Shooting Eastman (Double-X) 5222 in the Leica
Old 01-07-2008   #1
Nokton48
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Shooting Eastman (Double-X) 5222 in the Leica

Hi All,

I've recently become interested in shooting Kodak Double-X (Eastman 5222) motion picture film in my new early Leica M2. I know that Tom Abrahamsson, Al Kaplan, and others here have been using this film, from time to time.

Here is the Kodak teaser:

http://motion.kodak.com/US/en/motion...Films/5222.htm

And, here is the technical stuff from Kodak, it comes in 400, 1000, and 4000 foot rolls:





http://www.theasc.com/ac_magazine/De...e/image450.php


Today I contacted Film Emporium in NYC, they had -one- 400 foot roll of Eastman 5222 "Long Ends" to sell to me, at 20 cents a foot. Cost me 80US Bucks plus ten for Fedex. Not bad at all for 400 feet of retro motion picture stock.

http://www.tapesuperstore.com/5222bw200.html

Interestingly, in doing a google search, I discovered that the opening scenes in the James Bond film, CASINO ROYALE, were filmed with Eastman 5222.

See here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNvzNWuzI9Y

Last edited by Nokton48 : 06-23-2011 at 15:11.
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I've wanted to....
Old 01-08-2008   #2
jolefler
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I've wanted to....

but 400' is tough to justify for an experiment. I've contacted Film Emporium a few times, but they never seem to have a short end of 100-200 feet.

I've really gotten into "retro" B&W lately (read: flare-prone, soft contrast & grainy)....sounds like the right stuff to use.

Anybody here want to split some with me?

Jo
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Old 01-10-2008   #3
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Tom A and I have been sending info on XX and developing back on forth. Following is a message I sent him

Tom, Interesting information on using Hc-110 and Double XX. I just developed 4 rolls of XX at 250 in a developer called Adox Borax MQ. It is a D-76 like developer but with enough changes that 10-20% more time is added to D-76 times. It is perfect for using in a Jobo because i can use D-76 times that are listed and because 10-20 % was supposed to be added the agitation of the Jobo cancels that out and D-76 times can be used.

I used 7 min at 68 degrees with this developer and XX at 250 and the results were outstanding. I'm going to repeat this until i find a better developer. The tones are outstanding which is something with this streak of cloudy weather we are having in the NW. I live in Skagit County just south of the Border.

The Formula:

ADOX Borax MQ
________________________________________
Adox Borax MQ

Metol 2 gm

Sodium Sulphite (anhydrous) 80 gm

Hydroquinone 4 gm

Borax 4 gm

Potassium Bromide 0.5 gm

Water to make 1.0 liter

This is similar to D-76 with slightly better sharpness, but development times must be increased by 10 - 20 %.

This developer formula was used for testing the DIN speed of films. It gives full film speed, excellent tonality and improved sharpness compared to D-76


I actually make a quart and have a replenisher formula that I add at the rate of 20ml a roll. If anyone is interested in the replenisher I will list it also.



Leo
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Old 01-10-2008   #4
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Adox Borax Mq Replenisher

20 ml per roll

Metol 3g
Sodium Sulphite 80g
Hydroquinone 5g
Borax 18g

Water to 1 liter


I have used Adox Borax MQ developer and replenisher with several types of film and all have been outstanding.

Leo

Last edited by lkgroup : 01-10-2008 at 10:18.
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Old 01-10-2008   #5
Tom A
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here is the "official" Kodak developer for Double XX. I mix it in 2000ml volume as my 5 reel tanks hold about 1500 ml.

Water @ 50+C 1500 ml
Metol/Elon 3 grams
Sodium Sulphite (anhydrous) 150 grams
Hydroquinone 3 grams
Potassium Bromide 0,8 gram
Borax (20 Mule Team) 9 grams
Water to 2000 ml.

Replenisher
Water @ 50C 750 ml
Metol 1 gram
Sodium Sulphite (anhydrous) 160 gtams (!).
Hydroquinone 4 grams
Borax 10 grams
Water t0 1000 ml.

