M7 or a Zeiss Ikon ZM?

[Tim Gray]

You know, I've actually gotten used to the M style of loading film. If it weren't for the bottom plate completely detaching, it's almost easier than loading my Canon SLR. I find it difficult sometimes to balance that with a lens, having the back swung open with all the internals exposed, etc. Thought the Canon certainly does have it beat in terms of just pulling the film to the right spot and closing the back. The auto winding is nice.

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Many Leica users and collectors want the Leica just because it has something extra, that hardly any other make has and certainly not the ZM's, that is it has become - since long - a (perhaps THE) CULT camera. So if you want to include that, in the end you take the M7. Shooting with Leica's is a way of life as they say.

[kipkeston]

Having owned an M7 and never a ZM, I'd get a ZM. I preferred my beat M6 to the shiny M7 so I sold it. AE was superfluous.

[whitecat]

I have used cameras for at least 45 yrs. I have had many including 5 different model Leica M's. I have had one Zeiss ZM. I prefer the Zeiss. Best viewfinder going and I have looked thru many.

[Al Kaplan]

The loading system was really quite rational compared to the earlier no-back-flap of the pre-M models, but when the Leica first hit the market the alternative was a pocket full of single sided 4.5x6cm plate holders for your Ermanox with its 100mm f/2 lens..

[andrewteee]

I just bought a ZM. Like, 15 minutes ago I wanted a rangefinder, not necessarily a Leica. I borrowed a ZM for a few weeks sometime ago and loved it. I loved the viewfinder. I thought the camera handled really well. The 35mm f2 Biogon lens was really good.

I simply could not justify the cost of the Leica, particularly since I'm also buying a lens or two. I held a Leica about two years ago and that is the extent of my physical experience with it. I don't think I would like bottom loading film.

Can't wait for the weekend

[kshapero]

I am enjoying this thread. I have 2 ZI's. I will probably sell one and get an M7 to see what all the fuss is about.

[jonmanjiro]

I recently was looking for a 2nd body to use alongside a ZI. As a (mainly) slide film shooter aperture priority was a must, as was a 28mm frame line in the finder.

So, M7, Hexar, or another ZI? I checked several used samples of each in Tokyo.

M7 - solid but heavy, cumbersome film loading, 28 frames really hard to see, these things still have a burnable cloth shutter?, only 1/1000 top speed, expensive in comparison to the other two options.

Hexar - solid but heavy (maybe heavier than an M7?), 28 frames easy to see but the finder seemed a little dark and is lower mag than the 0.72 Leica and ZI finders, metal shutter, 1/4000 top speed, cheapest option.

ZI - just can't beat that finder, noticably lighter than the other two options, metal shutter, 1/2000 top speed, great meter.

I came home with another ZI.

[maddoc]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

M7
The RF patch moves with the framelines

"The patch moves with the framelines" ! I handled a ZI once and found it awkward seeing the RF patch close to the corners of the frame lines at infinity and also at close-focus distance. Thought it was a defect camera, though...

[Photo Panda]

I've used M7 for a month.It's more flexible than MP and M6 for everyday use,and its shutter is more silent.But the skin is easy to fall off,which is really boring.I didn't meet such a problem on my MP or M6.

[jonmanjiro]

Originally Posted by maddoc

"The patch moves with the framelines" ! I handled a ZI once and found it awkward seeing the RF patch close to the corners of the frame lines at infinity and also at close-focus distance.

Yes, one to the M7 in that regard. The focus patch on Nikon RF, Bessa, Hexar and ZI cameras do not move with the frameline so maybe the Leicas are the only cameras that do that?!

[maddoc]

Originally Posted by jonmanjiro

Yes, one to the M7 in that regard. The focus patch on Nikon RF, Bessa, Hexar and ZI cameras do not move with the frameline so maybe the Leicas are the only cameras that do that?!

Could be, albeit I had the Hexar RF (and also the Epson R-D1s) but never noticed a difference regarding this to my Leicas.

[jonmanjiro]

Originally Posted by maddoc

Could be, albeit I had the Hexar RF (and also the Epson R-D1s) but never noticed a difference regarding this to my Leicas.

Probably just more obvious with the large bright ZI finder.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by andrewteee

I don't think I would like bottom loading film.

It's really not that big of a deal. It just takes a little practice. At this point I can load an M about as fast as my Nikon F3 and certainly faster than the original F.

[noimmunity]

Originally Posted by jonmanjiro

I recently was looking for a 2nd body to use alongside a ZI. As a (mainly) slide film shooter aperture priority was a must, as was a 28mm frame line in the finder.

So, M7, Hexar, or another ZI? I checked several used samples of each in Tokyo.

M7 - solid but heavy, cumbersome film loading, 28 frames really hard to see, these things still have a burnable cloth shutter?, only 1/1000 top speed, expensive in comparison to the other two options.

Hexar - solid but heavy (maybe heavier than an M7?), 28 frames easy to see but the finder seemed a little dark and is lower mag than the 0.72 Leica and ZI finders, metal shutter, 1/4000 top speed, cheapest option.

ZI - just can't beat that finder, noticably lighter than the other two options, metal shutter, 1/2000 top speed, great meter.

I came home with another ZI.

a second ZI? congratulations and enjoy!!!

