-2016, 13:06
Bad experience here too, sent my Cron 90 AA for some haze, returned the same, sent it back and I hope this time returned as new..:D

x-ray
12-12-2016, 13:09
Seems to me that the more the bad service reports are disseminated at this site (and potentially others), the more likely it is that folks who "were" interested in Leica may now have reservations about a new or future purchase of the Leica brand. Especially considering the very high prices.

Granted, this may not translate to a large volume of sales, but still, bad reports do eventually get around. The Leica company should sit up and take note of this and correct the service issues at whatever office is troublesome to avoid cutting their own throats long-term.

Would I ever buy any modern Leica equipment? NOPE! I have read about just too many quality and service issues for me to give consideration.

Just my two cents for what it is worth.

I completely agree. I bought a new M9 a few years ago and had so many problems with both the camera and service I decided I'll never buy another new Leica product. I will never purchase any item that would have to go back to leica for service. Leica never offered to pay shipping and in the end to get a defective 90 apo summicron replaced I had to threaten legal action.

Turnaround was never less than 7 weeks on any item I sent them. Communications were OK but the quality of repairs was terrible and had to go back about half the time. I asked about a loaner since I'm a professional and have been a Leica customer almost fifty years and was told loaners don't exist. On this forum however I've learned they do exist.

rfaspen
12-12-2016, 13:28
None of the stories I read in this thread bode well for me. I think I just found the beginning of corrosion in my M9.

Other than one new lens back in the late 80s, I have been happy to buy pre-owned Leica kit. Assuming I can trust the seller, I know how well it works at the time of purchase and any "factory-direct" issues have already been corrected, or at least known and disclosed.

I believe lenses from any time period can be serviced by one of the well-known non-Leica Leica technicians (and that's what I've done) as well as bodies up to and including the M6TTL for nearly complete service. I've also sent my later bodies (e.g., M8 or M9) to Don (DAG) for mundane service as well (RF calibration).

So, I've been able to avoid the unpleasant experiences described in this thread -- until now??? Hopefully not.

jsrockit
12-12-2016, 13:33
My buddy sent them his MP to have it black chromed. First, he waited over 3 months and they accidentally ordered another black paint top but black chrome bits so they asked him if that was ok and if he'd like it ike that. He quickly turned it down and then waited 4 more months for the black chrome top to come in from Germany. He was originally quoted 6 weeks. He contacted every one he could get information for and even messaged Andreas K and he read the message and did nothing with it. The only thing that got their attention was the stop payment he did with his card company. He didn't get a single apology or offer to make anything right and something else happened when it came back like a misaligned rangefinder or something else too. Not one reply from anyone from anywhere except which address to have it sent back when it was completed, no one acknowledged his previous emails or calls.

That's ****ty service.

Wow, I've never had that happen once I send the letters / e-mails. I mean, all companies have issues and occasionally mess up. But it's harder to swallow with the $ involved here. I have to admit, I've had excellent service from Leica NJ including reduced repair rates and quick turnaround, but it been about 5 years since I've had to deal with them.

zuiko85
12-12-2016, 13:34
As an outsider looking in (OK, I do have an old Leica, a M4-2 with a CV35mm f2.5, but it can and was sorted out by Youxin for $200 and 2 weeks) But as you can tell, not much of a Leica user.

Anyway, I wonder if this thread could/should be forwarded to Leica Camera in Wetzlar and how you folks could go about that. Or find out the top dog over there and send a copy of this thread via e-mail with a note that a hard copy will follow.

Reading these things makes me upset and I'm not even personally affected.

Ronald M
12-12-2016, 13:47
Leica has always been poor service, worse lately.

I know someone who sent a M8 in for line remap on the sensor. He spent nearly a year trying how not to chop heads off. Then found out M9 frame lines were put in.

One would think screwups would move to head of the line, but no. They go back to the end and the 3/4 month wait starts again.

DAG has made minor errors and they come back the same week. This was a rare occurrence I might add.

Robert Lai
12-12-2016, 14:21
Don Goldberg can service the M7. He can upgrade the viewfinder to the MP type "flare-free" finder for $250. The only items which he can't service are the components involving circuit boards, such as conversion to the optical DX film speed reader from the electrical contacts.

I had Leica NJ do the conversion as well as install the MP type rangefinder optics. After the camera came back, it kept reading all films as ISO 5000. Even if I tried to manually set the film speed, it indicated ISO 5000. After a second trip to Leica NJ, it has been working perfectly well. If it wasn't for the optical reader issue, I would have sent it to DAG.

jaapv
12-12-2016, 16:51
I got excellent email answers until I sent the camera.
After my current experience there, I'd rather try to learn German to ship to Wetzlar than ship again to NJ.
There is excellent English spoken in Wetzlar, in fact they can even handle American ;)

jaapv
12-12-2016, 16:57
Huss,

Good point, but as my memory remembers sensors have been being replaced for a little longer than a year, not years.

It took a while for Leica to redesign a new replacement sensor, then there still seems to be the continued bottleneck of supply.

Cal
And there always will be bottlenecks. Leica is a very small customer for ON, sensors are made in batches, so they have to wait in line each time they order new ones. As the number of replacement sensors is not that high and rather variable it is impossible to do proper stock planning.

jaapv
12-12-2016, 17:22
Yep. Reason that Leica has the system of calling the camera in when the sensor is in stock to minimize down time. The procedure is not to send the camera in, but to request notification when a repair slot is planned, at which time Leica will collect the camera and replace the sensor within a more or less reasonable time span. In the meantime the camera can be used with a bit of spot removal in postprocessing. I suppose that one can request express repair for a one-week turnaround (not free).
The long waits reported are cameras that are sent in without appointment.

Huss
12-12-2016, 20:39
I stumbled across this thread, and the difference in service quality/turn around time between Sony and Leica is stunning. Let alone comparing it against Canon or Nikon.

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1411531

There really is no excuse.

jaapv
12-12-2016, 23:29
8-10 weeks. More or less reasonable time span with no wait for the sensor to arrive? Just how many Monochromes do you have?Just one. Turnaround for sensor replacement was three weeks exactly. I thought it a bit long, but acceptable. My M9 was checked at the same time and did not need replacement. It was back in a week.

Calzone
12-13-2016, 05:52
And there always will be bottlenecks. Leica is a very small customer for ON, sensors are made in batches, so they have to wait in line each time they order new ones. As the number of replacement sensors is not that high and rather variable it is impossible to do proper stock planning.

J,

For me this is understood. I got on a waiting list just to buy my Monochrom, and waited 5 months. I pre-paid for an AF 50 Lux for my SL and it mat be released in early 2017, but it was suppose to be at the end of 2016 when it was first announced in 2015.

Waiting and being patient is part of the culture. When I sent a Rollieflex to Harry Fleenor to get overhauled I was told 12 weeks turnaround. When I send a camera to Sherry there have been times I waited more than 8 weeks.

Currently I am waiting on some new ink from Jon Cone (Piezography Pro) that is a recent development/advancement. I prepaid and delivery was suppose to be about a month ago, but only yesterday did I find out that deliveries are now being processed.

Anyway I think I am being realistic in knowing that at this level don't expect a rush job.

Bad or faulty repairs is another issue...

Cal

Calzone
12-13-2016, 05:58
So a 6 month wait in line and then only a 2 to 2 1/2 month turnaround. And no disappointment? Since you use your Monochrome so heavily, do you have a spare?

F,

See my other post about the culture. For fast repairs I go to Nippon Photo Clinic locally here in NYC, and hand drop off and pick up.

I bought a Leica SL that now is my most used camera. Also know I have many other cameras and was planning on this blackout period without my Monochrom.

If I get my Monochrom back sometime in February I will be happy. I don't expect problems because I tend to be a very lucky guy. I really don't mind the wait because I planned around it. I bought a new camera, and I minimized not having my Monochrom hopefully limiting it to my off season.

Cal

Calzone
12-13-2016, 06:03
Yep. Reason that Leica has the system of calling the camera in when the sensor is in stock to minimize down time. The procedure is not to send the camera in, but to request notification when a repair slot is planned, at which time Leica will collect the camera and replace the sensor within a more or less reasonable time span. In the meantime the camera can be used with a bit of spot removal in postprocessing. I suppose that one can request express repair for a one-week turnaround (not free).
The long waits reported are cameras that are sent in without appointment.

J,

This I found to be true. A friend from the NYC Meet-Up sent in his Monochrom for sensor replacement and waited 6 months.

Cal

jsrockit
12-13-2016, 06:23
So a 6 month wait in line and then only a 2 to 2 1/2 month turnaround. And no disappointment? Since you use your Monochrome so heavily, do you have a spare?

Yes, those that don't complain are the types that have many cameras to choose from. If you can only afford one camera and have to rely on one camera, never buy a digital Leica.

brennanphotoguy
12-13-2016, 06:30
Even budgeting for this wait time, I don't see how it's acceptable to wait 4-6 months for your camera to get called in and then wait another 2-3 months for the sensor to get installed. That's absolutely insane. Even if I owned a new digital Leica I would find that unacceptable unless a loaner was supplied from day 1 without having to ask for it. Even if it's just a hobby for someone, not having a camera for 2-3 months while it's having a sensor installed is crazy. There is no justification for their service practices.