The developer is a close variant of D76 and with a moderate amount of Sodium Sulphite in it. I tend to mix it and use the replenisher (20 ml/roll) until it is used up, after which I dump it all and make up a new batch (it gives me 50 rolls). The stock solution gets quite "crappy" after a while. Small filmparticles, dust etc collects in it and I do filter it every 20-25 rolls, just in case!
The Replenisher has a LOT of Sodium Sulphite in it. It is almost a saturated solution so you will find undissolved particles of SS in it. I recommen that you mix it and let it stand overnight and filter it once before using (OK, if you like spotting prints -don't filter!).
It is a softer working developer, great midtones and it will tame a bright scene, Not supersharp as the Sodium Sulphite "mushes" up the grain a bit, but for anything up to a 11x14 it works fine. Great combination too if you are using some of the modern lenses with excessive contrast as it flattens it a bit.
My times for the D 96 so far has been:
Double XX 6.5 min
Tri X 7.0
Fuji Acros 100 6min (only a couple of runs with that, so times are a bit inconclusive).

The XX is a nice film - however one should remember that it is a movie stock, made for projection, thus surface blemishes are not as important as with a "still" film. Occasionally you will find gelatin specks in it. If you project it at 24fps no problem, but if you are printing from it - you have to spot or bleach the print.
It is by no means pervasive, but something that happens occasionally.

Last edited by Tom A : 08-04-2011 at 15:11.
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Old 01-10-2008   #6
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Tom A & Leo,

This sounds like great stuff! My 400' roll of labeled "RECAN" arrived in an obviously repackaged "Vivid Color" Eastman metal movie can, wrapped with surgical adhesive tape.

The D-96 seems pretty good too, I've been thinking about getting a few bulk chemicals, anyway recently. It uses standard products, noting exotic, nothing I haven't ordered previously. Can you use 20 Mule Team Borax from the grocery store? I think you can.

My new M2 should arrive any day, so I'm going down into the darkroom this weekend, to load up a couple of boxes of Kodak Snap-Caps. That will give me twenty rolls of the XX, to start with the M2.

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Old 01-10-2008   #7
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20 Mule Team from the grocey store works fine. It is pretty well pure Borax. We used to go to Death Valley for Christmas in the late 80's and early 90's and I started to use Borax bought at the source and it came in the 20 mule team box.
I did think of buying a larger quantity while there, but 5000 kg was a bit excessive and would have taxed our Transvan's suspension.
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Old 01-11-2008   #8
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Checking my cache of bulk darkroom chemicals, I have found all ingredients I need to mix the D96 (never been to Death Valley) excepting Sodium Sulphite, so I ordered a pound of that. The Twenty Mule Team I'll get next trip to the grocery. I spooled up a roll of the XX last night. My five Bessas are all loaded with various films right now, but I will load some XX into one of the Bessa-R's ASAP.

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Old 01-13-2008   #9
Tom A
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Leo, thanks for the tip on Adox. I just did 5 rolls last night - 7 min and the XX looks really good. Sharp and even mid-tones. I will try to "Flickerize" some of the shots later today, but now I am heading out and shooting some more XX.
It is not a fine grain film, but the slightly lower Sodium Sulphite content in the Adox (compared to D-76) gives it a bit of an edge.
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Old 01-13-2008   #10
Tom A
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Just finished downloading 20-21 shots done with XX and the Adox. Looks really good as a film/dev. combination.
Check on our Flickr for them.
Tom
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Old 01-13-2008   #11
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I'd love to try this. Any idea where to get this film in Europe?
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Old 01-13-2008   #12
Tom A
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I suspect that you would have to talk to Kodak Motion Picture office. In Stockholm I would try one of the production houses or movie industry suppliers.
Also check with Kodak Motion Picture Division in Rochester, New York and they can probably advice you as to who in Europe would stock and sell the 5222/Double XX. Minimum quantity is 400 ft (123 meters), but the price in Canada/US is around $130-140/400 ft so it is actually very well priced.
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Old 01-13-2008   #13
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Is this the motion-equivalent to PlusX or to TriX?

