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Old 05-31-2005   #81
BAPIEMAI
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I suppose it all depends where you live. In Greece crime rates are not so high for people to demand to have handguns so those that do are the Rambo types. As far as hunting goes you can get any hunting rifle and shotgun and you can even purchase shells for hunting wild boar (they can cut a man in two theses shells).

Hunters are totally different but there are two categories. There are those who love nature and hunt for sport but ALWAYS respect the hunting laws and kill only what they will eat. These guys you cannot tell them apart from Greenpeace, they repsect the prey they do not torture it and will not eradicate a whole ecosystem for fun.

But there are also types who shoot down eagles. What kind of pervert you have to be to kill an eagle ?

Maybe I have strong opinion because I know guns, I know people who use them and I have used them. I have witnessed som very bad accidents involving sniper rifles and 7.62 rounds (the guys scalp was blown off but after two weeks in a comma he came out fine)
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Old 05-31-2005   #82
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There are always exceptions but here in the UK before the effective ban, the firearms laws were always very strict. Anyone applying for a Section 1 license which was any firearm other than a shotgun or air weapon under a certain power had to be a club member and be positively vetted by the Police to get a license.

In order to stay in the County Squad and the Police Team I would be either practicing or taking part in competitions 4 or 5 days a week, very much like any other sport at a higher level.

Since the ban on firearms in the UK, the incidence of gun related crime has increased dramatically. So now the villains have firearms and the peace loving sportsmen do not.

As Roger said it was "anti-gun hysteria"
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Old 05-31-2005   #83
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Angry

My experience with hunters was quite scary. Those guys can be quite dangerous, if it happens to you to meet them unwillingy in the woods. I was with my young son (4 years old then) picking up some mushrooms (edible of course) and those bloody hunters were surrounding the area full of wild animals, and
scaring those poor beings ****less, and I didn't know that we two (me and my kid) were in that same hunting area. There was no warning that hunting is going on, nothing... I saw some deers running like mad through the woods, but I didn't suspect anything is wrong... And then, after some time, I saw that strange and powerful animal, wild boar, very excited, criss-crossing in my direction. I just grab my kid under my arm, when scared beast stopped around 3 meters before me, and I run for life with my child in my arms, but animal also turned other way and probably did the same as I was doing..., running to some safe place...

I thanked to the stars for good luck, because if that beast had been wounded, I just didn't want to think about the consequences of such an event.
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Old 05-31-2005   #84
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The only experience I have with hunting as I live in the country side are those that use shotguns or horse and hounds. The ones I have met have always been friendly but I've never hunted myself unless you count fishing, never seen the point as we have many wonderful butchers shops for food.
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Old 05-31-2005   #85
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The idea of eating your prey is about respect to nature. You don't kill for sport you kill as a hunter only what you need as the first humans did. Of course you don't need that to survive in modern times but they way it is done it causes no harm to the ecosystem. In Greece when hunting for wild boar you don't kill everything in your path you just hunt for one and after that it's over. It is no more unethical as going to the butcher's.
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Old 05-31-2005   #86
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I see nothing unethical in hunting and have no objections to those that do. I'm just not into hunting myself.
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Old 05-31-2005   #87
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I'm not into it either because I don't like guns. I prefer to 'hunt' lizards and other bugs with macro lens, now that takes skill.
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Old 05-31-2005   #88
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LOL Good point as a Street Shooter I guess I am a Hunter after all
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Old 05-31-2005   #89
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Unhappy

I agree with you BAPIEMAI. I admire hunters that go after their prey like Indians in Northern America did, but those modern hunters of our time, they come on the scene in their luxurious 4x4 SUVs, surround as much area of the wood as possible with the help of a packs of hunting dogs, and then those great wild animals like deers, bears, wild boars, lynxes, wolves, etc... are mercilessly slaughtered from the safe distance of course... In my country, the profile of a hunter that I have met is more or less fat, lazy and rather drunk soulless creature. And there is not so low a figure of collateral damage (wounded or dead humans), caused by these madmen,...
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Old 05-31-2005   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruenhilde
... In my country, the profile of a hunter that I have met is more or less fat, lazy and rather drunk soulless creature....
Maybe in your country you could hunt the hunters?
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Old 05-31-2005   #91
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I guess morons are everywhere. How the hell can we trust guys like that with guns. But I suppose guns replece sex to these fellows, what they cannot do to their wifes they do to animals.