Calzone
12-13-2016, 06:40
Yes, those that don't complain are the types that have many cameras to choose from. If you can only afford one camera and have to rely on one camera, never buy a digital Leica.

John,

Having back ups and planning for service without a key camera at a certain level becomes necessary.

Cal

Calzone
12-13-2016, 07:03
Even budgeting for this wait time, I don't see how it's acceptable to wait 4-6 months for your camera to get called in and then wait another 2-3 months for the sensor to get installed. That's absolutely insane. Even if I owned a new digital Leica I would find that unacceptable unless a loaner was supplied from day 1 without having to ask for it. Even if it's just a hobby for someone, not having a camera for 2-3 months while it's having a sensor installed is crazy. There is no justification for their service practices.

Brennan,

The actual wait is 4 months on a waiting list, and the new longer 8-10 weeks turnaround time is current. the turnaround time use to be only 6-8 weeks, but the recent extension might be due to the holidays.

If you send in your camera without arrangements it becomes a flat 6 month turnaround.

Yes the wait times are long, but let's not make them longer than they already/really are. LOL.

All I know is that I have had to be patient with Sherry, Harry Fleenor, and DAG. All from personal experience. These wait times I also deem long.

In real life I have been waiting for 12 years to have a guitar built from one builder. At a certain level people wait 7 years on the "short" list for a John Monteleone arch top guitar, and when they get called they have to pay half as a deposit to get on the "long" list. The problem now is John is kinda getting really old, and people are a little scared to get on that long list because it is a race against a clock.

Anyways the Cris Mirabella guitar I have been waiting for over 12 years might be done in a year or two. Hopefully...

Cal

brennanphotoguy
12-13-2016, 07:15
One guy that's building a guitar by hand is a lot different than an international premium camera manufacturer taking half a year to fix an issue. Even 6-8 weeks is too long. Waiting more than 3 weeks is crazy for any repair service when parts don't need to be sourced for an old camera repair. Our tech at work CLA'd my Rollei and completely disassembled the shutter assembly to remove old oil and dirt and took a mint prism out of a cracked body and into an undamaged body and had it back to me in 6 hours. The fact that some of these repair people take more than 3 weeks to get something back is nuts. Yes, I know you can only work so many hours/day and there's a queue of cameras in front of yours when you send it in but come on. Also, Youxin serviced my IIIg in one night and had it back out to me the next morning.

Bendj
12-13-2016, 07:15
Here's a slight antidote to the Leica NJ Woes.

I recently had to send my MA to Leica Germany due to a small light leak, I did this on the 24th of November. I have just been notified that it is on its way back to me and will be with me tomorrow. This is the outline of repair activity.

receiving inspection
adjust shutter
adjust autocollimation
adjust friction
adjust range finder
clean range finder
adjustment of all parts
cleaning and end control

Pretty happy with that turnaround though not that happy the fault was there in the first place!

SaveKodak
12-13-2016, 07:25
Here is a thread (http://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/59271-leica-service.html) with further horror stories about Leica service, many regarding the uber luxury S system's many failures.

It's neither acceptable or charming to treat people who bother to pay the absurd premium on Leica gear this way.

mpaniagua
12-13-2016, 07:25
I stumbled across this thread, and the difference in service quality/turn around time between Sony and Leica is stunning. Let alone comparing it against Canon or Nikon.

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1411531

There really is no excuse.

Problem is in numbers Huss. Greater number of repairs justify having a bigger repair staff and a larger stock of replacement parts. So, faster turnaround times. And by greater numbers I mean there are a lot more Nikon cameras around than Leica M9.

Regards

splitimageview
12-13-2016, 07:37
Leica NJ took forever on my Leica Q repair. The original estimate was 3-4 weeks; it took six months.

jsrockit
12-13-2016, 07:39
John,

Having back ups and planning for service without a key camera at a certain level becomes necessary.

Cal

Cal,

It shouldn't have to be. Every other camera manufacturer has a one week turnaround generally.

mpaniagua
12-13-2016, 07:40
Also,if you go to McDonalds,they fix you your meal in minutes. If you go to a luxury restaurant, your meal will take a lot longer. You also need a reservatiom and sometimes you get into a waiting line. Different business models.

Regards

brennanphotoguy
12-13-2016, 07:40
Cal,

It shouldn't have to be. Every other camera manufacturer has a one week turnaround generally.

And offers loaners if you're apart of their pro service.

Edit: and replies to all forms of communication.

jsrockit
12-13-2016, 07:42
Also,if you go to McDonalds,they fix you your meal in minutes. If you go to a luxury restaurant, your meal will take a lot longer. You also need a reservatiom and sometimes you get into a waiting line. Different business models.


Not the same. At the luxury restaurant sitting in its environment for hours is part of its supposed appeal. What is the appeal of waiting months for service simply because you paid more for a camera?

Calzone
12-13-2016, 07:44
One guy that's building a guitar by hand is a lot different than an international premium camera manufacturer taking half a year to fix an issue. Even 6-8 weeks is too long. Waiting more than 3 weeks is crazy for any repair service when parts don't need to be sourced for an old camera repair. Our tech at work CLA'd my Rollei and completely disassembled the shutter assembly to remove old oil and dirt and took a mint prism out of a cracked body and into an undamaged body and had it back to me in 6 hours. The fact that some of these repair people take more than 3 weeks to get something back is nuts. Yes, I know you can only work so many hours/day and there's a queue of cameras in front of yours when you send it in but come on. Also, Youxin serviced my IIIg in one night and had it back out to me the next morning.

Brennan,

You are correct that the waiting is crazy, but I don't let it make me crazy.

Also know I think waiting for a Harry Fleenor overhaul is worth the wait. He simply is the best. I intend to keep shooting my Rollie 3.5F the rest of my life, so what is a 12 week wait?

Also with Sherry, my guess is that I'm one of those special customers of hers, meaning a pain in the butt. LOL. I actually have had Sherry build me a la carte Leicas and have tried to have her do all kinds of modifications. Some she refused. LOL. As proof I have a 1975 SL2-MOT that basically is a minty camera/time capsule that was built from two parts cameras. Anyways I can understand why some repair people would not want to work for me. LOL. Funny thing is that Sherry thought this was a very cool project, and it was performed rather quickly and sooner than I expected.

As an artist I know there are good times to be crazy. LOL.

Cal

SaveKodak
12-13-2016, 07:47
Cal,

It shouldn't have to be. Every other camera manufacturer has a one week turnaround generally.

Exactly. We're talking about a company that has rolled out little boutiques in many cities all over the world. They can set up 8 retail locations in the USA, 30 in Europe, and 34 in Asia (surprise surprise) but they can't fix a Q in less than 6 months?

Leica is not 6 german men in a basement factory putting out as many handmade cameras as they can anymore. It's a worldwide luxury brand. They could develop a service and support structure but they have decided that their clientele isn't worth it. And it really isn't surprising when you have people in this very thread saying that their turn-around is completely acceptable. Trump said he could shoot someone on 5th Ave and he wouldn't lose any supporters. Leica has much the same relationship to their users. Lucky for me, my M4 can be serviced easily and quickly without interference from the mothership.

brennanphotoguy
12-13-2016, 07:52
Also know I think waiting for a Harry Fleenor overhaul is worth the wait. He simply is the best. I intend to keep shooting my Rollie 3.5F the rest of my life, so what is a 12 week wait?


Ok, I hear people say stuff like this all the time about different things. What makes him "the best," and makes it worth a 3 month wait? My camera looks and functions new, has been properly serviced and has been working just fine for the past two years with no hiccups. What more would you expect from a repair? Youxin does the same thing, he makes cameras function like they should and warranties them for a year. What makes waiting 3 months minus a few days for another person to do the same thing when the end result is exactly the same?

robert blu
12-13-2016, 08:00
It seems me a constant that Leica service requires a long time and there are many complains about it.

I can understand Leicas are special cameras, need special technicians to work on, smaller company compared to other japanese brands and so on.

What I do not understand is why Leica doesn't supply to his clients a loaner service when repair times exceed a few weeks. I'm sure many clients would even pay (a reasonable) fee for it. Not everyone likes to buy a backup camera for occasional use, just in case the "main" camera should be serviced.

For me this is the main reason which kept me away from buying an "important" digital Leica.

Leica invested a lot of money in beautiful shops all over the world, which is good, probably it's time now to invest money in upgrading the technical service.

robert

Calzone
12-13-2016, 08:03
Not the same. At the luxury restaurant sitting in its environment for hours is part of its supposed appeal. What is the appeal of waiting months for service simply because you paid more for a camera?

John,

There is an Italian restaurant in East Harlem called Rau's. You can't book a reservation, and the tables are actually owned, meaning you need to know someone who owns a table to eat at Rau's.

