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CameraQuest
11-09-2015, 09:55
Will Leica continue with tradition's optical rangefinder,

or enter the brave new world of digital EVF rangefinders?

Darthfeeble
11-09-2015, 10:09
Who knows? Who cares? They are becoming good enough that I don't think it will matter. Certainly the advantages are great, DOF preview, exposure verification and so on.

pechelman
11-09-2015, 10:35
i might go out on a limb here to say that a camera without an optical viewfinder AND framelines could never be considered a true successor to the M line of cameras. To me, that's what an M camera is. It is part of its DNA.

jsrockit
11-09-2015, 10:37
Yes, it will. Now that the SL exists, they can even go back to not including an EVF option / video on the M. ;)

Tijmendal
11-09-2015, 10:38
I've only used a couple electronic viewfinders over the years, most recently of the Sony A7 II, a camera that was released in the last year. I think (but correct me if I'm wrong) it has one of the most advanced EVF's out there and I thought it was severely lacking. It will be another couple years before they're good enough.

taemo
11-09-2015, 10:41
sorry for sounding ignorant here but is there such a thing as electronic rangefinder?
how does it differ to an optical RF?
laser for measuring distance or something like what Fuji offers with the X100T?
at that point would it still be considered a rangefinder or basically a mirrorless camera?

traveler_101
11-09-2015, 10:43
I've only used a couple electronic viewfinders over the years, most recently of the Sony A7 II, a camera that was released in the last year. I think (but correct me if I'm wrong) it has one of the most advanced EVF's out there and I thought it was severely lacking. It will be another couple years before they're good enough.

I wouldn't call SONY one of the best out there. Try Panasonic or Olympus.

sevo
11-09-2015, 11:01
sorry for sounding ignorant here but is there such a thing as electronic rangefinder?
how does it differ to an optical RF?


Yes - indeed every AF point-and-shoot camera employed one. There are (or were) quite a few different systems - active (UV, laser and IR projecting) as well as passive. A few (most notably the Contax G series ones) among the latter even came pretty close to replicating a superimposed image rangefinder as common in RF cameras, with a PD sensor replacing the eye.

And then there is the opposite - simulated superimposed image rangefinders in a electronic viewfinder.

squirrel$$$bandit
11-09-2015, 12:11
The Sony EVF is indeed pretty nice, but it sounds like the SL's is better still.

I suspect Leica will eventually release an M-inspired EVF camera based on the innards of the SL and the style of the Q, and will also continue to offer optical-rangefinder M cameras. A hybrid viewfinder could be interesting too...

Keith
11-09-2015, 14:12
I think it will but I also think there will be a much better EVF available for it and electronics in the camera to support it. I have the Oly vesrsion for my 240 and while I'm happy with the optical quality the blackout lag after each exposure is a right PITA.

The 240 isn't far off being the perfect camera for me ... a slight improvement in sensor technology to broaden the ISO range and address the EVF blackout and I see a perfect camera provided it retains the optical rangefinder.

ferider
11-09-2015, 14:31
Will Leica continue with tradition's optical rangefinder ?

Yes. Leica will avoid competing with the SL.

They only need to upgrade the 240 sensor to be BSI, improve the external EVF, and it will sell for > 10k US with waiting lists. Maybe they'll call it Typ 750.

Roland.

Dante_Stella
11-10-2015, 05:13
Is anyone even putting BSI in FX bodies? I thought that Sony said at some point that there was little benefit to that.

Dante

krötenblender
11-10-2015, 06:04
If it has no optical finder and mechanical RF, it is not the successor of the M, but another camera. I wouldn't care about it.

sevo
11-10-2015, 06:38
Is anyone even putting BSI in FX bodies? I thought that Sony said at some point that there was little benefit to that.

Dante

Sony does it, in the A7RII.

willie_901
11-10-2015, 07:08
There is no reason for Leica to abandon the mechanical, optical RF.

Leica is very good at manufacturing and servicing their RFs
People who purchase new Leica RF bodies are not detered by the cost now and won't be detered in the future should the cost increase
The cost probably will increase since demand for mechanical RF bodies will slowly, but surely, decrease. As time goes by more and more people will accept EVF technologies because the technology will improve and because they use EVFs for everything else This does not imply the EVF will ever become completely equal to OVFs in function. Rather it suggests people won't care about the differences and there will be a supply of used OVF bodies for those who do.

Rob-F
11-10-2015, 07:13
i might go out on a limb here to say that a camera without an optical viewfinder AND framelines could never be considered a true successor to the M line of cameras. To me, that's what an M camera is. It is part of its DNA.

What pechelman said. A Leica M without an optical finder is like a Stradivarius without a bow.

jsrockit
11-10-2015, 07:44
A Leica M without an optical finder is like a Stradivarius without a bow.

They will both still look nice on the shelf though... ;)

Mcary
11-10-2015, 08:29
Both!

M240's sucessor will have a traditional optical rangefinder while a model with some type of electronic rangefinder EVF that mimics a traditional RF will be introduced as the successor to the M-E.

Mimics: mean it works/focus like a traditional M style rangefinder camera rather then just looking like one.