The bad thing is that legitamate hunters are blamed too, just like with street photographer these days who cannot shoot kids because tey branded as perverts
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Old 05-31-2005   #92
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TPPhotog,

Of course, I don't believe that all hunters in my country are such *******s as I depicted them. But, from my experience, I could not say much good about them. They do shoot (protected by law) eagles (perverts), they do shoot protected species of animals in our mountains, like chamois and ibexes... But I am speaking only from my experience, and I did see them in action, and I did see the consequences --> dozen or more killed young deers, in winter hills (I am an avid mountain hiker), when there was 1m of snow, and those poor animals were more or less helpless,... I did see their ugly (hidden) "bloodthirsty-drunken-triggerhappy" face, other (public or newspaper) face is all "friendly-somber-eco-green" of course.

But, sometimes, yes, sometimes even one of them got a bullet from their comrade... Friendly fire I guess....

I am also some sort of a hunter, but only when using my macro equipment. And only flowers and plants are not too fast for my clumsy hand But this is RFF forum, my macro is all SLR...
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Old 05-31-2005   #93
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Bruenhilde, no worries I didn't think you were inferring that they are all the same Happily in the UK we usually (not always depending on the persons views) differentiate between hunters and poachers. Sadly there will always be those that have no morals and/or break the rules, happily they are a minority for the present or we would have anarchy.

Also sadly the hysteria in the UK is targeted towards pictures of children these days and it is getting more risky taking street shots. The media has effectively labeled all photographers taking pictures of children with the blanket feeling that we must be up to something un-natural. HCB and other icons would turn in their grave.
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Old 05-31-2005   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flinor
Anyone who has ever advanced the film on a Leica M3 and then cocked the hammer on a Colt Python will understand the similarity of precision products designed and engineered for a single purpose.
You are absolutely correct. Both are very crisp and clean in their mechanical workings. Wish I had not sold the Python many years ago.

Bob
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Old 05-31-2005   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAPIEMAI
Actually I used to be a special forces sniper a few years ago and it has really helped me to shoot handheld in low light situations. Other than that I hate guns, I think owning a gun is a sign of weakness (no offence intended to anyone). For self defence I prefer my hands (I'd like to see someone try to take my leica when I get one)
............................................
If you are a trained SF soldier, "using your hands" is great. If you are an elderly person, a small woman or the average untrained person is attacked by a street thug, the ability to protect him/herself is small if they don't have a legally trained weapon.
Here is the USA it is legal to carry a pistol in most states, and those that have carry permits very rarely use guns illegally.
Daily street crime is why we own firearms, not to protect against tanks and soldiers.
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Old 05-31-2005   #96
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I lived in England between 1981 and 1987. I belonged to the "Viking Pistol Club" at Wickham Market, Suffolk County. I had a Firearms Permit and owned three handguns with which I shot competition in Smallbore (.22), Centerfire Revolver and Centerfire Pistol. I often shot on the Suffolk County Pistol Team in competitions from Great Yarmouth to just North of London. I still have all three handguns.

The so-called "Hungerford Massacre" happened not many months before I came back to the States and it didn't take long for the anti-gun faction in England to get legislation introducted in Parliment to remove most guns from the hands of private British Subjects. I'll long remember the conversation that I had with one of the Richardson Brothers at their gun shop in Halesworth. He said "Well, the new legislation won't hurt us as all we sell are shotguns and air rifles." I told him that I was sorry to disagree but that the anti-gun people wouldn't be satisfied until every gun of every kind was outlawed. He didn't believe me.

The pity is that every gun owner that I knew or met in England was aware of the consequences of misusing a gun and were possibly the most responsible, law-abiding people I've known. They didn't deserve their fate and it will be the everlasting shame of every MP who voted for the legislation that they wronged so many fine people....... better people than the average by far, IMO.