I have gone to Peter Luger's and got some of their famous rude service. I brought my friend (my treat). The waitor asked us if we wanted menus, and when Steve said yes the waitor huffed with his body language that he was annoyed. He handed my friend his menu and before he could open it asked, "What do you want?"

Steve was getting annoyed himself, but I was laughing.

When Steve ordered his steak, sides and a beer, the waitor said, "Is that all?"

Anyways seeing Steve respond to the rude behavior is part of the culture at Peter Luger's, but the steaks are mighty good. I love their steak sause also.

My friend was offended by the rude culture, but I was entertained by it.

Cal

Calzone
12-13-2016, 08:18
Ok, I hear people say stuff like this all the time about different things. What makes him "the best," and makes it worth a 3 month wait? My camera looks and functions new, has been properly serviced and has been working just fine for the past two years with no hiccups. What more would you expect from a repair? Youxin does the same thing, he makes cameras function like they should and warranties them for a year. What makes waiting 3 months minus a few days for another person to do the same thing when the end result is exactly the same?

Brennan,

First off Harry Fleenor is a specialist. All Harry works on is Rollies. Harry is also factory trained. So is Sherry and Don, but Youxin is not. In fact professionally Youxin is an accountant, and repairing cameras for him is a hobbie/sideline.

The most overused and misused term is CLA. Do not mistaken a CLA with an overhaul. There is a distinction. I actually get my cameras overhauled, and actually pay for parts that are replaced. A CLA is basically like a tune-up and no parts are replaced.

I do not think Youxin is in the same league. Also know I intend or try to keep cameras with the long-long haul in mind, meaning I want to keep the camera the rest of my life. For me it is not about the same thing, saving money or time, it simply is trying to get the best.

To me Youxin or having a generalist repair person is not the same league. Clearly there is a distinction, but whether there is value added that is valued to you is seperate concern.

Cal

Huss
12-13-2016, 08:25
I think it's funny that the Leica apologists are spinning the 3-6 month wait as acceptable as if it's part of a luxury experience.

"You got your Nikon repaired in 3 days? Paah! I waited 4 months for my Leica! Eat your heart out!"

(I am a current M240 user, ex M-E user etc etc.)

brennanphotoguy
12-13-2016, 08:31
I think it's funny that the Leica apologists are spinning the 3-6 month wait as acceptable as if it's part of a luxury experience.

"You got your Nikon repaired in 3 days? Paah! I waited 4 months for my Leica! Eat your heart out!"

(I am a current M240 user, ex M-E user etc etc.)

I'm getting quite a laugh out of this as well haha.

SaveKodak
12-13-2016, 08:34
Brennan,

First off Harry Fleenor is a specialist. All Harry works on is Rollies. Harry is also factory trained. So is Sherry and Don, but Youxin is not. In fact professionally Youxin is an accountant, and repairing cameras for him is a hobbie/sideline.

The most overused and misused term is CLA. Do not mistaken a CLA with an overhaul. There is a distinction. I actually get my cameras overhauled, and actually pay for parts that are replaced. A CLA is basically like a tune-up and no parts are replaced.

I do not think Youxin is in the same league. Also know I intend or try to keep cameras with the long-long haul in mind, meaning I want to keep the camera the rest of my life. For me it is not about the same thing, saving money or time, it simply is trying to get the best.

To me Youxin or having a generalist repair person is not the same league. Clearly there is a distinction, but whether there is value added that is valued to you is seperate concern.

Cal

You are making a sophistic argument about your preferred technicians. You have not provided any evidence that a Fleenor treatment is any different from a Nippon or other treatment other than Fleenor saying it is.

The TL/DR of what you're saying (perhaps without knowing it) is that you are very susceptible to marketing and branding. As long as someone tells you you're getting 'the best' of something, you're willing to be fleeced and you'll take to the internet to let us all know how happy you are about it. Case and point: Piezography, waiting lists for hand made guitars, Peter Lugars (the best steak in Williamsburg can be found at St. Anslem), and the Leica SL.

The best part is it's not even very hard to just concede, "yes, it would be nice is Leica service was faster but it hasn't affected me personally so I accept it." Instead you're telling us to say, "thank you sir, may I have another?!" SMH.

brennanphotoguy
12-13-2016, 08:52
Brennan,

First off Harry Fleenor is a specialist. All Harry works on is Rollies. Harry is also factory trained. So is Sherry and Don, but Youxin is not. In fact professionally Youxin is an accountant, and repairing cameras for him is a hobbie/sideline.

The most overused and misused term is CLA. Do not mistaken a CLA with an overhaul. There is a distinction. I actually get my cameras overhauled, and actually pay for parts that are replaced. A CLA is basically like a tune-up and no parts are replaced.

I do not think Youxin is in the same league. Also know I intend or try to keep cameras with the long-long haul in mind, meaning I want to keep the camera the rest of my life. For me it is not about the same thing, saving money or time, it simply is trying to get the best.

To me Youxin or having a generalist repair person is not the same league. Clearly there is a distinction, but whether there is value added that is valued to you is seperate concern.

Cal

I understand the distinction between a CLA and an overhaul. What I don't understand is why you would do an overhaul when a CLA is all that is required. I want to keep my 3 primary cameras going for the rest of my life as well which is why when they NEED to be overhauled, they will be overhauled.

What you have yet to explain to me is what your overhauled 3.5F does differently than my CLA'd 3.5E3 in terms of use? My speeds are accurate, all my features work just fine, my screen has been replaced with a Maxwell, it has new grease and all that good stuff. Factory trained is more of a "certification." Sort of like my "JW Rufolo's Institute of Occupational Safety and Health" certification I have in Evacuation Training. What makes Sherry or Don better than Youxin? Is there some special stamp of approval I'll get when my camera comes back? Will my camera somehow perform better than someone who just had a CLA? Doubtful. In fact, Sherry royally screwed up an M4 and an M4-P camera on two different trips for a friend of mine who works at the counter. Ask him the next time you're there.

Are you saying that Youxin is not capable of performing an "overhaul?" Or that our tech isn't capable of performing a Rollei "overhaul," when in fact they both perform them on a regular basis when it is needed?

mpaniagua
12-13-2016, 08:55
I suppose it comes down to : Do is it worth it? Does the camera worth the thousands of dlls you are paying for them?Does having a Digital Leica worths the pain of having bad customer service? For me, it doesn't so I dont buy them. It's worth to some people, so they buy them and agree with their slow service. I stick with film Leicas that I know I can get serviced and repaired with third party people that I trust.


The big question is: If they doesn't worth it and you keep making comparation with other brands, why do you buy them? No one is forcing no one to buy them (no one is forcing me at least). There are many non-Leica full frame cameras that would take M lenses (currently use my Canon 6d with my M lenses)

That really puzzle me.

If you have something that you dont like about Leica, then let Leica know. If they dont provide what you are looking for, don support them, easy as that.


Regards.

Calzone
12-13-2016, 09:08
You are making a sophistic argument about your preferred technicians. You have not provided any evidence that a Fleenor treatment is any different from a Nippon or other treatment other than Fleenor saying it is.

The TL/DR of what you're saying (perhaps without knowing it) is that you are very susceptible to marketing and branding. As long as someone tells you you're getting 'the best' of something, you're willing to be fleeced and you'll take to the internet to let us all know how happy you are about it. Case and point: Piezography, waiting lists for hand made guitars, Peter Lugars (the best steak in Williamsburg can be found at St. Anslem), and the Leica SL.

The best part is it's not even very hard to just concede, "yes, it would be nice is Leica service was faster but it hasn't affected me personally so I accept it." Instead you're telling us to say, "thank you sir, may I have another?!" SMH.

SMH,

I do state facts that some repair people are factory trained and others are not, but that does seem to be discounted. I have used Nippon to repair cameras actually a lot. If you think I have a bias towards some repair specialists maybe, but it is based on personal experience not on other peoples' experiance. Perhaps loyalty is a better word than bias.

Also know I have quite a few Nikons for their durability, reliability, and low maintenance. In fact this is my first Leica service experience.

I can say I have minimized and limited the impact of long waiting, and protected my own best interests while many others have not. That's very different than asking for a beating.

How much exaggeration; and how much third person experience is being posted here? It would be crazy to say I don't think the waiting is long. Kind of funny the spins and distortions going on here.

I'm also laughing, but not at myself.

Cal

splitimageview
12-13-2016, 09:22
Bottom line is that for the price premium of a luxury brand, Leica should have a *faster* repair turnaround and better service than the other brands.

Period.

mpaniagua
12-13-2016, 09:31
I should have wings too but I dont have them :) If you dont like it, dont buy it. Sorry if it sounds hash, but there are plenty other camera brands to spend your dollars on.

jsrockit
12-13-2016, 09:36
I should have wings too but I dont have them :) If you dont like it, dont buy it. Sorry if it sounds hash, but there are plenty other camera brands to spend your dollars on.