JMO :)

jaapv
11-10-2015, 08:37
Interesting - where did you get that information?

The latest patent filed by Leica, however, is an optical-digital hybrid rangefinder system.

Mcary
11-10-2015, 08:46
Interesting - where did you get that information?

The latest patent filed by Leica, however, is an optical-digital hybrid rangefinder system.

LOL JMO :)

dct
11-10-2015, 08:54
As long as I can look through a viewfinder lens and adjust focus manually using a 2nd image I would call it a RF camera, say Leica M. If the viewfinder changes to a small display only (called EVF), it doesn't fit the specification any more of a real RF camera IMHO.

That's why I voted: still having an optical VF.

Roger Hicks
11-10-2015, 11:57
If it has no optical finder and mechanical RF, it is not the successor of the M, but another camera.
Precisely. How could it call itself an M-series? Though I suppose there are always the M1, MD, MDa...

Cheers,

R.

CameraQuest
11-10-2015, 12:42
If it has no optical finder and mechanical RF, it is not the successor of the M, but another camera.

As fans of the traditional M naming scheme learned with the M240, today's Leica management will name cameras whatever they like even it makes no sense.

Likewise the M240's successor is whatever management says it is, optical viewfinder or no.

DougFord
11-10-2015, 13:22
When you look through the viewfinder on the successor to the 240M, I think you'll have viewing access to both natural and artificial light sources of your subject.
I'd expect Leica(sonic) to come up with a VF solution as intelligent and commonsensical as their manual focus solution is on the Q.

pechelman
11-10-2015, 14:52
As fans of the traditional M naming scheme learned with the M240, today's Leica management will name cameras whatever they like even it makes no sense.

Likewise the M240's successor is whatever management says it is, optical viewfinder or no.

While I hate hypotheticals as much as the next guy;
Should a Leica SL have been labeled as a Leica M, do you really think anyone would truly considered that to be part of the "M Family"?

As to the term successor, I think there's a bit of ambiguity in that itself.
On one hand it could mean the camera that will replace and make the M line of cameras discontinued or obsolete, which I think you might be leaning toward. On the other, it means what I think most people are interpreting, that it is the next line in the M family of cameras.

I.e The successor in the Tudor family after Henry VIII died was Edward VI (still a Tudor). However, the successor to the Tudor family after Elizabeth I was James I from the House of Stuart.

Perhaps this is the better question for this thread.
Is Leica done with what we all know as the M Family of cameras or do they have another family of camera in the works with which it shall replace?


And you are right, Leica can call it whatever they want, but that doesnt mean the rest of the people will actually consider it to be part of the same M camera family if it doesnt have some form of OVF.


As for the name of the most recent Leica M, I always thought it was simply "M" and that it was then further denoted as the "Type 240". Presumably "240" because it's 24 megapix and simply "M" because they didnt want to goto double digits with M10 and to streamline their camera lineup with simple Alpha designation (rather than Alpha - Numeric). M240 seems like the moniker it has taken on the interwebs. Just like the M9M or MM or whatever people refer to when discussing the 1st vs 2nd Monochrom.

jaapv
11-11-2015, 03:35
Leica is working on a major replacement for the current M right now. The M series is fully alive.

Perhaps this is the better question for this thread.
Is Leica done with what we all know as the M Family of cameras or do they have another family of camera in the works with which it shall replace?



Leica's product palette is fairly logical right now:

Leica S

Leica SL Linked to S and M by adapters
Leica M and Q

Leica T -linked to SL by the L mount
Leica X series

Panaleicas

None of these cameras is meant to replace another series, but Leica does take trouble to build as much compatibility of lenses into the various series to encourage customers to use them side by side, each for their respective purpose. Thus the SL can be used as a backup for the S, a partner for the M and a prime camera over the T.

krötenblender
11-11-2015, 04:40
As fans of the traditional M naming scheme learned with the M240, today's Leica management will name cameras whatever they like even it makes no sense.

Likewise the M240's successor is whatever management says it is, optical viewfinder or no.

If you call a fish a duck, it is still a fish and starts to smell from the mouth. It will not be a duck for me.

jaapv
11-11-2015, 05:20
Is a toad a cross between a duck and a fish?

c.poulton
11-11-2015, 05:20
My gut feeling is that for the digital M's they will go electronic whilst the film M's remain using the traditional mechanical rangefinder.

photomoof
11-11-2015, 06:24
sorry for sounding ignorant here but is there such a thing as electronic rangefinder?
how does it differ to an optical RF?
laser for measuring distance or something like what Fuji offers with the X100T?
at that point would it still be considered a rangefinder or basically a mirrorless camera?

Think of "rangefinder" in today's context, as slang for a Leica type rangefinder.

Bottom line put well by Wikipedia:
"Almost all digital cameras, and most later film cameras, measure distance using electroacoustic or electronic means and focus automatically (autofocus); however, it is not customary to speak of this functionality as a rangefinder."

jaapv
11-11-2015, 07:15
The idea bandied around on the forums would be two small cameras, mechanically coupled to the lens, projecting a rangefinder patch into the optical viewfinder.
Advantage: slightly more precise, digital calibration possible, projected framelines - one per focal length- possible. Maybe focus confirmation.
It would leave the rangefinder feeling intact.