What Ei did you use for those pictures?
The mustang is a classic!
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Old 01-14-2008   #14
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This is Kodaks Motion Picture Divisons product. The XX is rated at 250 asa in daylight and 200 in tungsten. The Plus X is rated at 80 asa in daylight (I usually shoot it at 100 as it has a fair bit of latitude) and 64asa in tungsten.
The Double XX/5222 can be used at 400 asa, but I find that it can block up the shadows a bit. I usually shoot this stuff without meter and "guesstimate" the exposure, so it probably goes between 200 and 320, but XX has a fair bit of latitude, particularly in the highlights.
It responds well to classic formulas Metol/Hydroquinone like D 76/Adox. Not as well to Rodinal and some of the modern mixes. It works very well with two bath developers like split D76/Td 201/ Pyro based developers and D 23.
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Old 01-14-2008   #15
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I see, DoubleX is what comes between x and XXX
thanks
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Old 01-14-2008   #16
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Tom,

I've been thinking about souping some of this 5222 in PMK+, which is Metol/Pyro, with a tiny shot of Amidol, which is supposed to add about 1/2 stop to base film speed, we will see.

I've just found five pounds of Sodium Sulphite down in my basement darkroom, wife brought home the 20 Mule Team from the grocery. So I'm ready to mix up some of the Adox, and replenisher. I really need to buy a tank that holds four or five reels, I have a presently two reel, and eight reel, Nikkor SS tanks. Need something in-between.
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Old 01-14-2008   #17
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The PMK is a nice developer, but the "khaki" colored negs scan badly! They do print well though. If you are mixing Pyro, be careful. It is quite toxic in solid form. Once it is suspended in the water it is OK, but use a mask and be outside when you mix it up!
The Adox turned out quite nice, very "solid" negatives, lots of detail. Grain is marginally finer than D 76/FX 37 but mid tones look better.
I had hoped to have another batch to do today, but ended up having coffee with a couple of friends and none of them looked interesting enough to waste a whole roll on! Supposedly tomorrow the sun will come out and I can finish the three rolls that are sitting in the M2's and do another batch in Adox.
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Old 01-14-2008   #18
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Tom: The XX/Adox shots you posted on flickr look really good.
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Old 01-14-2008   #19
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After reading this I went to do some mouse-reading.
I found references to XX in the darkroom databook and in the Lester and morgan Photo-LabIndex.
It said that it is a 200 speed film for general uise, fine grain and medium resolution. I found development recommendations in HC110 and others. If interested I'll copy them here tonight
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Old 01-15-2008   #20
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The references you have are probably for the "old" version of XX. Kodak reconfigured the emulsion in the mid 90's. Not much changes with the sensitivity and latitude of the film, but the base and coating was modernized. It probably wont change the charactersitics of the film, but things like absorbtion of developer can affect it.
I tried the XX in HC 110 and it works fine (1:60/11 min), but the Adox MQ looks better and gives me a true 250 asa. The latitude is such that you can shoot it without meter and as long as you are guessing within +/- a stop (200-400 asa) you get a printable neg. Not as flexible as the old Verichrome Pan, but then nothing is!
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Old 01-15-2008   #21
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True, my "newest" guid is from 1974 and shows XX in sheet format only
Anyway it sayd D76 12 min
HC110 (B) 9 min

Cheers!
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Old 01-17-2008   #22
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I just rolled another 30 rolls of XX to use. I should have a chance to get out this weekend and shoot some. I also have a 400 ft roll of Plus x movie stock that I haven't open yet. It will be interesting to try it with Toms idea of 100 ASA and using the Adox developer.

I have a new camera to try a 1957 2a Kiev FSU. I think this year is in the sweet spot for Kiev's. It's closer to being a Contax than the later models. I got it from a person in Denmark for a reasonable amount and it seems quiet nice. The shutter is quieter than my M6 and that is something.