Many of us former Leica users have. That said, I wouldn't not buy one in the future. The Q is very appealing and the M will always be special to me.

Robert Lai
12-13-2016, 09:42
I have rarely found a CLA to be worthwhile. The "problem" is usually the tip of the iceberg. Realize that all of the other components inside the camera are deteriorating / maladjusting themselves also. By the time a "problem" becomes obvious, there are many other issues present internally that a simple bandaid won't cure. Thus, I've found it quicker and cheaper in the long run to get a full overhaul, rather than CLA this, and CLA that, and CLA the 3rd thing that shows up, etc.

Leica is a small camera company. The same way that say, Ferrari is a small car company. They can't afford the staff and turnover of the big guys. Don't forget that Leica was almost completely bankrupt not a few years ago. Wild Heerbrugg bought them in the 1980s for the microscope division, with no interest at all in the photographic side. This was followed by numerous buyouts and bailouts. Leica is growing slowly again, but they've been budget constrained for ages. I appreciate that they've tried to keep up their quality throughout all of this.

For Canon (as an example), photography is a mere sideline, as they make office equipment, and a whole bunch of other items. They have the cash to spend.

mpaniagua
12-13-2016, 10:07
..I should have wings too but I dont have them ..

Many of us former Leica users have. That said, I wouldn't not buy one in the future. The Q is very appealing and the M will always be special to me.

You have wings? WHOAA cool!! :p . Sorry couldnt help myself. I get what you mean. I'm sticking with the M6. Have my doubts about M7 and not really interested on digital Leica. Q is very beautiful but still not my cup of tea.


Regards.

Calzone
12-13-2016, 10:18
What you have yet to explain to me is what your overhauled 3.5F does differently than my CLA'd 3.5E3 in terms of use? My speeds are accurate, all my features work just fine, my screen has been replaced with a Maxwell, it has new grease and all that good stuff. Factory trained is more of a "certification." Sort of like my "JW Rufolo's Institute of Occupational Safety and Health" certification I have in Evacuation Training. What makes Sherry or Don better than Youxin? Is there some special stamp of approval I'll get when my camera comes back? Will my camera somehow perform better than someone who just had a CLA? Doubtful. In fact, Sherry royally screwed up an M4 and an M4-P camera on two different trips for a friend of mine who works at the counter. Ask him the next time you're there.

Are you saying that Youxin is not capable of performing an "overhaul?" Or that our tech isn't capable of performing a Rollei "overhaul," when in fact they both perform them on a regular basis when it is needed?

Brennan,

My particular Rollie 3.5F is a "Whiteface" I bought at Adorama for $999.00. It looked like a Shelf Queen because it seemed unused, but when I got it home and loaded it with film the camera repeatedly jammed, and I basically was ready to return the camera for a refund. It was almost impossible to get a roll of film through the camera, and I ended up just throwing the film away.

I did the research and then discovered that I actually had stumbled into a remarkable camera, and learned then that I found a camera that was grossly mispriced. It was at this time that I found out I had a Whiteface, and it was worth a lot more than the cost of repair. Then I decided to figure out my options about a repair. I also did some research on Maxwell screens. All this was a learning process.

So I used some judgement, and my personal spin was that perhaps the long wait with Fleenor over other techs was because he was deemed very heavily as the best. This was not marketing, but happy third person experiences, and there were a lot of them. Harry was pleasent to communicate with, and he has a very good/outstanding reputation. So I had Harry evaluate the camera and he gave me an estimate.

I also choose Harry because of his factory trained credential and because he was a specialist and not a generalist. This was mostly due to feeling good about entering an area I did not feel comfortable in. In all my research that was rather extensive (boring day job) I read not one bad word, and that was not true for some others.

So in the end the shutter had to be overhauled and also the film transport. This camera got an overhaul because it needed it, the Maxwell screen was an option, and it was installed for free since other work was being performed. In this case the camera needed an overhaul, and I'm glad that Harry did it. Harry's reputation is so great that the sticker that inside the camera, Harry's trademark, means a lot of value added to any buyer.

The repairs totaled about $600.00 with the Maxwell screen so for little money I have a rare camera that I will keep over the long-long term. As far as getting overhauls I am guilty of spending money that might not have been required. Waiting for me is not a problem like it is for others. Just stating a fact because I always try to use good judgement: anyways at least good for me.

My famed Wetzlar M6 came off EBAY from a dealer with a dead frame counter. I shot it for a year with the dead frame counter, but one day for no apparent reason the rangefinder was off. So at that time I had it overhauled instead of just repaired. The plastic spring used on the frame counter on a M6 was replaced with a metal version from an earlier M-body by Sherry. It could be argued either way to just repair the camera, but I decided to go all the way. Which way is better? I can't answer that, but keep in mind that this camera is a keeper.

I did not mean to slander Youxin, He happens to have a fast turnaround on repairs. The point that I was trying to make is that Leica is not the only place where one can wait for a long time for a repair. From personal experience I will say that DAG is worse than Leica.

In my experiance I ordered some parts (M3 eyeglass protector and some sync) plugs. I waited and waited, and because the cost was so little I forgot about it, but eventually my parts came almost a year later. It was kinda funny. Evidently I got a note as an apology saying that they were out of stock. I would not feel good about sending any camera to DAG based on my experience.

I have no doubt, and I am aware of your associate's problems, it is just that I never had a bad experience with Sherry, and she still has a great reputation with me.

Know that I once owned a M6 HM with the 0.85 VF'er. When it jammed for no reason I went to Nippon to have it repaired, but I choose to trade the camera away eventually. Not every camera is a keeper.

Cal

splitimageview
12-13-2016, 10:24
Leica had the cash to spend, and put loads of it into Leica Park Wetzlar.

They could have easily put money into faster service turnaround and better repair departments, but they didn't.

Calzone
12-13-2016, 10:35
Leica is not 6 german men in a basement factory putting out as many handmade cameras as they can anymore. It's a worldwide luxury brand. They could develop a service and support structure but they have decided that their clientele isn't worth it. And it really isn't surprising when you have people in this very thread saying that their turn-around is completely acceptable.


SK,

The repair times can surely be improved, but using your analogy to Donald Trump, he is the President Elect, and what can I do about it?

Know that I'm not moving to Canada.

It is what it is.

Is getting my almost 4 year old Monochrom back after perhaps 8-10 weeks of waiting overhauled and with a sensor replacement for free a good deal? After almost four years of pleasure, warts and all. My cost?

Anyways a good deal for me? I think so.

Cal

Calzone
12-13-2016, 10:56
Oh. Are you a factory certified artist or do you just do good work?

I decided to respond to this.

I have a BA, a MA and a MFA. I have been around for a while, but I just consider myself a guy with a ponytail. I also have been working day-jobs all my life to support myself.

What is the point of your post? Personal attack? WHO ARE YOU?

Cal

jsrockit
12-13-2016, 11:01
Oh. Are you a factory certified artist or do you just do good work?

I think you have to take Cal's comments as light-hearted comments. It's mostly in good fun. As far as technicians go, I can see why being trained to do something would be a good thing. Sure, someone that was not factory trained might be good as well, I think if you have a choice... it's nice to have someone trained. I think that was Cal's point.

brennanphotoguy
12-13-2016, 11:16
Again, I don't want to sound like I'm bashing the brand or anything or any of the techs. I just feel like some of these things could be avoided. They had the money to build this crazy facility in Germany and can afford to continue popping up boutiques but they can't seem to get a pro services facility up and going. I can't afford to own a Monochrom at this point in time but at some point I'd like to and at some point it will probably need a service and I'd really like to not have to worry about stuff like this. For some, owning these products isn't a big deal but for some of us it's a privilege to use it and when something goes wrong it really sucks when you can't use your favorite or only tool to create images.

SaveKodak
12-13-2016, 11:19
I decided to respond to this.

I have a BA, a MA and a MFA. I have been around for a while, but I just consider myself a guy with a ponytail. I also have been working day-jobs all my life to support myself.

What is the point of your post? Personal attack? WHO ARE YOU?

Cal

Sounds like his point was well said and received. If two repair people do good work then slapping 'factory trained' on one is just gilding the lilly. There are no secrets inside Rolleiflex cameras. A qualified tech can do as good a job as someone who'd actually been to the factory 30+ years ago. Keep in mind the FX and GX were very different cameras from the F and whatever Henry learned all those decades ago is not exactly the same as knowing the secret ingredient to Bush's Baked Beans.

I got my 2.8E 2 or 3 years ago. Went to Panorama and had those charming Russians custom modify it to take Hasselblad prisms and finders and install a Maxwell that I ordered. Fast forward to now the shutter speeds are all great, the focus calibration is spot on, and everything is working smoothly. I spent probably $150-160 on the screen and the labor and was separated from my camera for 1 week. I use it for personal and professional work too so it's been around since I acquired it. It doesn't make a bit of difference to me whether or not my guy at Panorama says he's ''factory trained''. (this is not to denigrate Fleenor who is a great tech, I just think he takes too long).

jsrockit
12-13-2016, 11:22
They had the money to build this crazy facility in Germany and can afford to continue popping up boutiques but they can't seem to get a pro services facility up and going.

