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Huss
03-12-2015, 12:18
Or are they just stringing us along until the outrage fades away?
Seems with the new CEO, they may just replace them with the same until the supply runs out, and then offer the exchange for the M240 + $$$

My skepticism is a result of the fact that they are still selling M-Es new with the known defect . They should pull those from the shelf until they have the real fix, but the fact they have not suggests that maybe they are not working on one. And the truth of the matter is the avg new Leica buyer nowadays may never realize there is a problem as they hardly ever use their cameras..

Nikon recently showed how it should be done. They pulled all the D750s off the shelf while they repaired the flare issue.

No progress report on the development of the new CCD sensor is a bad sign. I'm in the tech industry, and we give updates to our customers/clients when we work on solutions. But nothing from Leica.

I want to believe there is a real fix coming, but with this new management...

raid
03-12-2015, 12:29
This is a reasonable thought. Why is Leica selling camera with the faulty sensor?

Spanik
03-12-2015, 12:32
Because it is cheaper to replace only those few that are bought to take pictures with? Probably most will sit on collector's shelves.

noimmunity
03-12-2015, 12:38
I think that most of Leica's 'engineering' on this issue is going in to coaxing people on to the 'upgrade' path.

Pioneer
03-12-2015, 12:54
Well, these are the small tidbits gleaned from the massive amount of forum drivel spilled about this issue.

1. Leica made an official statement that they were developing a solution.
2. I have seen no other official statements that indicate that Leica has decided not to move forward on a solution.
3. In those cases where an M9 or MM owner upgraded to the M it appears that they pursued the upgrade, not that Leica aggressively promoted the upgrade.

It seems that Leica is actually doing what they said they would. Replace the sensor or upgrade the camera. As for an upgrade I would seriously thing that Leica would really like to know what causes the problem for sure before there are any new sensors built. I hardly think that internet forum speculation on potential causes are the type of research they are looking for.

I think what would be interesting to hear from Leica is what percent of the cameras sold have been returned with the corrosion problem. As for continuing to sell the camera, if the sensor does not exhibit the corrosion problem, why wouldn't you sell it?

Since the uproar over the sensor contamination problem was so big, people became accustomed to the excitement and adrenaline rush that accompanied the strong statements made by those involved. So they would like to stir that excitement up again.

Huss
03-12-2015, 13:21
All that making an official statement does is appease, temporarily, the masses.
And the only reason we got that response was because of the 'excitement and adrenaline rush' stirred up by questioning what is happening.

Pioneer, if we didn't do that, there would have been no response from Leica. So the response from Leica that you are currently happy with is a direct result of what you have an issue with.

Pioneer
03-12-2015, 13:52
I'm not sure about that. I seem to be wrong as often as I am right but from my following the postings as they developed, a statement was made by Leica, though not by the CEO. From what I remember the statement from Leica is really what triggered the entire uproar because it left a lot of people hanging.

Eventually, yes. Another statement was made and this one was a bit more acceptable and most people generally accepted that Leica would follow through.

Now, as far as I know, another statement has not been issued. Moreover, everything the Leica said they would do is actually being done so their actions seem to support the statement.

Your position seems to be that, since Leica has not yet issued an update to that statement, or issued another statement, that they have decided to renege on the original solution presented. All I was trying to do was provide a counterpoint to indicate the opposite.

To me actions are quite indicative of a company's intent. So far as I am able to tell, their actions do seem to support their solution.

Of course, I could certainly be wrong. I am not currently employed as an engineer on Leica's staff charged with clearly identifying the fault and proposing a resolution. As such you would be correct in pointing out that this is all just speculation.

Huss
03-12-2015, 14:00
Thanks for your civil response Pioneer, and providing a counter argument.

I'm sticking with my feelings, having gone through one sensor replacement so far, hearing that people are waiting 6 months to get their cameras taken care of (with the exact same sensor used as a replacement), while the same sensors are sitting in new cameras waiting to be sold.

A progress report would instill confidence, that is the norm in the tech industry, but none have been coming. Seeing their current financial woes and a new CEO coming on board, one begins to lose faith that such an expensive undertaking would actually see the light of day.

Godfrey
03-12-2015, 14:34
Leica didn't coax me at all. I had to ask about the upgrade option.

I've spent a week and some exercising the new M-P, learning it and processing its captures.

I'm convinced the best thing would be for Leica to discontinue new production on the older sensor models and move forwards—not sideways with updating older sensors: recreate the M-E and M Monochrom with the new technology and move on. What they should do about existing customers is just what they're doing now: fix cameras that need a fix until the supply of sensors is gone or the warranty statutes expire. Then everyone has to upgrade.

That's my opinion. But they are better at figuring out their business than I am.

G

seakayaker1
03-12-2015, 14:42
Loved my M9 and I was happy when they stated in a letter on dated January 19th that the Sensor was defected and the estimated date of repair would be 2/27/2015. When I called during the week of March 3rd, I was told that the sensors were on backorder and they did not have an estimated date of arrival in New Jersey.

No one suggested the upgrade to a M-240 or MP-240 when I called. There was information on the letter sent to me that read, "For Upgrade Information Please Call 800-222-0118 EXT 9930." There are also a few threads on the internet regarding the cost of upgrade.

After thinking about it over the weekend, I called on Monday, March 9th and asked if I could upgrade and they stated yes. I provided my credit card information and they stated I would have the new MP-240 by the end of the week. I was concerned about the delay and availability of the replacement sensors and also concerned if there was another problem in the future. Those two factors were the reason I decided to upgrade to the newer model with a full warranty. I do enjoy the rangefinder experience.

I thought it was a fair deal. A credit of $4200.00 for a four + year old M9 that I purchased used towards a new camera.

If the sensor was available and they repaired the M9 and returned it to me I would have been happy to use it until it died a natural death.

I am not outraged how Leica has handled the problem with the sensor. I do believe they could improve their communication which would enhance the customer service experience for the consumer.

Life to short, there are a lot of choices out there.

I know years ago I switched to using MAC computers and laptops vs Microsoft Windows based products because I was unhappy.

Certainly there have been a number of folks that have switched over to the Sony Full Frame solution and given up on Leica.

It is good to have options.

Roger Hicks
03-12-2015, 14:44
Well, these are the small tidbits gleaned from the massive amount of forum drivel spilled about this issue.

1. Leica made an official statement that they were developing a solution.
2. I have seen no other official statements that indicate that Leica has decided not to move forward on a solution.
3. In those cases where an M9 or MM owner upgraded to the M it appears that they pursued the upgrade, not that Leica aggressively promoted the upgrade.

It seems that Leica is actually doing what they said they would. Replace the sensor or upgrade the camera. As for an upgrade I would seriously thing that Leica would really like to know what causes the problem for sure before there are any new sensors built. I hardly think that internet forum speculation on potential causes are the type of research they are looking for.

I think what would be interesting to hear from Leica is what percent of the cameras sold have been returned with the corrosion problem. As for continuing to sell the camera, if the sensor does not exhibit the corrosion problem, why wouldn't you sell it?

Since the uproar over the sensor contamination problem was so big, people became accustomed to the excitement and adrenaline rush that accompanied the strong statements made by those involved. So they would like to stir that excitement up again.
No, no, no. Did you skip Conspiracy Theories 101? Or Basic Internet Hysteria in high school?

Cheers.

R.

jszokoli
03-12-2015, 15:31
So what would the reason be for Leica to pursue the current plan of repair of MM, M9, M-E's?

a) They are idiots.

b) They have a ton of sensors that have not been mated with sensor glass, or a guarantee that they will have access to buy sensors for quite a while.

If they were having supply issues they would then abandon the MM, and ME, offer trades to type 240's and move on.

The current approach would lead me to believe they ARE working on a alternative cover stack and feel that there is a good chance one can be developed.

Joe
(by the way what are those funny looking worm like things in the corner of the images on my M-E?)

Huss
03-12-2015, 15:51
No, no, no. Did you skip Conspiracy Theories 101? Or Basic Internet Hysteria in high school?

Cheers.

R.

Why does your response have to be in such a manner, instead of reasoned?

It's an honest and sincere question. Leica is undergoing financial difficulties, has had management change and still has this issue.

I have a lot vested in Leica glass, and would like to know if the CCD will indeed be supported. Replacing it with the same is not a solution for a working photographer.
If the new CCD is not going to happen, I'd like to know sooner rather than later as there are better Leica options out there than the trade in program.
As an example, fully warranted M 240 demos are available for $4500.
I would 'only' be out of pocket about $1500 if I made that move, rather than the $3000 for Leica's trade in. The reason I have not acted on it is because I prefer the CCD look, and so have held out.

But sure, yell out 'conspiracy theory' if that makes you feel better.

Rob-F
03-12-2015, 16:21
C'mon, Huss, lighten up. Roger means no harm. Ever. It's called irony. He's making a point, that's all. You have a lot invested, and are understandably anxious as to how this will all turn out. Fair enough. But Roger's irony is actually a vote of confidence in Leica, and their good intentions to fix the problem and support the customers. Your anxiety may have blocked you from seeing that.

Kwesi
03-12-2015, 16:36
Why does your response have to be in such a manner, instead of reasoned?

It's an honest and sincere question. Leica is undergoing financial difficulties, has had management change and still has this issue.

I have a lot vested in Leica glass, and would like to know if the CCD will indeed be supported. Replacing it with the same is not a solution for a working photographer.
If the new CCD is not going to happen, I'd like to know sooner rather than later as there are better Leica options out there than the trade in program.
As an example, fully warranted M 240 demos are available for $4500.
I would 'only' be out of pocket about $1500 if I made that move, rather than the $3000 for Leica's trade in. The reason I have not acted on it is because I prefer the CCD look, and so have held out.

But sure, yell out 'conspiracy theory' if that makes you feel better.

Huss,
I hear you and I feel your pain.
But! You need to take control of this. even if Leica came up with a corrosion free sensor tomorrow it would not be offered to you at no cost because you don't have a problem with your sensor.
You have already figured this out. Sell your camera for 3k, add 1.5k and get your demo M240 with warranty and move on.
There really is no holding out unless you have a corroded sensor and are choosing to use it professionally until Leica comes up with a new ccd sensor.

Huss
03-12-2015, 16:37
You're right Rob, I am anxious, but I fail to see the irony.

My confidence is shaken though, seeing the last time it took Leica 4 months to fix my camera, and now I am hearing 6 months from some. To get the same sensor.

And now we have a new CEO, with a new mission to increase profits. Helping out existing customers' sensor issues may get in the way of that.

mani
03-12-2015, 16:44
C'mon, Huss, lighten up. Roger means no harm. Ever. It's called irony. He's making a point, that's all. You have a lot invested, and are understandably anxious as to how this will all turn out. Fair enough. But Roger's irony is actually a vote of confidence in Leica, and their good intentions to fix the problem and support the customers. Your anxiety may have blocked you from seeing that.

Felt like schoolyard taunting to me.

As for the points Huss was making, what possible reason can Leica have for keeping progress on the issue secret? It's not like they're developing a new model, where confidentiality would be a competitive advantage. On the contrary, they have everything to gain from being open. He may have good reason to be worried, and deserves better than puerile "irony".