Walker

Quote:
Originally Posted by TPPhotog
There are always exceptions but here in the UK before the effective ban, the firearms laws were always very strict. Anyone applying for a Section 1 license which was any firearm other than a shotgun or air weapon under a certain power had to be a club member and be positively vetted by the Police to get a license.

In order to stay in the County Squad and the Police Team I would be either practicing or taking part in competitions 4 or 5 days a week, very much like any other sport at a higher level.

Since the ban on firearms in the UK, the incidence of gun related crime has increased dramatically. So now the villains have firearms and the peace loving sportsmen do not.

As Roger said it was "anti-gun hysteria"
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Old 05-31-2005   #97
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When I started shooting pistols over 30 years ago in Canada and it was then legal to own a machine gun as it was a class of restricted firearm that had to be registered. I watched as a series of progressively more draconian gun regulations were passed over the years. First to go was the legally owned machine guns and the hunters and trap and skeet shooters did not care. Then they slowly cut down on the type of handgun you could legally own and the aforementioned groups did not care. The light finally came on after you had to register all firearms and the whining started. It took 30 years and they got what they wanted. From my point of view it is a billion dollar pacifier to stick in the general public's collective mouth to calm the anti-gun hysteria. That money could have been better spent on our public health care sytem. We are no safer today. This trend is also happened in Australia, the USA and England at the same time. To get back on topic, I am glad I had the chance to learn to shoot firearms as the techniques used apply very well to camera shooting.

Bob
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Old 05-31-2005   #98
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Nikon Bob,
In the USA there is one major stumbling block for the anti-gun hysteria, the National Rifle Association. Despite being demonized by the media, the NRA fights legally for honest gun ownership by target shooters, hunters, collectors and trains thousands of policeman and soldiers as well.
Every time I hear the anti-gun crowd say, "Guns are only used to kill people", I wonder what the 200+ USA Olympic Shooters team members are winning medals for - LOL.
I'm proud to be an NRA Life member.
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Old 05-31-2005   #99
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@ nwcanonman

I am NOT against the ownership of guns I just say that owning one makes you even more vulnerable.

If it was legal in Greece to own handguns I probably would have one in my closet but I am well trained to use it in self defence (and offence) but I wouldn't carry it with me outdoors.

You said that law abiding citizens like elders should carry guns for self defence. Do you think a guy with no military training can defend himself against a thug who uses a gun for a living ?
If you stick a gun to my face I could kill you with my hands before you can squeeze that trigger BUT if something like that happens I'll just give you my money because the risk is not worth it and furthermore I don't want to kill a thief.

The fact is that all of us 'normal' citizens have never been in a life/death situation but probably the criminals have, so even if we do make a move against them they do have the upper hand and most probably will end up dead as well as empty pocketed.

I for myself have been trained but have never seen real combat, in a firefight with an armed thug I think I would lose.
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Old 06-01-2005   #100
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LOL - the only life/death situation most criminals get into is when they attack an armed citizen. Most criminals are (A) Lazy and (B) Cowards.
If they see someone walking with confidence and another who exudes fear, the criminal will pick on the fearful one knowing he won't put up any resistance.
As an emergency services worker, I've been shot at, but never had to point my gun at another human being. But I'd have no problem defending my life if it should ever become absolutely neseccary.
BTW- most armed thugs do not practice shooting, they're lucky to just scare their victims, and only hit them at contact distance (a meter away).
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Old 06-01-2005   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doubs43
..... The pity is that every gun owner that I knew or met in England was aware of the consequences of misusing a gun and were possibly the most responsible, law-abiding people I've known. They didn't deserve their fate and it will be the everlasting shame of every MP who voted for the legislation that they wronged so many fine people....... better people than the average by far, IMO.