I'm not so sure they need a "pro" service, they just need better service. How many pros are using these? Should a pro be the only one who gets quick service? Just because I'm an amateur doesn't mean I don't love using my camera or that I don't rely on it / use it often.

I can't afford to own a Monochrom at this point in time but at some point I'd like to and at some point it will probably need a service and I'd really like to not have to worry about stuff like this. For some, owning these products isn't a big deal but for some of us it's a privilege to use it and when something goes wrong it really sucks when you can't use your favorite or only tool to create images.

Back when I used Leicas, this was the story I gave to Leica NJ. You know what? It worked. The work was done quickly and they often halved the fees that they quoted to me after explaining my situation. Honestly.

SaveKodak
12-13-2016, 11:23
The world can be a tough place for those who don't constantly improve and seek excellence.

Competition is fierce.

A person like Steve Jobs, with his vision, has changed the way photos are made. Others are left in the dust.

Lead, follow or get the heck out of the way.

Here is one company that changed the automobile industry:

http://www.toyota-global.com/company/toyota_traditions/quality/

My wife and I bought new a 1986 Toyota Corolla. We drove it for 16 years and it never had to be worked on with the dealer. Had maintenance items, that's it. Both our children drove it as teenagers and college. One time my son came home and said, "The car runs great. Not complaining Dad, but when I drive through a puddle of water, my pants get wet!"

I wish Leica made products like Toyota.

I loved my old Toyota! I have since fallen in love with Subaru though. But as to your point, absolutely. I always encourage people to, and like Apple used to say, "Think Different." Just because something is one way doesn't mean it must be, and conventional thinking is often wrong.

Robert Lai
12-13-2016, 11:24
Bill,
The camera equivalent of a Toyota is Canon / Nikon / Pentax. Built to a price, built reliably, and providing good value for money. I do own a Toyota Corolla as a daily commute vehicle. Works fine, but I do regularly bring it in to the dealer for its scheduled service. I drove over 100 miles each day, so I didn't want to be stuck in the middle of nowhere with a breakdown. Well, it did fail to start once, when it was only 2 years old. That was due to a faulty battery that died prematurely. All has been good since then.

A Leica is more like a Mercedes-Benz. Expensive, and requires more specialist technicians. Also built in Germany (well, some Mercedes are now built in Alabama, I think). You should be aware of the cost of service before you buy.

brennanphotoguy
12-13-2016, 11:25
I'm not so sure they need a "pro" service, they just need better service. How many pros are using these? Should a pro be the only one who gets quick service? Just because I'm an amateur doesn't mean I don't love using my camera or that I don't rely on it / use it often.



Back when I used Leicas, this was the story I gave to Leica NJ. You know what? It worked. The work was done quickly and they often halved the fees that they quoted to me after explaining my situation. Honestly.

I just define pro-service as having a loaner program of some kind and getting work done in a timely manner. Not necessarily something like CPS or NPS. I don't think Hasselblad has a pro service either but I feel like Leica could use their service model as a template for their own.

SaveKodak
12-13-2016, 11:25
I'm not so sure they need a "pro" service, they just need better service. How many pros are using these? Should a pro be the only one who gets quick service? Just because I'm an amateur doesn't mean I don't love using my camera or that I don't rely on it / use it often.



Back when I used Leicas, this was the story I gave to Leica NJ. You know what? It worked. The work was done quickly and they often halved the fees that they quoted to me after explaining my situation. Honestly.

A fair amount of people use them professionally just not for the same projects that they might use their Canikons. A lot of wedding and portrait people have one around. They're great for certain parts of the day.

Ko.Fe.
12-13-2016, 11:34
...products like Toyota.

Nothing stays the same anymore. Our 2006 American Sienna is above of any American made American van, but it eats tires, disks and pads and nowhere near fuel economy they proclaimed. Recalls are plenty.

Jobs is gone long time ago, after it Apple is not inventing anything new and phones are manufactured in China. I have seen pictures from other phone manufactures couple of years ago with IQ above of Apple latest one.
My iPhone turns off once it is getting slightly cold. The message it shows - "it is too hot" :mad:

Leica is very small camera, lenses manufacturer based in Germany. How good was Cosina service for American customers? I send e-mail to their official manufacturer representative in Canada. Dead end...

Calzone
12-13-2016, 11:34
You didn't mind dissing Youxin Ye because he wasn't factory certified and has a day job as an accountant to support himself.

My apologies again.

I was addressing Brennan's post specifically about how he grouped Youxin with others. I thought I was clear about that.

I apologized once, and I apologize again. In fact I even stated that he out of all of them Youxin seems to be the most timely: a complement. I was being challenged on my choices, and was specifically why I would make those choices. No insult intended.

I for one know what it is like to work a regular job to support myself. No shame in that.

The fact is that some repair people are specialists, some are factory certified, and some are full time repair as their primary profession. I was trying to distinguish some repair people over another specifically mentioned as an example from Brennan's post. Also know that I have no experience with Youxin, but the others I mentioned I do.

Cal

mpaniagua
12-13-2016, 11:37
...
A Leica is more like a Mercedes-Benz. Expensive, and requires more specialist technicians. Also built in Germany (well, some Mercedes are now built in Alabama, I think). You should be aware of the cost of service before you buy.

I think you had it right. Same issue than with cars, you should be aware of their service cost in money and time before you commit to a system. This topic (Leica customer service that many people dont like) has been discussed before so its a well know topic. You should be aware of that before you commit to a product like Digital Leica camera's.

Do one really, absolutetly need a EVF camera? Does your customer really is asking for that? I think thats a personal choice. If you cant live with the service cost in both time and money, dont step into something that may screw up the fun.

Just my pre coffee rant.

Regards.

jsrockit
12-13-2016, 11:39
I just define pro-service as having a loaner program of some kind and getting work done in a timely manner.

I understood that. However, if you are going to have the wait times they have, I don't think it matters if you are pro or not.

jsrockit
12-13-2016, 11:40
A fair amount of people use them professionally just not for the same projects that they might use their Canikons. A lot of wedding and portrait people have one around. They're great for certain parts of the day.

Sure, but that is not what I said. I was alluding to the fact that it might not be beneficial to make a pro service for Leica, but just better service for all users.

SaveKodak
12-13-2016, 11:43
Nothing stays the same anymore. Our 2006 American Sienna is above of any American made American van, but it eats tires, disks and pads and nowhere near fuel economy they proclaimed. Recalls are plenty.

Jobs is gone long time ago, after it Apple is not inventing anything new and phones are manufactured in China. I have seen pictures from other phone manufactures couple of years ago with IQ above of Apple latest one.
My iPhone turns off once it is getting slightly cold. The message it shows - "it is too hot" :mad:

Leica is very small camera, lenses manufacturer based in Germany. How good was Cosina service for American customers? I send e-mail to their official manufacturer representative in Canada. Dead end...

It's a myth that Leica is a small company. They have about 72 retail locations globally and a network of independent dealers, plus a brand new large facility in Germany (which if you listen to Press releases is housed by people who drink wine and think about improving Chinese camera phones...). They just don't want to spend the $ on post-purchase customer care.

SaveKodak
12-13-2016, 11:44
Sure, but that is not what I said. I was alluding to the fact that it might not be beneficial to make a pro service for Leica, but just better service for all users.

Semantics. Any improvement would be welcome. I never said they should have a mirror of NPS or CPS.

Calzone
12-13-2016, 11:52
I think you have to take Cal's comments as light-hearted comments. It's mostly in good fun. As far as technicians go, I can see why being trained to do something would be a good thing. Sure, someone that was not factory trained might be good as well, I think if you have a choice... it's nice to have someone trained. I think that was Cal's point.

John,

I was defining my reason for my choices specifically in answering Brennan's question. That was it.

I meant no insult to Youxin, but he was being grouped with others by Brennan. Clearly my choices not only annoy people; they also seem to have unintended consequences. I don't think I'm being arrogant here.

Being patient, waiting, and dealing with what it is, seems to offend a lot of people. Anyways I'm the one with skin in the game with a Monochrom getting a sensor replacement.

Also I need to repeat that Leica Service is not the only place that has long turnaround times.

Cal

jsrockit
12-13-2016, 12:00
Semantics. Any improvement would be welcome. I never said they should have a mirror of NPS or CPS.

Ok, I don't think I said that either.

Ko.Fe.
12-13-2016, 12:09
...They have about 72 retail locations globally and a network of independent dealers...

Leica is small company.

Lomography used to have one store in Toronto. I don't recall any Leica direct stores here. Some dealers.
Our local Canon Canada new place is most likely as big as Leica Germany.
And if company is as big as Fuji it is offering try before buy any camera and lens.