Huss
03-12-2015, 16:48
Huss,
I hear you and I feel your pain.
But! You need to take control of this. even if Leica came up with a corrosion free sensor tomorrow it would not be offered to you at no cost because you don't have a problem with your sensor.
You have already figured this out. Sell your camera for 3k, add 1.5k and get your demo M240 with warranty and move on.
There really is no holding out unless you have a corroded sensor and are choosing to use it professionally until Leica comes up with a new ccd sensor.

You're right. I don't think I can hold out and risk being left waiting on a repair again.
I'm glad that the appreciation for film photography is on the upswing as my film cameras (Leicas and Nikons) are rock solid.

Kwesi
03-12-2015, 16:58
You're right. I don't think I can hold out and risk being left waiting on a repair again.
I'm glad that the appreciation for film photography is on the upswing as my film cameras (Leicas and Nikons) are rock solid.

In the interest of full disclosure, I went through the same process as you.
My M9P sensor was replaced the week of the Leica announcement. I sold it in good conscience knowing it had been given a clean bill of health and warranty by Leica and bought an M240. I love the M9 look but I need a camera that I don't have any reservations using.

Pioneer
03-12-2015, 17:03
I have to agree with Kwesi on this one. If your sensor is good and you are still feeling anxiety regardless of how others around you are being treated, then maybe it is time to sell your M9 and move on. I know your closest Leica store will be happy to discuss a trade in and upgrade. It may be worth it just to ease your mind.

BTW, though it sounds as if everyone is having serious problems with the M9/MM sensor I don't think that is true. Neither my M9 (5 years old) or my MM (1 year old) are currently afflicted. As I have said a number of times, I am sure there are an awful lot of owners out there who have no problems.

icebear
03-12-2015, 17:38
...

As for Roger he can be rather Dry
and unfortunately it can come across as Cranky & Superior
I don't think he meant any ill will

And he only uses the "invisible tongue in cheek" smily ...:p, reading between the line is required :D

jaapv
03-12-2015, 18:52
I have to agree with Kwesi on this one. If your sensor is good and you are still feeling anxiety regardless of how others around you are being treated, then maybe it is time to sell your M9 and move on. I know your closest Leica store will be happy to discuss a trade in and upgrade. It may be worth it just to ease your mind.

BTW, though it sounds as if everyone is having serious problems with the M9/MM sensor I don't think that is true. Neither my M9 (5 years old) or my MM (1 year old) are currently afflicted. As I have said a number of times, I am sure there are an awful lot of owners out there who have no problems.
According to my sources the number of corroded sensors is low, in the order of 1%.

Pioneer
03-12-2015, 19:02
Thanks Jaap.

It could still increase but it is kind of nice to have some reference to work with. It tends to put things in perspective, something that can be tough to establish on the internet at times.

airfrogusmc
03-12-2015, 19:31
My MM is over 30K and over 2 years old and no sensor issues.

uhoh7
03-12-2015, 21:42
In Idaho we have a saying: "hard telling, not knowing"

jaapv
03-13-2015, 01:36
Felt like schoolyard taunting to me.

As for the points Huss was making, what possible reason can Leica have for keeping progress on the issue secret? It's not like they're developing a new model, where confidentiality would be a competitive advantage. On the contrary, they have everything to gain from being open. He may have good reason to be worried, and deserves better than puerile "irony".
I fear that a few tongue-in-cheek detectors are in dire need of recalibration...;)

mani
03-13-2015, 02:58
I fear that a few tongue-in-cheek detectors are in dire need of recalibration...;)

It's a well-known fact that I'm totally lacking in any sense of humor whatsoever. But on reflection the puerile taunting was in fact hilariously funny, and totally appropriate given the serious concerns that Huss very thoughtfully presented.

By the way Jaap, I'm intrigued by the sources you're always quoting - they always seem to have good news for Leica.

ian_watts
03-13-2015, 03:00
According to my sources the number of corroded sensors is low, in the order of 1%.

It's quite possible that the percentage of problem sensors reported to Leica is 1% of the cameras sold (quite a large number for the service department to deal with) but I rather doubt that the percentage of sensors actually affected is anything like that low. If I take just one random sample: the digital Leicas that I have bought in the last 4 years – 2 out of 3 have been affected. Take another random sampling: regular posters (i.e. those who aren't posting because they have a pre-existing complaint) on, say LUF, who own a Monochrom – again, the incidence of sensor corrosion is much higher than 1%. Okay, my examples are statistically very dodgy but a common sense reading of the situation is that the problem is more widespread even if (fortunately for Leica) most people will not notice nor bring the sensor to Leica's attention.

Michael Markey
03-13-2015, 05:15
By the way Jaap, I'm intrigued by the sources you're always quoting - they always seem to have good news for Leica.

I think its that which worries me the most.
Objectivity badly required on both sides of the fence.

noimmunity
03-13-2015, 05:44
I fear that a few tongue-in-cheek detectors are in dire need of recalibration...;)

I wanted to get mine recalibrated, but the manufacturer's Customer Service representative told me to expect several months' waiting time. As I read about wildly different waiting times experienced by other users, ranging from just a few weeks to over half-a-year, not to mention the fact that the spamium components used in the last generation of detectors easily leaks Spam grease, it suddenly dawned on me how much more sense it would make for me to simply upgrade my detector to the BS Typ 380 model. Only thing is, I had to figure out how to get it past my wife, now that the body shape of the Typ 380 has, like my waist line, increased incrementally. Fortunately, a friend suggested that I put it in a Piedi d'Arte case and just walk it past her. Case closed!

Vobluda
03-13-2015, 05:56
That would make about total of 300-500 sensors overall.
And if so why does it take them half year to change the sensor even when they have them stock?
And why do they do the circus with this ridiculous exchange for new camera that is not good for customer?
If it would be only such low number/% they could just give those people in silence M240 and it is done.

According to my sources the number of corroded sensors is low, in the order of 1%.

Keith
03-13-2015, 06:01
Personally I think Leica are about to get a wake up call ... this could be a very interesting year for them 'financially' IMO.

MCTuomey
03-13-2015, 06:02
I'll include myself in the apparent "outraged masses" the OP identifies. Except I'm not outraged, just some residual disappointment. Don't care about a new CCD as long as Leica has adequate stock to replace defective ones and continues its policy to do so. If a new, replacement CCD is developed, great - nice upside. Right now, I see no downside given the ability to replace defective sensors. And long-term, if replacement of the sensor becomes unworkable, there's the upgrade path. My cameras have been inspected and work very well. That's what I bought into, and that remains a criterion to continue to shoot Leica gear. The cameras continue to work as they did prior to this development.

This kind of rabble-rousing post is nice theater, I guess, and gives folks an outlet for internet venting. It won't make anyone's pictures better. And I don't see much, if anything, constructive in it.

willie_901
03-13-2015, 06:42
Assuming the defect rate is on the order of 1%, perhaps the 1% are people who actually use their cameras often and pay attention to the overall quality in their rendered images.

It's interesting that a trivial 1% of the M9 series owners had a massive impact on Leica .

I first heard about the first replacement policy announcement here and then spectated the responses at a well-know Leica user forum (very entertaining and educational by the way).

Before long the photo bloggers and photo magazines I follow on Twitter made comments. Then I saw the same reports on news/blog aggregation apps such as News360. Within days (48 hours I think) Leica admitted the issue was a materials defect in the sensor cover glass and reversed their sensor replacement policy.

That's a lot of leverage for problem that only affects 1% of all M9 cameras.

ROOOO
03-13-2015, 10:34
Loved my M9 and I was happy when they stated in a letter on dated January 19th that the Sensor was defected and the estimated date of repair would be 2/27/2015. When I called during the week of March 3rd, I was told that the sensors were on backorder and they did not have an estimated date of arrival in New Jersey.

No one suggested the upgrade to a M-240 or MP-240 when I called. There was information on the letter sent to me that read, "For Upgrade Information Please Call 800-222-0118 EXT 9930." There are also a few threads on the internet regarding the cost of upgrade.

After thinking about it over the weekend, I called on Monday, March 9th and asked if I could upgrade and they stated yes. I provided my credit card information and they stated I would have the new MP-240 by the end of the week. I was concerned about the delay and availability of the replacement sensors and also concerned if there was another problem in the future. Those two factors were the reason I decided to upgrade to the newer model with a full warranty. I do enjoy the rangefinder experience.

I thought it was a fair deal. A credit of $4200.00 for a four + year old M9 that I purchased used towards a new camera.

If the sensor was available and they repaired the M9 and returned it to me I would have been happy to use it until it died a natural death.

I am not outraged how Leica has handled the problem with the sensor. I do believe they could improve their communication which would enhance the customer service experience for the consumer.

Life to short, there are a lot of choices out there.

I know years ago I switched to using MAC computers and laptops vs Microsoft Windows based products because I was unhappy.

Certainly there have been a number of folks that have switched over to the Sony Full Frame solution and given up on Leica.

It is good to have options.

$4,200? How much did you pay for the new camera? I was asked to pay $3,500, valuing the M9 at $3,000.

CameraQuest
03-13-2015, 10:41
According to my sources the number of corroded sensors is low, in the order of 1%.

According to this RFF poll, over 1/3 of those responding have problems -

- if you are / were an M9 owner and have not yet voted - please VOTE

http://rangefinderforum.com/forums/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=1516

Stephen

Emile de Leon
03-13-2015, 11:29
Sounds like it is more like...33%..and that's not factoring in..how many more sensors will crap out..in the coming weeks and months..let alone..years..
That probably explains the long wait times..

Godfrey
03-13-2015, 11:48
$4,200? How much did you pay for the new camera? I was asked to pay $3,500, valuing the M9 at $3,000.

The Leica M-P typ 240 body sells for $7950 at B&H Photo. When I decided to opt for the upgrade, Leica USA offered the M-P to me for $3750. That puts the net value offered for my M9 at $4200.

I could have opted for the M typ 240, the upgrade price was $250 less ($3500). B&H sells that body for $6500. That would have changed the trade-in value of the M9 to $3000.

The M-P upgrade was a better deal, so I went for that.

G

sevo
03-13-2015, 11:52
According to this RFF poll, over 1/3 of those responding have problems -


Polls are a poor place to calculate a percentage of those affected by whatever issue, as people that are not affected are unpropprtionally less inclined to answer than those that are. All we can say from that is that twice as many people as those affected are Leica apologists to the degree that they even answer when it should not matter for them...

CameraQuest
03-13-2015, 11:54
Polls are a poor place to calculate a percentage of those affected by whatever issue, as people that are not affected are unpropprtionally less inclined to answer than those that are. All we can say from that is that twice as many people as those affected are Leica apologists to the degree that they even answer when it should not matter for them...

probably true, but polls are still better than a guess

If you are / were an M9 owner, please VOTE in the Poll !

Nigel Meaby
03-13-2015, 12:05
I think Jaapv's '0' key is sticky on his keyboard :D

sevo
03-13-2015, 12:16
Is there any recent poll that counted the M9 (or digital FF Leica) owners? That would be a better relation to compare against.