Walker
Walker I completely agree with you. I used to visit several clubs and I don't think I ever met a person in one of those clubs I didn't like. There were some that I disagreed with of course, but everyone was responsible and law-abiding.
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Old 06-01-2005   #102
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I'm right with BAPIEMAI on this one -- NO-ONE should be allowed to handle firearms without firearms training: Floridian geriatrics and Rambos of any age are unlikely to be able to defend themselves effectively without training, which almost no-one ever takes. Guns for self defence, for most people, are a worthless fantasy. Statistically, having a gun in the house makes it MUCH likelier you will be shot, at least in the USA.

This is because a staggering percentage of US gun-owners have absolutely no idea what they are doing with the guns they buy. More than once I have walked out of gun shops because I have been frightened by the cretins in them -- like the guy who walked into an Alabama gunshop I patronize; laid a pistol on the counter, barrel pointing at the shop assistant's gut; and said, "I had a hang fire and it's jammed. What should I do?" The man behind the counter hastily pointed it in a safe direction...

The phrase 'well regulated' in 'well regulated militia' is completely ignored by the NRA, and indeed the constitution is regularly flouted: if a militia is indeed the constitutional excuse for owning firearms, the one gun you cannot ban is the auto/semi auto switchable 'assault rifle'. Pistols, shotguns and everything else are arguably NOT covered by this amendment.

I am not anti-gun: I am pro-gun. I have experience of firearms ownership; I lived in California for 5 years; I own guns (which are stored in California); and my wife is a US citizen who has been shooting since she was big enough to hold a gun. But I do believe in gun control, and I am not very sure that I believe in guns for 'personal defense'.

I have never pointed a gun at anyone, because I was always told that you never point a gun at anyone unless you entertain the possibility of firing it. I have only looked down the muzzle of a gun that was pointed at me once: he was a Vietnam vet, at the time (this was many years ago) still in the Marines: I was 16 or 17 years old. The muzzle did, indeed, look like the mouth of the Blackwall Tunnel. I believe (with BAPIEMAI) that a frightening number of gun owners suffer from SWS (Small Willy Syndrome) but I am still enough of a libertarian to believe that this is not a convincing argument for banning guns completely.

Cheers,

Roger
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Old 06-01-2005   #103
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Well said Roger.

Bob
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Old 06-01-2005   #104
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I am not a gun owner, but my ex-brother in law was really into target shooting, and at one time I participated with him in shooting metal targets with one of his pistols, and turns out I was a really good shot. I think the training of holding a camera steady for a long exposure helped that out quite a bit. So the same skill sets may be applicable.
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Old 06-01-2005   #105
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Quote:
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.... So the same skill sets may be applicable.
I 100% agree
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Old 07-04-2005   #106
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Used to be a enthusiastic handgunner.
All handguns were outlawed in the UK a few years ago.
Bummer.
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Old 08-04-2005   #107
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A friend of mine once remarked that I, obviously, was "into" black artifacts. Bakelite telephones, vintage typewriters, camera's. And firearms. I no longer have the telephones and typewriters (lack of storage space), but I am both a photography and shooting enthusiast. Luckily, I have a wife who also enjoys both hobbies...

The cameras and guns we own are based on technology that has virtually remained unchanged for many decades. With a 40-year old camera or rifle, it is possible to still get better (or aesthetically more pleasing) results than with any "modern" (brand new) one. It all depends on the shooter. Quite unlike, say, computers, which are hopelessly outdated and useless within a few years, no matter how proficient the man or woman behind it.

As for shooting, we both very much enjoy Dynamic Service Rifle and static target shooting with military rifles. We own two SIG rifles (a 550 and a 510-4), and two Heckler & Koch rifles (a G3 and a HK51). One of these days, I will shoot some nice wide aperture "portraits" of them on 25 ASA B&W film...
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Old 08-04-2005   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimL
Used to be a enthusiastic handgunner.
All handguns were outlawed in the UK a few years ago.
Bummer.
Yep one of the few things in the UK we can win Olympic medals at and they ban it. Still I suppose we have dominoes until they discover it can cause RSI
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Old 08-04-2005   #109
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the differences may be cultural (im a brit living currently in germany), but i have to admit im having my problems with this discussion.
im an ex soldier and have handled firearms proffesionaly, but i fail to see why anybody would want to keep assault weapons at home.
anybody who eats meat really shouldnt have a problem with hunting for food and
ok, i can see the mechanical analogy, but i have to wonder at the motivation of somebody who needs to keep these things at home - particularly if theyre not used for gathering meat.
just my opinion, and i dont want to offend knowing how the passion for this subject sometimes flares on the other side of the pond, but isnt it obvious that if every person has a hand gun, the potential for shootings is somewhat higher than if theyre banned?
perhaps its just that those who have grown up in such a culture cant believe that there is any other way, and at this point the comments about limp wristed liberal politicians come in.
im not saying that in societies without ready access to guns that there is no gun crime, that would be inherrently silly, what i am saying is that it is possible to live and look after yourself in a gun free country.
im happy to shoot and be able to reproduce my victim from a negative :-)