From Cloudy Washington

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Old 01-17-2008   #23
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This talk of XX is a VERY bad thing. Making picture taking slightly more difficult is always fun !

A simple D-76 variant-of-a-variant is D-89:

metol 3g
sulfite 100g
borax 5g
pot bromide 1/2 g

Originally calling for Pinacryptol Green, a desensitizer and anti-foggant,
potassium bromide is readily available and works fine.

The difference between this and Kodak's packaged D-76 is slightly less base fog,
due to the bromide. The formula is re-jiggered to compensate for the bromide,
and HQ is unnecessary, so left out.

Use the same times and dilutions as packaged D-76. Or D-96.
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Old 01-17-2008   #24
Tom A
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The D 89 formula sounds interesting. I did try something like that years ago and as I am running short of HQ at the moment I might give it another go.
Just did a 2nd run of Adox/XX. I did cut the time 30 sec (6,5 min) just to see what it did. A bit "darker" than the previous run, but still holds shadow detail well.
I am going to use up the current batch of Adox (another 25-30 rolls) just to see if there is a change in processing quality as it is being used.
I am also keen to try it with the Td 201 (Steve Anchell "The Film developing Cookbook) as I got very good results with Tri X and that combination last year. Of course, each developer combination requires at least 20-30 rolls to establish so even though I am shooting 2-3 rolls a day it will take some time.
The split D 76 is also good with XX. If you cut the Sodium Sulphite by 30% you get better grain and sharpness. The penalty is slightly longer times in the B-bath.
Oh, then there is the D 96 - a bit softer than D76, but great mid-tones too. So many developers, so many rolls and so little time!
Part of this is also a "Sunny f16" project. Shoot everything without using a meter in camera or handheld.
Downloaded another 30+ shots on Flickr today from the second batch of Adox/XX.
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Old 01-17-2008   #25
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How much water does that D-89 formula call for?

I've been working up to the idea of loading movie film, a la barnack, for some time. I haven't been able to find any reliable source of short ends so I went straight to the horse's mouth, as it were.

Current U.S. prices, And Kodak stock #'s!
Black & White negative, 35mm film.
5222 (Double X)
173 7279 $127.68 400'
198 2511 $319.20 1000'

5231 (Plus X)
167 7723 $127.68 400'
111 6417 $319.20 1000'
That works out to (roughly) 32 cents/ft, for either length in either emulsion.
or $1.75 for a roll of 36. (@5.5 feet according to my '61 Leica manual.)
which makes (at least) 72 rolls/400' or 180 rolls/1000'

Compare to:
Plus-X
$4.99 135-36 (90 cents/ft)
$42.95 100' (43 cents/ft or $2.36/36 roll)

HP5
$3.99 135-36 (72 cents/ft)
$39.85 100' (40 cents/ft or $2.19/36 roll)
Wow. That's the first time I've run the numbers, and what a surprise.
...Suddenly it's even more appealing. That's a lot of film, but that will just make me get out and use it!
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D89, revised
Old 01-18-2008   #26
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D89, revised

" running short of HQ at the moment " = The Mother of Invention !


Kodak D-89, as revised by Ryuji Suzuki

metol 3.0g
sodium sulfite (anh) 100 g
borax (decahydrate) 5.0g
potassium bromide 0.5g of
water to make 1 liter


My notes:

1. It is indistinguishable to me from D-76, but with less base fog. (I think !)
2. For sheet film, I use D-89 ( and D-76 ) straight.
3. For 35mm, I like the results of 1+2 dilution. (Goldilocks' balance between too soft, and too sharp ... just right )
Doubling your normal development time, and agitating once per minute may work for you.

Packaged D-76 will probably last longer in solution.