CameraQuest
03-13-2015, 12:37
Is there any recent poll that counted the M9 (or digital FF Leica) owners? That would be a better relation to compare against.

we do not have that info. Even if we had a poll for that, it too would be limited to those M9 owners who voted.

Polls are admittedly inaccurate, yet they are still more useful than a guess.

Stephen

Huss
03-13-2015, 13:03
According to my sources the number of corroded sensors is low, in the order of 1%.


According to my sources, that is completely incorrect.
In fact, my sources say that your sources are putting out that mis-information in an attempt to prevent damage to the brand.


Think about it, a 1% failure rate is something that Canon/Nikon/Fuji etc experience. And I have not seen them put out an official statement saying they are working on trying to correct defective sensors.

I honestly think that most owners (note I did not say users) have no idea there is an issue as they bought it as a bauble, and if they use it, use it to post tiny images on their social media sites until they realize they're better off using their smart phones.

But I dunno, is it too much to actually address the topic at hand? It was not about has yours failed, but is a new CCD sensor being developed? We have heard nothing from Leica since the promise of replacing it with the same. And there now has been a management change with the emphasis on financially righting the ship.

seakayaker1
03-13-2015, 13:03
$4,200? How much did you pay for the new camera? I was asked to pay $3,500, valuing the M9 at $3,000.

The cost for me was $3750 for the Leica M-P 240 type. Current retail for the new MP is $7950.00.

There were different prices depending on model trade in and model requested:

Trade Leica M9 or M-E for Leica M (Typ 240): $3,500
Trade Leica M9 or M-E for Leica M-P (Typ 240): $3,750
Trade Leica M9-P for Leica M (Typ 240): $3,150
Trade Leica M9-P for Leica M-P (Typ 240): $3,450


I received my MP yesterday and quite pleased with the camera and will be out an about this weekend taking some photographs!

Kwesi
03-13-2015, 14:20
...

But I dunno, is it too much to actually address the topic at hand? It was not about has yours failed, but is a new CCD sensor being developed? We have heard nothing from Leica since the promise of replacing it with the same. And there now has been a management change with the emphasis on financially righting the ship.

I think the short answer is no.
The goal has been to find a suitable replacement cover glass.

jaapv
03-13-2015, 18:03
According to my sources, that is completely incorrect.
In fact, my sources say that your sources are putting out that mis-information in an attempt to prevent damage to the brand.


Think about it, a 1% failure rate is something that Canon/Nikon/Fuji etc experience. And I have not seen them put out an official statement saying they are working on trying to correct defective sensors.

I honestly think that most owners (note I did not say users) have no idea there is an issue as they bought it as a bauble, and if they use it, use it to post tiny images on their social media sites until they realize they're better off using their smart phones.

But I dunno, is it too much to actually address the topic at hand? It was not about has yours failed, but is a new CCD sensor being developed? We have heard nothing from Leica since the promise of replacing it with the same. And there now has been a management change with the emphasis on financially righting the ship.
And wouldn't it be to Leica's advantage to develop a non-corroding cover glass (not a complete CCD, that would be silly) if it is as bad as you suggest instead of replacing them ad infinitum? I should think that would be the first thing a cost-conscious CEO would be pushing for.
As for the percentages - after the first spate the number reported on LUF has slowed down to a trickle - and we know from the cracked sensor issue that the the vast majority of affected owners will post on LUF.
I can think of a scenario that certain parties -not necessarily outside Leica- have an interest in exaggerating the issue.

Huss
03-13-2015, 18:22
And wouldn't it be to Leica's advantage to develop a non-corroding cover glass (not a complete CCD, that would be silly) if it is as bad as you suggest instead of replacing them ad infinitum? I should think that would be the first thing a cost-conscious CEO would be pushing for.
As for the percentages - after the first spate the number reported on LUF has slowed down to a trickle - and we know from the cracked sensor issue that the the vast majority of affected owners will post on LUF.
I can think of a scenario that certain parties have an interest in exaggerating the issue.


How about revealing that 1% source?

That, I mentioned, is a failure rate equal to Nikon/Canon etc.

If that 1% was real, and I was Leica, I'd make sure everyone knew about it as dang, that would be a good failure rate. 99% of cameras are a-ok!
But, because it is bogus, your source (prove me wrong) is "confidential".

On RF's poll, 33 out of 80 respondents have had sensor issues. Sounds just a tad greater than 1%, does it not?


"I can think of a scenario that certain parties -not necessarily outside Leica- have an interest in exaggerating the issue"

I'm curious, what scenario would that be? Or is this another cryptic response to this real issue, like your 1% claim?

Pioneer
03-13-2015, 18:23
Lord forbid that anyone visiting these wondrous internet forums (or forae for those who like that form better) should be confused with any facts. It just gets in the way of speculation and good old internet hysteria. :D

Huss
03-13-2015, 18:27
:D

See, that's how you end a comment like that!

:)

Pioneer
03-13-2015, 18:28
How about revealing that 1% source?

That, I mentioned, is a failure rate equal to Nikon/Canon etc.

If that 1% was real, and I was Leica, I'd make sure everyone knew about it as dang, that would be a good failure rate. 99% of cameras are a-ok!
But, because it is bogus, your source (prove me wrong) is "confidential".

On RF's poll, 33 out of 80 respondents have had sensor issues. Sounds just a tad greater than 1%, does it not?


"I can think of a scenario that certain parties -not necessarily outside Leica- have an interest in exaggerating the issue"

I'm curious, what scenario would that be? Or is this another cryptic response to this real issue, like your 1% claim?

So, just out of curiosity, what percent of 40,000 (plus or minus) is 80? Then, to complete that loop, what percent of 40,000 (plus or minus) is 33?

Even if you totally discount 50% of the Leica M9 market as jewelry buyers, that is still hardly a large percentage. So I still fail to see how the 1% reported is absolutely wrong!

jaapv
03-13-2015, 18:35
How about revealing that 1% source?

That, I mentioned, is a failure rate equal to Nikon/Canon etc.

If that 1% was real, and I was Leica, I'd make sure everyone knew about it as dang, that would be a good failure rate. 99% of cameras are a-ok!
But, because it is bogus, your source (prove me wrong) is "confidential".

On RF's poll, 33 out of 80 respondents have had sensor issues. Sounds just a tad greater than 1%, does it not?


"I can think of a scenario that certain parties -not necessarily outside Leica- have an interest in exaggerating the issue"

I'm curious, what scenario would that be? Or is this another cryptic response to this real issue, like your 1% claim?
This real internet issue. So you know for a fact that 33 cameras out of 40.000 have this problem and that adds up to errrr... what percentage?

Pioneer
03-13-2015, 18:42
See, that's how you end a comment like that!

:)

I most certainly am not trying to make light of your concerns. You are worried. You have a very expensive camera with equally expensive lenses and don't know where to go.

I am, however, trying to show that internet hystrionics oftentimes create mountains out of molehills.

As for explaining Leica's response if the actual numbers were truly so low, I don't think that is too tough. First, I do not want to make it sound as if I am "in the know." But there is something known as damage control. The issue at hand was quickly spreading to other web news sites.

In fact, if I were Leica, a small boutique camera company very dependent on their customer's perception of them, and I knew that the actual problem was really quite small, I would happily make the offer that was made. Now, on the other hand, if I thought the real problem might involve 25% of my product I would NOT make that offer.

Believe me, the people who lead these companies don't get there by doing stupid things. They do not rely on internet speculation. They want the real numbers. And they have people who can give them those numbers.

For myself, the moment this offer was made I relaxed. I have been there, I have sat in those meetings. I know exactly what happens to those who overstate the results and then cannot deliver.

I have no idea what happened between Blackstone and the recently outed CEO but I would be really surprised if it had anything to do with this situation.

Just my thoughts on the matter although I know that it will do little to stop the speculation.

I truly do wish you well Huss and I hope you do come up with a way to make yourself feel more relaxed about all this.

Huss
03-13-2015, 18:49
The polling is a sampling. A method of prediction. So the 33 is out of a population of 80, not 40,000 (obviously). It is the same way that polls are taken after elections to determine results. A sampling of the population is a predictor of results.

'We', cameraquest, on RF did have a real poll, that is ongoing, and that is based on real numbers on a real population. Sure the only way one can be sure if it is accurate is by getting responses from every M9/ME/Monochrom owner out there, but that is not realistic or possible.
So the next best thing is to conduct a poll,which is what was done here.

And Pioneer, again, I appreciate your answer but to understand how this offer was made by Leica, one needs to also understand the current Leica owner. Again, I do not use the word user or photographer. Leica knows that most of these cameras barely see any use. So the defect, if it exists, may never appear to that owner as they do not use it , or know what to look for.
If there is a large population of defective sensors, but no-one knows about them, then the cost to Leica is minimized. Maybe Leica is onto something with their boutique stores and boutique pricing after all! That way , one could argue, working photographers who would notice this issue are kept away!

CameraQuest
03-13-2015, 19:01
How about revealing that 1% source?

That, I mentioned, is a failure rate equal to Nikon/Canon etc.

If that 1% was real, and I was Leica, I'd make sure everyone knew about it as dang, that would be a good failure rate. 99% of cameras are a-ok!
But, because it is bogus, your source (prove me wrong) is "confidential".

On RF's poll, 33 out of 80 respondents have had sensor issues. Sounds just a tad greater than 1%, does it not?


"I can think of a scenario that certain parties -not necessarily outside Leica- have an interest in exaggerating the issue"

I'm curious, what scenario would that be? Or is this another cryptic response to this real issue, like your 1% claim?

jaapv is just sharing information that was shared with him.

There is no reason to shoot the messenger because you don't like the message. jaapv has proven himself very Leica knowledgeable time and time again. While the poll is certainly too small to be accurate, 1% failure seems too small a failure rate to many as well.

That said, until Leica shares hard facts stating how many cameras out of what total production have developed sensor corrosion problems, we will not know what the accurate sensor corrosion figures are. The discussion shows a lot of frustration and impatience over how the problem solution has played out so far.

Stephen

Pioneer
03-13-2015, 19:11
I am certainly not a survey builder but a survey conducted among admitted rangefinder enthusiasts would hardly qualify as being representative.

Whatever, we all make our own decision in the end. In my own opinion it is not a good idea to base those decisions on information gleaned from internet forums or blogs. However, it is obvious that people make decisions to sell and buy things all the time based exactly on this criteria.

I will be keeping my own M9. I thought it made amazing photos when I first picked it up, and I still do. Leica intends to support it and is doing just that, as they said. I paid more money for this camera than I have paid for any other camera I own so I'm betting it will last until the "whiskers" finally catch up.

Of course, I have been wrong before. :)

seakayaker1
03-13-2015, 19:19
And Pioneer, again, I appreciate your answer but to understand how this offer was made by Leica, one needs to also understand the current Leica owner. Again, I do not use the word user or photographer. Leica knows that most of these cameras barely see any use.


Huss, with the statement "Leica knows that most of these cameras barely see any use" can you provide a source for your information.

I know quite a few M9, MM, and M owners and none of them keep them on the shelf and admire them.

My experience with people who buy Leica Cameras, is that they use them, so I believe your point is exaggerated. I certainly believe the problem with sensors is larger than 1% but do not buy into the belief that Leica Corporation has a hidden agenda and the majority of there consumers do not know or care because they don't use the product.