paul
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Old 08-04-2005   #110
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Paul,
I'm 100% with you on this - but I guess that's one of those cultural US vs. Europe things - here everybody owning a firearm is considered a wacko, if not a criminal, there it is quite normal (and the crime rates there - the US prove you right...). Better not even to touch that subject with a long stick...

Roman
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Old 08-05-2005   #111
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Paul,

Define "assault weapon" for us.

Contrary to what some folks think, assault weapons are not readily available here in the USA. We are allowed to own the semi-auto version of the AK-47, M16, G3, etc. but not full the auto versions. And, contrary to what many may think, they function no differently than the old Remington Model 8 semi-auto hunting rifle that's been around since shortly after the turn of the last century. They look a little different but their function is the same, magazine fed and one shot with each pull of the trigger.

Some would classify the M14 and M16 semi-auto version as an assault weapon, but they are not. So what use would anyone have for either? Well they happen to be the two consistent winners in the very popular target rifle shooting sport here known as NRA High-Power Competition. In fact our USA National High-power Target Championships are just finishing up at Camp Perry Ohio. And if you were there, you'd see hundreds of them in use in three position paper target shooting, targets no different than those used in the UK Full-Bore matches.

Also, the states here in the USA with the highest crime rates are those with the strictest firearms laws, so Roman's analogy isn't quite correct. And I notice that violent and firearms crime in the UK and Australia have heavily increased since their (near outright) firearms bans have been in place in both countries.

I live in the state of Idaho, a state with very few firearms laws, and lots of firearm owners. We also have the right to carry firearms concealed (after applying for a permit), yet we have one of the lowest crime rates in the USA.

As has been said, "An armed society is a polite society."

My 2 cents worth from this side of the pond.

Regards,

Don
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Old 08-05-2005   #112
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Don,
You are 100% correct. Great job!
Those who own single shot black-powder guns, but think it's OK to ban semi-auto firearms should think about what's next on the list of gun-grabbers. It's not about public safety, it's about keeping all firearms out of the publics hands.
I, too, have studied this subject for over 40 years.
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Old 08-05-2005   #113
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I would have to agree with Don on this. I am an army reservist and target shooter here in Singapore and I feel that the local gun law is really too strict for shooting enthusiast. With proper precautions like trigger lock, gun safe and background check it should be not a problem to keep firearms at home. Semi-auto rifles are not assault weapon by conventional weapon classification. Shooting at full auto in fact is more harmless than a trained markman with a semi-auto AR 15 as the recoil from the automatic weapon will result in excessive muzzle climb. The very fact that the person sitting beside you could be armed automatically will increase your awareness to your surroundings and also your manners! It is illogical and naive to rely your personal and family's safety the overworked law enforcement officers.
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Old 08-05-2005   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks
I'm right with BAPIEMAI on this one -- Guns for self defence, for most people, are a worthless fantasy. Statistically, having a gun in the house makes it MUCH likelier you will be shot, at least in the USA.

Cheers,

Roger
Roger,

While I agree with much of what you say with regards to people taking firearms training, I have to disagree with your statement above. It is pure and simple anti-gun Brady Campaign nonsense with no basis in fact. I doubt you can find any impartial statistics to support that claim. What has been statistically proven is that firearms are used in the USA hundreds of thousands of times each year to prevent crime (most without ever firing a shot).