[jonmanjiro]

Originally Posted by noimmunity

a second ZI? congratulations and enjoy!!!

Thanks Jon! Just doing my bit to refloat the Japanese economy

[roundg]

I guess the question reply how much money u have in your pocket or how much u are willing to pay for a camera.

Generally you won't go wrong with either camera. yes they are two different level priced items and they are two different level of camera indeed.

[kywong]

I got a M6 and a ZI, and I must say the ZI's viewfinder is amazing, suddenly the viewfinder on the M6 seem small...

I still haven't quite adjusted to the shutter info being displayed on the left, and I think when I do I would still prefer the information being displayed on the bottom. Also my ZM is already misaligned at infinity, though it has not affected focusing accuracy. The Leica does feel like the more solid product in many ways and I actually much prefer the Leica loading mechanism. The ZI's shutter does make a little more noise and is less satisfying than the Leica click, but it's fine.

I have only handled a M7 for a couple of weeks a long time ago, but I am under the impression that it's easier to add exposure compensation on the ZI than M7, though on the flip side the ZI's shutter dial is awfully fiddly.

All things considered though, the issues I have with the ZI's are minor. I got a tidy example of the ZI for just $800, and at the end of the day I would have to say the bigger VF and the vastly cheaper price makes it the winner for me.

[DGA]

ZI (and not just because I own one).
A friend of mine used to have an M6 (which, as I've told, resemble the size and shape of the M7).
After he took my ZI for a quick ride, he sold his M6, bought a ZI of his own and never looked back.
I think that the only thing better in the M7 is the patch which does not disappear as in the ZI. but I got used to it and look at it as a fair trade-off for the huge-bright viewfinder.

[George S.]

I've owned M7s in the past, loved them and only sold them when I needed to raise some cash, and I use an M6 Classic as my everyday RF. I was looking for a reasonably priced used M7 and kept coming up on the short end. So I took the plunge on a new ZI for $1300 after reading all the posts here!

Here's my 2c... The ZI doesn't feel flimsy, it just feels like a "modern" camera. Nothing built today will have the weight of a Leica for various reasons. The Leicas follow a design path laid out in the 1950s (M3). Pick up any item built in 1955 and you'll get what I'm saying. (Auto, TV, toaster, whatever). The viewfinder and VF patch seem positively huge and super bright. Yes, you can make the patch dimmer by moving your eye around, but in no time you'll "get it" with regard to looking thru it and it won't be a problem. The film load and exposure comp are great advantages over the Leica. The shutter sound differences are very minor and a non issue in reality. The only minor "issues" I can point to are 1- the first time I attached a flash (Leica SF-20) and removed it, the thin chrome metal piece that is the bottom of the camera's flash shoe was suddenly flopping around but still inside the shoe. I pressed it down and it very solidly clicked into place and hasn't come loose yet. 2.- The rewind crank assembly feels very light and flimsy, when I pull it out to remove the film cannister it feels like my big hands could pull it right off. Makes me wonder if that will last 20 years. Everything else feels and looks solidly made and has a quality look and feel to it.

[Sam N]

Originally Posted by George S.

The Leicas follow a design path laid out in the 1950s (M3). Pick up any item built in 1955 and you'll get what I'm saying. (Auto, TV, toaster, whatever).

...

The rewind crank assembly feels very light and flimsy, when I pull it out to remove the film cannister it feels like my big hands could pull it right off. Makes me wonder if that will last 20 years. Everything else feels and looks solidly made and has a quality look and feel to it.

I think the feel comes mostly down to weight and flexibility. My 1950s Rolleicord (made by Germans, even!) is lightweight and, while very well built just like my ZI, is not as "solid" feeling as a Leica M. Meanwhile, today's pro DSLRs (1D mark3, etc.) feel extremely solid. The 1D and the Leica are heavier than their counterparts and mainly one piece of metal, which makes them feel more sturdy.

As for the ZIs rewind crank, I think the reason it feels so light is that it's so simple and small. It just pops right into the bottom of the film canister.

[mojobebop]

i'd like an m7
but even used kind of out of my range.

[peripatetic]

What's not to love about a Leica?

And yet I got a ZI - the main reason for me was that I wear eyeglasses and I found it really quite tricky to see through the Leica viewfinder; the ZI by comparison was a breeze.

I do find the shutter speed display to be difficult to read sometimes, but as I mostly use A mode and negative film, as long as I can get the shutter somewhere between 1/60 and 1/2000 I'm not too bothered. It lets me concentrate more on the picture I want.

I may well still end up with a Leica one day, but if I do I will take to wearing contact lenses at the same time.

There is one other thing - just about no-one recognises the ZI. People either think it's an old camera or think it looks really cool. I have never even momentarily though that someone might mug me for it. A Leica is a Leica, everyone knows the brand. This is of course both a good and bad thing. No need to spell it out.

[reala_fan]

The RF patch most certainly _does_ move with the frame in my Hexar RF.

Originally Posted by jonmanjiro

Yes, one to the M7 in that regard. The focus patch on Nikon RF, Bessa, Hexar and ZI cameras do not move with the frameline so maybe the Leicas are the only cameras that do that?!

[jonmanjiro]

Originally Posted by reala_fan

The RF patch most certainly _does_ move with the frame in my Hexar RF.

Woops! Thanks for the correction.