My suggestion would be that you sell or upgrade and move on.

Life is too short ......

Huss
03-13-2015, 19:23
Yeah. I love the results of my M-E, which is why I am so anxious/impatient etc wanting to find out what is going on.

deep breath.
ommmmmmm.

Keith
03-13-2015, 19:27
Ahh Leica ... the smoke and mirrors company.

'Smoke' ... because they constantly seem to be the subject of rumours about their survival or otherwise.

'Mirrors' ... well, because rangefinders are based around mirrors and prisms for focusing.

:D

Pioneer
03-13-2015, 19:32
Ahh Leica ... the smoke and mirrors company.

'Smoke' ... because they constantly seem to be the subject of rumours about their survival or otherwise.

'Mirrors' ... well, because rangefinders are based around mirrors and prisms for focusing.

:D

That's great!

And most of the smoke is created by Leica owners themselves. None of them can believe that cameras that are this much fun are still being manufactured.

Most of the rest of the market really doesn't care. None of them have used a Kodak sensor in decades. :)

Edit - Warning! Warning! This post contains agregious internet hyperbole that cannot be supported by any fact, or half-facts, or even my uncle's fax.

ktmrider
03-13-2015, 20:09
Had my M9 purchased used for a little over a year. I bought it for travel and it survived a thousand miles on a motorcycle in Laos and 90 days of living in my backpack through Europe last fall.

I sent it to Leica, NJ, in early December for a cleaning. It came back six weeks later with a 1 year warranty and a new, unexpected sensor. I really do not have any complaints about how Leica is handling this problem. I thought about the upgrade but do not use the camera enough to justify another $3700.

It will be going with me for a six month motorcycle trip from the US to Tierra del Fuego. If it gets stolen or quits working, well that is what insurance is for and I enjoyed it while I had it.

Come on people, life is too damn short to sweat the small stuff.

jaapv
03-14-2015, 02:30
The polling is a sampling. A method of prediction. So the 33 is out of a population of 80, not 40,000 (obviously). It is the same way that polls are taken after elections to determine results. A sampling of the population is a predictor of results.



A poll of participants that attracts users with a problem, filled in by those that can be bothered to answer, on a forum not aimed specifically at Leica users, but rangefinder enthusiasts with 80 participants out of 40.000.....:rolleyes:

I have a poll that is just as valid statistically:
The failure rate is exactly 50% because my Monochrom had the problem and my M9 not...

Michael Markey
03-14-2015, 04:28
That said, until Leica shares hard facts stating how many cameras out of what total production have developed sensor corrosion problems, we will not know what the accurate sensor corrosion figures are. The discussion shows a lot of frustration and impatience over how the problem solution has played out so far.

Stephen

...and that is the real problem.

Despite all the interesting diversions over what may constitute a meaningful sample or the suggestion by some that Leica owners have a propensity to whinge more than other users ....the issue refuses to go away.

The fact that they seem unable to close it down is in itself damaging.

They needed to be transparent from the start and they unfortunately failed to be so.

sevo
03-14-2015, 05:05
The polling is a sampling. A method of prediction. So the 33 is out of a population of 80, not 40,000 (obviously). It is the same way that polls are taken after elections to determine results.

The obvious differences are that 1. you can safely assume that those that bothered to show up for the election actually voted, 2. a randomized number of voters is actively asked by an interviewer to participate in the exit polls (counting refusals as well) and 3. statisticians have compiled correction tables over the course of dozens of polls to correct for the (quite considerable) difference between actual votes and what people claim to have voted on the exit poll (and the party specific participation bias).

jaapv
03-14-2015, 05:09
...and that is the real problem.

Despite all the interesting diversions over what may constitute a meaningful sample or the suggestion by some that Leica owners have a propensity to whinge more than other users ....the issue refuses to go away.

The fact that they seem unable to close it down is in itself damaging.

They needed to be transparent from the start and they unfortunately failed to be so.
Well, the guaranty of replacements, the offer of upgrade and the quest for a new cover glass is a closure in itself.

airfrogusmc
03-14-2015, 06:53
Every time a new camera comes out from the big two and there are issues which there have been from time to time you should read that hate on forums that are dedicated to either Canon or Nikon. No different.

Again, my MM is well used and has 30K + and is over two years old no issues. A great tool for the way I see and work. If a problem shows up I will send it in. I have already had several emails to Leica how BTW was very up front and responsive.

Kwesi
03-14-2015, 07:23
...The discussion shows a lot of frustration and impatience over how the problem solution has played out so far.

Stephen

Huss is the only actual owner expressing dissatisfaction in this thread.
And he isn't even an affected owner.

Nothing wrong with that - just a reality check:)

Luke_Miller
03-14-2015, 10:05
Leica USA replaced the sensor in my M9 this past December. Camera was out of my hands just over a month. Good service in my view. My MM sensor also appears to be experiencing corrosion, but much less severe than that of the M9. I will try to wait until sensors with the new cover glass are available before sending it in. I don't think any MM or M9 shooter experiencing sensor corrosion is happy with the situation, but I for one believe Leica is acting responsibly.

It would be hard for me to imagine Leica not working diligently to source replacement sensors that do not have the corrosion issue. Since there are current bodies either still in production or at least in unsold inventory that use the problematic sensor - failure to find a permanent fix would seem to push the issue and bad PR out for a decade or more.

Huss
03-14-2015, 11:40
Huss is the only actual owner expressing dissatisfaction in this thread.
And he isn't even an affected owner.

Nothing wrong with that - just a reality check:)


Happened to me twice..

Huss
03-14-2015, 11:50
Leica USA replaced the sensor in my M9 this past December. Camera was out of my hands just over a month. Good service in my view. My MM sensor also appears to be experiencing corrosion, but much less severe than that of the M9. I will try to wait until sensors with the new cover glass are available before sending it in. I don't think any MM or M9 shooter experiencing sensor corrosion is happy with the situation, but I for one believe Leica is acting responsibly.

It would be hard for me to imagine Leica not working diligently to source replacement sensors that do not have the corrosion issue. Since there are current bodies either still in production or at least in unsold inventory that use the problematic sensor - failure to find a permanent fix would seem to push the issue and bad PR out for a decade or more.

Another 2 out of 2 failure rate..

Glad they serviced yours so quickly.

But again, this thread is not about 'has your failed', but what is the news/likelihood/updates on Leica's permanent fix to this problem. Which is not the same as replacing it with a like sensor.


Anyway, I just picked up an M240 to see how I can work with it. If everything goes well, then my M-E will be sold. My brief usage of the two has shown the CCD sensor has greater highlight recovery ability than the CMOS.

I would have loved to move on from Leica, but the reality is no-one offers what they offer. Stunning lenses that work PERFECTLY on an OVF RF body.
I tried the Sony A7ii, and while this is subjective, I did not enjoy the user experience at all. Nor the fact that - contrary to the claim of some popular blogger$ - my lenses do not work well with the system. But this is not a knock on Sony for that, as why would they care to cater to other mfgs' lenses?

If anyone is privy on knowing what is happening with Leica and the progress of the CCD sensor glass fix, I'd love to know. I have a feeling that something may be announced after the new CEO takes over.

Kwesi
03-14-2015, 12:25
Another 2 out of 2 failure rate..

Glad they serviced yours so quickly.

But again, this thread is not about 'has your failed', but what is the news/likelihood/updates on Leica's permanent fix to this problem. Which is not the same as replacing it with a like sensor.


Anyway, I just picked up an M240 to see how I can work with it. If everything goes well, then my M-E will be sold. My brief usage of the two has shown the CCD sensor has greater highlight recovery ability than the CMOS.

I would have loved to move on from Leica, but the reality is no-one offers what they offer. Stunning lenses that work PERFECTLY on an OVF RF body.
I tried the Sony A7ii, and while this is subjective, I did not enjoy the user experience at all. Nor the fact that - contrary to the claim of some popular blogger$ - my lenses do not work well with the system. But this is not a knock on Sony for that, as why would they care to cater to other mfgs' lenses?

If anyone is privy on knowing what is happening with Leica and the progress of the CCD sensor glass fix, I'd love to know. I have a feeling that something may be announced after the new CEO takes over.

I stand corrected Huss,
Glad to hear you are going to give the M240 a try. I did the same and haven't looked back.
By the way, have you had a chance to read the article "THE GREAT DEBATE: CCD VS. CMOS" on reddotforum? Its an interesting read in 3 parts

Kwesi

Ben Z
03-15-2015, 07:32
And wouldn't it be to Leica's advantage to develop a non-corroding cover glass (not a complete CCD, that would be silly) if it is as bad as you suggest instead of replacing them ad infinitum? I should think that would be the first thing a cost-conscious CEO would be pushing for.


Sadly in the corporate world of today there is a different logic in play. CEO's don't look upon it as a lifetime career, merely a stepping stone. Especially when it's of a tiny corp like Leica. A year or two of increasing profits garners them the rep of being a turnaround specialist and leads to bigger and better positions. So their emphasis is on augmenting the short-term bottom line.

R&D labor costs are significantly more per hour than production or service labor. So replacing faulty sensors with identical but as-yet-unblemished ones is cheaper than developing a new cover glass. Especially for a sensor fitted to a discontinued product. If this issue threaatened to stall sales of current product, I believe Leica's response would be different.

sevo
03-15-2015, 07:48
R&D labor costs are significantly more per hour than production or service labor. So replacing faulty sensors with identical but as-yet-unblemished ones is cheaper than developing a new cover glass. Especially for a sensor fitted to a discontinued product.


Especially when it concerns a discontinued third party sensor for a discontinued product - there are multiple stages of cost increase involved there, it is not anything where the inhouse Leica R&D can do anything short of getting into sensor packaging from scratch.

gunston
03-15-2015, 21:00
my M9-P in serious fungus and corrosion issue. it is sick.

Emile de Leon
03-15-2015, 21:49
<--Another happy...digital Leica..owner..<--
I'll bet over the next few years..that defect %..goes way way up..if they don't outright..discontinue the ME etc..and run as fast as they can...from the problems..

icebear
03-16-2015, 04:30
Acc. to an article in the latest LFI magazine, Leica is NOT working on a new sensor. They are working on a new cover glass for the sensor and most likely also an improved coating. The issue is the cover glass type which blocks infrared better than the M8 sensor cover glass type BUT is prone to corrosion by humidity once the coating gets scratched.

traveler_101
03-16-2015, 07:36
I am certainly not a survey builder but a survey conducted among admitted rangefinder enthusiasts would hardly qualify as being representative.

Well, it's a hell of a lot more representative than passing around rumours about 1%. And I don't see why or how the fact that the poll is taken among "enthusiasts" affects its outcome. It is safe to say that the same rate of failure hits enthusiasts as any other group of buyers, unless you know something about distribution that i don't.

Whatever, we all make our own decision in the end. In my own opinion it is not a good idea to base those decisions on information gleaned from internet forums or blogs. However, it is obvious that people make decisions to sell and buy things all the time based exactly on this criteria.
It seems to me reading this thread that a lot of people are sitting around with a camera that costs THOUSANDS that isn't being repaired. That is the basis of their feelings . . . and maybe of their decision.