I recommend a visit to Professor John Lott's web page: http://www.johnrlott.com/
Professor Lott started out as an anti-gun type who began a study to support your above statement with a statistical basis in fact. What he found was just the opposite, and he was gentleman enough to publish his findings even though they were contrary to his original perception.

Regards,

Don
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Old 08-05-2005   #115
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Paul,
Just where is this "gun free country"?
Yes, you can pass laws keeping law abiding citizens from owning firearms, but you'll never keep criminals from stealing/making/importing them. No country on this planet is "gun-free", so when you make that decision to not let honest citizens own firearms you put them all at the mercy of the dishonest ones.
It's also against the law to make bombs and blow up innocent people, but we see how well that protects everyone. I'm not saying that bombs should be legal, I'm saying passing laws doesn't make this a safer world, only eternal vigilance by ALL citizens can do that.
Maybe taking pictures of suspicious characters will make them more nervous of being caught - just bring us back to photography ~; - )
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Old 08-05-2005   #116
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like i hinted, i suspect its cultural and the right to own a firearm is more important to some than actually owning one.
on the point of my reference to assault weapons, id think that any automatic or semi-automatic rifle which has been designed and for military use would fall into that category, or would there be any reason to attach a bayonet for target shooting or hunting.
it looks like a seemingly harmless post has disturbed the proverbial hornets nest and i certainly dont want to cause any offence with my comments as i am aware that the critisism some of you may have had to weather probably makes it a bit of a sore subject.
i would ask though that you try to understand that not believing in guns in every house, doesnt equate immediately to weakness or fear.
its more than likely that if id grown up where some of you did, id think differently. of course there is no such thing as a gun free country and i perhaps misused the phrase, but if armed crime isnt a widespread problem, you dont think you have to arm yourself against the next psycho who rings your doorbell.
not an easy one this, and i suspect theres going to no ultimate consensus of opinion.
cant we just get back to photography?

paul
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Old 08-05-2005   #117
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Paul,

I don't think anyone is going to flame you. This is one of the most polite and civil forums on the net. I certainly respect your thoughts and opinions, and especially your right to express them. It would be a boring world if everyone thought the same way I do.

As for getting back to photography, I agree. But the title of this thread is photography and shooting enthusiasts.

I'm a long range target rifle shooter, love Leica and rangefinder cameras (but have been dabbling in digital recently with a Pentax *ist DS), have been deep into the rebuild of my Porsche 914, and enjoy riding my Harley Davidson motorcycle. I also have a permit to carry a concealed weapon, but I very rarely do. I also have 20 years of US Army service behind me. Not that any of that means anything here, just thought I'd throw it out.

Best regards,
Don
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Old 08-05-2005   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwcanonman
Paul,
It's also against the law to make bombs and blow up innocent people, but we see how well that protects everyone. I'm not saying that bombs should be legal, I'm saying passing laws doesn't make this a safer world, only eternal vigilance by ALL citizens can do that.)
NW Canonman,

Very well put! I just wish more folks would understand that simply passing laws only works with the already law abiding citizens.

Best regards,
Don
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Old 08-05-2005   #119
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Paul,
To my knowledge, there's never been a crime committed by a bayonet-mounted rifle. So, WHY would we waste time, money and pass laws against it?
If someone enjoys collecting true military rifles, why infringe on that colllector? Our country's traffic speed laws are mostly 60 miles per hour, yet we import 10,000's of vehicles that can go 2 or 3 times that speed. Why? Far more people are killed by speeding vehicles than all firearms, yet no one suggests banning fast cars, we ask the DRIVERS to be more cautious. There is nothing inherently dangerous about that lump of steel, the gun; it's the human holding it that needs to exercise control.
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Old 08-05-2005   #120
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youre absolutely right of course, i supose the difference is whether the power of control is in the hands of the people or the government. and that really is a tough one to answer from within any individual society.

moving swiftly back to some earlier points, ive also found that the principles of shooting helps with those slow shutter shots. i think it is easy to compare the process / sequence of shooting and er shooting.

paul
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