Good Luck !
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Old 01-19-2008   #27
Tom A
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I recommend the 400ft spools of XX or Plus X. As there are no daylight loaders available, you have to load in total darkness and 400 ft of film coiling on the table is bad enough - 1000ft is a LOT.
I tend to load the whole spool in one sitting and then have a month or month and a half worth of "shooting" stock. This way you forget the misery of loading and just enjoy the shooting part!
The Plus X is an interesting emulsion too. Years ago I used the movie stock version of it and it is quite remarkable for its tonal range. Kodak rates it at 80 in daylight, but it has enough latitude to make 100 usable and in a pinch 125. Somewhere in my files there are some negs from this, done in D 23 - almost large format type of mid-tone latitude.
With the D23 you do get a bit more base fog (I usually add some benzotriazole to it -10ml of 1% solution/1000ml and that does help). Grain is fine though a bit mushed up because of the Sodium Sulphite. Initial try I would recommend 6 min with 3 turns/60 sec.
I only have 400 ft of the Plus X in the freezer, but I will order another 2000 ft for the summer as well as top up my XX stock this spring.
At the moment Vancouver is having one of its truly dreary January days, about [email protected] with XX and rain to boot!
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Old 01-19-2008   #28
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M2 & I went shooting today, and it's a bright sun 1/250 f8 (and 5.6) XX day here in Ohio. NO METER. Finished off my first roll with the Rapidwinder, and Im thinking it's going to be a great experience, because I've actually been carrying it around all week with me, and using it.

Anyway, my first roll of XX is in the can (as they say out in Hollywood). M2 and I then went shopping at the local photo-fleamarket stores in my area. I ended up with a vintage Honeywell Nikor 5-reel tank w/rod, two Patterson graduates, extra Patterson safelight bulb, and two new plastic litre Kalt darkroom bottles, to mix the D-96 and D-96 Replenisher (I"m going to start with that) with XX.

Now, if I can find the little weight set for my graduated balance, I'll be in business with this project.

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Old 01-21-2008   #29
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Hi All,

Just ordered 400' of Eastman Plus-X Negative Film 5231, directly from Eastman Kodak in NYC. Cost a total of $144.30 ($127.68 + $8.00UPS +$8.62 tax).


http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/pr.../bw/5231.jhtml



Contact Info:
Kodak Cinema & Television
360 W 31st St
New York, NY 10001

212-631-3400
800-621-FILM

So, Now I will have 35mm XX and Plus-X Motion Picture film for awhile.

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Old 01-21-2008   #30
Tom A
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Dan, let me know how the +X works out. I am still waiting for spring and summer before I load up mine. This no meter shooting with anything but TriX does tax the brain a bit. After 35 rolls of XX I ma getting it with the 250 asa, but slower than that will give me a hadache!
As you know by know, large quantitie of film loaded up and a M2 is highly addictive.
Are you going to post naything soon?
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Old 01-21-2008   #31
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Tom, I'm also looking forward to using the +X, as the weather warms up. Today in Ohio it is 10 degrees F, too cold for me to do much outside, although it's clear and [email protected] today.

One of my goals for 2008 is to get my dry darkroom up and running. I've always been a wet printer.
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Old 01-21-2008   #32
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Just "souped" another five rolls of XX in Adox. This time I added 30 sec to the time (7min 30 sec) just to see what it looks like. Just looking at the film hanging to dry - looks a bit "dense" but I will try to scan some stuff tomorrow from it.
Just started this project of shooting 8-10 rolls with a M2, a 35f1.4 Summilux (Pre Asph) in anticipation of the new Nokton 35f1,4 MC/SC that should arrive in February. Weather is promised to be sunny for the next 2-3 days so f16 over filmspeed will be applied.
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Old 01-22-2008   #33
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Just posted another 25 frames from the last batch of XX. This time I did run it for 7.5 minutes instead of 7. A bit "sharper" contrast. Worked with some shots, but I think I stick with the 7min time.
The grain is a bit more defined with the longer time, but it is not objectionable. Will be inteersting to try it with either Beutler or Rodinal a bit later. Probably 1:50 for 10-11 min. Exagerated sharpness and sharper grain structure.
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Old 01-22-2008   #34
Nokton48
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I'm just up and out of my basement darkroom, mixed up 1000ml of Leo's Adox MQ Borax developer, and 1000ml of the Adox MQ Borax replenisher. That's enough to get me started with a two-reel tank (hope to soup my first two rolls of XX tommorrow) if I can pull another roll through the M2, or maybe four rolls in my new five-reel Nikor tank. Next time I'll mix a gallon of the developer, if I like it. It's tough to get out shooting right now, since I work during the week, and it's dark when I leave! Do you guys like the Adox MQ Borax with the +X, as well?