Calzone
12-13-2016, 12:19
Again, I don't want to sound like I'm bashing the brand or anything or any of the techs. I just feel like some of these things could be avoided. They had the money to build this crazy facility in Germany and can afford to continue popping up boutiques but they can't seem to get a pro services facility up and going. I can't afford to own a Monochrom at this point in time but at some point I'd like to and at some point it will probably need a service and I'd really like to not have to worry about stuff like this. For some, owning these products isn't a big deal but for some of us it's a privilege to use it and when something goes wrong it really sucks when you can't use your favorite or only tool to create images.

Brennan,

I'm with you that a premium brand should support premium service. If I were running Leica, service would be definitely more important.

My situation is different, but know I still feel privileged. I may have all this gear one can dream about, but guess where all my disposable income goes? I'm getting old, so its now or never/use it or loose it. For me the time is now. Hopefully it will happen for you when you are younger. It was about 9 years ago I only owned a Nikon F3P that I still own and use, and I only owned one camera. At that time I was 50.

In the almost 4 years I have owned my Monochrom the only problems I have had are with the usual bugs everyone knows about. Never a problem. Owning a Monochrom still seems like a dream come true. I would expect after sensor replacement many-many more years of use and pleasure.

Anyways I wish for you the best in the spirit of the holidays.

Cal

NeonKnight
12-13-2016, 12:24
Anyone notice that the M system is not available on the Leica website? Just went there today to get a PDF brochure and all the M stuff seems to 404 on me. The other camera systems are still loading.

Calzone
12-13-2016, 12:25
I think you had it right. Same issue than with cars, you should be aware of their service cost in money and time before you commit to a system. This topic (Leica customer service that many people dont like) has been discussed before so its a well know topic. You should be aware of that before you commit to a product like Digital Leica camera's.

Do one really, absolutetly need a EVF camera? Does your customer really is asking for that? I think thats a personal choice. If you cant live with the service cost in both time and money, dont step into something that may screw up the fun.

Just my pre coffee rant.

Regards.

Agree. That's why I have other cameras. I've downsized some Leica gear to have a better balance for sustainability.

There's the good, the bad, and the ugly. I still love Leica Digital though.

Cal

jaapv
12-13-2016, 12:31
Again, I don't want to sound like I'm bashing the brand or anything or any of the techs. I just feel like some of these things could be avoided. They had the money to build this crazy facility in Germany and can afford to continue popping up boutiques but they can't seem to get a pro services facility up and going. I can't afford to own a Monochrom at this point in time but at some point I'd like to and at some point it will probably need a service and I'd really like to not have to worry about stuff like this. For some, owning these products isn't a big deal but for some of us it's a privilege to use it and when something goes wrong it really sucks when you can't use your favorite or only tool to create images.
Errr.. They do have a pro service, complete with loaners and expedited repairs. One just has to register beforehand. And they didn't build, but rent the facility in Germany from a consortium (which includes the real-estate branch of Mr. Kaufmann's interests)

brennanphotoguy
12-13-2016, 12:32
They might have a pro service in Europe but they don't here. They built the Wetzlar Park. That money didn't come from nowhere.

jaapv
12-13-2016, 12:43
It's a myth that Leica is a small company. They have about 72 retail locations globally and a network of independent dealers, plus a brand new large facility in Germany (which if you listen to Press releases is housed by people who drink wine and think about improving Chinese camera phones...). They just don't want to spend the $ on post-purchase customer care.They have about 0.5% of the camera market. What is your definition of small?

splitimageview
12-13-2016, 12:46
One way or the other, Leica has failed to provide adequate service for their customers.

When I sent in my Q in February it went via an authorized dealer who is quite used to the lack of support. The poor service is the norm, even if you are one of Leica's larger dealers.

At the prices that one pays for new Leica gear, it's just unacceptable.

It has nothing to do with whether Leica is 'small' or 'large' or anything in between, and it has nothing at all to do with market share.

Since when is small market share an excuse for poor to mediocre service?

Clearly, Leica's priorities lie elsewhere, or perhaps there are simply enough customers who continue to buy regardless of the poor service, which means they have no incentive to improve.

Huss
12-13-2016, 12:50
O

Since when is small market share an excuse for poor to mediocre service?



It's not poor service. It's special luxury service. Like waiting in line outside a fancy nightclub instead of going to a pub down the street with all the other riff raff.

:D

splitimageview
12-13-2016, 12:54
Oh well, it was a privilege being in line for six months. :)

SaveKodak
12-13-2016, 12:55
They have about 0.5% of the camera market. What is your definition of small?

Hasselblad is a small company. Phase One is a small company. Both of these have fabulous post-purchase customer support. Leica is a large company (though not as large as others) who's users keep calling small to justify very poor service and support.

jsrockit
12-13-2016, 13:12
Anyone notice that the M system is not available on the Leica website? Just went there today to get a PDF brochure and all the M stuff seems to 404 on me. The other camera systems are still loading.

Wow, same for me. :eek: maybe they announce the M10 tonight? ;)

jaapv
12-13-2016, 16:55
Still available on the UK and German sites. Are they boycotting the USA?

Huss
12-13-2016, 17:35
Still available on the UK and German sites. Are they boycotting the USA?


This is what happens when we start a thread complaining about service!
The mothership heard and is not happy..
;)

It works fine here in the US, just checked it:


https://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/About-the-M-System

brennanphotoguy
12-14-2016, 04:17
Or maybe it's Trump.

css9450
12-14-2016, 04:55
They have about 0.5% of the camera market. What is your definition of small?

We have Leica survey equipment here at work and Leica microscopes in our lab, and recently when I was at the eye doctor I noticed they had specialty instruments by Leica. Is "Leica Camera" still a sister firm of the company that made all that other stuff, or are they separate? I wonder if all those other products are supported by better service than the cameras are.

robert blu
12-14-2016, 05:11
A few weeks ago seeking info about the Leica T/TL I asked in the Milan Leica Store in case of dust on sensor if they could clean it for me because I'm not very good in manual operations and I'm afraid to scratch or damage it.

The answer was "sure, no problem you bring here the camera and we'll send it to Germany for you"

Hmmm, not sure this is the service I was expecting...

robert

robert blu
12-14-2016, 05:15
Errr.. They do have a pro service, complete with loaners and expedited repairs. One just has to register beforehand. And they didn't build, but rent the facility in Germany from a consortium (which includes the real-estate branch of Mr. Kaufmann's interests)

Please could you direct me to a site where this service is advertised and where they inform customer about it I? And I would like to know if it's only for professional os for amateur as well?

Thanks in advance

robert

PS: not to be misunderstood, of course I trust what you say but I find strange that such an important service is not "visible"

Calzone
12-14-2016, 06:15
Oh well, it was a privilege being in line for six months. :)

Actually it is a privilege to wait in line for six months, then complain, when one only had to get on a waiting list and only wait either 6-8 or 8-10 weeks for a sensor replacement.:):):)

Cal

splitimageview
12-14-2016, 06:17
I've decided to send in my Q again just for the privilege of waiting in line for a promised 3-4 weeks, I hope it takes more than six months this time, and I promise to enjoy this privilege and will refrain from being a Leica justice warrior. I will also write that 100 times on the blackboard.

:)

Calzone
12-14-2016, 06:24
A few weeks ago seeking info about the Leica T/TL I asked in the Milan Leica Store in case of dust on sensor if they could clean it for me because I'm not very good in manual operations and I'm afraid to scratch or damage it.

The answer was "sure, no problem you bring here the camera and we'll send it to Germany for you"

Hmmm, not sure this is the service I was expecting...

robert

Robert,

I wish I could help. I bought an Visible Dust cleaning system. Care is required, but cleaning a sensor is not that difficult. Too bad we are oceans apart. I have a kit that includes an illuminated magnifier so any dirt, dust or oil is visible.

Also here in NYC the guys in the Leica Store SoHo are very-very helpful. I was updating my firmware and called with a question. I spoke with John who answered my question that relieved my guessing. The crew at my Leica Store are very helpful.

Cal

Duane Pandorf
12-14-2016, 06:25
I just sent my 35 year old Rolex in for service and I was surprised that they don't offer 2-3 day turn around service. Who should I call to complain about such horrible slow service? Plus, no telling how much it will cost? I guess I should have just bought a Timex or Seiko timepiece as I could buy a drawer full of them instead of what I will pay for the Rolex repair. Btw, they do the same thing, tell time!

:rolleyes:

Calzone
12-14-2016, 06:27
I've decided to send in my Q again just for the privilege of waiting in line for a promised 3-4 weeks, I hope it takes more than six months this time, and I promise to enjoy this privilege and will refrain from being a Leica justice warrior. I will also write that 100 times on the blackboard.

:)

Sorry to hear about your difficulties. The "Q" is an interesting camera. Wishing you all the best.

