Leica M4 or Leica M4-2?

[anaanda]

Hi ALL,
I have been out of the RF game for a while shooting with my Hasselblad, but looking to pick up Leica. I've decided on one one these. The M4 or the M4-2.What are your thoughts? I know the M4 is more expensive but is it really a better camera is the question I am asking?

Thanks

[dpetrzelka]

Any reason not to go with an M4-P?

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by dpetrzelka

Any reason not to go with an M4-P?

The best reason I can think of to not get an M4-P is the cluttered VF with a bunch of unnecessary (IMO frames). I don't need the 28, 75, or 135 frames, so I prefer the much more unclutter VF of the earlier Ms.

[einolu]

I just got a m4-2 for $650 and it was in pretty good condition, though I am going to add another $100 to that for a CLA because the camera doesn't wind too smoothly. A m4 is would probably cost you $800 and would also need a CLA. The m4 might be better built but I can attest to the viewfinder of the m4-2 being very bright, which is what matters for me, and the camera feels very solid in my hands, so I am satisfied.

[Xmas]

The later M2s will have the depth of field cut out and unless you spend all of your shooting with a 135mm or a winder you dont need more.

The M4 is a maintenance mans camera, the M4-2 a build to tolerance, but the M4-2 will be cheaper.

Noel

[Valerius]

I have both M4 and M4-P and mostly prefer the M4, maybe because this was my first M-body. Regarding your question which one to choose thats a matter of personal taste.

Regards,

Per

[darkprints]

Originally Posted by Kyle

I got a perfect working BGN M4 from KEH for $780. I went ahead and sent it to Youxin Ye for a CLA anyways. $80 later it came back better than before.

Last time I checked there was still a BGN M4 on KEH...

I'm curious about KEH's "bargain" grade cameras - are they usually dented/dinged?

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by darkprints

I'm curious about KEH's "bargain" grade cameras - are they usually dented/dinged?

Some have gotten bargain cameras and claimed they would classified as "mint" on ebay. My M4 has a dent and lots of bright marks and scratches, but as I said it worked great and the finder is bright!

[adep]

My bargain M2 has bright marks and a ding near the viewfinder, but is mechanically sound. Also, and unfortunately, the original M2 viewfinder had been replaced with an M6 (I think) viewfinder.

[HuubL]

I have two M4's and love them. No experience with the later M4-2 or P, but it is said that the brass innards of the original M4 make it operate smoother. I don't know if the M4-2 and M4-P have the same viewfinder as the M6. Of the 6 it is said it flares.

[ferider]

Late M4-Ps have the same top plate (zinc) as the M6. All M4Ps and M6 cameras have the same viewfinder, including
28mm framelines. M4-2 has no 28mm framelines.

I own two M6 bodies, an M2 and M3 (latter two recently CLA'ed). M2 and M3 are great, but the brass vs. zinc
is highly over-rated, IMO ...

It's a personal choice - best help to decide which body you like best is to try one out. Also depends on which lenses
you like ...

Roland.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by adep

My bargain M2 has bright marks and a ding near the viewfinder, but is mechanically sound. Also, and unfortunately, the original M2 viewfinder had been replaced with an M6 (I think) viewfinder.

No, the M4 has the original viewfinder design, which is more resistant to flare, and has 35, 50, 90, 135 framelines. It also has the beautiful engraved top plate - classic!

http://www.cameraquest.com/mguide.htm#M4's

"A lot of people, myself included, consider the M4 to be the last classic standard production M. The M4 generally maintains the finish and feel of the M3/M2's craftsmanship while still having significant new improvements: finder brightlines for 35/50/90/135 lenses, much faster film loading, much faster rewinding with a new rewind lever, and a self resetting film counter which resets every time you remove the bottom plate. The M4 finder was basically a M2 finder, with the 135 paired with 35 frame. The M4 has ALWAYS BEEN one of the best and most popular M's. Only 58,000 M4's were made, compared to 225,000 M3's and 83,000 M2's. This helps keep the M4 prices up. While made primarily in chrome, both black paint and black chrome versions were produced. The M4 became the basis of the later M4-2, M4-P, M6, M6 .85, and M6 TTL. The M4 finder can be changed to the later 28/35/50/75/90/135 finder system of the M6 as a standard Leica upgrade. Personally, I prefer the M4 finder as it is, less cluttered. If you love your M4, about the only change to it I would recommend is to add a hot shoe next time you give it a CLA (clean, lubricate, adjust)."

[Todd.Hanz]

honestly, they'll both take pictures and last forever if treated with a modicum of care.

To me the M4 is classic, a great camera but the framelines only go to 35mm on the wide side, if you have need for 28mm framelines then get an M4-P (listen to dpetrzelka and wildwildwes).

If it were me and both cameras were in the same condition, I would buy the one that meets my frameline needs at the lowest cost, then sink my money into some sweet Leica glass.