I will be keeping my own M9. I thought it made amazing photos when I first picked it up, and I still do. Leica intends to support it and is doing just that, as they said. I paid more money for this camera than I have paid for any other camera I own so I'm betting it will last until the "whiskers" finally catch up.

Of course, I have been wrong before. :)

Well you're the guy who has been fortunate with his camera, talking to others who have been less fortunate. Present company excluded. I am only observing . . .

Pioneer
03-16-2015, 07:53
Well, it's a hell of a lot more representative than passing around rumours about 1%. And I don't see why or how the fact that the poll is taken among "enthusiasts" affects its outcome. It is safe to say that the same rate of failure hits enthusiasts as any other group of buyers, unless you know something about distribution that i don't.


It seems to me reading this thread that a lot of people are sitting around with a camera that costs THOUSANDS that isn't being repaired. That is the basis of their feelings . . . and maybe of their decision.



Well you're the guy who has been fortunate with his camera, talking to others who have been less fortunate. Present company excluded. I am only observing . . .

Thanks for the observations Traveler. It would appear that you are really the lucky one as you have no horse in this race, good or bad.

willie_901
03-16-2015, 07:58
Acc. to an article in the latest LFI magazine, Leica is NOT working on a new sensor. They are woking on a new cover glass for the sensor and most likely also an improved coating. The issue is the cover glass type which blocks infrared better than the M8 sensor cover glass type BUT is prone to corrosion by humidity once the coating gets scratched.

This clarification is rather important. A significant amount of confusion when discussing any digital camera system could be avoided if the incomplete descriptor sensor was avoided. A camera's technical IQ is depends on a combination of factors – the individual components of the sensor assembly, the analog ISO amplification engineering and the characteristics of the analog-to-digital converter. This rather different than film where the chemical composition and physical properties (emulsion and emulsion layers) are intertwined.

In the case of the M9 family, it might be possible to remove the cover glass assembly, assure the color-filter array is not damaged, and confirm the CCD assembly and associated electronics operates within specification. Then a redesigned cover-glass/filter could be installed.

Whether or not this process is less expensive than manufacturing a completely new sensor system is unknown. But this sort of replacement would be a fair and complete solution to rectify the defective cover-glass problem.

traveler_101
03-16-2015, 08:43
Thanks for the observations Traveler. It would appear that you are really the lucky one as you have no horse in this race, good or bad.

Well you are a hell of a nice guy; wish I didn't have to disagree with you on this stuff.

Emile de Leon
03-16-2015, 09:51
If I spent that much money on an M9 or even an ME...and a 6 month turnaround time for a built in inherent defect..that would not make me happy..
Leica should just update the sensor..with a good reliable one..
Or revamp the lower priced M line entirely..

Kwesi
03-16-2015, 10:00
If I spent that much money on an M9 or even an ME...and a 6 month turnaround time for a built in inherent defect..that would not make me happy..
Leica should just update the sensor..with a good reliable one..
Or revamp the lower priced M line entirely..

My turnaround time was one week.

rod64
03-16-2015, 17:54
My turnaround time was one week.

And what was the cost?

Huss
03-16-2015, 21:22
My turnaround time was one week.

Mine was 4 months.

And this was over a year ago, before this corrosion news came out and 'everyone' started sending their's in.

Kwesi
03-16-2015, 21:51
And what was the cost?

It was replaced under goodwill warranty.
This was before the announcement.

Kwesi
03-16-2015, 21:55
Mine was 4 months.

And this was over a year ago, before this corrosion news came out and 'everyone' started sending their's in.

I think it's was just lucky timing on my part.
I'm sure the wait is longer now after the announcement.

fireblade
03-16-2015, 22:04
.........BUT is prone to corrosion by humidity once the coating gets scratched.
I don't understand how you could scratch the coating on a sensor.


...Leica should just update the sensor..with a good reliable one..

update the existing one, or replace it with a completely new and different sensor? .... easier said than done because Leica would have had the existing sensor made to function optimally with their lenses.

jaapv
03-17-2015, 00:14
I don't understand how you could scratch the coating on a sensor.



Just try wet cleaning without blowing off hard pieces of dust like mini-sandgrains first.

fireblade
03-17-2015, 00:24
Just try wet cleaning without blowing off hard pieces of dust like mini-sandgrains first.

I understand that, i've wet cleaned many a sensor, but if a sensor scratches so easily then you would have to say that it is an inferior product....no?

Archlich
03-17-2015, 00:46
My personal assumption is by September the current M-E will be replaced by the 24MP M-E Type 240, or what ever number they decide to package it up with. No more defective new products thanks to the CMOS.

The M9 support will continue until they run out of the KAF-18500, by then the only option will be to upgrade. It could happen anytime, just hope Leica would by the brick from us for at least a nominal sum when it comes.

jaapv
03-17-2015, 01:17
I understand that, i've wet cleaned many a sensor, but if a sensor scratches so easily then you would have to say that it is an inferior product....no?
Not really. If you scratch your lens cleaning it would you call it an inferior product?
User error is a better word....

Huss
03-17-2015, 08:25
Not really. If you scratch your lens cleaning it would you call it an inferior product?
User error is a better word....

I never touched my sensor. Not once. Ever. And I live in dry Southern California. And mine 'corroded'.

willie_901
03-17-2015, 08:37
As far as we know new KAF-18500 units (with original sensor cover-glass assemblies) are still available.

The scratching issue is tricky.

Might it be fair to speculate that a extremely light cover-glass scratches that ordinarily present no optical consequences (immediate or long-term) with other cameras eventually transform into larger, corrosion-enlarged defects on M9 KAF-18500 units?

The hypothesis is even the smallest disruption of the cover-glass coating accelerates the delamination of the water sensitive IR filter layer.

An alternate scenario would be the cover-glass protective coating (or coating application process) is simply defective and eventually humidity will penetrate the coating defect(s). This means even a cover glass with a perfect, scratch-free surface would eventually display optical artifacts.

jaapv
03-17-2015, 09:46
Might it be fair to speculate that a extremely light cover-glass scratches that ordinarily present no optical consequences (immediate or long-term) with other cameras eventually transform into larger, corrosion-enlarged defects on M9 KAF-18500 units?

That is exactly what is happening. It may even be that the smallest defect on a molecular level can be an entry port for moisture to start the corrosion process.

gunston
03-18-2015, 07:18
Acc. to an article in the latest LFI magazine, Leica is NOT working on a new sensor. They are working on a new cover glass for the sensor and most likely also an improved coating. The issue is the cover glass type which blocks infrared better than the M8 sensor cover glass type BUT is prone to corrosion by humidity once the coating gets scratched.

hi, which LFI edition mentioned about it.
Could you share more with us the status?

willie_901
03-18-2015, 07:26
That is exactly what is happening. It may even be that the smallest defect on a molecular level can be an entry port for moisture to start the corrosion process.


This is completely consistent with all the anecdotal evidence. Even in a clean room with all reasonable precautions to prevent any injury to the cover-glass coating, the coating could be compromised.

This us quite different than lens coatings as most lens coatings have been quite difficult to damage for a couple of decades.

Luke_Miller
03-18-2015, 08:11
Neither my M9 nor Monochrom have ever been wet cleaned (or contact cleaned at all) since they first left Leica's hands. Neither sensor glass is scratched, but both have experienced corrosion. Certainly seems like something in the manufacturing process leaves some sensors vulnerable, while others seem impervious.

CameraQuest
03-18-2015, 09:58
Neither my M9 nor Monochrom have ever been wet cleaned (or contact cleaned at all) since they first left Leica's hands. Neither sensor glass is scratched, but both have experienced corrosion. Certainly seems like something in the manufacturing process leaves some sensors vulnerable, while others seem impervious.

Considering the process of manufacturing, assembling, and quality control,

its difficult to imagine that some sensors (if not all) are not cleaned at least once before the the M9 / M9-P / MM / ME are shipped to dealers.

Stephen

shadowfox
03-18-2015, 11:00
jaapv is just sharing information that was shared with him.

There is no reason to shoot the messenger because you don't like the message. jaapv has proven himself very Leica knowledgeable time and time again. While the poll is certainly too small to be accurate, 1% failure seems too small a failure rate to many as well.

That said, until Leica shares hard facts stating how many cameras out of what total production have developed sensor corrosion problems, we will not know what the accurate sensor corrosion figures are. The discussion shows a lot of frustration and impatience over how the problem solution has played out so far.

Stephen

:eek:

Huss asked what is the source of the 1% figure.

How is that 'shooting the messenger'?

I'm sure a lot of people are wondering the same thing also.

gunston
03-29-2015, 02:26
Is the coating issue being rectified ?
Any news?

Huss
03-30-2015, 12:17
Is the coating issue being rectified ?
Any news?


I'd say no. Even the RF members with inside Leica info on this site have not addressed this question.

What we know is happening is they will replace the defective sensors with the same, apparently until the supply dries up. And/or offer a trade in allowance to an M.

I sold my M-E privately and bought an M demo (like new, refurbished, Leica warranty) as financially it was a much better deal than going the official Leica route. And I did not want to be w/o a camera for months again when/if it failed again.

hausen
03-30-2015, 12:31
My MM has been up there since first week of January, it has 1500 actuations and was around 6 months old when it left. I have a buyer for it when it returns, he was told 6 weeks, hopefully he is happy to keep waiting. A check by the NZ importer on behalf of the buyer identified the corrosion. I have had enough of Leica now, the 6 months figure indicated on this thread will piss me off no end if that does end up being true and I lose my sale.

Michael Markey
03-30-2015, 13:01
I`ve noticed that a few are now appearing for sale at UK dealers having had their sensors recently replaced.

jaapv
03-30-2015, 14:44
Is the coating issue being rectified ?
Any news?

No news. And I predict this will take time - and some time more:(. It will most probably be solved in the end, though...

gunston
03-30-2015, 15:18
I'd say no. Even the RF members with inside Leica info on this site have not addressed this question.

What we know is happening is they will replace the defective sensors with the same, apparently until the supply dries up. And/or offer a trade in allowance to an M.

I sold my M-E privately and bought an M demo (like new, refurbished, Leica warranty) as financially it was a much better deal than going the official Leica route. And I did not want to be w/o a camera for months again when/if it failed again.

sounds like forcing us and trading in for M240 is the only available option.
for many, M9/P M-E still a very good camera, i refuse to change, will be continue using it until it dies.

jaapv
03-30-2015, 22:43
As far as I am aware changing the sensor for free is an available option as well. Turnaround times will come down as the backlog is cleared and the supply chain smoothed out.

Of course it would be to Leica's benefit to take as many affected cameras out of the market as possible, pending a permanent solution, but I am not sure whether that is the optimum choice for all, or even most, users.

Huss
03-31-2015, 08:35
As far as I am aware changing the sensor for free is an available option as well. Turnaround times will come down as the backlog is cleared and the supply chain smoothed out.

Yes, I mentioned that. My turn around time was 4 months, and that was before this issue/offer was made. So before the current 'rush'.

As I mentioned, I made the move to the M as quite frankly I do not much care for the alternatives. I tried to like the Sonys but just do not gel with them. The M may have unnecessary features (video) but that can be disabled and the rest of it still functions pretty much like the way the idea of a film M made digital should.