Cal

robert blu
12-14-2016, 06:29
Robert,
I wish I could help.
Cal

Thanks Cal, you are always helpful. For the moment I still shoot film and have a new sensor each shot :) LOL
But my point is Leica has a beautiful shop, nice windows, red and black colors, nice exhibitions in the gallery which I visit quite regularly but no technical service available locally, at least for small things like this or RF alignment...

robert

css9450
12-14-2016, 06:36
I just sent my 35 year old Rolex in for service and I was surprised that they don't offer 2-3 day turn around service. Who should I call to complain about such horrible slow service? Plus, no telling how much it will cost? I guess I should have just bought a Timex or Seiko timepiece as I could buy a drawer full of them instead of what I will pay for the Rolex repair. Btw, they do the same thing, tell time!



Would have been funnier if it were your two year old Rolex, not 35...

Calzone
12-14-2016, 06:37
I just sent my 35 year old Rolex in for service and I was surprised that they don't offer 2-3 day turn around service. Who should I call to complain about such horrible slow service? Plus, no telling how much it will cost? I guess I should have just bought a Timex or Seiko timepiece as I could buy a drawer full of them instead of what I will pay for the Rolex repair. Btw, they do the same thing, tell time!

:rolleyes:

Duane,

Wow a nice vintage Rolex. Might I ask how many times has it needed service over its 35 year life?

Had my Panerai serviced. I at least got an estimate. Took about 2 1/2 months for the turnaround. The watch came back great, had to replace a dried out strap, and I only got a few months in when I cracked the crystal.

Anyways when the crystal gets replaced it will be costly.

My Submariner has been running non stop for 12 years. No service over ever. My watch is beginning to run a little fast.

Cal

Calzone
12-14-2016, 06:41
Thanks Cal, you are always helpful. For the moment I still shoot film and have a new sensor each shot :) LOL
But my point is Leica has a beautiful shop, nice windows, red and black colors, nice exhibitions in the gallery which I visit quite regularly but no technical service available locally, at least for small things like this or RF alignment...

robert

Robert,

Come to NYC. Here we have Nippon Camera Clinic. It is like having a Japanese camera repair facility. Service is usually a week for turnaround, and if you want I know there is a rush service because they deal with many pros. Perhaps not inexpensive, but good.

Cal

robert blu
12-14-2016, 06:49
Robert,
Come to NYC. ..

Cal

When we were in NYC a few years ago I brought my Polaroid SX70 which I was not able to have repaired in Italy to this place (http://www.phototech.com) and they did the work within the week of my stay. Do you know them? Not too far from B&H
Not sure when next visit to NYC will be, maybe 2017...

robert

Duane Pandorf
12-14-2016, 06:58
Duane,

Wow a nice vintage Rolex. Might I ask how many times has it needed service over its 35 year life?

Had my Panerai serviced. I at least got an estimate. Took about 2 1/2 months for the turnaround. The watch came back great, had to replace a dried out strap, and I only got a few months in when I cracked the crystal.

Anyways when the crystal gets replaced it will be costly.

My Submariner has been running non stop for 12 years. No service over ever. My watch is beginning to run a little fast.

Cal

I'm cheap so I've not had the watch serviced as often as I should over its life. My best friend and I each bought our Rolex GMT Masters as gifts to ourselves when we earned our Navy Wings of Gold. I still have the receipt and we paid a little over $800. The watch today sells new for over $8k. I expect to pay $800 or so for the service and know the watch on return will be like new.

Btw, my Leica M-E (that I bought new 3 years ago) has been to NJ twice for sensor replacement. A few months after purchasing the camera it developed issues and it took about 6 weeks. And then this last time I waited till the newest sensor was available before I sent it in for repair. Now that took a bit longer but I was able to talk NJ into a M240 loaner. I was also offered the opportunity to upgrade to the newer CMOS Ms but declined as I prefer my CCD M.

Robert Lai
12-14-2016, 07:29
For somebody who asked earlier, Leica Geosystems and the Microscope makers are all separate companies with no relationship (except in name) to the camera maker.

Duane Pandorf
12-14-2016, 07:50
I completely get the Leica thing and would hand over my $8K. But watches?! They sure don't do much.

I was so happy when mobile phones arrived and eliminated the need to wear one.

John

I too agree, as what I didn't mention before, is I currently wear an Apple Watch in the cockpit as I can easily see the damn hands at night and with the flick of the wrist to activate the watch face is easier than digging out my phone to see the time. Plus, the watch is easily configured to give me UTC time or any other time zone in the world along with the latest aviation weather.

Then there are the personality studies that have shown that type "A" personalities always have to wear a time piece. (Can't find the source at the moment but maybe just an old wives tale that some of us old fighter pilots like to claim as fact.) :D

Emile de Leon
12-14-2016, 08:47
Rolex is $600 for overhaul..and 4 to 6 week turnaround...and rarely does anything go wrong..
Patek /VC/JLC etc...6 to 9 mos. overhaul turnaround and 1K minimum if you are lucky..and they they need a service every 2 to 3 years...
Just got my 1st Rolex for my 60th b-day 8 mos ago..I didn't wear a watch for over 30 years..didn't need it..but I have to say..there is definitely something to be said about a great watch on your wrist..
I like having a reliable watch on my wrist..better than a cam I cant trust..or cant use for 6 mos. at a time..so that means..Sony and Lumix w/ Leica lenses..and Rolex..

Calzone
12-14-2016, 10:13
I'm cheap so I've not had the watch serviced as often as I should over its life. My best friend and I each bought our Rolex GMT Masters as gifts to ourselves when we earned our Navy Wings of Gold. I still have the receipt and we paid a little over $800. The watch today sells new for over $8k. I expect to pay $800 or so for the service and know the watch on return will be like new.

Btw, my Leica M-E (that I bought new 3 years ago) has been to NJ twice for sensor replacement. A few months after purchasing the camera it developed issues and it took about 6 weeks. And then this last time I waited till the newest sensor was available before I sent it in for repair. Now that took a bit longer but I was able to talk NJ into a M240 loaner. I was also offered the opportunity to upgrade to the newer CMOS Ms but declined as I prefer my CCD M.

Duane,

I vaguely remember when you posted about your options. Glad to hear that your patience paid off.

It does seem like $800 is around the going rate for a luxury watch repair. My Panerai GMT 8-day is a manual wind watch. It kept remarkable time for the first 2 years, within a second or two within a month. It featured an in house movement, but it sometimes would loose a lot of time after those initial two years. I suspect the watch would stop. Basically a rather complicated three barrel design to store so much energy. Although an 8-day it really could store 10 days worth of energy and keep within a second or two a month.

So imagine a big Paneria on a skinny Asian wrist.

Anyways I used zero APR offers that extended to two years to buy my watches, and also two Cartiers for my gal. It was a deal of a lifetime that made it easy.

Thank you for your service. I worked at Grumman for 17 years, and even though I was not in the military, vets surely helped me become a man, taught me a lot, and were a great influence.

Cal

Calzone
12-14-2016, 10:29
I completely get the Leica thing and would hand over my $8K for the right one. But watches?! They sure don't do much.

I was so happy when mobile phones arrived and eliminated the need to wear one.

John

John,

I don't have much use for a cell phone, let alone a smart phone. For me the world would be a better place without them.

Mostly sentimental value. My dad was poor and illiterate, but my sister took him to Hong Kong when he was about 70 and he came back with a Rolex. This was a man who worked tirelessly his whole life, he brought up 5 children, somehow was able to buy a house pay it off, and only owned one brand new car his whole life.

Anyways I was my dad's caretaker for a while, and I kinda later learned that I was likely my dad's favorite, even though I wasn't the oldest, because I was a hell raiser and angry kid, and I guess parents inadvertantly love the most the kid they should really hate. I was an aweful kid.

Anyways when my dad passed my oldest brother kinda took all my dad's belongings. My dad had signed over the house to me, but I sold it to my brother so my dad had the money. The one thing I wanted was his Rolex.

Cal

brennanphotoguy
12-14-2016, 10:36
Having sentimental value tied up in objects like this make them lose their monetary value for me because I know that I'd never sell them so I don't even think about it. That's where my M3, IIIg and Rollei came from. They will always remain a constant for me. On top of that we have my grandfather's WWII issue 1911 in OG WWI spec which is supposed to make it extremely valuable also a .45 1911 Gold Cup and .38 1911 Gold Cup Mid-Range gun. I shot a box of ammo through each of them the last time I was home. I think it makes the experience even more cool using things that have historical or immense sentimental value.

Huss
12-14-2016, 10:41
The fact that this thread has strayed to talking about fancy watches shows exactly what the problem is. Digital Leicas are seen as fancy baubles by the majority of their owners and so they have no problem with the wait time.
If the majority of owners saw them as cameras, things would change with the way Leica services them.

Guess what? A Nikon D5 costs $6000. Do users of the D5 expect a 6 month turn around for service because it cost $6000 like some Leica owners here do? And apparently are proud of? NO! They get it back in 3-7 days. And get back to work taking photos.

brennanphotoguy
12-14-2016, 10:49
I'm pretty sure it strayed because everyone was more or less in agreement that the wait time shouldn't take that much time and there isn't an excuse.

