Leica M4 or Leica M4-2?

[normclarke]

Hi All,
Having used both the M4 and M4-2 I found little difference between them. The main disadvantage for me with the M4P would be that the finder in the later models frame lines show a smaller field. It is quite noticeable when compareing the 50mm frames(one on each eye). I had a late model M4-2 so may have been lucky in that it performed perfectly, unlike some experiences listed here. I must add that the M4 from a fondlers point of view is unbeatable.

Cheers,

normclarke.

[Simon Larbalestier]

I use both and find them very much the same in feel, when in actual use - however for aesthetics certainly the M4 is very classic with it's Lecia script. I also prefer the simpler frame-lines of 35/50/90/135 compared to the later models.

[Xmas]

The M4 has nicer script, the M4-2 will need PVC tape to cover up the terrible writing, no mugger is going to steal an M4-2 unless you cover it in black tape so it might be a M6 or M7...

A leiciavit and a M4-2 make a nice pair...

Noel

P.S. You can use the full field of view with a M2 or M4-2 or M4 for 28mm.

[Tom A]

The M4-2 is a good camera, but some of the earlier ones had problem with "shutter" bounce. If you pick one up today. it most likely has been fixed. The M4 is a classic, but they are all getting on in age. The advantage of the M2/M4-2/M4P and M6 is that the finders can be fixed and the mechanics are the same.
I have found that on the later M4P's and early M6, apart from having a zinc diecast top-plate ( it doesn't dent, it cracks!), the rewind knob can easily be bent out of shape and it is very difficult to straighten it out. On the M4 and the earlier M4P's it was still brass and more malleable than the cast ones.
They are all good "shooting" cameras and after a CLA (clean,lube and adjust) they should last for a couple of more decades.
Most of the chrome M4's went to non-pro's and they usually took some care of them. The black paint M4's are worn and might need expensive service to replace advance gear. Brass is smooth, but it also wears faster than the later steel gears. The "harshest" M I ever used was a pair of MP's in the 60's. The hardened steel gears felt like they were chrushing rocks! The smoothest M i have is a dead heat between a couple of M2's and the latest version, the MP. Both will click and advance like stroking silk!

[xayraa33]

In 1978 my new M4-2 did have curtain bounce which I noticed on my first developed film roll.
the camera was sent back to Midland, where the brake was adjusted and then sent back to me.
after this, the M4-2 was as trouble free as any other M Leica that I used.
these early M4-2s had the bonus of the M4 style mount and release button , and the flare free rf of the older Ms.
I guess Leitz was using up any remaining parts from the previous run of Midland black chrome M4s.

[edodo]

I would say that if you're in for a black and stealthy camera go for the M4-2 or M4P and get rid of the red dot! I have a M4 and it is an absolute beauty, but it is not black. I wanted to paint it black, but after a conversation with Peter at CRR Luton, I realize it wasn't possible for me. Still the M4 is brass geared and is smooth like lady's skin.
Cheers

[kevin m]

It comes down to money. If you don't mind spending the extra $400 or so that an M4 will get over an M4-2 in the same condition, and the full engraving and classic looks appeal to you, then do it. But the M4-2 gets an underserved bad rap. The bad ones have likely been sorted out by now, and it has beautiful, 35/135, 50, 90 framelines and vulcanite. It's certainly a nicer camera to use than the M4-P if you like clear, uncluttered framelines. Considering that the M4-2 can be had in nice shape for $600, I'd say it's a bargain in the Leica world.

[xayraa33]

Originally Posted by kevin m

It comes down to money. If you don't mind spending the extra $400 or so that an M4 will get over an M4-2 in the same condition, and the full engraving and classic looks appeal to you, then do it. But the M4-2 gets an underserved bad rap. The bad ones have likely been sorted out by now, and it has beautiful, 35/135, 50, 90 framelines and vulcanite. It's certainly a nicer camera to use than the M4-P if you like clear, uncluttered framelines. Considering that the M4-2 can be had in nice shape for $600, I'd say it's a bargain in the Leica world.

shhhhhhh, do not say that last sentence too loud.

[colyn]

I've used both and prefer the M4.

[Beemermark]

The M4-2's had a lot of problems. I had one 20 years ago, spent a fortune on repairing it twice and got rid of it. You need to ask a leica repair person about all the issues. I'd never buy another one. The M4's (and M3's) were the best built M's of all the models. That's the reason the price stays up there. Pick up an M4 and wind it, pick up a M4-2 and wind it, you'll notice the difference right off. The M4-P supposely corrected all the problems of the M4-2.