I do greatly miss the lighter weight of the M-E though.

Nigel Meaby
04-02-2015, 01:30
Is that the "rush" of the 1% defective? :D

At the moment Red Dot in London have 5 M9-P's, three of which have replaced sensors and 2 out of five Monochrom's having had sensor replacements. I know you can't prove anything from those figures...but there are a heck of a lot of cameras having sensor replacement

ian_watts
04-02-2015, 02:13
At the moment Red Dot in London have 5 M9-P's, three of which have replaced sensors and 2 out of five Monochrom's having had sensor replacements. I know you can't prove anything from those figures...but there are a heck of a lot of cameras having sensor replacement

Yes, the 1% claim made by Jaap doesn't seem credible IMO. Interesting to see the prices being asked for those Monochroms at Red Dot. I guess the shop's hands are tied by the owners expectations but £4,500–£4,950 seems at least a thousand too high IMO if anyone expects to sell those cameras.

Michael Markey
04-02-2015, 03:06
I`ve been watching the Red Dot prices too ...and yes the prices seem over the top.
Still it`s interesting to see cameras appearing which have had new sensors and yet are being offered for sale.
I think that tells a different story.

ian_watts
04-02-2015, 05:19
Still it`s interesting to see cameras appearing which have had new sensors and yet are being offered for sale.
I think that tells a different story.

I think it tells two stories: that the sensor replacement process isn't enough for some owners to keep faith in the camera going forward (I have some sympathy with this position being once bitten) and that a new Monochrom is expected to be announced this spring.:D

MCTuomey
04-02-2015, 06:52
I think it tells two stories: that the sensor replacement process isn't enough for some owners to keep faith in the camera going forward (I have some sympathy with this position being once bitten) and that a new Monochrom is expected to be announced this spring.:D

Agree. A really nice buyers market is shaping up for those who wish to shoot CCD-equipped M bodies as a result of the coincidence of the sensor issue and the new Monochrom introduction (those current dealer prices will come down I suspect).

I should be indignant about losing money on the accelerated depreciation of my M9 and Monochrom caused by the sensor problem. I guess the reason I'm not too upset is that the cameras still work beautifully with my Leica glass and give me the same pleasure in use as always. I do wish I'd been as economically well-timed as others who transitioned to the M240 prior to the sensor problem surfacing.

gunston
04-02-2015, 07:37
that is why i still keeping my M8.2 which never had sensor issue.
while waiting my M9-P for 3 months until July

Pioneer
04-10-2015, 11:09
Aw come on now Huss. That is not true at all. :)

In truth, there has been a bunch of talk around this issue over the past 5 months. In fact, I would have to say that, with the exception of a few brief periods, the crickets haven't even had a chance. :D

Huss
04-10-2015, 11:36
Aw come on now Huss. That is not true at all. :)

In truth, there has been a bunch of talk around this issue over the past 5 months. In fact, I would have to say that, with the exception of a few brief periods, the crickets haven't even had a chance. :D

Sshh! Pioneer, I thought I deleted my comment before anyone had a chance to read it!
Cuz I thought better of it..

:)

asiafish
04-15-2015, 09:53
Or are they just stringing us along until the outrage fades away?
Seems with the new CEO, they may just replace them with the same until the supply runs out, and then offer the exchange for the M240 + $$$

My skepticism is a result of the fact that they are still selling M-Es new with the known defect . They should pull those from the shelf until they have the real fix, but the fact they have not suggests that maybe they are not working on one. And the truth of the matter is the avg new Leica buyer nowadays may never realize there is a problem as they hardly ever use their cameras..

Nikon recently showed how it should be done. They pulled all the D750s off the shelf while they repaired the flare issue.

No progress report on the development of the new CCD sensor is a bad sign. I'm in the tech industry, and we give updates to our customers/clients when we work on solutions. But nothing from Leica.

I want to believe there is a real fix coming, but with this new management...

Since Leica's official position is that they will repair the sensor forever thats good enough for me since it will very likely be completely obsolete long before they run out of parts. They still have M8 sensors, and are still making M9 sensors.

Also, the sensors themselves are fine, its the cover glass that is the problem, and I have no doubt that Leica will soon come up with a fix to the cover glass, or just keep replacing. When Leica replaces the sensor in a defective camera I highly doubt that they throw it away. Rather, they replace the cover glass and then re-use it in another defective camera and repeat the cycle.

With all of this in mind, I ordered a brand-new M-E last night because I love the idea of the longer repair warranty and prefer the CCD look. I also recently sent my M Monochrom to Leica for cleaning (no delimitation issues) and plan to and enjoy use my MM and M-E side-by-side for many years to come.

asiafish
04-15-2015, 10:06
I have to agree with Kwesi on this one. If your sensor is good and you are still feeling anxiety regardless of how others around you are being treated, then maybe it is time to sell your M9 and move on. I know your closest Leica store will be happy to discuss a trade in and upgrade. It may be worth it just to ease your mind.

BTW, though it sounds as if everyone is having serious problems with the M9/MM sensor I don't think that is true. Neither my M9 (5 years old) or my MM (1 year old) are currently afflicted. As I have said a number of times, I am sure there are an awful lot of owners out there who have no problems.

My M Monochrom turns 2-years-old in June, so in January I sent it to Leica to have it CLA'd with instructions to check for sensor corrosion. I got it back 4-weeks-later with notes that there is no corrosion on the sensor, that the sensor was cleaned and aligned and the rangefinder calibrated.

I was delighted with my M Monochrom before I sent it in. I'm delighted with it since getting it back, and I have every confidence that Leica will do as they said they would do should problems arise in the future.

I like the M9 platform and actually bought a used M9 back in January 2014, but returned it due to spots on the sensor (now identified as corrosion). I had been thinking about buying another used M9 since then, but yesterday finally just bit the bullet and bought a new M-E for $4200, which is only a few dollars more than a mint M9-P goes for with warranty.

A used M240 was definitely an option, but I recently sold off my DSLR kit to simplify, so getting an M-E lets me use the same batteries as my M Monochrom and has the same menus and controls.

Now I have only one interchangeable lens system, two types of batteries (Leica M9 and Leica X) and in digital at least, only two control layouts. My M5 is the odd duck out, but hey, its an M5.

asiafish
04-15-2015, 10:08
My MM is over 30K and over 2 years old and no sensor issues.

I've only got about 15K in two years, but like yours, mine has been perfect. I will say that yours takes better pictures than mine. Probably that photographer accessory you mounted behind it.

Dante_Stella
04-15-2015, 10:10
Agree. A really nice buyers market is shaping up for those who wish to shoot CCD-equipped M bodies as a result of the coincidence of the sensor issue and the new Monochrom introduction (those current dealer prices will come down I suspect).

I should be indignant about losing money on the accelerated depreciation of my M9 and Monochrom caused by the sensor problem. I guess the reason I'm not too upset is that the cameras still work beautifully with my Leica glass and give me the same pleasure in use as always. I do wish I'd been as economically well-timed as others who transitioned to the M240 prior to the sensor problem surfacing.

Yes, but what you lost on resale you will make up on price drops on the M240!

Dante

gunston
04-26-2015, 06:59
hopefully Leica will get it fix with a real glass without corrosion issue in near future

jaapv
04-27-2015, 01:46
Err.. it is real glass. In fact, the optimal glass for the application. The problem being that it is a type of glass that can superficially corrode when humid, as is the case with a number of types of optical glass. The standard solution was to cement a second layer of glass over it, but as the M9 needs an extremely thin filter stack the alternative, a sealing coating was chosen.
The coating may either exhibit microscopic porosities in a small number of cases or be damaged mechanically, giving humidity a starting point to delaminate the coating.
The problem now is to find a more stable glass/coating combination that will not degrade the optical performance. That takes time, as testing for corrosion takes time, even in laboratory conditions.

Richard G
04-27-2015, 02:21
My M9-P's sensor was changed. My MM seems fine. I haven't looked at the sensors or blown air there or anything for months and I am changing lenses regularly. The ones for sale at Red Dot indicate lots of things, maybe, but you just don't learn from those numbers what the denominator is. I'm regularly on RFF and sitting comfortably. There must be a lot of people just using their cameras who may not have even heard about all of this.

pepeguitarra
04-28-2015, 15:15
I sent my M9 to Leica (which I bought after selling my M8) in January and they sent me a letter saying that by the end of April will be back. I am waiting. Leica paid for the change and shipping. Since I really like my M9, I will continue to use. I had the sensor problem for more than two years, but it kept going worst. That is when I decided to send it. I knew it was going to be a long time, so I purchased an M8.U, which I really love. I will keep it after I get my M9 back. I trust Leica and will continue to use them. No lens beats Leica. I may not jump to the M240 anytime soon.

NazgulKing
05-02-2015, 13:02
Err.. it is real glass. In fact, the optimal glass for the application. The problem being that it is a type of glass that can superficially corrode when humid, as is the case with a number of types of optical glass. The standard solution was to cement a second layer of glass over it, but as the M9 needs an extremely thin filter stack the alternative, a sealing coating was chosen.
The coating may either exhibit microscopic porosities in a small number of cases or be damaged mechanically, giving humidity a starting point to delaminate the coating.
The problem now is to find a more stable glass/coating combination that will not degrade the optical performance. That takes time, as testing for corrosion takes time, even in laboratory conditions.

Well, a few things that come to mind.

1. It's the epoxy that degrades. The question is finding an alternative epoxy that doesn't degrade as fast.

2. The material often determines what epoxy is used. Is there another epoxy out there that works just as well?

3. Or is it the epoxy reacts with moisture and corrodes the glass?

On a side note, some Canon DSLRs just turned up a similar sensor/coating issue...

Steveh
05-02-2015, 13:27
I'm waiting for my M9 to be collected and shipped to Germany next week. I spoke to them in January and they took my details and told me they would get in touch when they were actually ready to do the work - I was told by the Leica Store Mayfair that replacement sensors are made in batches so they do the replacements in batches as well, and it does look like they're running a 4-5 month wait time. I'm moderately tempted by an M but the Leica upgrade pricing isn't that great so I have passed (plus my wife would kill me....). Customer service have been very good and they send a courier to collect the camera so no real complaints with the process so far.

Pioneer
05-02-2015, 20:22
According to Thom Hogan Nikon had some similar problems as well so it is not restricted just to Leica.

I think that believing there will never be a problem no matter how fast technology advances, or how cutting edge our cameras and sensors become, is very naive.

Huss
05-02-2015, 22:21
You wouldn't have to wait 5 months to get your camera back from Nikon.

They recently had an issue with sensor flare on the D750. Turn around time for the fix was max 2 weeks.

EEEEnteristingly, right now Canon has a huge sensor issue with their new EOS Rebel T6s/760D and T6i/750D cameras.
http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2015/04/canon-t6-sensor-issue

ChrisLivsey
05-03-2015, 01:15
You wouldn't have to wait 5 months to get your camera back from Nikon.