Calzone
12-14-2016, 11:04
Having sentimental value tied up in objects like this make them lose their monetary value for me because I know that I'd never sell them so I don't even think about it. That's where my M3, IIIg and Rollei came from. They will always remain a constant for me. On top of that we have my grandfather's WWII issue 1911 in OG WWI spec which is supposed to make it extremely valuable also a .45 1911 Gold Cup and .38 1911 Gold Cup Mid-Range gun. I shot a box of ammo through each of them the last time I was home. I think it makes the experience even more cool using things that have historical or immense sentimental value.

Brennan,

Some very cool treasures.

Read the book "Cold Mountain." A gun called a LaMatt has an interesting history and is key to the story. Great southern story telling.

History surely is important.

Cal

Calzone
12-14-2016, 11:09
I'm pretty sure it strayed because everyone was more or less in agreement that the wait time shouldn't take that much time and there isn't an excuse.

I agree.

But some interesting stuff came out.

Perhaps because I have so much fancy babbles as Huss says, I kinda know that I likely have more than my fair share. I really have little to complain about. I know I am a very lucky guy.

Cal

Ko.Fe.
12-14-2016, 11:37
The fact that this thread has strayed to talking about fancy watches shows exactly what the problem is. Digital Leicas are seen as fancy baubles by the majority of their owners and so they have no problem with the wait time.
If the majority of owners saw them as cameras, things would change with the way Leica services them.

Guess what? A Nikon D5 costs $6000. Do users of the D5 expect a 6 month turn around for service because it cost $6000 like some Leica owners here do? And apparently are proud of? NO! They get it back in 3-7 days. And get back to work taking photos.

Those who owns 6 K$ Leica and Nikon or even Canon (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1220852-REG/canon_eos_1d_x_mark_ii.html) to use as cameras to generate income or at least some regular recognition usually have backup camera.
For them it is not how long the service will take, but how long it is to reach for another camera and not miss the shot on very same day and location.

But if you own 6 K$ camera and no backup it is same as owning jewelry, which were compared to luxury watches here.
IMO.

Calzone
12-14-2016, 11:43
Those who owns 6 K$ Leica and Nikon or even Canon (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1220852-REG/canon_eos_1d_x_mark_ii.html) to use as cameras to generate income or at least some regular recognition usually have backup camera.
For them it is not how long the service will take, but how long it is to reach for another camera and not miss the shot on very same day and location.

But if you own 6 K$ camera and no backup it is same as owning jewelry, which were compared to luxury watches here.
IMO.

I kinda phased in the purchase of a SL to cover the absence of my Monochrom. I have sporatic income from photography, but I need a digital for my gal's blog. In a way the sporatic income covers the cost of the SL.

Of course I still have mucho film cameras. I find what you say is true. I'm not in a crisis, but cameras surely are important to me.

Cal

x-ray
12-14-2016, 14:32
The fact that this thread has strayed to talking about fancy watches shows exactly what the problem is. Digital Leicas are seen as fancy baubles by the majority of their owners and so they have no problem with the wait time.
If the majority of owners saw them as cameras, things would change with the way Leica services them.

Guess what? A Nikon D5 costs $6000. Do users of the D5 expect a 6 month turn around for service because it cost $6000 like some Leica owners here do? And apparently are proud of? NO! They get it back in 3-7 days. And get back to work taking photos.

The majority of Leica owners are amateurs that don't make a living with them. If they did ti would be a totally different thing too. This is why I'll not be buying another new Leica product and especially a digital one.

+1 for me.

jaapv
12-14-2016, 15:52
Guess what? A Nikon D5 costs $6000. Do users of the D5 expect a 6 month turn around for service because it cost $6000 like some Leica owners here do? And apparently are proud of? NO! They get it back in 3-7 days. And get back to work taking photos.
Like registered professionals with Leica do....:rolleyes:
Leica can be pretty good at such things. I'm not a professional, but when my M9 sensor died a week before I was off to Afrika for a month they had a loaner, brand new, in my hands within a few days.

Huss
12-14-2016, 17:23
Like registered professionals with Leica do....:rolleyes:
Leica can be pretty good at such things. I'm not a professional, but when my M9 sensor died a week before I was off to Afrika for a month they had a loaner, brand new, in my hands within a few days.

And they can be pretty lousy at such things too. When my M-E broke after only 3 months of use, Leica USA denied they had a loaner program, and offered me nothing.

The Leica Professional Business Unit was launched only three months ago, and does not cover the M series.

"The Professional Business Unit combines marketing and sales activities in the B2B sector. This includes the Leica S medium format system, the mirrorless Leica SL-System and the entire product portfolio of the Leica Camera AG subsidiary, Sinar Photography. Sinar Photography AG is the leading manufacturer of view cameras and offers complete digital solutions comprising cameras, lenses, digital backs and shutter systems to professional workflow software."

So.. back to square one. Lousy service for the vast majority of their customers. Want decent service? Step up to a Leica S/SL series camera or use Nikon/Canon.

Stephen G
12-14-2016, 18:39
There's quite a thread on another forum about Leica (lack of) Service
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/59271-leica-service-4.html

Quite disappointing.

Huss
12-14-2016, 19:00
There's quite a thread on another forum about Leica (lack of) Service
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/59271-leica-service-4.html

Quite disappointing.

Maybe someone should post on that thread and tell them to just register with the professional service..
:rolleyes:

(being sarcastic in case the internet doesn't pick up on that)

jaapv
12-14-2016, 23:13
If you read the thread on LUF you find that there are professionals on that thread reporting that the service works just fine. There is even one post detailing how to register. It also shows that experiences vary greatly, and that the problems are mainly with Leica USA.

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/264856-leica-repair-wait-times/

LChanyungco
12-14-2016, 23:29
g.a.s. cured.


Yeah, none of the well known techs work on them due to the electronics from what I'm told.

jaapv
12-14-2016, 23:38
Hasselblad is a small company. Phase One is a small company. Both of these have fabulous post-purchase customer support. Leica is a large company (though not as large as others) who's users keep calling small to justify very poor service and support.

Really? Hasselblad is a subdivision of Shriro, a worldwide company with 3500 employees.

Both Phase One and Hasselblad are owned by Silverfleet Equity. Not the same as Leica... 1500 employees worldwide.

Michael Markey
12-15-2016, 00:10
It also shows that experiences vary greatly, and that the problems are mainly with Leica USA.

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/264856-leica-repair-wait-times/

In that case why aren`t these problems being addressed.

This thread has been a constant for some time with enough dissatisfied customers to suggest that Leica USA has an issue.

It doesn`t really matter how large or small the company is.
Nobody is interested in excuses they need to start coming up with a solution.

robert blu
12-15-2016, 02:43
The main question is not if Leica is a small or large company but if a few month waiting fora repair of a 6/7 K EUR tool in "normal" or not for photographers.

As I already wrote Leica invested a lot of money in shops and boutiques and not much in developing a better customer service. But the management is not stupid, company was almost bankrupt a few years ago and now makes profit.

So it is a deliberate option they selected and as it seems it pays back the company.

And as far for a loaner service it is something a little bit, opps very foggy, no mention in Leica web site, no mention even in the Leica shops. Maybe it's just reserved to customer who bought more than xx K EUR and have special personal relationship within Leica.

But all of this is a well known things and it's up to us to decide if buy or not, no one is forced...

robert

jaapv
12-15-2016, 04:02
Looking around the Internet it appears one must be a LUF member to get good service, and RFF is a worst-case scenario...:angel::p

Huss
12-15-2016, 08:29
Looking around the Internet it appears one must be a LUF member to get good service, and RFF is a worst-case scenario...:angel::p

Actually looking around the internet it seems that good service is extremely rare. RFF is not a bubble, it's just another forum, and Leica users here are also on other forums including LUF.

Think about what you just said. Someone that already has spent maybe $10,000, maybe $20,000 on Leica equipment (easy to do with just one camera and a couple of lenses) is not guaranteed good service unless they then join something called LUF. And all that is is a users' group.
How insane is that?

Luke_Miller
12-15-2016, 08:39
Pretty sure jaapv was speaking in jest - thus the emoticons. Plenty of LUF members experience poor service from Leica NJ. I'm one of them. :(

Emile de Leon
12-15-2016, 09:06
Leica is an equal opportunity aftersales disappointment company...they spare no one! :cool:

mpaniagua
12-15-2016, 09:40
...
But all of this is a well known things and it's up to us to decide if buy or not, no one is forced...

robert


+1

Freewill. Give your hard earned dollars (or euro, pesos, yen,etc.) to a company that suit you and fullfil your needs. If Leica doesn't dont buy from them, or stick to film cameras, which you can overhaul and CLA from third party companies.

Also, if you are an actual customer, try to address your complains to Leica USA or Germany. Dont know if Leica Germany has anything to do with Leica USA, but I guess it will be more useful that just posting on a Forum. Remember that Leica is a business, so they will do thing that will increase their sales or give them money.


Regards.

Marcelo