M4's with user cosmetics are selling for $700~800 in the US. Get a CLA for $100 and it's a way better camera than anything else without a meter. I bought an M6 when they came out and ended up selling it and keeping my M4 & M4R meter. Recently I bought an M7 and like it a lot.

[colyn]

Originally Posted by Beemermark

Get a CLA for $100 and it's a way better camera than anything else without a meter.

Who does a CLA for $100?

I currently have a M3 at DAG for CLA and the charge is $290..

[jshelly]

Just to pile on here,

I'm selling my 5D and buying a BGN M4 from KEH along with an EX+ rigid 50mm cron.

Now the long wait for the mail...

[rogue_designer]

Originally Posted by colyn

He'll never touch another one of my cameras..

Not to derail the thread, but why is that? I've heard generally good things about him. Especially for the older leicas.

[colyn]

Originally Posted by rogue_designer

Not to derail the thread, but why is that? I've heard generally good things about him. Especially for the older leicas.

I once sent him a camera for a CLA. He claimed the rf was in need of a complete stripdown and re-silver/re-cement (which was not true). When I told him not to repair it he kept the camera for 9 months.

Through all of this he was extremely rude..

[NB23]

Originally Posted by colyn

I once sent him a camera for a CLA. He claimed the rf was in need of a complete stripdown and re-silver/re-cement (which was not true). When I told him not to repair it he kept the camera for 9 months.

Through all of this he was extremely rude..

He's been so great with me, I just hve to counterbalance what you are saying.
He's CLA'd Two M3 cameras and fixed a totally blacked out finder. Both times we did business, he shipped my cameras back to me BEFORE I even paid him for te jobs.

[jcr]

I had both, and while having both, I used them interchangeably. With both side by side, I always preferred the build of the M4, and the feel, the M4-P is definitely inferior in this regard. However, both take great pics, but I sold the M4-P when my M6 TTL came back. Not because it was bad, but I kept the one I felt I was more comfortable with. M4-P is much cheaper.

Now I am left with just an M7, my favorite of all film Ms. Not the same build as the legends, quirky too, probably looked down on by many, but what the heck, it serves my purpose best.

And yes, I love my Hasselbad too, it complements the Leicas, pound for pound among the best in their respective categories.

[roundg]

I had my M3 CLAed in DAG, professional work. I have no experience with Mr. Ye, but once I wrote to him to ask whether he could do a CLA for my Summaron 35. He replied quickly and said that he doesn't work much on lens and recommended me to send the lens to DAG.

From the email, I thought Mr. Ye is an honest person, at least not money-driven.

[JimG]

[quote=colyn]Who does a CLA for $100?

KEH will do an M for $145

Weren't the early M4's brass?

[colyn]

Originally Posted by JimG

Weren't the early M4's brass?

I thought all of the original M4's were brass..

[JimG]

Originally Posted by colyn

I thought all of the original M4's were brass..

Maybe it was some of the early M2's or M4P's that were also brass. I'm sure somebody here will know.

[xayraa33]

the later production M4- P with the flush mounted front vf window were suppose to be the first of the zinc bodied M's.

[JimG]

Joseph! I should have known you would have the information. I'm going check my M4P when it comes back from DAG. I'll look for the flush mounted vf window.

[mabelsound]

I'm pretty sure most of the M4-Ps are brass. FWIW, I am new to the P and have only put a couple of rolls through mine, but it feels as solid as my M2 did, plus 75mm framelines, my new favorite focal length.

[MCTuomey]

Originally Posted by Beemermark

Pick up an M4 and wind it, pick up a M4-2 and wind it, you'll notice the difference right off.

M4's with user cosmetics are selling for $700~800 in the US. Get a CLA for $100 and it's a way better camera than anything else without a meter.

I disagree on both points. A properly maintained M4-2 will be as smooth as you could want, very minorly different from the M2/3/4 bodies. And finding a user M4 and getting it CLA'd for $800-900, all-in, would be exceptional. I think the norm for an M4 would be $200-300 higher, maybe more (including a proper CLA that isn't just lubing gears). Clean M4-2 bodies are going for around $650-700.

Since either body will shoot pretty much the same (meterless, same FLs), I suggest your decision should be made on the condition of the camera. It's much more important to find one from a reputable seller that is as well-maintained and free of problems as possible. Let the condition of the camera guide your choice.

[Pikapig]

Is the Viewfinder the same as a M2?