I suspect the repair teams available to Nikon are on a greater scale than Leica and also we have no idea of the numbers of Nikons returned for that particular repair nor the Leica numbers. That may also change as Nikon for example closes Canada repair centres
http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/nikon-canada-closing-servic.html

The issue of service costs and turnaround not to mention actual quality are well covered by you friends at Lens Rentals, do it once do it right, or for Nikon build it once build it right, again !
I have a horse in each race BTW Nikon and Leica.

willie_901
05-03-2015, 07:55
As best I can tell from reading objective commentary, the cover-glass coating is the culprit.

Either the coating application has thin spots. Or the coating is too fragile (even the most careful handling during manufacturing and/or subsequent cleaning disrupts the coating). Or the coating somehow degades... perhaps due to inevitable thermal expansion and contraction of the cover glass.

Whatever happens with the coating, this alone does not cause artifacts in the images.

The artifacts arise because IR filter itself is not designed to be humidity resistant. Once the IR coating degrades water reacts with the IR filter layer causing visible artifacts. With M cameras the IR filter layer must be as thin as possible, efficient and affordable. Sourcing is not trivial.

M9reno
05-03-2015, 13:16
My experience is that Wetzlar can send back a corroded camera with a "no corrosion" diagnosis. Just like they can send back a dirty sensor with a "clean sensor" report. Both things happened with my M9, before Leica agreed to a part exchange for an M240. Even then, the corrosion on my M9 was never officially confirmed.

How many affected sensors have been quietly replaced, over several months and years before the corrosion issue surfaced publicly, on cameras sent to Solms/Wetzlar for other service? Any cases of corrosion in many or most of those cameras won't have been officially confirmed, either.

Thus, surveys of corrosion incidence here or anywhere else won't be much good. Not only is the sampling too small, the criteria for positive diagnosis are subjective, and the treatment has not been transparent.

If anyone has remotely reliable numbers on this issue it will be Leica. If the 1% figure stems from them, and if it has any demonstrable basis in reality, it would behoove them to state so unambiguously. Instead, they have kept silent.

The figures they possess are probably too delicate - both in the reputational and legal sense - to publish, and the better course for them may appear to be to let the problem sort itself out in drips and drabs, as digital obsolescence takes its inevitable course and people stop using their M9s for one reason or another, and the furor dies away.

I have always doubted Leica's quest for a permanent solution to this problem. It is a negative view that has coloured my attitude to all of Leica's digital offerings since last year, and will continue to do so. It is admittedly based, faute de mieux, on just instinct, and I would be very happily surprised if one was found. But I personally doubt it will happen.

jaapv
05-04-2015, 07:09
Well, a few things that come to mind.

1. It's the epoxy that degrades. The question is finding an alternative epoxy that doesn't degrade as fast.

2. The material often determines what epoxy is used. Is there another epoxy out there that works just as well?

3. Or is it the epoxy reacts with moisture and corrodes the glass?

On a side note, some Canon DSLRs just turned up a similar sensor/coating issue...
It has nothing to do with Epoxy, it is a coating on the glass front side.

willie_901
05-04-2015, 09:00
Let's assume the 1% failure rate is accurate.

Then it was completely incitement to announce a M9 sensor replacement policy that shifted the financial burden to the customers. The damage to Leica's brand (image) is not worth cost savings to repair 1% of the cameras.

On the other hand, if the rate started out at ~ 1% and then grew at an alarming rate. Some time in 2014 Leica could have realized every M9 sensor assembly would eventually display the flaw. Then Leica might have decided to end the unofficial, out-of-warranty, free replacement policy. This is obviously a second assumption.

Of course Leica reversed their decision and did the right thing. So what actually happened doesn't matter. In any scenario the brand took a hit.

The true, but unknown, failure rate is proprietary information... as it should be. The same goes for whether or not all sensor assemblies will require replacement. Even whispers by Leica officials to customers with privileged relationships mean little.

Optimistic speculation would be the problem is solved and Leica is simply waiting for the inventory of new sensor assemblies to meet the projected demand. This way people would not be without their cameras for extended periods of time. Leica owners would praise the quick turn-around time... which reinforces brand dynamics that benefit Leica.

Before long some people would claim the new sensor assemblies render better than the old assemblies. The Leica film-era brand leverage would not just be maintained. It would be reinforced.

David Hughes
05-05-2015, 01:18
Hi,

We don't have any data to go on and yet we are all arguing about it.

FWIW, I doubt if Leica have all the figures although I guess they have a less vague idea of what's happening but won't know until the saga is over and done with, imo.

Worse still, now this is on the www people will look at it and quote our guesses as facts and it will end up like the FED/Zorki issues; only the FED/Zorki issues have more to do with the owners of the cameras and the history of them.

It's a pity Leica don't come in and tell us what they know, suitably arranged so they don't give too much away to the competition.

Regards, David

PS My guess is that they are replacing them so that the cameras can go on being used whilst they sort out the long term solution. I'll wish them luck with that.

willie_901
05-05-2015, 07:45
Since Leica knows how many M9s were purchased, and they know how many were sent in for repair, what makes you suspect they don't "have all the figures"?

I agree they may have not completed all the R&D required to solve the problem for once and for all.

brbo
05-05-2015, 08:21
I was told by the Leica Store Mayfair that replacement sensors are made in batches so they do the replacements in batches as well, and it does look like they're running a 4-5 month wait time.

So Leica has 1% failure rate and they are ordering replacement sensors in batches.

Someone needs to tell that manager to order batches of more than 3 sensors at a time.

David Hughes
05-05-2015, 10:28
Since Leica knows how many M9s were purchased, and they know how many were sent in for repair, what makes you suspect they don't "have all the figures"?

I agree they may have not completed all the R&D required to solve the problem for once and for all.

Hi,

They only have the figures up to today.

I don't think for one moment that they have contacted every owner and got an answer from each one. Even if they had more may fail tomorrow and so on and so forth...

Regards, David

CameraQuest
05-05-2015, 10:42
Personally Leica's official story on the cause of M9 sensor corrosion makes no sense to me,
as many M9 users have posted zero problems -- while others seem to have nothing but problems or even repeated problems.

Possibly there are other contributing factors - including but not limited to

QC of components
QC of installation and assembly
unannounced spec chances by component manufacturers

Stephen

NazgulKing
05-05-2015, 10:47
It has nothing to do with Epoxy, it is a coating on the glass front side.

This will be the first time when I have heard of AR coating or any kind of coating on any front surface degrading under normal use. Are you sure it is not between the front glass and the sensor itself? Also, I had the same issue with my M9 before I sold it long ago and the corrosion was certainly beneath the glass surface.

Vobluda
05-05-2015, 10:59
I took mine M9-P when it had spots on the pictures to local official Canon service and they have show me the sensor under magnifier they use when cleaning sensors.
Corrosion was on the first layer surface and it looked like many many small holes.


This will be the first time when I have heard of AR coating or any kind of coating on any front surface degrading under normal use. Are you sure it is not between the front glass and the sensor itself? Also, I had the same issue with my M9 before I sold it long ago and the corrosion was certainly beneath the glass surface.

jonoslack
05-08-2015, 12:44
This will be the first time when I have heard of AR coating or any kind of coating on any front surface degrading under normal use. Are you sure it is not between the front glass and the sensor itself? Also, I had the same issue with my M9 before I sold it long ago and the corrosion was certainly beneath the glass surface.

As I understand it, it's a known 'possibility' with the glass type (which was also used by Kodak on the SLR/n (apparently . . without trouble). I certainly also understand that the problem is on the front of the cover glass (not between the layers.

I'm quite certain that Leica are looking for a solution - why would they not? Added to which, someone at Wetzlar who I know well and trust absolutely told me so. To that end, my MM and M9 , which both seem to have the issue (but not so that it really affects the image quality), are waiting to see if there's a permanent solution.

Huss
05-08-2015, 13:08
I'm quite certain that Leica are looking for a solution - why would they not? Added to which, someone at Wetzlar who I know well and trust absolutely told me so.


Because it may be easier for Leica to migrate CCD owners to the CMOS platform. It most probably would be decided by management, not the engineers. And now that there is a new CEO in charge..

Pioneer
05-08-2015, 14:25
It is fun to speculate, and there is an awful lot of that going on.

What we do know is this:
- Leica is replacing sensors in cameras with sensor corrosion.
- Leica is providing quotes for those who would rather upgrade to a newer M240.
- Leica has stated that they are looking for a solution and there is no confirmed information to the contrary, just speculation.
- The day that one of us gets a letter from Leica that says they are no longer replacing sensors and that we will have to upgrade instead, everyone will know!!

Until then my M9 continues to take wonderful just as I expected it would when I bought it. :)

asiafish
05-21-2015, 14:40
It is fun to speculate, and there is an awful lot of that going on.

What we do know is this:
- Leica is replacing sensors in cameras with sensor corrosion.
- Leica is providing quotes for those who would rather upgrade to a newer M240.
- Leica has stated that they are looking for a solution and there is no confirmed information to the contrary, just speculation.
- The day that one of us gets a letter from Leica that says they are no longer replacing sensors and that we will have to upgrade instead, everyone will know!!

Until then my M9 continues to take wonderful just as I expected it would when I bought it. :)

Mine too, and my M Monochrom (CCD) is better still.

IdealCamera
05-21-2015, 15:28
When did Leica state that they were working on a new CCD sensor? Please provide a link to that press release.

willie_901
05-22-2015, 06:43
Perhaps this (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Important+Information+Concerning+the+CCD+Sensor s+of+the+Leica+M9) will be useful.

Be sure to read the second paragraph on the web page in the first entry.

IdealCamera
05-22-2015, 06:55
Perhaps this (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Important+Information+Concerning+the+CCD+Sensor s+of+the+Leica+M9) will be useful.

Be sure to read the second paragraph.

Yes, I fear you mistook sarcasm for ignorance. Predictably, the second paragraph of the official Leica release (which I read at the time) says nothing about a new CCD sensor.

More exactly, this is what it says: "We have now identified the problem and are currently concentrating our efforts on finding a permanent technical solution . . . ." Some would project their wishes or errant thoughts on this and concoct stories about new CCD sensors. Others will cheer them on.

Now, let's see what the dictionary says about the terms "pedant" and "wrong." Be sure to read the definition of the second one.

Dante_Stella
05-22-2015, 07:41
They use Schott S8612 glass for the IR filter. It is the highest efficiency IR blocking glass that exists (it only takes 1mm of glass to do the job). It is also well documented that it degrades with humidity. This is a standard component of a lot of IR/UV filter packs on sensors, but on the M it is probably closer to the environment. It is usually hard-coated to forestall degradation.

http://www.us.schott.com/advanced_optics/english/download/schott-bandpass-s-8612-dec-2014-en.pdf

Dante

Freakscene
05-27-2015, 00:18
Camera Clinic (Australia) just contacted me to let me know my Monochrom's sensor is corroded (I already knew - I'd looked with a dissecting microscope - but it was nice to get confirmation). Leica Australia confirmed I'm being offered an upgrade to a Typ 246.

I'm going to take it; this is my second corroded sensor since August 2012.

Marty

willie_901
05-27-2015, 07:51
The problem is one of linguistics.

As far as I know Leica has nothing to do with sensors. They don't design them, nor do they manufacture them. Leica outsources it's sensors.