Tom I love the new M2, got quite a nice "photo buzz" using it Saturday, streetshooting with the new Rapidwinder it's flawlessly smooth. And I like eyeballing the exposures 8-)
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Old 01-22-2008   #35
Tom A
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Dan. I would recommend just making up 2000ml of the Adox and a 1000ml replenisher. By the time you have used up the replenisher (at 20ml/roll) you will have run 50 rolls through the Adox Stock and you be surprised how much crap has accumulated in it by then. You can filter it, but I suggest that you only do 50 rolls in one batch and then remix. Even though the Adox is quite stable, you will have some reactions in it over a couple of weeks and it is a cheap soup to start with.
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Old 01-22-2008   #36
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Here's a question for those who've already bought this film. How large are the 400' cans? I have limited amounts of fridge space.
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Old 01-22-2008   #37
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The two 400' film cans I have are about 7 1/2" wide by 1 1/2" high.

They are about twice as wide as a 100' can. I split the 400' rolls in my darkroom to smaller sizes, and fill up some extra left over 100' cans so I can use them in my bulk film loader. I think Tom loads his film in the dark by hand.

Leo
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Old 01-22-2008   #38
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Ok....I stumbled on this thread and Iam game for bulk loading. But my question is...that I know very little about "Double X" or XX. What ASA ? Also Plus X has been made in so many versions. The later one I did not care for.

I shoot both ADOX CHS and Efke brands. But my perfered developer is XTOL My next question is where do I get the reels and cans for converting the 400ft down to rolls of 100ft ?? So all advice is welcome. Best Regards.....Laurance
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Old 01-22-2008   #39
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What are your thoughts on 5222 and Xtol?
Has anyone tried that combo?
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Old 01-23-2008   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larmarv916
Ok....I stumbled on this thread and Iam game for bulk loading. But my question is...that I know very little about "Double X" or XX. What ASA ? Also Plus X has been made in so many versions. The later one I did not care for.
Both of the emulsions we've been talking about in this thread (XX 5222 and Plus X 5231) are motion picture films. The official ASA's according to the Kodak datasheets (Daylight/Tungsten):

80/64 for the PlusX
250/200 for XX

Also according to the datasheets, 5231 has less resolving power than the still-photography Plus-X (ASA 125)

Quote:
I shoot both ADOX CHS and Efke brands. But my perfered developer is XTOL My next question is where do I get the reels and cans for converting the 400ft down to rolls of 100ft ?? So all advice is welcome. Best Regards.....Laurance
If you've shot any bulk film before, you can use the leftover cans. Otherwise I'd suggest poking around the well-known auction site, I've seen plenty empty cans there. You won't need any special reels, because you load standard cassettes. After that step, it's just like shooting and developing film from the store.

Because these films were intended as motion picture films, they have more limited reccomended developers. Hence the more esoteric recipes we've been bandying about. Unfortunately, XTOL is not among the official data, nor does anyone seem to have played around with it on their own.(yet) The 5222 can be developed with plain old D-76, which can be found at any serious photographic store, or many places online.

But if you're serious enough to be loading 400' of bulk film, you may want to do your own ASA/Developing tests. You'll certainly have plenty of film to play with!
If you do decide to go this route, you can always brag to your photo buddies about how "serious" you take your photography. But always remember to have fun!
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