In the end most people could give a rats ass which light tight box you stick your Summilux asph. onto anyway , repeat after me...it's all about the glass, it's all about the glass

good luck,
Todd

[back alley]

excuse me todd, but there should be an apostrophe between the t and s in rat's ass.

joe

[xayraa33]

I have used both the M4 and the M4-2, there is little difference between the two models.
the M 4-2 is still a bargain price wise and I hope this will continue for a few more years, so maybe we really should keep "the M4 is vastly better " myth alive.

[dreamsandart]

(My M4-2 story) After having used Leicas for many years I was very happy to get my first new M-series, an M4-2. Wow!, motor, black chrome... I was a bit surprised when I opened the box and took out the camera and found the rangefinder window had not been glued into place and did a sliding open-close thing. An easy fix, but over the time I had that camera it was one problem after another, not all the time, but enough that I wouldn't take this camera on a trip as my only camera. This was a late serial number which is said to not have the beginning production start-up problems. Maybe it was a Friday/Monday camera, or maybe I was just unlucky. There is one well known Leica repair specialist that has written them off in general, 'too hard to get in tolerance and too hard to keep that way.'

Yes, some M4-2 are fine and they are going at low prices, but I wouldn't take a chance on another myself.

On the other hand... Leica M4s are my favorite classic M-series. I've been using them since the early 70s and they are both dependable (once a good CLA has been done) and beautifully made. Prices have come down so there are bargains out there. If you are really trying to save money on a classic Leica, M2s are a great deal now.

[maitrestanley]

Originally Posted by Todd.Hanz

repeat after me...it's all about the glass, it's all about the glass

It is! but most of us interact and build a relationship with the body more than with the lens.

I wouldn't exactly be taking 1 lens and 6 bodies on a trip just so I can switch the bodies around

[Todd.Hanz]

Originally Posted by back alley

excuse me todd, but there should be an apostrophe between the t and s in rat's ass.

joe

thanks for pointing that out, I was just so excited to fit the phrase "rat's ass" into a sentence that my fingers must have fumbled

Todd

[dpetrzelka]

It's all about the glass...

(and if you find an M4-P at a good price, its a solid body that will hold a piece of glass as good as any other M body, and a great choice if you might be using a 28mm lens)

[anaanda]

thanks for all the responces..

[JNewell]

Originally Posted by Kyle

Some have gotten bargain cameras and claimed they would classified as "mint" on ebay. My M4 has a dent and lots of bright marks and scratches, but as I said it worked great and the finder is bright!

What Kyle writes is definitely true, but "BGN" grade covers a lot of ground and it is possible to get a body that really looks, well, like it's been through the wars...maybe it has. And, even higher grade RFs can arrive with hazy finders, so there is some element of chance. One suggestion: the KEH staff will pull a camera from the warehouse and give you a personal eyeballing of the camera (their eyeballs, not yours) over the phone and will email pictures, so you can get some sense of what's up. That and their 14 day no questions asked return period make purchases pretty much risk free (you only risk is round trip S&H).

[SolaresLarrave]

About "bargain" grade from KEH, I recently had the chance to examine Ken Ford's M3, a "bargain" grade camera from them.

It was pristine...

Granted, Ken feels the film advance is a bit grainy... and it is, but not so that you won't use the camera. It actually feels like it may soften up with a little use.

In other words, you may luck out with a "bargain" Leica that's an eBay "mint" (as someone wrote above).

And... if you're not happy, you can always return it.

BTW, one Leica body I'd like to have is, precisely, the M4-P or the M4-2. For some reason they get a bad rap, but I only get good vibes from these ones.

Have fun shopping!

[x-ray]

I've owned both M4 and M4-2 plus the M4-P. Nothing wrong with any of them but given a choice I would pick the M4 because it was the peak of M quality with the modern loading feature. Really any M is fine but after the M4 Leica cut corners in the RF/VF and some other components.

[davidbivins]

I use both. I prefer the M4s for minor reasons: self-timer (much handier than I realized once I was stuck with the M4-2 in a situation where it would have been handy) and lack of engraving on the front. Yes, people are mugged in Brooklyn for their Leicas. I bought the M4-2 primarily because it's black, secondarily because it had been upgraded with M6 framelines (I wanted the 28mm so I wouldn't have to attach a finder). Superficial, I know, but a black camera and black lens are a bit less obtrusive than a chrome-topped camera. I use my two M4s and single M4-2 regularly. I keep different film in each and can just grab the most appropriate body for what I'm shooting.
For what it's worth, the wind lever plastic thingy popped off my M4-2 quite quickly into our relationship. It's been fine since I fixed it, but that's never happened with my M4s.
I think the M4-2 is a good deal. I probably would have bought one first if a decent one had been available when I decided to splurge on an M body. I ended up with two M4s first instead, the M4-2 later.

[Rico]

If you believe a camera is just a light-tight box, I say: God bless you, and here's your M4-2! Other cameras on my shelf have their strengths, but only the M4 can make me smile like a fool.