At the same, Leia is deeply involved with engineering the best possible sensor assembly. The sensor itself may be the main component, but the micro lenses, color-filter array (even the Leica monochrome cameras have a CFA, but it's not an RGB CFA), the IR filter and the protective color glass. These components Leica specifies play a significant role in technical IQ.

The issue: is will Leica fund the R&D, engineering and manufacturing costs involved with producing a M9 IR-filter/cover-glass component for the M9 sensor assembly. It seems unlikely the CCD sensor in existing M9 sensor assemblies will be reused. Instead the exact same Kodak-desgined CCD sensor (now built by another manufacturer) would be part of a new sensor assembly unit. The new sensor assembly could have either a different IR filter (that is not degrade quickly when exposed to humidity) or an improved cover-glass coating formulation to insure humidity can't reach the IR filter (unless the cover glass is abused).

Leica will never have access to a different CCD sensor. CCD sensors are rarely used in new still-imafing products. Their use and development is for specialized industrial and scientific applications. The cost per unit would be extremely high because only M9 owners value CCD sensors (actually they value the CCD sensor assembly).

If the Leica M9 sensor assembly unit was not the value-added component, M9 proponents would also claim other CCD cameras, such as the Nikon D200, produced aesthetically superior color rendering, etc. Of course, they do not.

I can't think of any technical basis for how CCD pinned-diodes can convert the electrical components of visible light waves waves to electrical charge with more fidelity than a pinned-diode in a CMOS sensor.

But I can think of several reasons the sensor assembly can produce aesthetically unique, desirable images.

Ronald M
05-27-2015, 07:56
My opinion is yes, but with limited resources.

I read somewhere there was an alternative ir coating not sensitive to corrosion that could have been used at 10 % exposure penalty. I would have taken the 10 % myself.

Pioneer
05-27-2015, 10:14
Even if the sensor results were pretty mundane and looked more like a surveillance camera?

10% is quite a bit in the electronic world.

Huss
06-09-2015, 11:29
So, another month has passed, and nothing but silence. I'm hoping that Raid will get to talk to Leica's new CEO and ask him.

CameraQuest
06-09-2015, 12:40
there is some speculation on the net that Blackstone is looking for a Leicaexit - perhaps selling out to Panasonic.

I can't help but wonder if the final M9 sensor solution and accompanying necessary financial investment
will be put on hold until Blackstone exits. hmmm.

Stephen

Huss
06-10-2015, 13:16
Looks like the release of the Q shows no-one over there is working on the CCD sensor fix.

airfrogusmc
06-30-2015, 11:46
Looks like the release of the Q shows no-one over there is working on the CCD sensor fix.

They're not?
http://en.leica-camera.com/World-of-Leica/Leica-News/About-Leica-News/Global/2015/Latest-information-CCD-sensors

Pioneer
06-30-2015, 12:36
Well, Huss should be happy now. :D

I am amazed he hasn't commented yet since he seems to check regularly.

airfrogusmc
06-30-2015, 12:39
Well, Huss should be happy now. :D

I am amazed he hasn't commented yet since he seems to check regularly.

Looks like they've been working on it. Good news I'd say.

Looks like he should be able to get his camera taken care of now for sure.

Huss
06-30-2015, 12:58
Well, Huss should be happy now. :D

I am amazed he hasn't commented yet since he seems to check regularly.


:D

Just saw this.

Gotta be honest, I was not expecting it. This is great news. I am really looking forward to images taken with this new CCD sensor as I'm not totally loving the results from my M240 with the CMOS.
They are just lacking in that sparkle that the CCD gave.

If the new CCD performs, then I can see a used market where the M9 series will be worth more than the M CMOS cameras.

airfrogusmc
06-30-2015, 13:11
I have not experienced any problems with my MM. Over 30K and 2 1/2 years. This is really good news if I do. I will get a new sensor that will not have the corrosion issue.

CameraQuest
06-30-2015, 13:39
""Latest information on the CCD sensors of the Leica M9 / M9-P / M Monochrom and M-E camera models"

Is the heading referring to the CCD sensors that will be replaced, new CCD sensors that are being developed, or both?

Will the newly developed sensors be CCD or CMOS ?

If CCD, I wonder if there will be a new M's with the new CCD sensor?

Stephen

Calzone
07-01-2015, 06:24
:D

Just saw this.

Gotta be honest, I was not expecting it. This is great news. I am really looking forward to images taken with this new CCD sensor as I'm not totally loving the results from my M240 with the CMOS.
They are just lacking in that sparkle that the CCD gave.

If the new CCD performs, then I can see a used market where the M9 series will be worth more than the M CMOS cameras.

Huss,

I'm with you that the CCD rendering is kinda special. On my MM9 I get this wonderful midrange tonality that is very medium format like.

The CMOS sensor seems to have better highlights and shadow detail, meaning more extended dynamic range, but the mids look a bit scooped to me when compared to the CCD of the MM9.

BTW I wouldn't mind a M-246 as an addition eventually, but the MM9 with the CCD for me is a keeper.

Cal

kermaier
07-17-2015, 10:27
:D

Just saw this.

Gotta be honest, I was not expecting it. This is great news. I am really looking forward to images taken with this new CCD sensor as I'm not totally loving the results from my M240 with the CMOS.
They are just lacking in that sparkle that the CCD gave.

If the new CCD performs, then I can see a used market where the M9 series will be worth more than the M CMOS cameras.

I brought my M9-P to Leica NJ this morning (I live 20 minutes away, so no sense shipping it), to have them check out my RF cam roller, which doesn't seem to be rolling. They came back with a good-news/bad-news story: Good news is that the cam roller is a simple fix (for "only" $250); bad news is my sensor is corroded.
They offered me an upgrade to M-P for $3500 (gulp) or a free sensor replacement, with RF adjustment thrown into the bargain.
They confirmed to me that the updated sensor module has been developed, but it's still in testing, and they don't know when they'll be released and available; so if I want it fixed now I'd be getting a new original sensor. (And "now" is a relative term, as they're taking appointments for September for when they'd be able to fix my camera.)
What to do?....

Timmyjoe
07-17-2015, 10:33
Sorry to hear about your camera kermaier.

From my understanding, Leica is not developing a new CCD sensor, they are developing a new CCD sensor cover, the clear glass part in front of the CCD. From my understanding, it is the glass cover that develops the corrosion.

I hope they have a good solution because if I ever experience the corrosion on my M-E, I want a CCD sensor module replacement, not a CMOS camera as a replacement.

kermaier
07-17-2015, 10:33
If the new CCD performs, then I can see a used market where the M9 series will be worth more than the M CMOS cameras.

Hey, if you want to trade your M240 for my corroded M9-P, and wait for the new sensors to arrive at Leica Repair, you'll come out ahead on the deal! :D

Srono
07-17-2015, 10:34
I brought my M9-P to Leica NJ this morning (I live 20 minutes away, so no sense shipping it), to have them check out my RF cam roller, which doesn't seem to be rolling. They came back with a good-news/bad-news story: Good news is that the cam roller is a simple fix (for "only" $250); bad news is my sensor is corroded.
They offered me an upgrade to M-P for $3500 (gulp) or a free sensor replacement, with RF adjustment thrown into the bargain.
They confirmed to me that the updated sensor module has been developed, but it's still in testing, and they don't know when they'll be released and available; so if I want it fixed now I'd be getting a new original sensor. (And "now" is a relative term, as they're taking appointments for September for when they'd be able to fix my camera.)
What to do?....

IMHO, just get the free sensor replacement first. If Leica will come out with upgraded sensor, you are also eligible to change again. If you upgrade M9-P now, it is still original sensor anyway.

Also, $3500 is too much for upgrade, it can buy you another very good condition M9-P now.

kermaier
07-17-2015, 10:35
Sorry to hear about your camera querier.

From my understanding, Leica is not developing a new CCD sensor, they are developing a new CCD sensor cover, the clear glass part in front of the CCD. From my understanding, it is the glass cover that develops the corrosion.

I hope they have a good solution because if I ever experience the corrosion on my M-E, I want a CCD sensor module replacement, not a CMOS camera as a replacement.

Yes, it's just the cover glass; if they replaced the sensor with a different type, then all the rest of the M9's electronics would be incompatible.

kermaier
07-17-2015, 10:41
IMHO, just get the free sensor replacement first. If Leica will come out with upgraded sensor, you are also eligible to change again. If you upgrade M9-P now, it is still original sensor anyway.

Also, $3500 is too much for upgrade, it can buy you another very good condition M9-P now.

Well, if I get the sensor replacement now, then I can get a new sensor replacement later only if the corrosion recurs -- and who knows if the free replacement policy will still be in place a few years from now?

If I upgrade to an M-P(240) now, it's not the original sensor -- the CMOS sensor doesn't seem to be affected by the same issue as the M9 series CCD sensor package. But I agree: while $3500 is half price for a new M-P(240), it's still too much -- I could probably sell my M-9P for almost that much, and buy a used M240 for only $1000-$1500 more.

Pioneer
07-17-2015, 22:11
It would be an easy decision for me. Get it fixed and then keep on photographing while using the camera I really enjoy.

It sometimes seems to me that it is too easy to over think these things.

Srono
07-17-2015, 22:49
If I upgrade to an M-P(240) now, it's not the original sensor -- the CMOS sensor doesn't seem to be affected by the same issue as the M9 series CCD sensor package. But I agree: while $3500 is half price for a new M-P(240), it's still too much -- I could probably sell my M-9P for almost that much, and buy a used M240 for only $1000-$1500 more.

Im really sorry that i misread MP as M9P. So my arguments are no longer valid.
Btw, M240 new in Hongkong costed only usd$4200+ when i checked.

jaapv
09-01-2015, 08:31
Anyway, the problem is solved. Leica will, from now on, replace the affected sensors with the new type. Note - only corroded sensors will be replaced.

http://en.leica-camera.com/World-of-Leica/Leica-News/About-Leica-News/Global/2015/Update-CCD-Sensor


We can find a report by a beta tester here (in German):

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/249568-leica-m9-korrosion-sensoraustausch-m9-m9-p-und-m-e-beginnt/?p=2880512


Summary:

No significant difference with the old CCD, Firmware the same, AWB might be marginally cooler.

Michael Markey
09-01-2015, 12:25
Yes ...that`s good news.

dpetrzelka
09-14-2015, 12:45
Has anyone had their M9 sensor replaced with the new CCD yet?

asiafish
09-22-2015, 03:17
It would be an easy decision for me. Get it fixed and then keep on photographing while using the camera I really enjoy.

It sometimes seems to me that it is too easy to over think these things.

Exactly what I did. My M-E arrived yesterday with a new (original type) sensor.

TRIago
10-18-2015, 01:08
Has anyone had their M9 sensor replaced with the new CCD yet?

There is no new CCD. It is the same CCD with a new sensor glass.
I have the CCD w/ new sensor glass few days ago from Wetzlar.
Pretty happy with it.

willie_901
10-18-2015, 07:58
There is no new CCD. It is the same CCD with a new sensor glass.
I have the CCD w/ new sensor glass few days ago from Wetzlar.
Pretty happy with it.

The first report from someone with the new sensor assembly.

It's great to hear you are pleased with the new unit!