Hsg
11-11-2015, 08:25
The classic RF optical viewfinder with its focus patch has landed more great photographs than any other camera viewfinder. Its very unlikely that Leica will kill its golden goose.

jaapv
11-11-2015, 09:01
No - but they may modernize it to the extent that many more great photographs can be taken by photographers using it; insofar as a piece of gear or mechanism is responsible for the content of a photograph. I should think the person pressing the shutter button is the real culprit.

Hsg
11-11-2015, 10:47
Considering that all Leica M lenses are manual focus, the modernization of M leica ovf has to offer a better manual focus mechanism than the classic patch.

DougFord
11-11-2015, 14:02
I.e The successor in the Tudor family after Henry VIII died was Edward VI (still a Tudor). However, the successor to the Tudor family after Elizabeth I was James I from the House of Stuart


The bloodline will continue, but a successor, for the sake of profit and prosperity, has been named. :rolleyes:

jsrockit
11-12-2015, 05:32
The classic RF optical viewfinder with its focus patch has landed more great photographs than any other camera viewfinder. Its very unlikely that Leica will kill its golden goose.

And how did you quantify that?

Kent
11-12-2015, 06:48
Sorry, I can't find my crystal ball... Where is it? Damn! It must be somewhere here...

;)

I hope, it's 1. Something tells me it's unfortunately 2. But actually it's 3.

Hsg
11-12-2015, 09:09
And how did you quantify that?

By counting Winogrand's output...

icebear
11-19-2015, 18:07
Sorry, I can't find my crystal ball... Where is it? Damn! It must be somewhere here...

;)

I hope, it's 1. Something tells me it's unfortunately 2. But actually it's 3.

The curtain is up and it's #1 : M262

jaapv
11-20-2015, 00:24
However, that is not an M240 successor but an ME replacement.

willie_901
11-20-2015, 06:18
However, that is not an M240 successor but an ME replacement.

Exactly.









apparently more uninformative content is required to submit this post

uhoh7
12-03-2015, 21:32
well at least one one of the next gen Ms will have one. But I think someday there may be an option.

A really small barnack sized M-mount with EVF for 3K would not be bad :)

jsrockit
12-04-2015, 06:26
A really small barnack sized M-mount with EVF for 3K would not be bad :)

It wouldn't be bad, but I doubt it'll be that "cheap."

uhoh7
12-04-2015, 20:27
It wouldn't be bad, but I doubt it'll be that "cheap."

Well no reason why not. It's a Q without the lens. The margins should be the same and you can bet they would sell more of them :)

Huss
02-12-2016, 14:33
An all new film M camera with an EVF so no shots are wasted by missed exposure would be incredible!

Then again, seeing my M7 exposes film better than my 3D matrix metering Nikon F6, maybe Leica is already there..

Dante_Stella
02-14-2016, 18:34
The classic RF optical viewfinder with its focus patch has landed more great photographs than any other camera viewfinder.

No, people shot great photographs, and rangefinders were along for the ride.

D

Gregm61
02-18-2016, 07:08
No optical rangefinder? I might as well be using my Olympus E-M1 outfit.

wpb
02-26-2016, 15:30
How would this even be technically feasible? The whole idea behind the M finder is that one can see outside the picture image area. An EVF that would allow this would need to be independent of the main camera lens - image creating sensor optical path (but perfectly translate distance information from the lens cam) or the sensor would need to be larger than 24x36mm. The first option seems unlikely and the second option seems remote.

CameraQuest
02-26-2016, 16:47
How would this even be technically feasible? The whole idea behind the M finder is that one can see outside the picture image area. An EVF that would allow this would need to be independent of the main camera lens - image creating sensor optical path (but perfectly translate distance information from the lens cam) or the sensor would need to be larger than 24x36mm. The first option seems unlikely and the second option seems remote.

an EVF with digital RF images
might offer some advantages

such as framelines for any focal length lens - coding would do it
variable finder magnifications better suiting each focal length
no need for multiple framelines - only one frameline at a time needs to be seen

imagine switching from a 50 to a 10mm lens
with an auto switch of framelines and finder magnifications !

variable frameline size with focused distance for accurate framing

of course it would have to be an extremely high definition EVF,
or why bother ?

mdarnton
02-27-2016, 05:52
If they take out the VF/RF and put in a digital finder, that will be the equivalent of replacing the VF with a mirror system--that is, a different camera, not a new version of the same. Is the Leicaflex a Leica M? Of course not. Would an electronic finder M-like camera be an M? Of course not.

Would they do it; replace the M with an EVF camera? Possibly. I don't see Leica as being the cleverest company in the photo world, so anything could happen. Ruining their main reason for existing is totally possible.

I could see the attraction of such a camera as a parallel line, though.

jsrockit
03-18-2016, 05:11
Well no reason why not. It's a Q without the lens. The margins should be the same and you can bet they would sell more of them :)

Right because Leica always makes prices that make sense. They are a luxury brand not a volume brand.